ColourSpace CMS - Next Generation Calibration... Thread - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 09:38 AM
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Can I have a look at your bcs, please? I'd also need your Klein preset matrix. Thanks.

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post #422 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 10:24 AM
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In the klein is it the factory cal file you are looking after or the matrix i used during the profile?

Cant upload the bcs file here
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Lightspace HTP,Colourspace HTP,Klein K-10A,I1pro2,Murideo 6G gen2.

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post #423 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
Did a new 21^3 characterisation with correct drift colour 0.1 sec stab and zero extra delay,outcome was very good (a few outside dE 3)....
dE ITP
Saw that dE 2000 is more commonly used when perform results of 1000p verify

Your profiling process sounds like mine, made also almost all possible faults and learned in that way...however I got good briefing by Ted
I made also mine profile with black drift compensation
Going to make new dark/bright profiles at next weekend.
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post #424 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 12:11 PM
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Learning by doing it was a long time since i used lightspace as well and now the new colourspace so i have forgotten almost all small (but important) settings,but i will be there (sooner or later) i hope
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post #425 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 03:28 PM
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We ALL learn by doing and have excellent, helpful people to guide us. Every mistake is an opportunity to learn and get better results. God knows I made MANY of them the first weekend I spent with this software, and Liberator72 and Ted helped me a LOT! Keep at it, fix things as you find them, and you will end up with stunningly awesome results.

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post #426 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
In the klein is it the factory cal file you are looking after or the matrix i used during the profile?

Cant upload the bcs file here

Please enlighten me on how you got that nice dark theme for ColorSpace? Is it obvious and I’m just missing something, or are you using some custom windows theme. Thanks.
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post #427 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AKJohnny View Post
Please enlighten me on how you got that nice dark theme for ColorSpace? Is it obvious and I’m just missing something, or are you using some custom windows theme. Thanks.
I don't believe that's ColourSpace, but the Klein app.
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post #428 of 488 Old 05-18-2020, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
I don't believe that's ColourSpace, but the Klein app.
You're right. My mistake. I should be asking chros73 from a few posts back. He has a nice dark theme somehow. Thanks.

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post #429 of 488 Old 05-19-2020, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKJohnny View Post
You're right. My mistake. I should be asking chros73 from a few posts back. He has a nice dark theme somehow. Thanks.
Yes, it's Win10 Arc X theme from deviantart (read the instruction carefully ).
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post #430 of 488 Old 05-19-2020, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
In a 1000 point verification there aren't many dark patches so it is unlikely to be probe limitation.
Yes, I don't think so eaither, let alone my monitor has 0.1 (!) black level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Email me the profile, and the LUT you generated and uploaded into madVR.
Thanks Steve for the offer, probably I'll create a quick (10 cube) another one during the night (previously it was created during sunny daytime) just to be sure (if I'll have time).

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post #431 of 488 Old 05-19-2020, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Yes, it's Win10 Arc X theme from deviantart (read the instruction carefully ).
We will be adding 'Dark Theme' capability to ColourSpace.
Nice to see someone found a way to get to it before us!

Steve

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post #432 of 488 Old 05-19-2020, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
We ALL learn by doing and have excellent, helpful people to guide us. Every mistake is an opportunity to learn and get better results. God knows I made MANY of them the first weekend I spent with this software, and Liberator72 and Ted helped me a LOT! Keep at it, fix things as you find them, and you will end up with stunningly awesome results.

What is best one can always reset the colour back factory settings and start all over again. No harm done.


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post #433 of 488 Old 05-23-2020, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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ColourSpace Beta 1.0.0.584 (23 May 2020)

Release Notes

Increased Preset csv file patch limit to 256.

Stopped info columns in Manage Spaces moving around randomly.

Preset csv patch list always shows associated colour name (if in csv file).

Internal patch window now needs to be explicitly activated before profiling, if needed.

Removed flashing values in Manual Measure during automated profiling.

Change to handling for invalid out of gamut probe readings.

Added Colour tools to LUT Adjustment.

Added initial detection for .csv lists based on Quick Profiles.

(Some Quick Profile formats may not be detected correctly – working on it).

Improved operation of Presets in Manual Measure.

Increased profiling speed for same exact combinations/settings as previously.

(Users will need to verify if Extra Delay is needed on displays with signal path delay).

Added Undo/Redo to ‘Apply To Existing LUT’ in LUT Generation.

Changed 'Add to LUT...' options to ‘Apply to existing LUT’ in LUT Generation.

Altered dE ITP graphing to match the values (no additional divider used).

Corrected dE values not updating when Target colour space changed.

Added patch countdown to characterisation progress bar.

Changed default Drift patch colour to 240 for new installations.

Added DIP Mode operation.

Changed operation of the RGB/HSL Bars Widget for better manual calibration.

Additional change to GUI for Lumagen options.

Added Stabilisation Patch capability to Pre-roll.

Fixed random crash when Point Info box open during profiling.

Download Link or Feedback Form here. (the password is known to Beta Testers)

Installation Notes

ColourSpace Installer will completely overwrite any previously installed version, not just update it.

It will not require from the users to un-install older releases before installing a newer version.

Update Notes

While ColourSpace is working in beta, when the users will start ColourSpace, it will not pop-up notification to inform for the availability of newer beta.

However, I will update this thread but also refresh the form page with release notes text per each beta.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration S/W: LightSpace ZRO / HCFR
S/W: ColourSpace INF, LightSpace XTP, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, ChromaPure
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box P/G: Murideo Six-G, DVDO AVLab TPG
Meter: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A

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post #434 of 488 Old 05-23-2020, 06:56 PM
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Thank you, Ted. That is quite a long list of improvements.
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post #435 of 488 Old 05-24-2020, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, Ted. That is quite a long list of improvements.
Hi Vishwa,

The ColourSpace development team is resolving/fixing the reported issues instantly.

For example, with ColourSpace Alpha, we had a new build available every day.
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post #436 of 488 Old 05-25-2020, 09:11 AM
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Does anyone know a good source of reference images for use within LS / CS when evaluating the effectiveness of a LUT?

Regards, Mike.

Just an LG OLED65E9 - might add more in future.................
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post #437 of 488 Old 05-25-2020, 09:59 AM
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^^^Ted's calibration disc. Or watch some content you've seen many times, looking for artifacts. For me, it's the scene from "Superman The Movie" when Superman catches the cat burglar and delivers him to the policeman. It has lots of highlights and shadows, both muted and highly saturated colors, etc.

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post #438 of 488 Old 05-25-2020, 11:19 AM
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Known content is always great but Ted's disc is invaluable to any home calibrator. Just my opinion after using it many times before and after. I do have DVDO AVlab but I still use Ted's disc just to verify.
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post #439 of 488 Old 05-25-2020, 04:00 PM
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^^^Ted's calibration disc.
Curious what patterns you like to use for visual LUT verification?

Andrew
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post #440 of 488 Old 05-25-2020, 05:50 PM
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Curious what patterns you like to use for visual LUT verification?
I generally use familiar content. His disc has numerous evaluation patterns. See his website at displaycalibrations.com.
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post #441 of 488 Old 05-25-2020, 08:49 PM
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From Light Illusion web page you can download more color ramp pictures (Calibration Images) if not have Ted´s disk.

Here is screenshot from R Masciolas disk (when it was free), this kind of pictures could be also helpful to quick preview affect of LUT.
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post #442 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 05:39 AM
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Good news for owners of 2019 LG OLED's that use ColourSpace/LightSpace. You can now easily and freely (manually) calibrate Dolby Vision/HDR using the built in iTPG of the TV controlled directly by ColourSpace/LightSpace with the latest version of the Device Control Template for 2019 LG OLED's.

Whilst the procedure is extremely simple, it cannot of course be validated after without the use of an external DV compatible TPG. This is due to the placement of the iTPG in the image pipeline. But I have managed to verify with externally generated Dolby Vision patterns (both over HDMI and USB) that if done correctly, then the conversion from 2.2 Gamma to PQ EOTF is correct and valid.

Whilst it is a fully manual adjustment of the 22 point white balance controls of the LG User Menu, with the use of ColourSpace it is extremely simple do to the updated user interface and the ability to load custom csv patch sets within the Manual Measure window. It can also be done within LightSpace but it is unfortunately a little more difficult due to the way you have to dip in and out of various menus, and manually adjust the RGB sliders to line up with the LG's internal 22 point white balance controls.

As always, the base starting point is taken from the Pre Calibrated Service Menu WB as it gives a good foundation for all to be calibrated from. Then, using the latest version of Device Control Template for the 2019 LG OLED, you can connect to your TV and enable the iTPG whilst playing some Dolby Vision content in the background, and connect to the iTPG with ColourSpace using the Network Server.

You then load a preset csv containing the triplets that align with the LG 22 point user controls and take a greyscale sweep targeting 2.2 Gamma. From there you can manually adjust the 22p greyscale by simply selecting each individual patch in turn and making the required adjustments from the TV user menu to eventually end up with with something like this


Tracking of 2.2 Gamma


And RGB Balance

Once complete, you can then measure Black, RGBW (with a preset csv) to record these values



Using these recorded values, you can "manually" edit a DV Config file to contain your peak white, black and primary coordinates, and upload this to the TV via a USB thumb drive.

After conformation that the DV Config (CFG) has been applied, then DV calibration is complete. As stated, you cannot validate it without the use of an external DV TPG, but I have and can confirm that it does convert correctly


This is PQ tracking using an external DV TPG over HDMI measuring 20 point GS


And this is PQ tracking using R.Masciola's DV test patterns (20 point GS) from USB

For HDR, things are even more simple. All that is required for HDR is to simply once again use the Pre Calibrated SM WB as a starting point, and either adjust 2 Point High in the user menu (using a 65% grey patch) or 2 Point Low/High (using 20/70% patches). If required, then you can use the 10 point or 22 point user controls to tweak Code Value 1023, but it really isn't necessary.

LG uses 10 bit Full Range Code Values for it's user menu White Balance controls, and these are mainly clustered between (approximately) 16% - 70%. Any significant or large adjustments to these points one way or the other can introduce image issues. It is easier and safer to adjust just the couple of points suggested because the TV already tracks 2.2 Gamma very closely in HDR and RGB Balance is equally already pretty good.

The factory 3x3 CMS Matrix is also already very good, so colour management adjustments are not required. But, using the Device Control 2019 LG OLED PQ Curve Template you can upload your peak luminance and custom tone curves if you wish. This has been available for quite some time though so many will already be familiar with doing this.

I have been running these calibrated modes on my LG OLED 65C9 now for several weeks testing in all kinds of various content and have to say it is looking very good indeed. UHD HDR Blu-Ray with many types of metadata (all the way to the 10,000 nit Inferno disk) looks stunning, as do UHD Dolby Vision disks (Spiderman FFH, Black Panther). Streaming content (Netflix, Apple TV App, Amazon Prime etc...) is just as impressive. It just works!

Furthermore, there is no raised/crushed blacks in HDR as no custom 1D LUT has been used, and I see no raised blacks (with the exception of the known ATV 4K) with DV disks from my Panasonic UB820 over HDMI or any of the built in DV capable apps. And there is no black clipping with either R.Masciola’s Black Clipping patterns or Stacey Spears Dynamic Range Low pattern that was kindly provided to the community recently to troubleshoot Dolby Vision black level clipping after AutoCAL when played over USB.

All in all, it may be going back to manual calibration of these two modes but ColourSpace makes it all so easy and it is the absolute best I can get out of my TV in these modes. Best of all it is a free DV/HDR TPG that can be controlled automatically from both ColourSpace and LightSpace.

To be able to activate the iTPG to control via ColourSpace/LightSpace, you will need the latest version of Device Control and LG 2019 Template Rev.4. To find out how to get this you will need to contact @ConnecTEDDD via his website where he will provide you with instructions. He will also be able to provide you with a zip file package that contains the preset csv files I have created, along with slightly more detailed instructions and other files that may be of some use.

Before anyone asks, all of this currently applies to the 2019 LG iTPG capable TV's only. I do not have access to a 2020 model LG so cannot test, and as the 2018 models have no built in iTPG it will never apply to those sets.

Sorry for the long winded post, but hopefully it will be of use to some of you!

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post #443 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 06:09 AM
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@liberator72

Looks like a very helpful result!
Are R.Masciola's DV patterns over disc or USB connected to your specific player matching exactly (bit accurate), so a user with that setup could also run his/her system verification that way (RGB vs. YCbCr)?

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post #444 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
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@liberator72

Looks like a very helpful result!
Are R.Masciola's DV patterns over disc or USB connected to your specific player matching exactly (bit accurate), so a user with that setup could also run his/her system verification that way (RGB vs. YCbCr)?
R.Masciola's USB patterns were via USB directly into the LG C9 USB input. The Panasonic UB820 does not support DV files over USB, only content from disk. R.Masicola's files are digital only so are not available to disk and until the S&M Benchmark disk update is released, I'm not sure there are currently any DV patterns available on disk format.

The point is, the iTPG is accurate when the correct triplets are sent to control it. So as long as the adjustments you make to 2.2 Gamma is done correctly, the conversion from 2.2 Gamma to PQ EOTF is spot on, and that was the purpose of showing the two different types of validation. It was already well known that this conversion is done correctly (it would be a travesty if not as it is a relatively simple conversion).
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post #445 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 06:54 AM
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@liberator72 , If you have an external TPG or test patterns for HDR and DV, your process will work fine on the 2020 LG OLEDs. I haven't checked the Device Control tone mapping template but i don't think anything has changed so it should work. It should also work in the 2018 LG OLEDs as well since we used a similar process when those sets first came out.

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post #446 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 06:55 AM
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iTPG with LS /CS, just awesome bonus
What for I need CalMAN to struggle with bugs and empty promises when you can do same things with properly working software with real customer service, helpful community and no annual fees to get new upcoming features and support.
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post #447 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
@liberator72 , If you have an external TPG or test patterns for HDR and DV, your process will work fine on the 2020 LG OLEDs.
You're missing the point. If someone has an external TPG that is DV/HDR compatible, absolutely none of what I have posted is relevant at all is it?

The entire point is up until now, without such astronomically expensive equipment (some of which costs more than the TV) there was no viable way to do Dolby Vision outside of a specific software. My whole post is to do with using the iTPG of the 2019 LG OLED to do this. Sure, you could attempt it with external patterns from USB (such as R.Masciola's files) but you would be combating the tone mapping and other variables. You need to ideally adjust the greyscale in DV Relative Mode to 2.2 Gamma, and as the iTPG is in Gamma space, that's what the iTPG does. This part also applies to HDR too, as when not in gamma space, you need to Enable Calibration to defeat tone mapping, and doing so alters something within the image processing so we don't really want to do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I haven't checked the Device Control tone mapping template but i don't think anything has changed so it should work. It should also work in the 2018 LG OLEDs as well since we used a similar process when those sets first came out.
Sorry, but the 2018 neither has an iTPG to be able to do any of the above, nor the ability to upload custom HDR tone curves. So no, none of it applies to the 2018 LG OLED's and you could never have done any of what my post was attempting to describe, ever. Sure, you could do DV and HDR with an external TPG, but not what I have described above.

With the 2020's I cannot comment as I have not had access to one yet. But, it is said there are differences to the iTPG this year so it may, or may not be possible. Time will tell.

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post #448 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 08:22 AM
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Assuming this (DV and HDR) can eventually be made to work with the internal generator on the 2020 models, is there going to be a need for an external generator (such as Raspberry Pi + software) at all for SDR? Or can SDR cal also be made to talk to the internal generator through Device Control (at least for 2019 models, I understand you don't know yet for 2020 models)? And, if so, would that be a recommended process?

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post #449 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highmr View Post
Assuming this (DV and HDR) can eventually be made to work with the internal generator on the 2020 models, is there going to be a need for an external generator (such as Raspberry Pi + software) at all for SDR? Or can SDR cal also be made to talk to the internal generator through Device Control (at least for 2019 models, I understand you don't know yet for 2020 models)? And, if so, would that be a recommended process?
The iTPG can of course be used for SDR also and is just as effective. So yes, it does essentially negate the need for any form of external generator altogether, but some may still want to use an external pattern source for calibration of the whole signal chain.

To be completely honest, I have absolutely no knowledge of how the iTPG was made to work with Device Control (I am not a developer) but I was fortunate enough to be asked to test it. It just so happens that as I was also doing some of the Alpha testing of ColourSpace I thought I’d give it a go and see what happened.

It’s not that I’m claiming some miracle breakthrough that I’ve discovered, far from it. All I did was take the basic premise of what AutoCAL does and do it manually with the user controls available in the picture menu settings. And, as all you are doing is essentially just making any adjustment to 2.2 Gamma, it is an extremely simple procedure.

Should LG ever fix the broken 1D LUT then it will be even easier, as you can just run a greyscale sweep of the native reset 1D LUT and upload it to both DV and HDR modes. I’ve done this before just using the RPi and a HDFury in HDR with Enable Calibration selected, and applied it to both HDR and DV. But the 1D LUT clips black in Dolby Vision and raises black in HDR. Manual adjustments of the factory 1D LUT suffers no such issues.

Anyway, I have since been told that connection to the 2020 LG’s should indeed work exactly the same, so it’s good news for owners of those sets too.
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post #450 of 488 Old 05-26-2020, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post
Does anyone know a good source of reference images for use within LS / CS when evaluating the effectiveness of a LUT?

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I'm using the demos on Spears and Munsil 4K in addition to Ted's disc.

Last edited by mikela; 05-26-2020 at 11:20 AM.
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