ColourSpace CMS - Next Generation Calibration... Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 89 Old 02-09-2019, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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post #32 of 89 Old 02-09-2019, 12:46 PM
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Little sound (presentation) to that video would be nice explaining what we are seeing and whats god/bad ie what to look for and also what those white targeting arrows means.

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post #33 of 89 Old 02-09-2019, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
Little sound (presentation) to that video would be nice explaining what we are seeing and whats god/bad ie what to look for and also what those white targeting arrows means.
You can see some explanation of the new charts to the examples I have posted at past here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56201380
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post #34 of 89 Old 02-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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I actually didn't both with any descriptions as I genuinely thought everything was self explanatory...
The only chart that maybe is not, is the 'Cube', as that is a normalised plot.
But actually is one of the best graphs to see calibration errors.

So...

Each point is colour coded.
Green is under 1dE.
Orange is 1dE to 2.3dE.
Red over 2.3dE

And the Tangent Lines show the error.
They plot where point should be, from where it actually is.
That way you can easily and quickly see where there are errors, in full volumetric space.

Steve
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post #35 of 89 Old 02-09-2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
We totally disagree with a 'workflows' approach.
They are far too limiting.
We do expect users to have some understanding of calibration, and will do our best to help educate.
It really is something we deeply believe.

Steve
Although the workflows can be limiting if taken as a sequential approach, having a workflow with different layouts that we can access randomly is *very* useful. Even more, being able to design them, especially for the experienced user. And finally, having tabs to save different versions of the same measurements (for example to compare before/after calibration measurements in greyscale or gamut) is even more useful, again especially for the experienced user.

I and others have made suggestions in this area to you for many, many years. Are you saying that there is no improvement to expect regarding this in Colourspace either? I was hoping that this new version would offer a more modern interface, not only more graphs, even if they seem to be very useful. Don't call them workflows or layouts if you're allergic to the words, but please provide this ability, it's much needed and a big downside of Lightspace. Many people use a different tool for pre/post calibration measurements mainly because of this lack in the software.

Pretending that only inexperienced users need workflows means that you don't understand the need of experienced users.

We don't need workflows to tell us what to do and in which order. We need to be able to save measurements in a way that allows instant, almost side by side comparisons, during a calibration session.

I use layouts in another software for measuring contrast, for measuring gamut saturations, for measuring color volume, for measuring greyscale, and I want to compare these measurements easily, without having to load another file or to take screenshots. The fact that I can design my own layouts and decide which data I want to measure and how I want to represent it is a huge benefit. It's a long awaited improvement for Lightspace, it would be disappointing if it didn't make it to Colourspace.

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post #36 of 89 Old 02-09-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
My hopes for a few tweaks in this new SW which slowly bug me about LS, but I live with and accept:

"Traditional" absolute gamma chart with standard scaling showing reference gamma and measured.
Good luck
I tried suggesting that countless times but was told those graphs are for amateurs, and that the graphs currently provided in LS are superior for knowledgeable users - not in those words, but implied
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post #37 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 03:17 AM
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Not sure I really like Dominic's paraphrasing of my replies to him... But, in essence he is right.

We (the Light Illusion team) are not fans of the old school gamma graphs.
The DifGamma graph plots the measured gamma vs the target gamma, which is exactly the required info - is it not?



As can be seen in this image, the measured gamma is the delta from the target.
(This is actually a BT1886 gamma targeted to a power law 2.4 gamma, on a display with a raised black. See: https://www.lightillusion.com/error.html#bt1886_gamma)
I've added in the values so you can see how the graph reads.
If the plotted line overlaps the target line totally it would be exactly the target gamma.
(The target gamma is set by the selected colour space.)

Now, having said that, LightSpace was never intended to be used in the Home Cinema market. Never!
It was thanks to Buzz and Ted that we are here at all...
(Yes, feel free to blame them for everything!)

The whole focus for LightSpace was professional colourists and colour management use in the film & TV industry.
(I am/was a colourist, and developed LightSpace for my own use, as nothing else was available that did what I needed.)

LightSpace is also over 12 years old!
(The first release was Feb 2007, although the first program the could be defined as the start for LightSpace was in 2005!)

What all this means is there are limits as to what LightSpace can be be coaxed into doing some 12 years later...

By comparison, ColourSpace is a baby, with years of growth ahead of it.

The initial release will be limited, because we have to start somewhere.
But...
Those limits are just to enable us to define the start point.
Moving forward we will take ColourSpace to place LightSpace just never could go.

And this time we have developed ColourSpace with the Home Cinema market in mind, as well as our core Film & TV industry.
(We have also been working with some major display manufacturers to make sure ColourSpace has the flexibility they need for display assessment, as well as the likes of Eurofins, and Bureau Veritas - testing companies that define assessment programs to ensure TVs meet minimum standards.)

So with a ground-up development of a totally new product we are free to go where we want, and add whatever tools we want. And Home Cinema will be a big part of this.

A select few (in all our different market industries) have known about the existence of ColourSpace for some years.
(Originally code-named BluePlanet... you can work that out for yourselves!)
And they have been helping make sure the underlying code-base is flexible enough that we do not code ourselves into a corner, as with LightSpace.
(Seriously, LightSpace was never intended to become 12 years old, and was never intended to be used as it is now!)

So, to get back to the original question/point, while we are not fans of the traditional gamma graphs, they will almost certainly find their way into ColourSpace, as there really is no point not having them.
And we will also be adding bar graphs.
And multiple graph layouts.
As well as many more really kool capabilities related to profile data assessment and even manipulation.

This time, the LUT side of ColourSpace in not the real focus, as it is within LightSpace - as that was always what it was developed for. For ColourSpace the focus is more on the profile data, and what can be done with it.

But! Do not expect to see all this in the fist release.
The first release is a baby, and will hardly be crawling, let alone walking!

As we progress with ColourSpace will be happy to hear thoughts and ideas, but not here.
We have our own forums on our website, and as everyone knows I tend to respond quickly to emails.
(But, I will not be responding repeatedly to questions I have already answered.)

The last point is to say that there has not been a recent update release of LightSpace as we have had to make some major core changes to provide as much backwards compatibility with ColourSpace development as possible.
We do not intend to force anyone to swap to ColourSpace, and in all honesty with the first few ColourSpace releases I would suggest that existing LightSpace users would probably be better off staying with LightSpace.

But, that will change as ColourSpace grows.

Steve

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post #38 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
(Seriously, LightSpace was never intended to become 12 years old, and was never intended to be used as it is now!)
Are you saying that the big "advantage" of Lightspace having no maintenance fees was knowingly based on a lie, because you knew over the last few years that the product was build on flaky foundations and had no space to grow, hence only had a limited lifespan?

What exactly is preventing Colourspace from being Lightspace V10, if you wanted to honor the promise of maintenance free software to existing Lightspace users? Products are rebuilt from the ground up all the time. They don't necessarily become a different product, especially when the engine remains the same and only the interface changes.

It's not because Lightspace was overdue a big change, especially interface-wise, that you need to market it as a different product. It is very clear that the main reason is to be able to sell the software again to users who are not providing any repeat income, because they bought an expensive one-off license, that was supposed to cover maintenance fees, only to discover a few years down the line that they have to cough up again to buy a renamed product. In which way is this fair exactly?

Do you plan to do the same with Colourspace, and ask for a high purchase price with no maintenance fees, to scrap it a few years down the line when you launch Monospace or whatever it will be called?

Or do you plan to make the business more sustainable by openly asking for maintenance fees?

I understand that you don't want to reply to questions already answered, but how about answering questions that you are refusing to answer, such as those I asked above?

Improvements to the 3D LUT engine in Colourspace?
Improvements to madVR support in Colourspace?

I'm not getting any answer from you in the Lightspace thread either, and the last answer you gave by email was that you don't commit on future development. Even if it was alienating, I could accept that answer at the time because I didn't know that my investment in Lightspace was a dead end. Now that I'm asked to consider making a new investment in a rebadged product, I'd like to know if what matters to me will be solved in the new software.

Of course I would be more patient if I knew that existing users would be grandfathered into Colourspace, as it would be more fair given the maintenance-free promise we bought into.

I would also be happy to pay again for the product if it had worked for me over the last few years and if I had the confidence that the issues I reported were dealt with swiftly and that the promised maintenance was delivered.

But as neither of this is the case for me, I'd like to know what your intentions are with this new product, and if it's going to provide any improvement in the areas mentioned above.

I'm glad to see that after all these years requesting improvements in the interface some of these are finally going to happen. I'm not happy to see that they are not going to happen in the product I purchased, but in another product I'm being asked to (re)purchase.

By the way you can't use a thread here to announce a new product because the traffic is higher and then ask people to use your forum to ask questions where the traffic is smaller, or to use email when in my experience that leads nowhere. That's not the way it works.

So please could we get a clear commitment regarding improvements in the 3D LUT engine and improvements to MadVR support in Colourspace.

These are questions you haven't answered, by email or otherwise.

Yes or no. Two lines from you, so we can make an informed trade-up decision.

Thank you.

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post #39 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 04:52 AM
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I agree that workflows are for beginners. LightSpace is a powerful tool for 3D LUT and, once you get familiar with the philosophy behind it, it's also really easy to get your job done, not with a pre-packaged workflow but with a procedure based on the different needs related to the preferences of each user and the needs of the display being calibrated.
No, LS is not perfect and it will never be if the user doesn't understand some calibration basic knowledge. The only small "issue" I have with LS is with WP luminance dE calculation, LS takes as reference the Y value measured under "luminance units" (probe options) and not the live Y (the one is being measured while the user is doing the WP RGB balance). It's not an error but I hope that CS is going to give the user an option to choose what he'd like to have as luminance reference. So far I have nothing more to report about my LS experience in LUT creation. Manual calibration is a different story and I'd like to see modules coming in at a certain point (not workflows!). For modules I intend complex commands (eg. "Measure xx GS points", "Measure 20% sweeps color saturation"). Nothing I can't already measure in LS, but I'd like them to be organized in modules for a faster job.

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post #40 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Not sure I really like Dominic's paraphrasing of my replies to him... But, in essence he is right.

We (the Light Illusion team) are not fans of the old school gamma graphs.
The DifGamma graph plots the measured gamma vs the target gamma, which is exactly the required info - is it not?



As can be seen in this image, the measured gamma is the delta from the target.
(This is actually a BT1886 gamma targeted to a power law 2.4 gamma, on a display with a raised black. See: https://www.lightillusion.com/error.html#bt1886_gamma)
I've added in the values so you can see how the graph reads.
If the plotted line overlaps the target line totally it would be exactly the target gamma.
(The target gamma is set by the selected colour space.)
It is an old argument but I think the key points that you seem to miss or perhaps not fully appreciate - perhaps because you're primarily concerned with using the product to actually do calibration, rather than also discuss and compare displays which is something a lot of us do - are that:

1) You were only able to add the values because you knew the target. It's not shown in the graph (and even if you screen captured including the rest of the UI, it only shows the text description of the target colourspace, not the gamma value / curve) so for a Lightspace user trying to communicate the gamma performance of a unit to others they have to add the qualifier that explains what the graph is and what it is referencing to, and maybe even add the numbers because the y axis signing is non-obvious (exactly as you have done in your example). There isn't a graph in LS you can share and explain easily to folk what the gamma is of a unit in terms they'll understand, so you end up having to use other software to do that. Like it or not, as it stands you'll never (well, very rarely) see someone use the LS diff gamma graph in a review or comparison of a bit of gear because folk just won't understand it, and that is actually a shame as I'd like to see LS get more exposure in that way. I've tried at least once in a post on some issues around gamma and folk in this market don't get it.

2) I use Lightspace semi-frequently, but every time I do the signing of the diff gamma chart "gets me"... As it is supposed to be the delta to the target gamma, the signing is arguably incorrect in the numeric sense and at least feels counterintuitive. If the target gamma is 2.4, and the measured gamma is 2.2, then the difference being shown as a line through +0.2 is hard to read if you are thinking about the numbers and selecting a gamma preset - it always seems to me it should really be show as a line through -0.2 (the measured gamma is lower than target). In the diff gamma chart above the line means gamma brighter than target, below the line means gamma darker than target. Arguably it is more intuitive your way if you're looking at it adjusting a slider to change the amount of light at a given point in a 10pt gamma control set.

I don't think there is anything you can really do about this with the current graph as even if you agreed on the signing (which I doubt you would) there would be outcry from folk used to the way it works. Which just makes me think the only thing that would actually work for everyone is to add the "standard" graph and leave the diff gamma graph as "what it is".

I'll post separately in the other thread on the subject of the larger than display gamut as I have tried the suggested LUT concatenation and it doesn't seem to actually do the job for me, which is probably me being dumb.
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post #41 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 05:44 AM
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I have just a couple of comments about the ColorSpace development.
1) Like many others, from the home user perspective, simple (or even complex) workflows are extremely useful in many cases. If LightSpace wants to capture the Home User, Calman has demonstrated that the workflow approach is entirely appropriate.
2) It should be noticed, and applied to ColorSpace development, that even Ted needs to default to Calman's interface to display calibration data in ways that are intuitive, obvious and useful to a wide range of calibrators. The graphic interface of LightSpace data has always been poorly designed and implemented. Simple, trivial aspects such as labeling ordinates and abcissas are ignored ("they are described in the User Manual") suggesting either simple laziness on the part of the developers, or a misunderstanding of the objective of graphs and tables.
3) Combining an intuitive graphics program with workflows and the LightSpace mathematics seems like a winner for the Home User.
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post #42 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 06:06 AM
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Hello,


I have stopped using Calman because of the workflows principle Calman provides. I really prefer LightSpace CMS because it is a tool for calibration allowing to achieve the workflow you have in mind (and to impose it). So I hope ColorSpace CMS will keep the same principle as LightSpace CMS.


What I don't like in Lightspace CMS is the way the graphs are shown. To well understand a graph we should see in one shot (and without searching in a user manual on the web) what is the meaning for the axes used, what is the units, what is the granularity, what is the reference when a comparison is done, etc. Also when there is a graph, it is useful to zoom in or out.


Most important is the 3D approach because we use often more than 2 variables for calibration.
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post #43 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisda1 View Post
2) It should be noticed, and applied to ColorSpace development, that even Ted needs to default to Calman's interface to display calibration data in ways that are intuitive, obvious and useful to a wide range of calibrators. The graphic interface of LightSpace data has always been poorly designed and implemented. Simple, trivial aspects such as labeling ordinates and abcissas are ignored ("they are described in the User Manual") suggesting either simple laziness on the part of the developers, or a misunderstanding of the objective of graphs and tables.
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What I don't like in Lightspace CMS is the way the graphs are shown. To well understand a graph we should see in one shot (and without searching in a user manual on the web) what is the meaning for the axes used, what is the units, what is the granularity, what is the reference when a comparison is done, etc. Also when there is a graph, it is useful to zoom in or out.
The above comments from ellisda1 and alex_t (also bobof and Manni, not quoted) summarize perfectly the general problems with the user interface of LightSpace. Note that people making such comments are not “idiots” (taking the term directly from the LightSpace DPS User Manual ), they are people with good technical backgrounds.

Note, however, I’m not a big fan of workflows, being an HCFR user.
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post #44 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 06:57 AM
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Hello,


I have stopped using Calman because of the workflows principle Calman provides. I really prefer LightSpace CMS because it is a tool for calibration allowing to achieve the workflow you have in mind (and to impose it). So I hope ColorSpace CMS will keep the same principle as LightSpace CMS.


What I don't like in Lightspace CMS is the way the graphs are shown. To well understand a graph we should see in one shot (and without searching in a user manual on the web) what is the meaning for the axes used, what is the units, what is the granularity, what is the reference when a comparison is done, etc. Also when there is a graph, it is useful to zoom in or out.


Most important is the 3D approach because we use often more than 2 variables for calibration.
Also not a fan of fixed work flow, though sometimes these days I'm finding my own work flows I would like to follow in Lightspace are a bit annoyingly convoluted. Hopefully some of those things will be addressed in Colourspace and they're just a result of the current advanced work flows having grown out of the ui. An example is making a custom colour space from a profile extents - I might be being dense (apologies if there is a shortcut) but because some of the windows are modal and block the rest of the UI the only way to achieve this is to copy and paste or write down the relevant xy values out of the manage colour space window, close it, and then enter them into the convert colour space window. That could just be a one click function, or at least the ui could let you have the relevant things on screen and able to copy between the fields.
What I would like would be to be able to do - if multiple windows are able to be used at once - is to save workspaces with the various windows and results in their places that I've put them in. That is the only kind of "work flow" I really want.

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post #46 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 08:33 AM
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Looks really cool in operation. I'm excited about the 3D views.
One thing on the normalised cube view - as the video zoomed in it was easy to lose the context of where in the cube you were as the bolded corner coloured markers zoomed off the edge of the view. Maybe the line along the cube edge (which is currently just shown as a white line it seems) could be a gradient between the corner values to help you keep the visual context of where you are in the cube.
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LightSpace Future

The introduction of ColourSpace will obviously have an impact on LightSpace.

As one of the major reason for the introduction of ColourSpace is to provide a platform for future colour and calibration developments, many of the new capabilities that will be introduced with ColourSpace will not be backwards compatible with LightSpace.

That's not to say that compatible developments will not be added to LightSpace, as the new 'Remote Control' capabilities show, as they will be added to LightSpace.

But, as time progresses, less and less ColourSpace developments will be compatible with LightSpace. And eventually it will just make no sense to continue to develop LightSpace in parallel with ColourSpace.

Quite when that will be is really an unknown, and we will have open discussions about that as the time approaches.

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post #48 of 89 Old 02-10-2019, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
What exactly is preventing Colourspace from being Lightspace V10, if you wanted to honor the promise of maintenance free software to existing Lightspace users? Products are rebuilt from the ground up all the time. They don't necessarily become a different product, especially when the engine remains the same and only the interface changes.
.....
Of course I would be more patient if I knew that existing users would be grandfathered into Colourspace, as it would be more fair given the maintenance-free promise we bought into.
.....
I would also be happy to pay again for the product if it had worked for me over the last few years and if I had the confidence that the issues I reported were dealt with swiftly and that the promised maintenance was delivered.
My sentiments exactly. I am too a LightSpace and a madVR user.

I bought the expensive LightSpace license considering it as a long term investment. And now I am kind of shocked to learn that it is going to be superseded by ColourSpace and that there is no free upgrade for the existing users. This is disappointing .
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I bought the expensive LightSpace license considering it as a long term investment. And now I am kind of shocked to learn that it is going to be superseded by ColourSpace and that there is no free upgrade for the existing users. This is disappointing .
LightSpace is not 'retired', it will continue to get updates, but some features will not be able to be added to LightSpace.

ColorSpace also is not ready for release, its still under development, and there no time-line when it will be ready. This thread is only informative of about what users to expect sometime in the future.

For more details related the upgrade status of current LightSpace users, there info to the ColorSpace - Trade-Up tab in ColorSpace site.

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Hi Ted, this is all fine. But honestly speaking, when I bought my license in September 2017, it was already known to Light Illusion that LightSpace development is going to get stalled. At least some hint should have been given, especially when a product is marketed as maintenance free. I could have easily waited for the new more future proof product to get released. I had no urgency to buy LS then and practically, I have been ending up using Argyll/DisplayCAL LUTs all the time (for several reasons). My only request for native madVR 3DLUT support is just in WIBNI list and there is no ETA on that. Seriously, I cannot appreciate this kind of business practice.
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Hi Ted, this is all fine. But honestly speaking, when I bought my license in September 2017, it was already known to Light Illusion that LightSpace development is going to get stalled. At least some hint should have been given, especially when a product is marketed as maintenance free. I could have easily waited for the new more future proof product to get released. I had no urgency to buy LS then and practically, I have been ending up using Argyll/DisplayCAL LUTs all the time (for several reasons). My only request for native madVR 3DLUT support is just in WIBNI list and there is no ETA on that. Seriously, I cannot appreciate this kind of business practice.
All the ColorSpace info here is just a preview of what it will be released in the future, just its an advanced public preview. LightSpace development is not stopping and there will be still free updates to LightSpace even after ColorSpace will be released also, which is unknown when it will be ready.

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If I'm honest I think that the arguments over the product eventually being retired and replaced with something else are a little bit odd. Nothing should happen to stop your SW working vs the day it is retired, it will still do what it did. Sounds like recent purchasers will have a full credit (which arguably just serving LI really they have to do this to keep selling LS licenses, having announced CS, to prevent sales drying up), and others will get some upgrade discount to a different product. The free updates policy on the website as far as I can see is for features purchased, not a guarantee of new features added.

Even going back to 2016 and probably further the policy was pretty clear; I'm not expecting big new features:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160315...m/support.html

The issue of any bugs, significant shortcomings or glitches in the existing product is a separate one and should be dealt with as such.
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ColorSpace announced now as this was the earliest possible date for that announcement.

Also LightIllusion hasn't mentioned anything for any upgrade cost range, but history show that they are not 'money grabbers'

Any time of the announcement would have been 'wrong' for someone. There is never an ideal time to cover all.

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While scrolling on CS XPT features I see this: ICC Profile Generation, which is warmly welcome for me! As a HTP user myself, I'm sure that will be also listed in HTP features, doesn't it, Steve?

What is being presented here is a huge upgrade, with all due respect to those who say otherwise. Don't forget you pay every new version of Windows, which is not always totally new. In this case, the software has been rewritten from its foundations, hence it is a different thing. If it had the same code base with some extra functionality they could have called it LightSpace 10, but it does not.

As I understand it, initially it will have more or less the same functions and then gradually break away from the older brother. What are you blaming LI for, then?

Let's do a comparison with CalMAN:
- Portrait Displays, for many uncleared internal reasons, decides to discontinue CM Home Enthusiast version in favor of the "new" CM Home (which is a castrated version of CM Home Enthusiast usable only with Autocal functions for the TV brand(s) chosen by the user. Two TV brands will cost more than one, obviously). They gave us Home Enthusiast license owners a deadline (March, 31) to chose between pay 495$ per year to "upgrade" to Video Pro/Studio license (which only supports more hardware but has identical functionalities of the Home Enthusiast license) or pay $ 195 to receive updates and "support" until Sept. 2020 (19 months), then Home Enthusiast will no longer be supported/updated. It must be underlined that the day before that blackmail...ehm...communication, annual fees was $ 69 (12 months). In this case, we are not talking about features upgrade, we are talking about a clumsy move to grab money. No real Enthusiasts will upgrade to Video Pro/Studio license due to the annual fees, just a few will pay $195 to maintain "all access" and, probably, there will be no discount for the loyal Home Enthusiast customers to buy the "new" Home version.

Let's pretend that Steve instead of ColourSpace sent this email "We are announcing the new LightSpace HTXL, it just is our HTL but without this and that." and the day after another one "We are sorry to communicate that HTL version will be discontinued on Sept. 2020, anyone with that license level can upgrade to HTP for 400£ (not per year, lol) or... (damn we don't have annual fees...) ehm... or buy again the same software but with less features!", not only Steve is presenting a HUGE new upgrade (of philosophy, I'd add even if he will never admit) but he's not even telling you that you have to pay it entirely! So, keep on reporting what you think are bugs and keep on emailing him about it, he might not give you the answer you wanted but, at least, he will answer immediately. But, please, do not confuse sh(i)t with chocolate, it's a totally different taste! lol
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But, please, do not confuse sh(i)t with chocolate, it's a totally different taste! lol
Quote of the year. Stolen...

As I say I don't think there is anything to grumble about a new product being offered. Bugs and differences of opinion on existing functionality are a different matter to be dealt with elsewhere.
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If I'm honest I think that the arguments over the product eventually being retired and replaced with something else are a little bit odd. Nothing should happen to stop your SW working vs the day it is retired, it will still do what it did. Sounds like recent purchasers will have a full credit (which arguably just serving LI really they have to do this to keep selling LS licenses, having announced CS, to prevent sales drying up), and others will get some upgrade discount to a different product. The free updates policy on the website as far as I can see is for features purchased, not a guarantee of new features added.

Even going back to 2016 and probably further the policy was pretty clear; I'm not expecting big new features:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160315...m/support.html

The issue of any bugs, significant shortcomings or glitches in the existing product is a separate one and should be dealt with as such.
This is all fine if during your time of ownership you've had the maintenance and support you were promised. I said myself that if I had got the mainenance and support I was expecting to receive, I would be happy to pay for a new product (if it was indeed a new product).

As far as I'm concerned, and I'm clearly not the only MadVR user feeling that way, little to no support/maintenance was delivered over three years.

So even waiting for a low priority item to make it isn't going to help us, given that the product is about to be end of life and clearly all development efforts are going to be on Colourspace.

I think that as a Radiance owner you don't feel as alienated as us MadVR users, even if you share some frustration as a JVC owner

Given that I have given up all hopes regarding Lightspace, I'm asking if support for MadVR and JVC users will remain as apalling (i.e. little to no maintenance whatoever) or if this is going to change.

The money grabbing happened when the initial MadVR support was added. That's when I bought Lightspace, expecting maintenance over the life of the product.

I got little to no maintenance, and now the product is (almost) dead.

Why exactly would I invest (again) in another product if commitments are not clearly made that outstanding issues will be fixed and that maintenance will be provided if a product is on the list?

This is why I'm asking for clarity. Is Light Illusion supporting MadVR or not? Is Light Illusion supporting displays that do not meet 100% of the target gamut/volume?

In my experience, the answer is no to both questions, and there is no statement that indicates it will be different in the future, both for Lightspace and Colourspace.

As I said, this is my experience. I understand and accept that there are many users happy with the support they get on their more mainstream displays/VP.

That does't change our frustration at the absence of maintenance and the alienating support we get from Light Illusion.
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I think that as a Radiance owner you don't feel as alienated as us MadVR users, even if you share some frustration as a JVC owner
Fair comment. All I have to do to get a LUT uploaded is have the LUT selected and go to the upload menu, it does "just work" (so long as you realise the highlighted serial port in the UI might have changed if you've plugged / unplugged a "USB Serial" meter in like the Discus...)
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Fair comment. All I have to do to get a LUT uploaded is have the LUT selected and go to the upload menu, it does "just work" (so long as you realise the highlighted serial port in the UI might have changed if you've plugged / unplugged a "USB Serial" meter in like the Discus...)
Sounds good to me, though:

Do you have a way to know if an already loaded LUT is enabled or not?
Can you easily enable/disable a LUT in the Radiance to measure before/after calibration from the device itself?

As a MadVR User, I have to:

- Select MadVR in the upload menu
- Specify the IP address for MadTPG (the pattern generator) every single time, because Lightspace is unable to remember it between sessions. I'm not even asking for LS to find MadTPG automatically (which both DisplayCAL and Calman do), just to remember a fixed IP adress between sessions. Apparently, that's impossible with Lightspace.
- Select the 3D LUT slot I want to use and upload a null 3D LUT if I want to be sure that the LUT is disabled. There is no way to know otherwise, as the software doesn't check if the LUT is enabled or not, so it's in whichever state MadTPG is when launching the software. And the setting can't be changed in MadTPG once LS is connected to MadTPG. In Calman the LUT is disabled by default, so we always know what the default state is. Plus there is a box stating if the LUT is enabled or disabled.
- If I want to enable/disable the selected LUT in MadVR, the only way to do so is to disconnect MadTPG, manually change the 3D LUT setting in MadTPG, reconnect MadTPG. In Calman, I simply check/uncheck an "enable 3D LUT" box.
- Profile the display
- Generate the LUT
- Select a videoscale pass black filter and apply manually, because Lightspace generates illegal 3D LUTs for MadVR otherwise (that's using PC Levels, the last time I tried it was unable to generate a valid MadVR LUT if the chain was set to Video Levels). Both Calman and DisplayCAL either allow to select the correct levels once and for all (Calman, it's saved in the workflow), or force the correct levels to video levels without giving the option to the user to select anything else (DisplayCAL). Apparently in LS saving the option needed for videoscale and having it applied automatically to every single LUT generated isn't possible. So we have to do it manually. For every single LUT generated.
- Then if my display cannot reach 100% of the color volume, I have to manually assess that one or more primaries are undersaturated, manually create a custom gamut, and manually concatenate LUTs to get a usable LUT without posterization. Or I have to manually convert my LS profile to DisplayCAL format and get another software to generate the 3D LUT.
- Finally, I can upload my P3 3D LUT. And do the whole thing again for the rec-709 LUT (as I don't use the same baseline for both, so can't simply recalculate the LUT without losing a lot of contrast).

Is this going to be the same for MadVR users in Colourspace? Will we be stuck in 2016, and have a MadVR implementation frozen in time, without any improvements whatsoever to a clunky initial implementation that kind of worked but was far from ideal?

Could Light Illusion simply indicate if this is an acceptable workflow, in their view, for a MadVR user?

How would you feel if this was the workflow with the Radiance?

How would you feel if you had asked for reasonable improvements for months, years even for some, and got no results, only to find that your product is now end of life and about to be retired?
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post #59 of 89 Old 02-11-2019, 06:29 AM
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Manni your point is really clear and, given the fact that you're not going to buy another display and/or change your main video source (HTPC), I can't see any future with you and LightSpace/ColourSpace together.

I don't think Steve is going to sacrifice color accuracy for less artifacts on some "problematic" displays. At least this is what I understood from your exchange of views. Nothing is perfect and we're not talking about a paid software with broken 3D LUT engine (eg. crappy LUT for all), we're talking about the paid software with the most complete, complex and efficient LUT engine. If a combination of hardware and software puts the engine in the uncomfortable position of having to choose between color fidelity or the presence of less artifacts, this engine chooses the first, another engine chooses the second. Personally, I haven't tried DisplayCal on my panel because, as you already said, Argyll doesn't support Discus but I have seen some LUT created by DisplayCAL in action on Kuros and I didn't like it as much as I like mine. That doesn't mean that I dislike it and that I'm the one with the magic eyes. It's about references, tastes and compromises, especially when certain consumer displays get in this game. No one can do miracles and everyone has his philosophy. I have a 2017 LG LED in my bedroom and I ended up with a manual calibration for it because 3D LUT gave me better overall color accuracy but the overall PQ still sucked so I preferred to save some money and not buy another eecolor for it. That doesn't mean that I don't watch it every night, I just accept it for what it is... just like my wife do with me! LOL

Moral of the story: Steve cannot know what combination of panel and source will give problems and does not consider having to change the behavior of the software because he believes that this would be the detriment of other aspects or other displays. It's like when you buy a car. My two cents.

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Manni your point is really clear and, given the fact that you're not going to buy another display and/or change your main video source (HTPC), I can't see any future with you and LightSpace/ColourSpace together.

I don't think Steve is going to sacrifice color accuracy for less artifacts on some "problematic" displays. At least this is what I understood from your exchange of views. Nothing is perfect and we're not talking about a paid software with broken 3D LUT engine (eg. crappy LUT for all), we're talking about the paid software with the most complete, complex and efficient LUT engine. If a combination of hardware and software puts the engine in the uncomfortable position of having to choose between color fidelity or the presence of less artifacts, this engine chooses the first, another engine chooses the second. Personally, I haven't tried DisplayCal on my panel because, as you already said, Argyll doesn't support Discus but I have seen some LUT created by DisplayCAL in action on Kuros and I didn't like it as much as I like mine. That doesn't mean that I dislike it and that I'm the one with the magic eyes. It's about references, tastes and compromises, especially when certain consumer displays get in this game. No one can do miracles and everyone has his philosophy. I have a 2017 LG LED in my bedroom and I ended up with a manual calibration for it because 3D LUT gave me better overall color accuracy but the overall PQ still sucked so I preferred to save some money and not buy another eecolor for it. That doesn't mean that I don't watch it every night, I just accept it for what it is... just like my wife do with me! LOL

Moral of the story: Steve cannot know what combination of panel and source will give problems and does not consider having to change the behavior of the software because he believes that this would be the detriment of other aspects or other displays. It's like when you buy a car. My two cents.
You are lumping everything together. The undersaturation issue is one of the steps in the workflow above. LS itself can do a better compromise, but Steve refuses to give the user the option to apply this automatically. Also it's not about problematic displays, it's every display that has to calibrate to a target that it can't meet. Can be P3 (most consumer displays don't meet 100% of DCI-P3) or BT2020 (no consumer display meets 100% of BT2020. Even 70% is lucky).

Everything else in my list above is about convoluted/buggy MadVR support.

It's all very well for you to state what you state, I'm only asking Light Illusion if support for the JVCs and MadVR is going to remain as flaky as it is, or if we can expect improvements in Colourspace, given that it's clearly not going to happen in Lightspace now.

Can they commit to *proper* support and maintenance for these popular products, one that they officially support (madVR), the other that they don't officially exclude from support (JVC projectors)?

I honestly don't see what's wrong in asking these questions.

I've asked them, got no reply yet. I'm not going to ask them again, unless I see posts such as Bobof's that are questioning why we feel the way we feel.

Yes, I do feel alienated by the lack of support and maintenance over the three or four years I've owned the product.

Yes, I would like to know if there is a future for me as a user, so that I can tell MadVR users and JVC users whether Lightspace or Colourspace is a good option or not.

Until I hear differently, I will consider that the answer is no.

I think that Light Illusion should be more upfront, and either state that they don't support MadVR (because they don't, at least since 2016, it has issues in V9 that are not being corrected and lead to the convoluted workflow described above) and don't support displays that don't reach 100% of the target color volume.

That would be more straightforward, more honest, and I would accept this as an answer.

But don't take my money and then provide no support or maintenance, or bash my display capabilities to justify not making any improvements to the software. That's not honest.
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