ColourSpace CMS - Next Generation Calibration... Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 89 Old 02-11-2019, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Sounds good to me, though:

Do you have a way to know if an already loaded LUT is enabled or not?
Can you easily enable/disable a LUT to measure before/after calibration?

As a MadVR User, I have to:

- Select MadVR in the source menu
- Specify the IP address for MadTPG (the pattern generator) every single time, because Lightspace is unable to remember it between sessions. I'm not even asking for LS to find MadTPG automatically (which both DisplayCAL and Calman do), just to remember a fixed IP adress between sessions. Apparently, that's impossible with Lightspace.
- Select the 3D LUT slot I want to use and upload a null 3D LUT if I want to be sure that the LUT is disabled. There is no way to know otherwise, as the software doesn't check if the LUT is enabled or not, so it's in whichever state MadTPG is when launching the software. And the setting can't be changed in MadTPG once LS is connected to MadTPG. In Calman the LUT is disabled by default, so we always know what the default state is. Plus there is a box stating if the LUT is enabled or disabled.
- If I want to enable/disable the selected LUT, the only way to do so is to disconnect MadTPG, manually change the 3D LUT setting in MadTPG, reconnect MadTPG. In Calman, I simply check/uncheck an "enable 3D LUT" box.
- Profile the display
- Generate the LUT
- Select a videoscale pass black filter and apply manually, because Lightspace generates illegal 3D LUTs for MadVR otherwise (that's using PC Levels, the last time I tried it was unable to generate a valid MadVR LUT if the chain was set to Video Levels). Both Calman and DisplayCAL either allow to select the correct levels once and for all (Calman, it's saved in the workflow), or force the correct levels to video levels without giving the option to the user to select anything else (DisplayCAL). Apparently saving the option needed for videoscale and having it applied automatically to every single LUT generated isn't possible. So we have to do it manually. For every single LUT generated.
- Then if my display cannot reach 100% of the color volume, I have to manually assess that one or more primaries are undersaturated, manually create a custom gamut, and manually concatenate LUTs to get a usable LUT without posterization. Or I have to manually convert my LS profile to DisplayCAL format and get another software to generate the 3D LUT.
- Finally, I can upload my P3 3D LUT. And do the whole thing again for the rec-709 LUT (as I don't use the same baseline for both, so can't simply recalculate the LUT without losing a lot of contrast).

Is this going to be the same for MadVR users in Colourspace? Will we be stuck in 2016, and have a MadVR implementation frozen in time, without any improvements whatsoever to a clunky initial implementation that kind of worked but was far from ideal?

Could Light Illusion simply indicate if this is an acceptable workflow, in their view, for a MadVR user?

How would you feel if this was the workflow with the Radiance?

How would you feel if you had asked for reasonable improvements for months, years even for some, and got no results, only to find that your product is now end of life and about to be retired?
To be fair, the Radiance workflow isn't terribly different (though it usually remembers the serial port, sometimes it changes of it's own accord), but much of the reason for the experience is at Lumagen's door. I don't have to do the passblack stuff - though I guess this is just because the Lumagen LUTs are already videoscale with no access to BTB/WTW. The Radiance's own firmware only accepts LUT uploads to the currently active (displayed) CMS slot, with the CMS slots being selected by a complex logic in the Lumagen that allows you to conditionally choose different LUTs based on input, resolution, colour format, 3D, etc; you can either upload a LUT or you can zero the LUT. I >think< the Lumagen firmware would allow you to disable the 3DLUT portion at the Lumagen, but perhaps not the 1DLUT portion; so for "passthrough" you do have to either zero things, or keep another CMS setting with an empty 1D/3DLUT and switch to that. And there are good reasons why you might not want LS to be "automatically" switching CMS for you at the Lumagen end because of the above. Arguably what would be "nice" would be for there to be a little "LUT upload widget" on screen that made some of the operations you'd like to do often a bit quicker; that is probably all I would ask for as a Lumagen user.

I'm not sure what you're complaint is about generating the P3 LUT and REC709 LUT separately is as that is your choice for your system (or is it just exasperation - I've got to do all that again?!); - is it that you think there should be some quick "preset" option you can edit that would set LS to generate the two specific LUTs you desire because you happen to always need those two LUTs? I think that kind of thing is nice to have, would be cool and a time saving feature, but I don't expect it. As you're not using the same baseline you're having to do a separate profile for each I guess so I don't really get your point here; you couldn't actually output the two LUTs from the same profile so it would be a bit of a pig and special case to build something to automate that.

Maybe the remote control option for LS might allow aspects of these "workflows" you follow to be scripted externally. It will be interesting as if the remote control stuff doesn't have access to all these fields you mention it sounds like it won't actually work for many use cases.

Anyway, I do get your frustration though as it annoys me every time I use a product and have to do the same trivial operations over and over again that I just think should really have been done for me.
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post #62 of 89 Old 02-11-2019, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
To be fair, the Radiance workflow isn't terribly different (though it usually remembers the serial port, sometimes it changes of it's own accord), but much of the reason for the experience is at Lumagen's door. I don't have to do the passblack stuff - though I guess this is just because the Lumagen LUTs are already videoscale with no access to BTB/WTW. The Radiance's own firmware only accepts LUT uploads to the currently active (displayed) CMS slot, with the CMS slots being selected by a complex logic in the Lumagen that allows you to conditionally choose different LUTs based on input, resolution, colour format, 3D, etc; you can either upload a LUT or you can zero the LUT. I >think< the Lumagen firmware would allow you to disable the 3DLUT portion at the Lumagen, but perhaps not the 1DLUT portion; so for "passthrough" you do have to either zero things, or keep another CMS setting with an empty 1D/3DLUT and switch to that. And there are good reasons why you might not want LS to be "automatically" switching CMS for you at the Lumagen end because of the above. Arguably what would be "nice" would be for there to be a little "LUT upload widget" on screen that made some of the operations you'd like to do often a bit quicker; that is probably all I would ask for as a Lumagen user.

I'm not sure what you're complaint is about generating the P3 LUT and REC709 LUT separately is as that is your choice for your system (or is it just exasperation - I've got to do all that again?!); - is it that you think there should be some quick "preset" option you can edit that would set LS to generate the two specific LUTs you desire because you happen to always need those two LUTs? I think that kind of thing is nice to have, would be cool and a time saving feature, but I don't expect it. As you're not using the same baseline you're having to do a separate profile for each I guess so I don't really get your point here; you couldn't actually output the two LUTs from the same profile so it would be a bit of a pig and special case to build something to automate that.

Maybe the remote control option for LS might allow aspects of these "workflows" you follow to be scripted externally. It will be interesting as if the remote control stuff doesn't have access to all these fields you mention it sounds like it won't actually work for many use cases.

Anyway, I do get your frustration though as it annoys me every time I use a product and have to do the same trivial operations over and over again that I just think should really have been done for me.
No of course I accept having to do a separate calibration for rec-709 in order to get better results. That's not up to Lightspace. I could use the option to limit white from the P3 baseline (as I use the filter for both), but that kills on/off contrast so there is no advantage doing so, so I have to use a different iris setting to set peakY to around 50nits for SDR rec-709. It's just that because of the convoluted MadVR support in LS, I have to do the whole thing again, when with another software it's simply a matter of loading another workflow that sets all my targets automatically, profiling, uploading.

And no, I'm not expecting LS to switch LUTs automatically in any way. I only want to be able to disable/enable the LUT I have selected manually in MadVR and have a way to know if it's enabled or disabled, without having to go through the disconnect MadVR, change setting in MadTPG, reconnect MadVR. Zapping the LUT isn't an option if you want to verify a calibration.

I guess I could live with any of these issues separately, but it's the combination/accumulation (coming from a lack of maintenance since 2016) that makes the current implementation hard to live with. I still have the concatenated P3 LUT that Steve sent me back in the summer, and I'm hoping that I'll be able to use the product again with my rs2000, as gamut cover in both rec-709 and P3 should be better if not perfect, so shouldn't need LUT concatenation.

However, I won't have the option to not use the filter to save brightness, as I won't reach more than 95% of P3 without the filter, at best, so posterization issues are likely to pop up in that case without using the LUT concatenation procedure (a step too far for me).

I'll report my results in the LS thread as this is off topic here.
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post #63 of 89 Old 02-11-2019, 07:59 PM
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The most visually impressive capabilities within ColourSpace CMS revolve around the unique graphics capabilities ... including Error Tangent lines and colour coded measure points.
Hardly unique, as any user of ArgyllCMS colverify -w or colverify -W can attest...
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post #64 of 89 Old 02-11-2019, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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The introduction of ColourSpace will obviously have an impact on LightSpace.

As one of the major reason for the introduction of ColourSpace is to provide a platform for future colour and calibration developments, many of the new capabilities that will be introduced with ColourSpace will not be backwards compatible with LightSpace.

The new Volumetric 3D Graphs are a good example of that. They are just not compatible with the LightSpace code base.

That's not to say that compatible developments will not be added to LightSpace, as the new 'Remote Control' capabilities show, as they have been developed for ColourSpace, but have already been added to the next LightSpace release.

And bug fixes will obviously continue.

But, as time progresses, less and less ColourSpace developments will be compatible with LightSpace. And eventually it will just make no sense to continue to develop new LightSpace capabilities in parallel with ColourSpace.

Quite when that will be is really an unknown, and we will have open discussions about that as the time approaches.

But, very specifically, LightSpace is NOT being discontinued, and no users will be forced into jumping to ColourSpace, unless they choose to do so.

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post #65 of 89 Old 02-12-2019, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Hardly unique, as any user of ArgyllCMS colverify -w or colverify -W can attest...
Thanks for the heads-up Graeme, I was trying to figure out how to do something like this the other day for something I was investigating. I'll give it a go at some point and post about my experiences somewhere more appropriate, as this feature might be considered a well kept secret at the moment! Cheers.
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post #66 of 89 Old 02-12-2019, 01:33 AM
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I'd just add that the limitation of only uploading to the CMS in use on Radiance is not a limitation of the Radiance Hardware unless they changed something as other vendors products, when i sued them before i switched to LightSpace, were able to select the CMS bank to load the LUT in to. I do not find this imitation in LightSpace too much of an issue though but it would be nice if ColourSpace could allow this selection as it would remove one step in a Lumagen calibration.
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post #67 of 89 Old 02-12-2019, 02:47 AM
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I'd just add that the limitation of only uploading to the CMS in use on Radiance is not a limitation of the Radiance Hardware unless they changed something as other vendors products, when i sued them before i switched to LightSpace, were able to select the CMS bank to load the LUT in to. I do not find this imitation in LightSpace too much of an issue though but it would be nice if ColourSpace could allow this selection as it would remove one step in a Lumagen calibration.
I was only having a cursory glance at the serial docs, you might well be right; It only works on the current active CMS I believe, and then you have to jump through some hoops to get the CMS currently active. I guess you could use the ZY530MCS<CR> command, you'd probabably have to set both the current CMS for REC2020 and SDR709 to the appropriate CMS so that it would work regardless of the input format.
I see some of my other notes are incorrect / incomplete too - you could have an easy to access button to toggle "adjusted" mode for the pattern generator to be able to test without the LUT, without uploading the NULL LUT (assuming you don't need others of the CMS settings for your LUT, like the gamma / black adjustments).
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I was only having a cursory glance at the serial docs, you might well be right; It only works on the current active CMS I believe, and then you have to jump through some hoops to get the CMS currently active. I guess you could use the ZY530MCS<CR> command, you'd probabably have to set both the current CMS for REC2020 and SDR709 to the appropriate CMS so that it would work regardless of the input format.
I see some of my other notes are incorrect / incomplete too - you could have an easy to access button to toggle "adjusted" mode for the pattern generator to be able to test without the LUT, without uploading the NULL LUT (assuming you don't need others of the CMS settings for your LUT, like the gamma / black adjustments).

Yes when i used the "other" softwares it was pre HDR and SDR banks. It was on pre Radiance Pro units.
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Hi,
I think it's great that Light Illusion is migrating its program to a new development platform. The old one was really out of date.
But I would be even happier if "ColorSpace" offered proper data management. I miss that in LightSpace.
It does not have to be a complete database, but it would be good if you could summarize several measurements in one session.
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post #70 of 89 Old 02-19-2019, 03:37 AM
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We have a number of plans for ColourSpace and profile/data management as we move forward.
The initial release will be very simple, but as we have said, ColourSpace is a baby, and there is a lot of room for growth.
As we progress the development we will show the new additions, and will keep the Light Illusion website (and forum) updated with news.

The real benefit of ColourSpace is the future flexibility.
There will be a lot of new tools and capabilities as we progress.

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post #71 of 89 Old 02-20-2019, 11:01 PM
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Lightbulb

If at all possible please have a "Dark Theme" option.

... example ...
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If at all possible please have a "Dark Theme" option.
YES, please!
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I can get not sound from the ColourSpace video in the Light Illusion web site. Is it just me?

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There is no sound...
didn't think you would want to hear my voice too

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post #75 of 89 Old 03-09-2019, 08:35 AM
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There is no sound...
didn't think you would want to hear my voice too

Steve
And here I thought I was missing some juicy details .

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post #76 of 89 Old 03-27-2019, 08:14 AM
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For those going to NAB in a few weeks, we are trying our best to get a ColourSpace CMS demo available to be shown on the FSI booth - SL6328.

So if you are there, a visit to the FSI booth could be a bit of fun!

Steve

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post #77 of 89 Old 04-04-2019, 05:40 AM
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The first live demonstration of ColourSpace CMS will be available at NAB, on the FSI booth - SL6328.

The demo is a very early version of ColourSpace, and will not be fully operational, but will provide a good level of understanding as to what ColourSpace will be all about.

We aim to provide Bram/FSI with updates throughout the show, so the level of operational functionality will potentially increase each day.

Actually, most of the code is there – just not connected to the GUI at this point.

Critically, the new graphs work well, and for the first time can show true volumetric representations of any display's colour capabilities

If you are there, please drop by the booth, and ask Bram for a demo - and at the same time look over the impressive range of FSI professional displays.

Steve
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post #78 of 89 Old 04-04-2019, 05:42 AM
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If you (or someone else) could make a video of the demo (or a video capture) it would be very appreciated. Thanks.

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post #79 of 89 Old 04-04-2019, 07:13 AM
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We (Light Illusion) will not be at NAB...
We stopped doing 'shows' some years ago.
They are great social events, but just became an unnecessary expense beyond that.
(And that would impact the cost of our software. etc.)

There are demo videos already on the ColourSpace page of the website, and they will be updated.
I hope to do that in the next week or so... time allowing!

Steve
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post #80 of 89 Old 04-08-2019, 03:24 AM
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Development on ColourSpace is progressing well, and the first Alpha is now in the hands of a couple of 'testers'.
We are still a few weeks away from a viable Beta for wider testing.

But, I have a question regarding options for the Bar Graphs shown in this image.
What data would users like to see in this form?



The idea is the different Bar Graphs can be scrolled into view, or be visible simultaneously, depending on the program window size.
(Actual functionality still to be defined.)

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post #81 of 89 Old 04-08-2019, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Development on ColourSpace is progressing well, and the first Alpha is now in the hands of a couple of 'testers'.
We are still a few weeks away from a viable Beta for wider testing.

But, I have a question regarding options for the Bar Graphs shown in this image.
What data would users like to see in this form?



The idea is the different Bar Graphs can be scrolled into view, or be visible simultaneously, depending on the program window size.
(Actual functionality still to be defined.)

Steve
Will the views be customizable or ‘canned’? If they are going to be canned, who are the target groups? Colorists, professional calibrators, enthusiasts or all of the above? I ask this because I would think each group would prefer unique views (i.e. an enthusiast would want a straight forward/simplistic view, more graphical than numeric, whereas a pro calibrator would need/want more details, like numbers, to correspond to graphs).
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Each 'measured point' in the graphs can be selected, and the associated data from that point will be populated into the 'Manual Measure' data, regardless how the profile data was generated.
(There is a also an associated Point Data pop-up window for point editing, re-measuring and more, although that may be merged into the main Manual Measure window...)
This 'point select' already works for the CIE graphs.

So in the Bar Graphs, selecting any given 'bar' will show the point data associated for that point.
And the points shown in the bar graphs will depend on the data in the profile being displayed - either an automated profile, or one generated via manual measurements.

It should therefor cover all needs - hopefully.
Make sense?

Steve

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post #83 of 89 Old 04-08-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Each 'measured point' in the graphs can be selected, and the associated data from that point will be populated into the 'Manual Measure' data, regardless how the profile data was generated.
(There is a also an associated Point Data pop-up window for point editing, re-measuring and more, although that may be merged into the main Manual Measure window...)
This 'point select' already works for the CIE graphs.

So in the Bar Graphs, selecting any given 'bar' will show the point data associated for that point.
And the points shown in the bar graphs will depend on the data in the profile being displayed - either an automated profile, or one generated via manual measurements.

It should therefor cover all needs - hopefully.
Make sense?

Steve

Hello Steve,


The new bar graph is a very good idea.


It would be great to be able to display each bar linked to the colours available through a quick profile in LS, for example "memory colours". Then by clicking on a bar, it would set the corresponding RGB values automatically, ready for a measurement.
To go further, it would be even better to allow also the user to set up his own set of patches (bars) to be displayed. Of course this will be to be limited in number.

What do you think ?
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post #84 of 89 Old 04-08-2019, 11:55 AM
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That is already in ColourSpace - in different ways...

And yes, the idea is the bars will set the 'Measure' data to the patch colour when clicked, so it can be measured again.
(Again, as the Quick Profile will already have been done automatically as normal.)

The most advanced capability (already in ColourSpace) is you can load any user defined CSV colour list, and the colour sliders change to show the sequence of patches.
Clicking on any patch will then set the patch colour, and the target data.



That way you can set the patch sequence to match any TV's CMS patch requirements.

Steve
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post #85 of 89 Old 04-09-2019, 12:33 PM
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ColourSpace being demo'd on the Flanders Scientifc (FSI) booth at NAB, along with their range of professional HDR and SDR displays.
FSI are big LightSpace users, as all their displays are factory calibrated with LightSpace.
They will be moving to ColourSpace as soon as it is released.



Steve
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post #86 of 89 Old 04-09-2019, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
That is already in ColourSpace - in different ways...

And yes, the idea is the bars will set the 'Measure' data to the patch colour when clicked, so it can be measured again.
(Again, as the Quick Profile will already have been done automatically as normal.)

The most advanced capability (already in ColourSpace) is you can load any user defined CSV colour list, and the colour sliders change to show the sequence of patches.
Clicking on any patch will then set the patch colour, and the target data.



That way you can set the patch sequence to match any TV's CMS patch requirements.

Steve
It would be really nice to be able to double-click on the points in the CIE diagram or appropriate bar charts (like greyscale), maybe even the 3D views where you find an outlier, and for both the current selected patch and the patch list position to be set to the appropriate value. It would just be more immediate and save having to scroll through a list of colours to find the one you want. The "manage colourspace" view in current LS does this a bit, but it isn't linked to patch generation etc.
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post #87 of 89 Old 04-09-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It would be really nice to be able to double-click on the points in the CIE diagram or appropriate bar charts (like greyscale), maybe even the 3D views where you find an outlier, and for both the current selected patch and the patch list position to be set to the appropriate value. It would just be more immediate and save having to scroll through a list of colours to find the one you want. The "manage colourspace" view in current LS does this a bit, but it isn't linked to patch generation etc.
Yep, it does all that (not with the 3D graphs though at the moment...)
It even then gives you the option to re-read just that patch to update/correct the profile.

Steve
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post #88 of 89 Old 04-09-2019, 10:29 PM
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It definitely looks like we will have some fun! Can’t wait for it to be released!
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A/V Chain: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, Pioneer VSX-921, Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #89 of 89 Old 04-10-2019, 11:39 AM
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I am very new to LightSpace(little more than a week) and still reading up the long thread, Steve's webpage and consulting with Ted. But, these pictures look so enticing that even I am eager to try. Good times ahead!
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