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post #1 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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ColourSpace CMS - Next Generation Calibration... Thread



This thread is dedicated for discussion about the upcoming ColourSpace CMS software, which will take display calibration, colour management, and colour workflows to the next level.

ColourSpace expands on LightSpace CMS as the de-facto standard for advanced colour management within the global film, TV, and post-production industries where colour control is not just critical, but requires facility-wide management from a simple to use system that is display format and workflow agnostic.

The background to ColourSpace is some 5 years old, with the equivalent of an unprecedented 15+ years man-hours development time dedicated to re-imagining the needs and requirements for next generation display calibration, colour management and colour workflows.

While there are similarities in some areas of the look and feel of ColourSpace when compared to the existing LightSpace CMS, only the Gen3 Colour engine is the same, with the rest of the system being totally new, built from the ground-up, with no code similarity.



3D Graphs: Unique 3D interactive graphs, enable accuracy assessment in ways previously impossible, with dE tangent lines defining individual point errors, while all graphs can effectively be infinitely zoomed and scrolled.



Interactivity: Speed, combined with advanced 3D graphic charts, unique error tangent lines, and data point colour coding results in a level of user interactivity unmatched in any alternative calibration system.



Building on the unmatched capabilities of Light Illusion's existing calibration system - LightSpace CMS - ColourSpace is a ground-up, and totally new product development that far exceeds the capabilities of any previous or present calibration systems.

ColourSpace enables unprecedented and previously unachievable levels of accuracy and data reporting for display calibration, colour management, and colour workflows within the professional Film, Post-Production, & Broadcast industries, as well as for Display Manufacturers and Home Cinema enthusiasts.

ColourSpace CMS will become the new de-facto standard for advanced colour management, guaranteeing the highest possible level of display calibration and colour control, regardless of final application.



The most visually impressive capabilities within ColourSpace CMS revolve around the unique graphics capabilities, combined with interactive data manipulation, with 3D CIE, XYZ, and normalised Colour Space Graphs, including Error Tangent lines and colour coded measure points.

New user defined patch colour sequences have been added for manual TV CMS adjustments, allowing any patch sequences to be imported for either manual or automated measurements.

Release time-scales have not been fixed, and although LightIllusion is hoping for sooner rather than later, the last 10% of product development always seems to take an inordinately long time, compared to the previous 90% development...

During this finalisation time LightIllusion is happy to answer any question!

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post #2 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 09:49 AM
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Those graphs and charts are amazing. The industry keeps evolving.

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post #3 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 09:50 AM
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Beta beta beta put it on!
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post #4 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 09:58 AM
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Looks like LightSpace on visual steroids! Bring it on! Looking at the development page, it adds several features not available in LS, at least the version level I have. Maybe you can expand on the new features?
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post #5 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
3D Graphs: Unique 3D interactive graphs, enable accuracy assessment in ways previously impossible, with dE tangent lines defining individual point errors, while all graphs can effectively be infinitely zoomed and scrolled.
Really looking forward to playing with this when it becomes available. I've been trying to get my head around the performance of my JVC projector's internal processing; its calibration tools allow you to create custom gamuts for example for DCIP3 or REC709. I can see there is something mildly entertaining going on judging by what happens if you create a 3DLUT for one of these profiles, but I've currently got no good way to explore the profile, can only do it implicitly by first generating a LUT. At first look in the "traditional" 2D charts you'd look at them and think it looks pretty OK...
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post #6 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 11:16 AM
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ColourSpace CMS - Next Generation Calibration... Thread

Will it support the Quantum Data 804 and 780 family of PGs? I use an 804a and have a 780 as a backup. CalMAN triggers HDR output on them, but HDR can’t be triggered manually with their normal touchscreen settings.


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post #7 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 11:28 AM
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Sounds promising. Hopefully the workflows are user friendly for enthusiast and customizable professionals.... along with the reporting. I look forward to the betas.
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post #8 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 11:32 AM
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Will there be an upgrade path for Lightspace users? I was hoping this more modern interface was coming in a new main release of the software, not in a new product. I'm not very happy if I have to buy another software just to get the interface that Lightspace was missing and see outstanding issues resolved (assuming the issues outstanding in Lightspace are indeed solved in this new product).

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post #9 of 90 Old 02-08-2019, 12:09 PM
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All information on ColourSpace, including the reasons for its development, and future options, should be within our website ColourSpace page.

https://www.lightillusion.com/colourspace.html

As we finalise development we will keep the page updated.
And if info is missing, shout, and we'll add it.

The initial release will likely just have existing hardware support.
But, future updates will add more and more capabilities.

Edited to add:
This most definitely is not about a more modern interface, although that is very different in ColourSpace.
The LightSpace code base just can't be changed like this.
We really had to start again - from scratch.
And we have been at this for some years!

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Wow! It looks promising! Is there any integration with TVs, monitors?

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post #11 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 02:01 AM
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One of the new developments for ColourSpace is actually also being retro-fitted to LightSpace.
This is a new 'Remote Control' capability, with a 'Secondary Execution' function too.

With these functions anyone can connect a third party program to LightSpace/ColourSpace to enable features/capabilities that are not natively within LightSpace, but would require a lot of the capabilities of LightSpace/ColourSpace to be developed within the third party program if it were not for the remote control option.

A good example is where a third party program needs probe and patch generation capability, which LightSpace/ColourSpace can provide, while the third party program offers DDC type connections/adjustments to different TVs.

We will be releasing a Beta version of LightSpace with this 'Remote Control' and 'Secondary Execution' capability to third party program developers some time next week - hopefully!

Steve
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My hopes for a few tweaks in this new SW which slowly bug me about LS, but I live with and accept:

"Traditional" absolute gamma chart with standard scaling showing reference gamma and measured.
Ability to show gamut sweep targets on the traditional CIE charts as well as zooming these charts
Ability to "fold in" the drift compensation so that you can look at the charts with the benefit of the drift compensation applied to the profile (on a drifting display most of the profile charts get messy)
More intuitive ways to control pattern generation when driving manually (eg type W25 for 25% white, R10 for red 10%, Y50 for red 50% G 50%, etc).
Less forms that block other forms from even being moved when open (eg manage colourspace prevents interaction with display calibration)
Cancel option for LUT generation and maybe just some kind of indication of progress (not even completion, just so we can get an idea of what is going on)
When exploring a measured profile, show the target xyY for the selected patch in the selected colourspace (at the moment we can just see the result reported in various different ways). Maybe add option to show the targets on the CIE chart.

I'm sure there are others...
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post #13 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
My hopes for a few tweaks in this new SW which slowly bug me about LS, but I live with and accept:

"Traditional" absolute gamma chart with standard scaling showing reference gamma and measured.
Ability to show gamut sweep targets on the traditional CIE charts as well as zooming these charts
Ability to "fold in" the drift compensation so that you can look at the charts with the benefit of the drift compensation applied to the profile (on a drifting display most of the profile charts get messy)
More intuitive ways to control pattern generation when driving manually (eg type W25 for 25% white, R10 for red 10%, Y50 for red 50% G 50%, etc).
Less forms that block other forms from even being moved when open (eg manage colourspace prevents interaction with display calibration)
Cancel option for LUT generation and maybe just some kind of indication of progress (not even completion, just so we can get an idea of what is going on)
When exploring a measured profile, show the target xyY for the selected patch in the selected colourspace (at the moment we can just see the result reported in various different ways). Maybe add option to show the targets on the CIE chart.

I'm sure there are others...
There *are* others :

- Fix the 3D LUT engine so that when the native gamut of the display is undersaturated, or when the target is wider than the display capability, there is no need to manually create a custom gamut and use the LUT Concatenation feature to avoid posterization. It's more and more common to have to create LUTs for a target wider than the display, for example BT2020 or even P3 on some displays, and LS can't handle this well. How difficult is it to automatically create a custom gamut based on the measured primaries and concatenate the LUT if any of the primaries are undersaturated, or at least provide the option to do so?
- Greyscale/RGB balance at 10% and below is worse after the 3D LUT than before, at least here.

Better support for MadVR, which includes:
- replace the old .dll from 2015 that causes an invalid header when a P3 3D LUT is uploaded to MadVR using MadTPG (this was fixed months ago in MadVR but inexplicably is still not fixed in LS, yet it's a simple .dll swap in the installation package. At the moment the *only* way to get a correct DCI-P3 3D LUT with LS is to manually copy the fixed .dll after installation.
- allow to enable/disable the selected 3D LUT in MadVR without having to disconnect the patterns in LS or uploading a NULL LUT, which isn't always desirable if we want to verify, not replace an existing LUT. This is not only clumsy, it's also error-prone as there is no way to know if the 3D LUT is enabled or not when taking measurements.
- support properly 3D LUT levels in MadVR. MadVR always needs video levels in 3D LUTs, and LS is the only software that makes it necessary to manually apply a videoscale filter after the creation of each single LUT, which is bonkers. Failing this, offer an option to apply automatically this filter to each LUT created, to minimize the risk of error and to improve workflow. After I reported this issue, Steve added a note on the website to warn users that they have to manually apply the correct filter after each LUT creation otherwise the LUT created is invalid, but still no way for the user to deal with this automatically.
- offer tabs so that we can save different measurements of the same set (gamut, greyscale, etc) for example to measure before/after or different presets. This is really missing in LS compared to Calman.

All the above has been reported to Steve in July (and earlier for the interface improvements), and still no fix in LS. I understand that they are busy working on the new software, but as a user of LS I find it hard to suffer all the issues with the MadVR implementation. Apparently I'm the only one suffering from these issues, which is supposed to explain why they are not getting fixed... Is there no one else using LS to create DCI-P3 LUTs with MadVR? Or checking their results when the wrong levels are applied? Or wanting an easy way to know if the 3D LUT is enabled, and have a simple way to enable/disable it? Or check for posterization when targeting a gamut wider than the native gamut of the display?

I'm certainly hoping that all these issues (and others) will be fixed in Colourspace, given that the two software share the same LUT engine, and that the trade up offer will be good, otherwise I don't see any reason to upgrade as a MadVR user.

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Will LS still receive updates or will it be discontinued?

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Will LS still receive updates or will it be discontinued?
According to the product page the two products will live together for a while then LS will be retired (but should still work as the license is permanent).

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post #16 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
There *are* others :

- Fix the 3D LUT engine so that when the native gamut of the display is undersaturated, or when the target is wider than the display capability, there is no need to manually create a custom gamut and use the LUT Concatenation feature to avoid posterization. It's more and more common to have to create LUTs for a target wider than the display, for example BT2020 or even P3 on some displays, and LS can't handle this well. How difficult is it to automatically create a custom gamut based on the measured primaries and concatenate the LUT if any of the primaries are undersaturated, or at least provide the option to do so?
- Greyscale/RGB balance at 10% and below is worse after the 3D LUT than before, at least here.

Better support for MadVR, which includes:
- replace the old .dll from 2015 that causes an invalid header when a P3 3D LUT is uploaded to MadVR using MadTPG (this was fixed months ago in MadVR but inexplicably is still not fixed in LS, yet it's a simple .dll swap in the installation package. At the moment the *only* way to get a correct DCI-P3 3D LUT with LS is to manually copy the fixed .dll after installation.
- allow to enable/disable the selected 3D LUT in MadVR without having to disconnect the patterns in LS or uploading a NULL LUT, which isn't always desirable if we want to verify, not replace an existing LUT. This is not only clumsy, it's also error-prone as there is no way to know if the 3D LUT is enabled or not when taking measurements.
- support properly 3D LUT levels in MadVR. MadVR always needs video levels in 3D LUTs, and LS is the only software that makes it necessary to manually apply a videoscale filter after the creation of each single LUT, which is bonkers. Failing this, offer an option to apply automatically this filter to each LUT created, to minimize the risk of error and to improve workflow. After I reported this issue, Steve added a note on the website to warn users that they have to manually apply the correct filter after each LUT creation otherwise the LUT created is invalid, but still no way for the user to deal with this automatically.
- offer tabs so that we can save different measurements of the same set (gamut, greyscale, etc) for example to measure before/after or different presets. This is really missing in LS compared to Calman.

All the above has been reported to Steve in July (and earlier for the interface improvements), and still no fix in LS. I understand that they are busy working on the new software, but as a user of LS I find it hard to suffer all the issues with the MadVR implementation. Apparently I'm the only one suffering from these issues, which is supposed to explain why they are not getting fixed... Is there no one else using LS to create DCI-P3 LUTs with MadVR? Or checking their results when the wrong levels are applied? Or wanting an easy way to know if the 3D LUT is enabled, and have a simple way to enable/disable it? Or check for posterization when targeting a gamut wider than the native gamut of the display?

I'm certainly hoping that all these issues (and others) will be fixed in Colourspace, given that the two software share the same LUT engine, and that the trade up offer will be good, otherwise I don't see any reason to upgrade as a MadVR user.
I think many of those are "just" bugs(!) to be prioritised. I was thinking of stuff unlikely to ever change in LS and perhaps could perhaps sneak in now a new product is happening.

Admittedly none of the MarVR ones would make it to my love-list but the behaviour of the LUT engine with smaller than target gamut displays is particularly annoying as it gets quite wonky around any LUT points corresponding to out-of-display-gamut areas; it's really hard to see any logic in what happens (it's almost as if the points bounce back off the cube edge, instead of getting clipped to the outer edge of the RGB cube), leaving the only option to use Fit Space LUT. Are you using the LUT concatenation to grab the better greyscale out of the fit or map LUT, and then concatenating that with the colour portion of the fit LUT? That's the only workflow that seems to work (ish) for these displays for me.
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With a small gamut display the colour engine in LS functions exactly as it is designed to do.
It maintains colour accuracy with the colours that 'can' be corrected accurately.
Any other approach is just wrong.
It will not sacrifice colour accuracy for a larger, inaccurate, gamut.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
There *are* others :

- Fix the 3D LUT engine so that when the native gamut of the display is undersaturated, or when the target is wider than the display capability, there is no need to manually create a custom gamut and use the LUT Concatenation feature to avoid posterization. It's more and more common to have to create LUTs for a target wider than the display, for example BT2020 or even P3 on some displays, and LS can't handle this well. How difficult is it to automatically create a custom gamut based on the measured primaries and concatenate the LUT if any of the primaries are undersaturated, or at least provide the option to do so?
- Greyscale/RGB balance at 10% and below is worse after the 3D LUT than before, at least here.
This may be off-topic, but have you tried LS' new Augmented LUT generation? Although I'm not trying to shrink DCI-P3 into a much smaller gamut, one of my TVs, an old CRT rear-projector, has a gamut in which Blue is fine, but Red and Green are both undersaturated and outside the gamut triangle for Rec. 709. Using the Augmentation procedure has resulted in a visual improvement in darker area detail as well as better grayscale chart performance.
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With a small gamut display the colour engine in LS functions exactly as it is designed to do.
It maintains colour accuracy with the colours that 'can' be corrected accurately.
Any other approach is just wrong.
It will not sacrifice colour accuracy for a larger, inaccurate, gamut.

Steve
The current LUT engine is causing posterization when the target is wider than the native gamut of the display.

The current workaround to this issue is to manually spot when the primaries are undersaturated, manually create a custom gamut, then manually concatenate the LUTs.

This is not acceptable. We often have to use 3D LUTs with a target wider than the display. BT2020 is the most common example, as no consumer display reaches BT2020, yet it's the target we have to use for all consumer sources. Only MadVR or the Radiance allow to use DCI-P3 as a target. And even then, some displays can't reach 100% of DCI-P3, either because of native gamut limitations, or because they prefer to privilege brightness over color.

The current workaround isn't acceptable. This is why I'm using DisplayCAL at the moment to generate my 3D LUTs. I'm not going to go through a dozen of steps for every LUT generated, given that I already have to manually apply the videoscale filter as well as otherwise the MadVR LUTs generated by Lightspace are invalid.

This isn't the case using DisplayCAL, from the same LS profile, so this is clearly an LS issue, not a profiling or meter issue.

DisplayCAL generates a valid LUT (with video levels) that doesn't have posterization. In one step.

Also I really don't see how resolving posterization is sacrificing color accuracy. You prefer to have LUTs that cause posterization because that's more "accurate"?

You need to fix this, or at least to give the user the option to get something less "accurate" if that solves the posterization issue.

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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
This may be off-topic, but have you tried LS' new Augmented LUT generation? Although I'm not trying to shrink DCI-P3 into a much smaller gamut, one of my TVs, an old CRT rear-projector, has a gamut in which Blue is fine, but Red and Green are both undersaturated and outside the gamut triangle for Rec. 709. Using the Augmentation procedure has resulted in a visual improvement in darker area detail as well as better grayscale chart performance.
Yes, doesn't work.

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I think many of those are "just" bugs(!) to be prioritised. I was thinking of stuff unlikely to ever change in LS and perhaps could perhaps sneak in now a new product is happening.

Admittedly none of the MarVR ones would make it to my love-list but the behaviour of the LUT engine with smaller than target gamut displays is particularly annoying as it gets quite wonky around any LUT points corresponding to out-of-display-gamut areas; it's really hard to see any logic in what happens (it's almost as if the points bounce back off the cube edge, instead of getting clipped to the outer edge of the RGB cube), leaving the only option to use Fit Space LUT. Are you using the LUT concatenation to grab the better greyscale out of the fit or map LUT, and then concatenating that with the colour portion of the fit LUT? That's the only workflow that seems to work (ish) for these displays for me.
None of the other options work for me to avoid posterization. The only thing that works is creating a custom gamut and concatenating LUTs manually, and frankly I don't have the time for that. So I use DisplayCAL to generate the LUTs, in one step.

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As I have said, the colour engine works exactly as it is designed to do with low gamut displays.
But, if the display's pre-setup is bad, it will have issues as the introduction of highly irregular colour configurations will case the colour engine insurmountable issues.
That is not a LightSpace issue.

And that Augment isn't working shows there are far deeper issues with the display's initial configuration.
As is explained within the 'Augment Data' info on the website it can only 'fail' if there are underlying issues.

Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do about that, except explain what the underlying issues potentially are.
With a viable display pre-setup the colour engine will work exactly as it should.

But, that LUT concatenation can be performed shows the flexibility inherent in LightSpace.
And if any user is happier with that result, that is their choice.
It's nice to have the different options.

However, we do have some ideas for a new approach to profiling, that has evolved from our work with WOLEDs, and this is looking interesting.
We're not totally certain of the outcome, but thanks to Flanders Scientific, we have been able to perform far more in-depth evaluations than we would otherwise have been able to perform.

It may be these new ideas improve standard results when a display has a poor initial setup.
But, maybe not.
Having a good display setup before profiling is always a good first step.

Steve

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post #23 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 06:49 AM
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As I have said, the colour engine works exactly as it is designed to do with low gamut displays.
But, if the display's pre-setup is bad, it will have issues as the introduction of highly irregular colour configurations will case the colour engine insurmountable issues.
That is not a LightSpace issue.

And that Augment isn't working shows there are far deeper issues with the display's initial configuration.
As is explained within the 'Augment Data' info on the website it can only 'fail' if there are underlying issues.

Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do about that, except explain what the underlying issues potentially are.
With a viable display pre-setup the colour engine will work exactly as it should.

But, that LUT concatenation can be performed shows the flexibility inherent in LightSpace.
And if any user is happier with that result, that is their choice.
It's nice to have the different options.

However, we do have some ideas for a new approach to profiling, that has evolved from our work with WOLEDs, and this is looking interesting.
We're not totally certain of the outcome, but thanks to Flanders Scientific, we have been able to perform far more in-depth evaluations than we would otherwise have been able to perform.

It may be these new ideas improve standard results when a display has a poor initial setup.
But, maybe not.
Having a good display setup before profiling is always a good first step.

Steve
There is nothing wrong with the initial setup or the profiling. Or are you saying that LS only works with BT2020 calibrations if the display reaches BT2020? Or with P3 calibrations if the display reaches 100% of P3?

DisplayCAL produces similar results as those obtained with the clumsy concatenation process *using the profile created by Lightspace*, just in one step instead of about a dozen (for a MadVR user).

You can keep defending your LUT engine, blaming the display or the user, but the reality is that you need to take into account when the native primaries can't reach the target, and correct the result of the software without asking the user to jump through ten different manual steps. Most consumer displays are limited to P3, yet they have to use a BT2020 calibration. You simply need to deal better with this now common reality of calibration.

There is nothing "nice" about Lightspace ability to generate a custom gamut and concatenate LUTs. It doesn't make up for the fact that the LUT engine isn't able to identify this and do whatever has to be done automatically, or at least offer the user an option to do so. Especially when the user is also asked to jump through manual steps because the LUT generated by Lightspace is invalid, so has to apply a videoscale filter manually to every single LUT generated.

It goes like this for a MadVR user using Lightspace:

- Make sure that the existing 3D LUT isn't active as there is no way to know or disable the 3D LUT easily, apart from zapping it will a null LUT.
- Profile the display and create the LUT
- Calculate a custom gamut when one or more primaries can't reach the target
- Concatenate the LUTs manually
- Apply a videoscale filter because the 3D LUT generated is invalid as Lightspace doesn't use video levels to create MadVR LUTs (this is part of MadVR's specs)
- Upload the LUT to MadVR, making sure that the old .dll from 2015 has been replaced manually by a fixed one because you insist on using a broken dll that corrupts the header of DCI-P3 LUTs.

I have no idea why you can't accept that these are issues and fix them, and keep blaming the user or the display.

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post #24 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 07:03 AM
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Sorry to say there is not a lot more I can add.
I have explained all this in some detail in our direct email discussions.

The only thing that has changed is the fixed madVR dll will be in the next build.
But, that you are the only user to have ever found the error in the madVR dll says a lot.
(A madVR error, not LightSpace.)

And as I have explained regrading VideoScale, the user has two choices - PassBlack, or ClipBlack.
We cannot automate that, as we would not know which option the user wants.
Some prefer to clip, others don't.
So it will remain a user choice - as I have explained before

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Sorry to say there is not a lot more I can add.
I have explained all this in some detail in our direct email discussions.
Yes, you have explained that there is no improvement to expect in Lightspace regarding target gamut the exceeds the capability of the display.

My question is:

1) do you confirm that you are going to leave it like this, when other solutions provide far better results that don't need extra manual steps, or do you agree that being able to generate a usable BT2020 3D LUT when the display is only able to reach 100% of P3, or a DCI-P3 3D LUT when the display is only able to reach 90% of P3, is a perfectly legitimate need that should be identified and optimized by the LUT engine, the way other solutions do?
2) Is Colourspace going to suffer the same limitation / unnecessary manual steps to get a usable result?

Simple questions, a yes or no answer will do.

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The only thing that has changed is the fixed madVR dll will be in the next build.
But, that you are the only user to have ever found the error in the madVR dll says a lot.
(A madVR error, not LightSpace.)
Sorry, this was a MadVR error until @madshi solved the issue in 0.92.15 back in September 2018. I let you know as soon as the updated .dll was available, nothing happened for months, and when I asked you recently, you said you would leave to the user to handle. I'm glad you changed your mind and have finally decided to update the .dll in your distribution package.

I have no idea what you imply by saying that I'm the only user to have reported this. Yes, I identified the issue thanks to @fhoech 's help, that doesn't mean that others were not impacted by it. I have no idea why no other user ever reported this to you. Maybe they don't use Lightspace to generate DCI-P3 3D LUTs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
And as I have explained regrading VideoScale, the user has two choices - PassBlack, or ClipBlack.
We cannot automate that, as we would not know which option the user wants.
Some prefer to clip, others don't.
So it will remain a user choice - as I have explained before

Steve
Sure, you've explained this to me. I understand that you want to leave the user the option to create valid or invalid LUTs for MadVR. But whatever the option is, it's not going to change for each user, so I'm simply asking for an option to specify which filter we want to apply automatically to every LUT we create for MadVR, so that we don't have to apply a filter manually to every single LUT.
Calman allows you to specify video levels or PC Levels in the workflow, you only do it once and it's done.
DisplayCAL generates MadVR's LUT in video levels, as per the specs, so this extra steps isn't necessary either.
I have indeed explained this to you privately because I think it's a more civil way to get results, but the lack of results forces me to ask you to do something about this publicly.
Thank you for improving MadVR support in MadVR, both in Lightspace and in Colourspace.

We also need to be able to be enable or disable a 3D LUT easily. Uploading a null LUT is only an option when creating a new LUT. It's not an option when we want to verify an existing calibration. This isn't difficult, it's not debatable that it would be useful, I have no idea if I'm the only MadVR user asking for this, and if it's the case, why, but I know that if you do implement this it will be useful to all users.
Calman has a simple enable/disable 3D LUT box to achieve this.

All this I have asked for months. I understand that no one is entitled to new features, but if you could at least fix the outstanding issues instead of brushing them under the carpet, blaming the user or the display, it would be much appreciated.

You are always available, including out of hours, and I appreciate this very much, but I am not happy with the level of support I am getting in Lightspace and that we needed to have this public exchange on a forum for you to finally update a single .dll in your distribution package does say a lot about the amount of development time you are dedicating to support MadVR in the software.

I hope this will change, both with Lightspace and with Colourspace.

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post #26 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm suggesting to move any topic related to LightSpace to the LightSpace thread.

Here is ColorSpace CMS thread only.

LightSpace thread is there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ftware-62.html

If something changed to LightSpace, it will affect ColorSpace.

Thanks.

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A video showing the interactive nature of the graphs...

https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/cqnQDv3d5b

Steve

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post #28 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I'm suggesting to move any topic related to LightSpace to the LightSpace thread.

Here is ColorSpace CMS thread only.

LightSpace thread is there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ftware-62.html

If something changed to LightSpace, it will affect ColorSpace.

Thanks.
Hi Ted,

With all respect, Lightspace and Colourspace are apparently sharing the same LUT engine, so most of my points are on topic, if you were referring to my posts.

As a Lightspace user, I was expecting improvements in the current software. One of the reasons why I bought it was that I was told that unlike some of the competition, there was no maintenance fee, forever. This was supposed to justify the fairly steep price of the software. Pay once, don't pay again. I understand that this business model might not make sense anymore if there are not enough new sales to make it sustainable, but that's not really my problem. My problem is that I can't really use the software I bought and that no one seems to care.

Colourspace looks to me like what the long awaiting major upgrade to Lightspace should have been: same LUT engine, more modern interface. Giving it a new name doesn't really change that it's Lightspace V10.

Not only did I not get the level of maintenance and support that I was expecting to get on Lightspace (I should note after having given more than a fair chance to Steve offline to address these issues without any success), but "forever" turns out to be four years or so, during which I haven't used the software much because of various issues still outstanding. So yes, colour me frustrated and unhappy with the experience. I was hoping for fixes and improvements in Lightspace, and now I realise that there won't be any unless I part again with my money. It's easy to understand why I'm not jumping with joy.

I will repost my questions in the Lightspace thread, but for me it is entirely on topic to know, before getting all excited about a new interface and making the decision to trade-up or not:

1) Whether the outstanding issues in the Lightspace LUT engine are going to be solved in Colourspace, given that the two share the same LUT engine
2) If the lack of support/improvement for MadVR is going to continue in Colourspace, and if MadVR support is what it is (basically no change since 2015), take it or leave it, or if improvements are to be expected in Colourspace, as it looks like none are to be expected in Lightspace, according to my email correspondance with Steve?
3) Why should I buy another software when I don't get the promised support/maintenance on the current one, especially if the outstanding issues are not fixed in the new one?

I'm sure that Lightspace works great for many of its users and I recognise that MadVR users might not represent a majority of users, but as an experienced MadVR user, it's falling short for me.

If this is only a marketing thread, please say so, but as far as I'm concerned announcing this new software is adding insult to injury: little to no improvements in Lightspace regarding MadVR support in three years, and now having to pay for a new software to get what exactly? The fact that the software isn't ready and that the trade up offer isn't worked out yet doesn't help.

I note that Steve has decided not to answer these questions here, but I hope that he will answer them in the Lightspace thread, where I am taking this discussion as requested.

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post #29 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
A video showing the interactive nature of the graphs...

https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/cqnQDv3d5b

Steve

Looks nice,is there some form of a workflow in this new program for instance gear setup-profiling-greyscale-3dlut or is the user interface like the ”old” one,tricky

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post #30 of 90 Old 02-09-2019, 12:30 PM
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Looks nice,is there some form of a workflow in this new program for instance gear setup-profiling-greyscale-3dlut or is the user interface like the ”old” one,tricky
We totally disagree with a 'workflows' approach.
They are far too limiting.
We do expect users to have some understanding of calibration, and will do our best to help educate.
It really is something we deeply believe.

Steve

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