Colour Temperature & Calibration - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Old 04-08-2019, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Colour Temperature & Calibration

There are zillions of posts on Colour temperature with Warm 1/2 being the 'correct' one to use but ......

I know the starting point in Calibration is to select the correct colour temperature but for the life of me, I just do not like Warm 1/2. Have been trying out Warm1 on my Q9FN for a week now while i wait for my meters to and blue skies and green grass do not look real at all. Both look off.

So question is, should i just calibrate with Standard colour temp or am i just a numpty barbarian?
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post #2 of 26 Old 04-08-2019, 09:52 PM
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Apart from the metameric failure produced by OLED/QLED TVs. If you like a cooler Color Temperature and you calibrate using D65 as your reference you will end up with a warm CT anyway but it will take more of your time and the final results could be worse than calibrating warm 1/2. So, if you want to calibrate your TV to Rec.709/gamma 2.4 reference your “taste” it’s not taken in account; but since that is your TV you can calibrate it to a cooler white point, if you want, at the expense of the mythological “director’s intent”. It’s up to you. I always go for the reference. Grayscale defines CT, if colors look unreal to you, you should act on CMS, probably your primaries are off. What’s you calibration hardware and software?

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post #3 of 26 Old 04-08-2019, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Apart from the metameric failure produced by OLED/QLED TVs. If you like a cooler Color Temperature and you calibrate using D65 as your reference you will end up with a warm CT anyway but it will take more of your time and the final results could be worse than calibrating warm 1/2. So, if you want to calibrate your TV to Rec.709/gamma 2.4 reference your “taste” it’s not taken in account; but since that is your TV you can calibrate it to a cooler white point, if you want, at the expense of the mythological “director’s intent”. It’s up to you. I always go for the reference. Grayscale defines CT, if colors look unreal to you, you should act on CMS, probably your primaries are off. What’s you calibration hardware and software?
Thanks - the 'directors intent' drives me up the wall as the picture never look real to me. Especially for stuff like Planet Earth etc it just seems plain wrong.

So basically, no matter what CT I choose, Calibration will always bring it back to Warm 1/2 except it will harder to calibrate from an 'incorrect CT'. Sign.

Software is CalMAN and meters (coming) are i1 Display Pro OEM + i1 Pro 2

Last edited by mombasa123; 04-08-2019 at 10:45 PM.
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post #4 of 26 Old 04-09-2019, 03:09 AM
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Pro calibrators will do whatever you ask them to do, unless their professionalism is only boasted.
When your meters will be delivered, you might want to give rec.709/2.4 a chance, I don’t know which picture mode is the closest to the reference and how far it is from it on Samsungs

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post #5 of 26 Old 04-09-2019, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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yeh will do.

Plan it to calibrate to reference (Warm 1/2 whichever is closest) on one hdmi and to Standard on another.

Will report back as and when.
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post #6 of 26 Old 04-09-2019, 06:29 AM
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Warm 1/2 isn't always "correct", so don't assume that it is giving you the picture you will see after calibration. It's generally recommended to start calibrating from one of those two because they tend to be closer to D65 than the other CT choices on a set. As Miki pointed out, there could be other things going on such as CMS or your gamut selection. If it isn't already, I strongly suggest you change your set's Gamut control to Auto. Native means the set's native gamut, which these days tends to be near DCI-P3, and is totally incorrect for most content. Custom, OTOH, has to be set with calibration gear, not by eye. Auto is your best choice without the proper equipment.

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post #7 of 26 Old 04-09-2019, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Warm 1/2 isn't always "correct", so don't assume that it is giving you the picture you will see after calibration. It's generally recommended to start calibrating from one of those two because they tend to be closer to D65 than the other CT choices on a set. As Miki pointed out, there could be other things going on such as CMS or your gamut selection. If it isn't already, I strongly suggest you change your set's Gamut control to Auto. Native means the set's native gamut, which these days tends to be near DCI-P3, and is totally incorrect for most content. Custom, OTOH, has to be set with calibration gear, not by eye. Auto is your best choice without the proper equipment.
My set is on Auto Colour Space throughout but, yes, will try Custom as and when i get more into Calibration.

Re Warm 1/2 - noted but I realise the first step in any calibration is to set the CT as close to reference as possible be that Cool/Standard/Warm so will only know once I get my meters.
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post #8 of 26 Old 04-15-2019, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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So i have got my XRite meters and first thing i did was check CT. On my Q9FN and much to my chagrin, Warm2 is closest to 65k reference.

Using Ted's disk, I then did the basic calibrations inc Gamma, 2 point grayscale. After that checked 21 point and colour space.

21 point grayscale is spot on with <1 dE across the board. CS not so good - Green is rather undersaturated but that's for another day. Caveat : I haven't profiled my Colorimeter to the Spectro yet - using default LCD(LED) just to get into it.

Watched a few test clips inc bluray movies and ......... I really do not like Warm2

Seriously, alpine scenes look off-white and blue skies not as blue as i reckon they should be. I know what snow looks like and Warm2 is nothing like it.

PS Standard CT was way off in terms of grayscale etc but Alpine / beach / blue sky scenes really blows away Warm ..... Sigh.
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post #9 of 26 Old 04-16-2019, 09:59 AM
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The white you are used to is likely not the correct white. The fact that you feel it's not "as blue as it should be" gives away that you are used to the default settings on TVs that pushes too much the white point into blue.

If you really want to see the colors closer to how they are, leave the TV on Warm 2. After a while, you'll get used to, and the bluer white will appear wrong to you.

Take care in calibrating Quantum Dots TVs with the i1D3 uncorrected. The i1D3 does not measure such displays properly. You need a correction matrix. Have a look at this test carried out by Tom on several units.
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post #10 of 26 Old 04-16-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
So i have got my XRite meters and first thing i did was check CT. On my Q9FN and much to my chagrin, Warm2 is closest to 65k reference.

Using Ted's disk, I then did the basic calibrations inc Gamma, 2 point grayscale. After that checked 21 point and colour space.

21 point grayscale is spot on with <1 dE across the board. CS not so good - Green is rather undersaturated but that's for another day. Caveat : I haven't profiled my Colorimeter to the Spectro yet - using default LCD(LED) just to get into it.

Watched a few test clips inc bluray movies and ......... I really do not like Warm2

Seriously, alpine scenes look off-white and blue skies not as blue as i reckon they should be. I know what snow looks like and Warm2 is nothing like it.

PS Standard CT was way off in terms of grayscale etc but Alpine / beach / blue sky scenes really blows away Warm ..... Sigh.
If you aren't, you should be adjusting to D65, not 6500K. D65 is a particular color point (x .3127, y .3290), while 6500K is a RANGE of colors from cyan to magenta. Michael Chen (MichaelTLV here) demonstrated the differences years ago in photos on his website. As @stama has pointed out, it also takes some time to adapt to the new grayscale balance. And there isn't anything you can do about undersaturation if it exists in the display's native gamut. Once you have profiled the I1D3 to the spectro, you may see changes. Good luck.
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post #11 of 26 Old 04-16-2019, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If you aren't, you should be adjusting to D65, not 6500K. D65 is a particular color point (x .3127, y .3290), while 6500K is a RANGE of colors from cyan to magenta. Michael Chen (MichaelTLV here) demonstrated the differences years ago in photos on his website. As @stama has pointed out, it also takes some time to adapt to the new grayscale balance. And there isn't anything you can do about undersaturation if it exists in the display's native gamut. Once you have profiled the I1D3 to the spectro, you may see changes. Good luck.
Ah, I didn't know there was a difference between D65 & 6500K. In Calman, I am targeting 6500K in the CT & Gamma workflow i believe. Not sure how to target D65 but will Google is my friend ...

Did a 4 point saturation sweep using Ted's disc and workflow. Results were horrid - particularly red.

Started setting up my meters for profiling so hopefully will be in a better place.
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post #12 of 26 Old 04-16-2019, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Ah, I didn't know there was a difference between D65 & 6500K. In Calman, I am targeting 6500K in the CT & Gamma workflow i believe. Not sure how to target D65 but will Google is my friend ...

Did a 4 point saturation sweep using Ted's disc and workflow. Results were horrid - particularly red.

Started setting up my meters for profiling so hopefully will be in a better place.
No worries. When you get to the gray scale step, CalMAN will be adjusting to D65 unless you already specified a different white point.

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No worries. When you get to the gray scale step, CalMAN will be adjusting to D65 unless you already specified a different white point.
Yup, just checked - Calman states Colorspace Target as D65, HD Rec.709.

Cheers bud.
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post #15 of 26 Old 04-17-2019, 03:44 PM
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I was in the same, but a different boat..


I watched on "wrong" calibrated Plasma tvs.. around 6000 to 5500k color temp for years.. too warm..


When I started with calibration, I could not stand D65.. To me it was aggressive blue and I could not live with it..


So I started with a D55 calibration and later 6000k which I liked much more..


Weeks/months later I dont think D65 is cool anymore.. D65 is my only setting and my eyes have adjusted..


So when you think that D65 is too warm, then you are just used to a cooler color temp.. Maybe you watched it for years and think: What is wrong with the colors..





You might try using D75.. It is a cooler color temp but still a fixed reference white color point.. And for night mode D65.. and then you can switch around, and one day you will be adapted..
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post #16 of 26 Old 04-17-2019, 04:12 PM
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I have a spyder calibration device and have calibrated TVs and monitors, but I found the results not to my liking. The picture ends up dim and lifeless. I have given up on calibration and now I go with what looks best to my eyes.
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post #17 of 26 Old 04-17-2019, 04:30 PM
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I have a spyder calibration device and have calibrated TVs and monitors, but I found the results not to my liking. The picture ends up dim and lifeless. I have given up on calibration and now I go with what looks best to my eyes.
I hate to tell you this, but the Spyder series of meters are considered to be lacking. That may be why your results weren't good.
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post #18 of 26 Old 04-17-2019, 04:40 PM
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I hate to tell you this, but the Spyder series of meters are considered to be lacking. That may be why your results weren't good.
I bought this device before I researched products I bought. It wasn't an el-cheapo device (it cost about $200, not like $15), and they seemed to be a big name at the time, so I assumed it was a good product. Maybe I will revisit calibration some day. Right now, I can't afford any new electronics. That's OK, I just set up my projector and sound system at my current home and I'm loving it. Got my old system up and running and it's spectacular. Just happy to have a big screen running again.
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post #19 of 26 Old 04-17-2019, 05:59 PM
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Alternatively, if you have a friend with an iPro 2 you may be able to profile it and very likely it will improve the results.
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post #20 of 26 Old 04-17-2019, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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So, i started profiling my Colorimeter last night and ran into problems. May explain though :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57918024

Last edited by mombasa123; 04-17-2019 at 09:33 PM.
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post #21 of 26 Old 04-18-2019, 08:47 AM
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So, i started profiling my Colorimeter last night and ran into problems. May explain though :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57918024
With the results you've shown here and in the other thread regarding CS issues, I'm wondering if you might have inadvertently engaged "HDR+". It can be used with Movie mode, and as it defaults to the TV's Native gamut, will result in wildly oversaturated colors, particularly Red and Green...

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post #22 of 26 Old 04-20-2019, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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With the results you've shown here and in the other thread regarding CS issues, I'm wondering if you might have inadvertently engaged "HDR+". It can be used with Movie mode, and as it defaults to the TV's Native gamut, will result in wildly oversaturated colors, particularly Red and Green...
No definitely not. Besides my colors are wildly undersaturated
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post #23 of 26 Old 04-27-2019, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
There are zillions of posts on Colour temperature with Warm 1/2 being the 'correct' one to use but ......

I know the starting point in Calibration is to select the correct colour temperature but for the life of me, I just do not like Warm 1/2. Have been trying out Warm1 on my Q9FN for a week now while i wait for my meters to and blue skies and green grass do not look real at all. Both look off.

So question is, should i just calibrate with Standard colour temp or am i just a numpty barbarian?
Definitely make sure there are no other settings altering it too. I'm on a Sony, so unfortunately our UI will be different, but I was fairly aghast at how Expert 1 looked when I first got the TV. I tried for a week as well and just couldn't like it, so I actually switched and was watching Neutral on a while.

I made some other changes over time, namely increasing backlight brightness as I found SDR too dim, as well as turning off what the Sony calls X-Tended Dynamic Range (which is like converting SDR to HDR) as I found it was altering colors and flattening them, particularly for games, in a way that was really bothering me; took me forever to figure out the XDR was doing it. I also raised gamma slightly (to a target of 2.2 instead of 2.4).

Between those changes, I tried Expert 1 again on a whim, and low and behold I actually really like it now... Things actually look more natural. It took a little while to get used to it in certain content, like games, but I even like it better there as well, and it's less harsh on my eyes for bright white content.

So make sure no other settings could be interacting with your color temp to throw it off, that the picture is bright enough, etc.

And if you still don't like it, well...it's your TV. Mine is brighter than reference in SDR because I just find reference too darn dim. *shrugs* At the end of the day, there's no point in being miserable if you truly prefer watching another way (Now if I could just follow my own advice...). =oP
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post #24 of 26 Old 04-28-2019, 12:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. Yes I have all needless processing switched off.

In the middle of calibrating my Tv now that i have my meters and is looking better for saturation tracking but Color Luminance sucks so maybe thats where the issue is. 100% White is 180 nits (SDR) so plenty bright.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57965684
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post #25 of 26 Old 04-28-2019, 08:24 AM
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Ah, I didn't know there was a difference between D65 & 6500K. In Calman, I am targeting 6500K in the CT & Gamma workflow i believe. Not sure how to target D65 but will Google is my friend ...

Did a 4 point saturation sweep using Ted's disc and workflow. Results were horrid - particularly red.

Started setting up my meters for profiling so hopefully will be in a better place.



CalMAN will be calibrating to D65 as standard.


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post #26 of 26 Old 05-15-2019, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, despite my calibration nightmares, I have to say I am beginning to like / get used to Movie/Warm2 now.

The WB/GS on my panel is simply awesome after 21 point calibration (<0.18 de Average) and blue skies/white snow look natural now compared to the red/warm look i was moaning about. This is while watching NetFlix Frontier - havent had a chance to watch much else.

Color Space is rubbish on my set with grossly undersaturated Red

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...on-sweeps.html
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