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post #91 of 482 Old 07-05-2019, 08:39 AM
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Just to Clarify...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motociclao View Post
The trick was to change gamma to -3, I had a bunch of emails with tech support until we figured it out. What I meant on my previous post is that I changed the settings but left them at default after that.

Hopefully they add that to their guide/video.
Just wanted to clarify: You're saying if you change the gamma to -3, you won't get clipping at 100 using MobileForge?
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post #92 of 482 Old 07-05-2019, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryandhorn View Post
Just wanted to clarify: You're saying if you change the gamma to -3, you won't get clipping at 100 using MobileForge?
No, if you don't change gamma to -3 the autocal fails, this is for the KS8000 (maybe all 2016 TVs).

Without gamma -3: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58054034

With gamma -3: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58245966

This is what tech support sent me:
Quote:
We did some testing on similar hardware and are also getting some strange results. My QA team is going to do some more testing over the next few days and see if we can figure out what is going on.
Quote:
One of our engineers were able to get really solid results. Here's what he did:

"I used Full Field [for the patters, found under pattern generator tab] (workflow standard, but good to check)"
"I set meter to 5 samples to account for screen wibbly-wobblies (technical term)"
"I adjusted the DDC Gamma control using the grayscale page before running a multipoint grayscale to -3 (fully turned down)"
"I think the same result could be achieved by adjusting the target from BT.1886 to Power with an exponent that more closely matches the panel native setting."
He also had communication issues via the USB/serial connection using a USB hub. If you can go without a hub, that would be a good thing to do.

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post #93 of 482 Old 07-30-2019, 08:21 AM
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I search for my Samsung Nu8042 usb adaptor for autocal.
http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Sa...te%20Paper.pdf

Something like this.
Please let me know if you have. I would like to use autocal.

Thx
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post #94 of 482 Old 07-30-2019, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniu View Post
I search for my Samsung Nu8042 usb adaptor for autocal.
http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Sa...te%20Paper.pdf

Something like this.
Please let me know if you have. I would like to use autocal.

Thx
AFAIK, officially only the Samsung QLED sets (Q8, Q9) from that year can be autocal'ed. And CalMAN Samsung autocal also uses the Ex-Link port, which as you have posted before, is not on your TV. No Ex-Link, no autocal capability.

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post #95 of 482 Old 07-30-2019, 02:58 PM
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Sorry. You have right Thank you
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post #96 of 482 Old 08-04-2019, 08:31 AM
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Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitor/TV Calibration Targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryandhorn View Post
Just wanted to try and answer your second question. I'm a novice that just performed my first ever TV calibration using Calman Home for Samsung on a 55JU7500. I used a Spyder5 colorimeter, a Green-utech PL2303TA 6ft Usb Rs232 Serial to 3.5mm Stereo Aj Cable (from Amazon - for direct TV control) and Mobile Forge on a 2018 iPad Pro 12.9 (using AirPlay to my Apple TV connected to the TV to display the patterns).
Hi,

I will reply to some of your questions to clear up some stuff for better end calibration results for your setup.

About your AppleTV, to be able to output correctly the required patches, it will be required some settings from CalMAN and AppleTV.

Since you are using CalMAN's MobileForge to generate patterns for a TV, you will need to setup CalMAN to work in Video Levels (16-235), then in the MobileForge tab (Middle Tab at the top of CalMAN) the 'Expand to PC Levels' box needs to be checked, because the video output will get compressed at the end.

Whatever iPhone/iPad device which CalMAN's MobileForge is driving works in PC Levels, then each device converts to Video Levels when it pipes the generated pattern through the HDMI output.

When CalMAN will send command to generate 100% White 235.235.235 RGB Triplet to MobileForge App of iPhone, the iPhone will render it as 255.255.255 (RGB-Triplet) and AppleTV (with YCbCr output selected) will be compress to video levels 235.235.235 (RGB-Triplet) or 235.128.128 (YCbCr-Triplet).

So while you send PC Level RGB triplets (0-255) at the output of AppleTV will be 16-235.

Before enabling the AirPlay Mirroring, the AppleTV video output must be set to YCbCr colorspace. On the Apple TV menu, go to Settings > Audio & Video > HDMI Output > YCbCr.

AppleTV has additional colorspace video output options, RGB-High and RGB-Low, but using any RGB selection, the incorrect conversion math of internal processing will increase even more the digital errors to the device video output.

Apple TV devices with proper settings can generate any combination for TV Video Legal (16-235), but they can't generate for TV Video Legal Extended (16-255).

This automatically means that you can't check for Clipping with Peak White (which will require to generate patches for above 235, until 255 patterns) For that reason you see 1, because its already clipped due to conversion the ATV will do to output as I describe above.

This means that you can't check your Dynamic Range with only AppleTV and MobileForge, you will need to AirPlay from iPhone or network of ATV some video patterns (no still pictures, no stuff from applications, no youtube) and then verify your Dynamic range, as the standard for Grade-1 say, you need to leave 'headroom' up to maximum bit level, so when you will look a Contrast Pattern (and a color clipping pattern) the bars should flash above 235 (it to 109% Super White) and not clip to 235 (so to flash only below 100% Reference White).

For example when you adjust for Brightness, the 1-16 Flashing Bars need to be invisible, if the user will add +5 to his TV Brightness control to be able to see 17 level (0.5% Gray) Flashing Bar, this adjustment may have lift his TV native black level, when a Brightness Pattern will be generated from an AppleTV, which will clip to 16 all 1-16 levels due to compression of levels) the user can apply an incorrect adjustment because 1-15 Flashing Bars will always be invisible.

For that reason, Contrast pattern generated from AppleTV (MobileForge) will not able to display 235-235 Flashing Bars which is required when you want to check for clipping and headroom (109% Super White) since after the compression all bars 235-254 will become 235.

Setting Contrast, Brightness and checking for Color Clipping, are considered as the initial and very important steps for any calibration.

Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) suggest that you will still need a calibration disk, as he posted to AVSForum.com:



You need 'headroom' because post production studios are working the movies with peak output 100 nits with full range (0-255 RGB lets say in 8-bit for example) and when the content is ready they are scalling RGB-Full to RGB-Video....(until now the all levels are inside 16-235..so max level is 235, can't be higher).....but after that the signal is encoded and compressed to delivery using YCbCr (where some pixels of RGB Video can have different levels (higher from legal levels during conversion...even encoder settings can alter the levels) after YCbCr conversion....and when you playback the movie from your player is converting the signal from YCC 4:2:0 -> YCC 4:2:2 or YCC 4:4:4 or RGB-Video and when it enters to your display its converted again (for processing.....before to enter to internal factory LUTs will be convered to RGB, for some internal calibration controls processing it will require to be performed in YCbCr) until it re-converted at the final stage to RGB to go to the panel.

So after all these conversion, add the rounding errors from processing, from multiple colorspace conversions from..... maybe the 235 will go to 236 or 237 or 238 etc....or more..

As example see these pictures below, its still pictures from a quick test using Mission Impossible - Fallout (Blu-Ray) I performed, using a special LUT which will convert whole image pixels to red/yellow/white/cyan pixels.

When you see black pictures means that these pixels are within 16-235 range, yellow when there is a grey under 16, red when there is a RGB component under 16 , Cyan when there is a grey RGB over 235 and white when there is a RGB component over 235:











So when you clip your 'headroom' you see all this 'white pixels' of the above still picture clipped... while you watch these movie scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryandhorn View Post
I'd say on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the easiest, it's a 6/10 or 7/10 for a novice. The walkthrough for the software is a little off and confusing at points, though. Needs some corrections/clarification IMO. Here are my walkthrough notes:

5. Step 6 is more confusing than it needs to be, as it asks you to adjust the brightness to 15% above your target without telling you what your target should be. After research, looks like 100 is the standard peak luminance target, so 15% above that would be 115. I think the software should suggest targets for folks who don't know or understand this.
You can see the calibration standards there: Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitor/TV Calibration Targets

These are for reference viewing to a light controlled environment, for day viewing you can perform a secondary calibration with 200-300 nits, there no any standard, it has to do with about how much light you get during your during viewing from ceiling, or windows etc and how comfortable you feel.

Some rooms are OK with 200 nits others are OK with 300 nits.

The peak output for day calibration viewing as a secondary priority task, spend more time to have night viewing calibration more detailed/advanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryandhorn View Post
6. Step 9 will be the hardest part for novices like me, as the walkthrough is confusing and unclear:

6a. It says to "Adjust the display's Brightness and Contrast controls to set dynamic range" but it only explains how to adjust contrast. The instructions for adjusting brightness are literally, "Click the Brightness button to display the brightness pattern then adjust brightness manually." I have no idea what that means, but it's the grey box on a black screen so I assumed I make the brightness as low as possible without the center box disappearing entirely. I'm still not 100% sure if that's right.
The gray is +2, means 2% Gray, means 20 digital level. The background is 16 (16 is the reference black). Unfortunately you can't calibrate any brightness with that pattern.

You need a pattern where it will have flashing bars below 16 and also 17 (0.5% Gray), 18, 19, 20 etc.

But when you evaluate for Brightness, while you need the 16 and below bars to be invisible (same as background) and 17 and upper to flashing, you don't want your native display black level to be increased.

Since you have a colorimeter, another way to evaluate your near black performance without loosing your native black level; and find your best Brightness setting which will not lift your black level (reduce your contrast ratio); then display any Brightness Pattern and pause when the flashing bars are visible, so it will be come static pattern.

After that place your meter at the middle left area where you see total black (bars 2-10 as example) and take a black reading with your meter with your default setting, to see your native black level, keep that number as reference....then while you adjust the Brightness slider with +1, 2, 3, 4 etc. looking the same time the bars to be visible only 17 and upper, the purpose is that your final 'correct adjustment to be the one where while you will keep your native black levels, to be able to see correctly the same time the near black details.

A lot of time, users are adjusting their brightness control looking the flashing bars of a brightness patterns, sometimes they use incorrect adjustment while trying to display 17 bar, which it can lift the black level so this will provide poorer black level and lower contrast ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryandhorn View Post
6b. For the datapoint levels drop-down, I think you have to choose "Clipping" if you're using MobileForge. It defaults to "Clipping with Peak White," but no matter what I did per the instructions, the luminance graph plateaued at 1. If what I did was correct, the CalMAN should automatically default to "Clipping" in this step since the program already knows I'm using MobileForge (made by the same company).
The summary, as explained with super detail above, using MobileForge, you can check for 'Clipping' but not for 'Clipping with Peak White'.
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post #97 of 482 Old 08-04-2019, 06:34 PM
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I have a couple of questions, and I'm sorry if I've been unable to source the answer from any previous responses in this thread. I'm hoping someone may be able to point me in the direction of a For Dummies guide to calibrating my Samsung Q8fN. I thought it would by fun to give the DIY route a shot, and I'm quickly approaching the "I should have just enlisted the assistance of a pro dollars invested. Here's what I have. Can anyone chime in on what else I'll need?

  • I1 Display Pro (retail)
  • Calman Home for Samsung (+ all the cables and adapters)
  • Amazon Fire Stick 4k
  • MobileForge
  • Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc

Then there are my questions

  • I've been successful running an SDR autocal, but I question the results. First, I'm uncertain which target display type to use. The Calman guide states "QLED" but that's not an option with my i1 Display Pro. I'm assuming LCD (LED)?
  • Is it safe to assume that I won't be able to run an HDR autocal with Mobileforge running on the firestick forced to HDR?
  • Would I be able to use Mobileforge if I tossed an HD Fury Linker in the chain and injected HDR metadata?
  • Could I use the S&M UHD Benchemark for the HDR cal using my Oppo 203?
  • Unrelated to any of the above - I'm guessing even a manual calibration of the Game Mode on this display is a no-go what with the 20 point being grayed out. Correct?

Again. I'm sorry if any of this has been covered. If so, I'm just having trouble connecting any prior responses to my personal experience. I picked up this display as a dedicated gaming screen to take the wear and tear off my C7 and got the bug in my bum to calibrate it. At this point, though, I'm kind of wishing I'd have left well enough alone and dealt with the samsung-ness of the image. I'm not looking to toss a whole lot more money at this, but if it's worth it in the long run, I'll pony out for what else is needed.

Thanks for any input that can be provided.
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post #98 of 482 Old 08-04-2019, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
Then there are my questions

  • I've been successful running an SDR autocal, but I question the results. First, I'm uncertain which target display type to use. The Calman guide states "QLED" but that's not an option with my i1 Display Pro. I'm assuming LCD (LED)?
  • Is it safe to assume that I won't be able to run an HDR autocal with Mobileforge running on the firestick forced to HDR?
  • Would I be able to use Mobileforge if I tossed an HD Fury Linker in the chain and injected HDR metadata?
  • Could I use the S&M UHD Benchemark for the HDR cal using my Oppo 203?
  • Unrelated to any of the above - I'm guessing even a manual calibration of the Game Mode on this display is a no-go what with the 20 point being grayed out. Correct?

Again. I'm sorry if any of this has been covered. If so, I'm just having trouble connecting any prior responses to my personal experience. I picked up this display as a dedicated gaming screen to take the wear and tear off my C7 and got the bug in my bum to calibrate it. At this point, though, I'm kind of wishing I'd have left well enough alone and dealt with the samsung-ness of the image. I'm not looking to toss a whole lot more money at this, but if it's worth it in the long run, I'll pony out for what else is needed.

Thanks for any input that can be provided.
1. If in doubt, use "RAW XYZ". It uses the raw readings from the meter without filtering them through a possibly
incorrect EDR ("display type").

2. Nope. A device that only passes HDR but cannot by itself generate a complete HDR signal with metadata won't work.

3. You can use a device with MobileForge along with the Linker to provide HDR signals, but in RGB only. YCbCr for HDR
uses very different math than for SDR, and only 2 or 3 high-dollar pattern generators can currently do that. You'll also
need to make sure the MobileForge/hardware combo is sending out accurate RGB. Some don't.

4. I'm not sure the S&M Benchmark has all the patterns needed. Plus, it would be a manual calibration only unless you
were willing to sit there with a remote to manually call up all the hundreds of patterns needed - if they are even on the disc - for an autocal. Trust me, that is not something you really want to do!

5. Probably.
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post #99 of 482 Old 08-04-2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
Unrelated to any of the above - I'm guessing even a manual calibration of the Game Mode on this display is a no-go what with the 20 point being grayed out. Correct?
I don't have the Q8FN so I can't be certain, but I think you at least have access to 2 point white balance in Game mode, and you can measure to select the best Gamma setting. Are you also in PC mode, or not? If not in PC mode, you may also still have access to Color Space controls.
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post #100 of 482 Old 08-04-2019, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
1. If in doubt, use "RAW XYZ". It uses the raw readings from the meter without filtering them through a possibly
incorrect EDR ("display type").

2. Nope. A device that only passes HDR but cannot by itself generate a complete HDR signal with metadata won't work.

3. You can use a device with MobileForge along with the Linker to provide HDR signals, but in RGB only. YCbCr for HDR
uses very different math than for SDR, and only 2 or 3 high-dollar pattern generators can currently do that. You'll also
need to make sure the MobileForge/hardware combo is sending out accurate RGB. Some don't.

4. I'm not sure the S&M Benchmark has all the patterns needed. Plus, it would be a manual calibration only unless you
were willing to sit there with a remote to manually call up all the hundreds of patterns needed - if they are even on the disc - for an autocal. Trust me, that is not something you really want to do!

5. Probably.
All good info, but what do you recommend that he do?
@Reflex-Arc , I am not completely clear what you want to do. There are all sorts of levels of calibration you can get in to once you go down the rabbit hole. For starters, is SDR a priority or HDR is a priority?
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post #101 of 482 Old 08-04-2019, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
I have a couple of questions, and I'm sorry if I've been unable to source the answer from any previous responses in this thread. I'm hoping someone may be able to point me in the direction of a For Dummies guide to calibrating my Samsung Q8fN. I thought it would by fun to give the DIY route a shot, and I'm quickly approaching the "I should have just enlisted the assistance of a pro dollars invested. Here's what I have. Can anyone chime in on what else I'll need?

  • I1 Display Pro (retail)
  • Calman Home for Samsung (+ all the cables and adapters)
  • Amazon Fire Stick 4k
  • MobileForge
  • Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc

Then there are my questions

  • I've been successful running an SDR autocal, but I question the results. First, I'm uncertain which target display type to use. The Calman guide states "QLED" but that's not an option with my i1 Display Pro. I'm assuming LCD (LED)?
  • Is it safe to assume that I won't be able to run an HDR autocal with Mobileforge running on the firestick forced to HDR?
  • Would I be able to use Mobileforge if I tossed an HD Fury Linker in the chain and injected HDR metadata?
  • Could I use the S&M UHD Benchemark for the HDR cal using my Oppo 203?
  • Unrelated to any of the above - I'm guessing even a manual calibration of the Game Mode on this display is a no-go what with the 20 point being grayed out. Correct?

Again. I'm sorry if any of this has been covered. If so, I'm just having trouble connecting any prior responses to my personal experience. I picked up this display as a dedicated gaming screen to take the wear and tear off my C7 and got the bug in my bum to calibrate it. At this point, though, I'm kind of wishing I'd have left well enough alone and dealt with the samsung-ness of the image. I'm not looking to toss a whole lot more money at this, but if it's worth it in the long run, I'll pony out for what else is needed.

Thanks for any input that can be provided.

Hi mate

I emailed calMAN a few months ago with this very question and they advised that for my Q7 i should use LCD RGB

Everything else has been pretty much covered but if you are considering spending on the linker then it may be worth the small additional expense on a raspberry pi, discussed here:-

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...thread-10.html

Alternatively it may also be possible to use your oppo with Ryans patterns to conduct a HDR cal

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-patterns.html

With game mode you can still do a manual 2 point cal but yes 20 point is a no go

cheers
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post #102 of 482 Old 08-05-2019, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
...

2. Nope. A device that only passes HDR but cannot by itself generate a complete HDR signal with metadata won't work.
Thank you for all of that! I was afraid of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoth View Post
I don't have the Q8FN so I can't be certain, but I think you at least have access to 2 point white balance in Game mode, and you can measure to select the best Gamma setting. Are you also in PC mode, or not? If not in PC mode, you may also still have access to Color Space controls.
Good point. I'll do this in game mode. I'm also using this as an oversized PC monitor so I'll also need to look into calibrating that mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by highmr View Post
All good info, but what do you recommend that he do?
@Reflex-Arc , I am not completely clear what you want to do. There are all sorts of levels of calibration you can get in to once you go down the rabbit hole. For starters, is SDR a priority or HDR is a priority?
Considering this is primarily a gaming screen, I had been hoping to be able to calibrate my game modes, but it appears that isn't going to be 100% possible. Beyond that, I think I may have SDR mostly covered with my existing tools, yes? Moving forward, I'd say HDR is the priority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopples123 View Post
Hi mate

I emailed calMAN a few months ago with this very question and they advised that for my Q7 i should use LCD RGB

Everything else has been pretty much covered but if you are considering spending on the linker then it may be worth the small additional expense on a raspberry pi, discussed here:-

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...thread-10.html

Alternatively it may also be possible to use your oppo with Ryans patterns to conduct a HDR cal

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-patterns.html

With game mode you can still do a manual 2 point cal but yes 20 point is a no go

cheers
Brilliant! Thank you for the advice. I will look into these links.
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post #103 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 07:00 AM
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I've just got onto CalMAN Home and stuck on the meter profiling already. Am using Ted's disk for the patterns and XRite i1Pro2 Spectro & XRite i1Display Colorimeter. TV is 65 Q9FN. NB I haven't connected the TV to CalMAN yet for AutoCal.

Some questions please?

1) In "Add Profile" which Display Type should I choose? Can't see QLED in the dropdown so LCD(LED) or Raw XYX. Or, am I missing something?
2) With 'Prompt for Pattern Changes' on, the first popup says display (Red 71, Green 71, Blue 71). What pattern is that?
3) Should i use Native or Auto ColorSpace for profiling?
4) What stimulation/saturation level does CalMAN profiling screen expect? I've set Stim to 100% but not sure about Saturation. PS, if I set the pattern source to MobileForge (Firestick 4K), it seems to generate 75% saturation. Or does it not matter what the saturation % is as long as both ref and profiled meters use the same?

Thanks !
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post #104 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 08:56 AM
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Thanks again for all the advice, folks. I went ahead and purchased a Raspberry Pi and re-ran the Calman Home autocal using PGenerator and my i1display Display Pro set to LED (RGB) results are below.



I did also purchase an HD Fury Linker and followed the instructions for an HDR auto calibration, but I must have screwed up somewhere as the charts are all wonky and there's obvious red push in the image. I want to try again on that one.

All in all, I'm on the fence with my decision to give DIY calibration a try. I mean, for the money invested so far I'd have been well on my way to a pro calibration, and I'd be set. On the other hand, it's an interesting, if frustrating, learning process and something to do on a rainy afternoon.
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post #105 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
Thanks again for all the advice, folks. I went ahead and purchased a Raspberry Pi and re-ran the Calman Home autocal using PGenerator and my i1display Display Pro set to LED (RGB) results are below.



I did also purchase an HD Fury Linker and followed the instructions for an HDR auto calibration, but I must have screwed up somewhere as the charts are all wonky and there's obvious red push in the image. I want to try again on that one.

All in all, I'm on the fence with my decision to give DIY calibration a try. I mean, for the money invested so far I'd have been well on my way to a pro calibration, and I'd be set. On the other hand, it's an interesting, if frustrating, learning process and something to do on a rainy afternoon.
You should use "Raw XYZ" unless you have a display type setting specifically for the QLED...
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post #106 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 09:32 AM
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Thank you. I'll give it a shot. There was conflicting advice in the thread above for Raw/RGB. I had a 50/50 shot of getting it right.
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post #107 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
I've just got onto CalMAN Home and stuck on the meter profiling already. Am using Ted's disk for the patterns and XRite i1Pro2 Spectro & XRite i1Display Colorimeter. TV is 65 Q9FN. NB I haven't connected the TV to CalMAN yet for AutoCal.

Some questions please?

1) In "Add Profile" which Display Type should I choose? Can't see QLED in the dropdown so LCD(LED) or Raw XYX. Or, am I missing something?
2) With 'Prompt for Pattern Changes' on, the first popup says display (Red 71, Green 71, Blue 71). What pattern is that?
3) Should i use Native or Auto ColorSpace for profiling?
4) What stimulation/saturation level does CalMAN profiling screen expect? I've set Stim to 100% but not sure about Saturation. PS, if I set the pattern source to MobileForge (Firestick 4K), it seems to generate 75% saturation. Or does it not matter what the saturation % is as long as both ref and profiled meters use the same?

Thanks !
1. Choose RawXYZ. That'll give you output from the I1D3 with the least amount of filtering. And CalMAN will automatically switch to it anyway when you select the profile you've made.
3. Use Native.
4. The meter profiling app uses the same levels for both meters during profiling.

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post #108 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
1. Choose RawXYZ. That'll give you output from the I1D3 with the least amount of filtering. And CalMAN will automatically switch to it anyway when you select the profile you've made.
3. Use Native.
4. The meter profiling app uses the same levels for both meters during profiling.
Thanks, I think I will switch to PGenerator for meter profiling & Autocal and then use Ted's disk for polishing off.

Will reach out to Ted on #2 .
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post #109 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
You should use "Raw XYZ" unless you have a display type setting specifically for the QLED...
Hi mate

Not doubting what you say but why would calMAN advise differently when I contacted them directly with the same question?

cheers
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post #110 of 482 Old 08-12-2019, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
Thanks again for all the advice, folks. I went ahead and purchased a Raspberry Pi and re-ran the Calman Home autocal using PGenerator and my i1display Display Pro set to LED (RGB) results are below.



I did also purchase an HD Fury Linker and followed the instructions for an HDR auto calibration, but I must have screwed up somewhere as the charts are all wonky and there's obvious red push in the image. I want to try again on that one.

All in all, I'm on the fence with my decision to give DIY calibration a try. I mean, for the money invested so far I'd have been well on my way to a pro calibration, and I'd be set. On the other hand, it's an interesting, if frustrating, learning process and something to do on a rainy afternoon.
Hi mate

With HDR i found that when using the linker to engage HDR mode it sometimes would stay within rec709 even with hdr mode engaged and not switch to DCI-P3. I had to enable the info frame a certain way to get it to work correctly.

I no longer have the linker but it was something like

select avtop controller within calman, enable HDR10, leave everything else, that's the infoframe we use.

Factory Reset Linker
paste custom HDR infoframe
Send IF
Paste custom avi
tick the enable avi box then wait, the tv would say invalid signal
once the TV says invalid signal then click send avi button




even with this method it was not a 100% success rate

best of luck


cheers
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post #111 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 01:01 AM
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@tyler

Why does CalMAN Home ask for pattern (Red 71, Green 71, Blue 71) when profiling a meter manually (ie with 'Prompt for Pattern Changes' ticked?

From CalMAN docs :

Select Multi Pass to position first one meter then the other at a selected position on the display screen. The CalMAN Meter Profile process then prompts you to measure the display with both your spectrophotometer and your colorimeter. Each meter measures four colors in just seconds; white, red, green, and blue.

ie should only ask for WRGB no?

Also, if i use MobileForge, then each primary is preceded by a gray pattern. Not sure what's going on.

Also, can you give a definitive answer as to what Display Type should be selected for QLED in the profiling screen? RR says 'Raw XYZ' but others indicate LCD(LED). Surprised that QLED is not supported directly when OLED is

Cheers

Thanks
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post #112 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
@tyler

Why does CalMAN Home ask for pattern (Red 71, Green 71, Blue 71) when profiling a meter manually (ie with 'Prompt for Pattern Changes' ticked?

From CalMAN docs :

Select Multi Pass to position first one meter then the other at a selected position on the display screen. The CalMAN Meter Profile process then prompts you to measure the display with both your spectrophotometer and your colorimeter. Each meter measures four colors in just seconds; white, red, green, and blue.

ie should only ask for WRGB no?

Also, if i use MobileForge, then each primary is preceded by a gray pattern. Not sure what's going on.

Also, can you give a definitive answer as to what Display Type should be selected for QLED in the profiling screen? RR says 'Raw XYZ' but others indicate LCD(LED). Surprised that QLED is not supported directly when OLED is

Cheers

Thanks
Nvm -found out the answers from Ted.

Frame insertion looks to be enabled hence the gray screens in between. IDisplay Pro does not support QLED so best to stick to Raw XYZ as per Rolls & Ted
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post #113 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 05:10 AM
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Hi mate

Not doubting what you say but why would calMAN advise differently when I contacted them directly with the same question?

cheers
See post 123 from @mombasa123 above. In addition, long ago I checked the LCD/LED EDRs against my I1 Pro 2 on our KS8000 (also quantum dot, what Samsung calls QLED today). None of them read really close enough to the Pro 2 to suit me.
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post #114 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
See post 123 from @mombasa123 above. In addition, long ago I checked the LCD/LED EDRs against my I1 Pro 2 on our KS8000 (also quantum dot, what Samsung calls QLED today). None of them read really close enough to the Pro 2 to suit me.
Thanks mate, guess I need to go back and have a look at my cal then lol

I wonder why calMAN themselves would say differently? perhaps Tyler could confirm

For those interested my question to calMAN and there response is attached
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post #115 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 05:39 AM
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Thanks mate, guess I need to go back and have a look at my cal then lol

I wonder why calMAN themselves would say differently? perhaps Tyler could confirm

For those interested my question to calMAN and there response is attached
In the now-defunct SpectraCal forums, I remember seeing changing recommendations for EDRs on displays as time progressed and more experience was gained with them. Their answers are going to be in terms of "best fit", as if you were buying clothes off a rack. As I mentioned previously, none of the LCD or LED EDRs was a close enough match to the I1 Pro 2 that I felt comfortable using them. Each was close in some aspects, farther out in others. For instance, very close in red and green but a bit farther out in blue. Or vice-versa. I don't have numbers, as it was just quick testing to satisfy myself before building a profile and was early in 2017.
By the way, revisions A and B of the I1 Display Pro - I1D3 - use exactly the same EDRs, so a stock Rev. B doesn't have a QLED-specific EDR either. That currently is only for the CalMAN C6, which Portrait produces their own EDRs for. A non-C6 meter cannot use them.
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post #116 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 07:35 AM
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So, here's my profiled Display Pro. Looks v good apart from Red which is further out than the rest - within tolerances or do I need to do it again ?
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post #117 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 08:15 AM
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Thanks again for all the advice, folks. I went ahead and purchased a Raspberry Pi and re-ran the Calman Home autocal using PGenerator and my i1display Display Pro set to LED (RGB) results are below.

Hi, when you perform Manual calibration or AutoCAL with display where it has 10-Point RGB balance, after the end of the calibration always verify the results with 21-Point Grayscale.

You will have more detailed verification of your calibration.

Also always check Contrast/Brightness and a Grayscale Ramp to evaluate the post-calibration results, because adjustments to close calibration points which can affect your near black performance (10% Gray to your 10-Point) or to near 100% Reference White (90% Gray of your 10-Point) can affect your near black or white levels. There displays for example where if you change with positive values the 100% White controls, they will be introduced color shades to levels above 100% Reference White (100-109% Super White area).

For all these details you need to evaluate... to be sure that all are fine.

When you calibrate a display with any way, you will have better results when you will count to your applied values..... to have more linear adjustments decisions per color channel in Grayscale.

You can write all values to a note or excel to take a look what is happening from control to control, becasue

.....while the dE results can be good....the same time you can have banding or discoloration to grayscale ramp....

...problems can be introduced from large scale adjustments of calibration control points to near-by calibration controls... when there not enough bits to close adjustment steps when color channels randomly will be adjusted from point to point with large scale...as a quick example...

Normal menu White Balance settings combined with White Balance values of Service Menu settings combined with CMS settings (then 3x3 transformation matrix LUT used from native to REC.709).... all they work together to the internal TV algorithm which will apply all these adjustments for your video signal..and after many multiple colorspace conversions and processing stages....your video signal will finally drive the panel pixels.....

When more random adjustments you will feed the processor per each calibration control ...this can make the internal processing algorithm more complex.... when the image processor will have to combine all these adjustments to create one global adjustment.

So even charts will look good, a more linear applied adjustment can have much better results visually but to the charts you can have the exact same dE numbers.....

There a lot of times where an expect calibrator can allow a bit higher dE to a specific calibration control, something it will help to prevent such issues which can come from internal processing.

For that reason a professional spend so many hours to just calibrate so few calibration controls, while he has faster meters and supposed the procedure to be faster.... He will look all these details a typical DIY will not ever bothered to check, when someone will only look the wonderful charts only.

All these tips above effect all calibrations general, not only you specifically, but its an advice for improving your specific calibration also.

You can post again what you see after you measured your 21-Point Grayscale with CalMAN and report back with some new charts and some comments about what you saw after a Contrast/Brightness/Color Ramp pattern evaluation.

RAW XYZ?

The i1Display PRO is not coming with any table for a Quantum Dot display type. There no correct answer what to select for your calibration, since for LCD LED EDR table, X-Rite used for these spectral samples some HP/SOYO PC monitors from 2011.

Someone has to measure all the available spectral correction modes of i1Display PRO with the same mode display as you have using a spectro and report back which selection is closer to his spectro. This may help a lot of other users with no capability to have their own spectro at home, but have only i1DisplayPRO.

The called 'RAW XYZ' mode is the default factory calibration, looks safer idea, but to improve your color accuracy, you will need to profile your colorimeter using a spectro.

Technically speaking, as its an AVScience forum here, that mode should not be called as RAW XYZ since 'RAW XYZ' means unfiltered sensor's sensitivity data directly from the meter's sensors (un-altered)....but that selection we see as 'RAW XYZ' is applying the default factory calibration that X-Rite has characterize the meter's sensor sensitivity data to its factory... to emulate a general near CMF response, so as the (native) RAW sensor data are altered by that 1nm response correction that X-Rite apply to the factory, when they will compare each meter sensor response using an monochromator or integrating sphere methods (these are the only two ways the meter can be calibrated internally) and load that data inside to meter's memory, then its not should called as 'RAW XYZ'

A more technical correct description of that table should be 'Near-CMF Factory Calibration', now its called incorrectly as ''RAW XYZ'', from 2011 basically.
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S/W: ColourSpace INF, LightSpace XTP, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, ChromaPure
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box P/G: Murideo Six-G, DVDO AVLab TPG
Meter: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A
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post #118 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 08:32 AM
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So, here's my profiled Display Pro. Looks v good apart from Red which is further out than the rest - within tolerances or do I need to do it again ?



Hi,

That workflow page has confused a lot of people, because its been designed incorrectly.

When we very for meter profile, we have to compare the 4 xyY readings of Reference Meter to tracking with xy +-0.001 and +-2% Luminance difference the 4 xyY readings of the Profiled meter. (per NIST specs.)

When you will look only that data, and compare these numbers, you are ok. You meter profile is verified and its valid according to your posted data. When we look only that data of the page we are cool, and they are correct displayed.

The problem with the design of that workflow is the the whole chart area display data which confuse the users, the reason is that you see only the WRGB patch readings of one meter only, as you see there empty the bars for the second meter, so why these charts are available here?

They are not providing any help... The user don't know what exact to look for, for that reason you asked that question here, correct? Looking the charts you see 4 dE bars only and one dot per color to each CIE Chart, the RGB, Luminance etc.

That layout page which has been added to 2019 workflows of CalMAN, for meter profiling users, need a re-design to make the charts display data from both meters.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration S/W: LightSpace ZRO / HCFR
S/W: ColourSpace INF, LightSpace XTP, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, ChromaPure
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box P/G: Murideo Six-G, DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #119 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 08:41 AM
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Hi,

That workflow page has confused a lot of people, because its been designed incorrectly.

When we very for meter profile, we have to compare the 4 xyY readings of Reference Meter to tracking with xy +-0.001 and +-2% Luminance difference the 4 xyY readings of the Profiled meter. (per NIST specs.)

When you will look only that data, and compare these numbers, you are ok. You meter profile is verified and its valid according to your posted data. When we look only that data of the page we are cool, and they are correct displayed.

The problem with the design of that workflow is the the whole chart area display data which confuse the users, the reason is that you see only the WRGB patch readings of one meter only, as you see there empty the bars for the second meter, so why these charts are available here?

They are not providing any help... The user don't know what exact to look for, for that reason you asked that question here, correct? Looking the charts you see 4 dE bars only and one dot per color to each CIE Chart, the RGB, Luminance etc.

That layout page which has been added to 2019 workflows of CalMAN, for meter profiling users, need a re-design to make the charts display data from both meters.
Agreed, the charts are useless - spent a bit of time trying to figure out what they were showing and came to the 'useless' conclusion and ignored. I looked at just the numbers - which look good as you say.
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post #120 of 482 Old 08-13-2019, 08:50 AM
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RAW XYZ?

The i1Display PRO is not coming with any table for a Quantum Dot display type. There no correct answer what to select for your calibration, since for LCD LED EDR table, X-Rite used for these spectral samples some HP/SOYO PC monitors from 2011.

Someone has to measure all the available spectral correction modes of i1Display PRO with the same mode display as you have using a spectro and report back which selection is closer to his spectro. This may help a lot of other users with no capability to have their own spectro at home, but have only i1DisplayPRO.

The called 'RAW XYZ' mode is the default factory calibration, looks safer idea, but to improve your color accuracy, you will need to profile your colorimeter using a spectro.

Technically speaking, as its an AVScience forum here, that mode should not be called as RAW XYZ since 'RAW XYZ' means unfiltered sensor's sensitivity data directly from the meter's sensors (un-altered)....but that selection we see as 'RAW XYZ' is applying the default factory calibration that X-Rite has characterize the meter's sensor sensitivity data to its factory... to emulate a general near CMF response, so as the (native) RAW sensor data are altered by that 1nm response correction that X-Rite apply to the factory, when they will compare each meter sensor response using an monochromator or integrating sphere methods (these are the only two ways the meter can be calibrated internally) and load that data inside to meter's memory, then its not should called as 'RAW XYZ'

A more technical correct description of that table should be 'Near-CMF Factory Calibration', now its called incorrectly as ''RAW XYZ'', from 2011 basically.
So, just to confirm Ted, use Raw XYZ as Display type when profiling QLED right? Cuz nothing in the available types comes close to matching QLED as per Rolls.
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