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post #301 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 07:28 AM
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Calman Home for Sony 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
After my new calibration this evening, I was now using a new Picture Mode (Custom for Pro2), and a new Color Temperature (Expert2).



Once the calibration has completed, you must pay close attention to making sure the new settings are being used in every mode you are watching. This can be extremely tedious, but if you don't pay attention, you will be watching different content with different settings.



For example, If you use more than one HDMI input, each HDMI input has unique Picture Mode and Color temp settings. Make sure you set each HDMI input for the proper Picture Mode and Color temp.



Also, make sure you check the TV apps (Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc.). Each app has its own Picture Mode and Color Temp settings. And to make things worse, the Per Color Adjustments must be manually adjusted for every mode you use in the app, e.g. HD, Dolby Vision Dark, Dolby Vision Bright and Netflix Calibrated mode. Talk about a PITA--try re-entering Per Color adjustments for each of these four Nexflix viewing modes. Same for Amazon Prime--check all the potential picture modes to see if the settings are correct.



Finally, check your external devices like AppleTV. You may need to adjust settings for HD, HDR and Dolby Vision for these sources as well.



Every time I run a new calibration, it takes me at least an hour to synchronize all these settings, and I am always afraid I have missed a setting somewhere. There must be an easier way!


Morning. I’ve simplified my life by routing everything through an AVR into HDMI 3 of the Sony. I pretty much either use my AppleTV 4k for streaming or the Panasonic UBD820 for disks. Anything HDR10 uses whatever I set the first time and anything DV whichever DV settings I use the first time. I rarely use the TV apps (though it’s actually nice that the apps can have/store unique setting selections). My Harmony routines change the AVR input but route everything out one AVR output to one input on the TV.

I will add that the combination of these components and my configuration is the the MOST stable setup I’ve ever had. Everything is working 100%. The Denon X4500h is outstanding as is the Panny UDH player. The ATV just keeps getting better. My newest Z9F is better than my first for uniformity (ZERO DSE).


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SONY Z9F LCD Master Series Owners Thread
Vizio 2016 P series FAQ, general info and Help
Sony Z9F 75, Vizio P75C1 UHD/HDR/DV, Pioneer Elite SC-95, Samsung UHD Bluray K8500, AppleTV 4K, CC Ultra
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post #302 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
Appreciated. In the meantime, I’m avoiding any 1080p input to the display and feeding 100% native 4k from a Panny 820 or an ATV4k.


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Now I need to try this as well. I have three primary content sources. My AppleTV is set to output 2160p through my Marantz 8802a, which has up-scaling turned off. Same for my OPPO 203–2160p with Marantz up-scaling turned off. And finally, I watch a lot of content from DirecTV, which outputs its signal at 1080i. I am using the Marantz up-scaler to convert to 2160p before sending the signal to the Sony. I will be watching closely today to see if I prefer the Marantz up-scaling to the Sony up-scaling.
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post #303 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you have compared with patterns of S&M disks that your source is doing better upscalling from the Sony's internal upscale, then its fine

Panasonic may do better job but I don't believe the same for ATV.
I always appreciate your willingness to provide detailed explanations. I have the S&M disks (both the new one and the previous version). If you would be so kind, could you provide a brief description of which S&M test patterns to use in order to determine which devices are doing the best job of upscaling? I think the S&M disks are outstanding, but find the lack of instructions on how to use the disks to be somewhat frustrating. Any help would be appreciated.
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post #304 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
Morning. I’ve simplified my life by routing everything through an AVR into HDMI 3 of the Sony. I pretty much either use my AppleTV 4k for streaming or the Panasonic UBD820 for disks. Anything HDR10 uses whatever I set the first time and anything DV whichever DV settings I use the first time. I rarely use the TV apps (though it’s actually nice that the apps can have/store unique setting selections). My Harmony routines change the AVR input but route everything out one AVR output to one input on the TV.

I will add that the combination of these components and my configuration is the the MOST stable setup I’ve ever had. Everything is working 100%. The Denon X4500h is outstanding as is the Panny UDH player. The ATV just keeps getting better. My newest Z9F is better than my first for uniformity (ZERO DSE).


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What you are doing makes sense. I route everything through my Marantz, so I only have one HDMI input into the Sony to worry about. But the thing I found frustrating is that if you calibrate to a new color temp, say Expert2, you have to make sure Expert2 is selected for each of the signal types (HD, HDR, Dolby Vision), regardless of the fact that you are using only one HDMI input. And to make things worse, the Per Color Adjustments are not memorized in the color temp setting. If you change from Expert1 to Expert2, you must manually enter the Per Color settings associated with Expert2. Have you noticed this behavior? It is very easy to overlook.
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post #305 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 11:40 AM
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With reference to @ConnecTEDDD 's explanation above(post #294 ), I recently bought a DVDO AVlab TPG. In addition to being an accurate TPG it also has an invaluable function as a colorcheker. For the last couple of days I have been trying to see if I can generate bit accurate patters using my Acer Predator Helios 300 laptop which has an Intel graphics UHD 630 and NVidia 1050TI. However, the external monitor is always on the NVidia card. My earlier MSI laptop had the ability to run an external monitor on the Intel graphics.

So far I have been unable to get bit perfect patterns. I tried the windows 10 microsoft driver, latest Nvidia game experience driver and also the Studio experience driver. There is one combination that I can get bit perfect and that is when I set the output of the NVidia card to 0-255 pc level and also the program outputting it(lightspace) to 0-255. When I change either one to 16-235, the accuracy is gone. I am still trying to see if there is anything I can do to get bit perfect triplets at TV level.
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post #306 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I always appreciate your willingness to provide detailed explanations. I have the S&M disks (both the new one and the previous version). If you would be so kind, could you provide a brief description of which S&M test patterns to use in order to determine which devices are doing the best job of upscaling? I think the S&M disks are outstanding, but find the lack of instructions on how to use the disks to be somewhat frustrating. Any help would be appreciated.
http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...color-space-2/

http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...color-space-3/

See the samples there:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58422994

and quote Stacey for any question.

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post #307 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Every time I run a new calibration, it takes me at least an hour to synchronize all these settings, and I am always afraid I have missed a setting somewhere. There must be an easier way!
Unfortunately it's a major weakness of Sony.
Panasonic provides a menu to copy the settings to any input you choose from a list.
LG and Samsung provide "apply to all settings" options.
It's just Sony that makes it ridiculously difficult
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post #308 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 01:48 PM
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Thanks, I'll read up on these right away.
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post #309 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Unfortunately it's a major weakness of Sony.
Panasonic provides a menu to copy the settings to any input you choose from a list.
LG and Samsung provide "apply to all settings" options.
It's just Sony that makes it ridiculously difficult
Yes, it would be nice if settings could be copied to all inputs. Problem is, unless someone knows to dig deep, they may not be even aware of the inconsistencies in the settings.
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post #310 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 02:34 PM
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When you are using a VGA with software patch generation solution, the VGA will send to your display Full Range signal (RGB-Data levels 0-255) and your software pattern generator will send 16-235 patterns, but the display don't know what is you are using RGB-Video values, as the user with Sony AF9 is reporting here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58521732

...the TV switching the levels when you change picture modes via CalMAN App.

You have to always check that your display will expect Video levels since the PC while it will send AVI infoFrame packet for RGB signaling, it will not send the correct RGB Quantization Range value, I mean it send the correct (for PC levels) just the procedure you perform by using 16 as black and 235 as White can't be identified by the display.

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post #311 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 03:27 PM
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Thanks Ted. That explains why I see bit perfect patterns only when my video card is set to full range and the software is also set to full range. Any other combination gives errors.
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post #312 of 403 Old 09-06-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vishwa Somayaji View Post
Thanks Ted. That explains why I see bit perfect patterns only when my video card is set to full range and the software is also set to full range. Any other combination gives errors.
When you check the digital pixel levels with DVDO, it doesn't matter what the display will understand, since you are measuring the signal before go to your TV HDMI Input. So even if the TV display correct or incorrect the levels while you are checking the digital values it will not affect your testing.

The point of my post was that always the user has to check the input levels setting of his Sony AF9, as the other user of Sony reported that its been changed when he was switching picture modes.

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post #313 of 403 Old 09-07-2019, 04:36 PM
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Following @thomasfxlt 's recommendation, I have configured my Marantz 8802a to output a 4K signal on all inputs to the Z9F. The Marantx up-scaler has three settings, "4K", "4K (50/60)", and "Auto". All three settings produce the same up-scaled signal. Using the Marantz web interface, I can view the incoming and outgoing resolutions as follows:

AppleTV (configured for "Dolby Vision" output):



Oppo 203 (configured for "Auto" for all video output settings):



DirecTV HR54 (which has a fixed output of 1080i for all channels):



And finally, I hooked the new laptop to an HDMI input on the Marantz:




The laptop output has me somewhat concerned. It is outputting the test patterns for CalMAN as RGB 4:4:4, while the output for all the other sources is YCbCr 4:4:4. There is no way to select RGB on the AppleTV or the DirecTV devices.

And what does "4K Half" mean? I would be interested in hearing from others as to whether these results are OK or not.
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"4K Half" means 24Hz/30Hz, as opposed to 50Hz/60Hz. Ie half bandwidth required.

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post #315 of 403 Old 09-07-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
"4K Half" means 24Hz/30Hz, as opposed to 50Hz/60Hz. Ie half bandwidth required.
Thanks. So I assume that doesn't adversely affect the 4K test patterns I am using for a calibration, correct?
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post #316 of 403 Old 09-08-2019, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks. So I assume that doesn't adversely affect the 4K test patterns I am using for a calibration, correct?
Measure 8bit RGB 2160p24 vs. 8bit RGB 2160p60 patterns to see if there any difference.

To the LG OLED, the frame rate can affect the readings:

Differences between patch generation framerates of HDMI Input Video Signal

Differences between YCbCr and RGB-Video Colorspaces of HDMI Input

The fact that you are using untested patch generation solutions has more impact to your results. Now you have spend money to calibration software/hardware but you have never tested if the patterns you are using are accurate. The most important details is that one, since all your calibration decisions will be based to your pattern accuracy. If you confirm that are accurate then your calibration report is valid, if they are inaccurate you have to find other way generating them.

Even MobileForge which designed for that reason, to work as reference low cost solution, its proven by various users who tested that is not accurate with any supported device: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...thread-10.html

The only way to have accurate patterns (low-cost) with CalMAN is by using Rasberry Pi based PGenerator (free) ROM ISO and use it from inside CalMAN, so there will no need to test anything since a lot of people have tested with signal analysers and its bit-perfect for RGB-Video patch generation.

The Sony, if you have selected to have HDMI Limited before starting the calibration, it will switch to Auto when you will start the calibration. You have to manual select back to Limited, this is happening when you send Full RGB signal but using 16-235 levels., as explained above, TV don't know if you are using 0 black or 16 black.
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post #317 of 403 Old 09-08-2019, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Measure 8bit RGB 2160p24 vs. 8bit RGB 2160p60 patterns to see if there any difference.

To the LG OLED, the frame rate can affect the readings:

Differences between patch generation framerates of HDMI Input Video Signal

Differences between YCbCr and RGB-Video Colorspaces of HDMI Input

The fact that you are using untested patch generation solutions has more impact to your results. Now you have spend money to calibration software/hardware but you have never tested if the patterns you are using are accurate. The most important details is that one, since all your calibration decisions will be based to your pattern accuracy. If you confirm that are accurate then your calibration report is valid, if they are inaccurate you have to find other way generating them.

Even MobileForge which designed for that reason, to work as reference low cost solution, its proven by various users who tested that is not accurate with any supported device: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...thread-10.html

The only way to have accurate patterns (low-cost) with CalMAN is by using Rasberry Pi based PGenerator (free) ROM ISO and use it from inside CalMAN, so there will no need to test anything since a lot of people have tested with signal analysers and its bit-perfect for RGB-Video patch generation.

The Sony, if you have selected to have HDMI Limited before starting the calibration, it will switch to Auto when you will start the calibration. You have to manual select back to Limited, this is happening when you send Full RGB signal but using 16-235 levels., as explained above, TV don't know if you are using 0 black or 16 black.
Hi Ted,

I would be very careful with frame rate grayscale variations on WRGB based OLEDs. Please make sure you are taking into account the repeatability deltas of your meter along with the inherent instability of WRGB displays. IMO, your first link differences are within a colormeter’s repeatability delta. YCbCr and RGB-Video use definitely a problem even though is should not be (bad maths).
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post #318 of 403 Old 09-08-2019, 09:28 AM
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Hi Ted,

I would be very careful with frame rate grayscale variations on WRGB based OLEDs. Please make sure you are taking into account the repeatability deltas of your meter along with the inherent instability of WRGB displays. IMO, your first link differences are within a colormeter’s repeatability delta. YCbCr and RGB-Video use definitely a problem even though is should not be (bad maths).
Hi D-Nice,

About the frame rate differences, it was not a problem as its was measured with K-10A and the difference was there even if the test repeated many times.

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post #319 of 403 Old 09-08-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi D-Nice,

About the frame rate differences, it was not a problem as its was measured with K-10A and the difference was there even if the test repeated many times.
Correct, it is not an issue. I see the same thing here and chalk it up to meter repeatability/WRGB OLED instability..... even with the same frame rate.
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Correct, it is not an issue. I see the same thing here and chalk it up to meter repeatability/WRGB OLED instability..... even with the same frame rate.
I haven't tested Sony to see what is doing.

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guys I need your help...

my laptop broke and I can't even get it starting. Bought a new one and tried to install camlan home sony on my new laptop to start a calibration session. The problem is, I can not deactive my calman licence on my old laptop to be able to install it on my new laptop. I allready sent 3 emails ot portrait displays support but I never got an answer. Is there a way to deactivate my licene for my old laptop, without getting into the old calman installation?
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guys I need your help...

my laptop broke and I can't even get it starting. Bought a new one and tried to install camlan home sony on my new laptop to start a calibration session. The problem is, I can not deactive my calman licence on my old laptop to be able to install it on my new laptop. I allready sent 3 emails ot portrait displays support but I never got an answer. Is there a way to deactivate my licene for my old laptop, without getting into the old calman installation?
Hi, there nothing you can do from your side, as the de-activation has to performed on-line from the broken notebook.

If you find someone to talk, he has to reset your license, so to be able to re-activate from the new notebook.

Have you contact using that form? : https://www.portrait.com/contact-support/

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post #324 of 403 Old 09-12-2019, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you find someone to talk, he has to reset your license, so to be able to re-activate from the new notebook.

Have you contact using that form? : https://www.portrait.com/contact-support/
yes I did... strange, got no response. I will try it again. Thanks anyway.
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post #325 of 403 Old 09-12-2019, 10:03 AM
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yes I did... strange, got no response. I will try it again. Thanks anyway.
Here is the link I recently used to deactivate my license and transfer it to a new laptop: https://kb.portrait.com/help/deactiv...calman-license

However, it seems Ted is correct--the old laptop must still be functional in order to follow this procedure. Strange that they would design a procedure with a Catch-22.
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post #326 of 403 Old 09-12-2019, 02:39 PM
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Here is the link I recently used to deactivate my license and transfer it to a new laptop: https://kb.portrait.com/help/deactiv...calman-license



However, it seems Ted is correct--the old laptop must still be functional in order to follow this procedure. Strange that they would design a procedure with a Catch-22.


One quick email to support and we will reset it.

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post #327 of 403 Old 09-28-2019, 02:57 PM
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After my new calibration this evening, I was now using a new Picture Mode (Custom for Pro2), and a new Color Temperature (Expert2).

Once the calibration has completed, you must pay close attention to making sure the new settings are being used in every mode you are watching. This can be extremely tedious, but if you don't pay attention, you will be watching different content with different settings.

For example, If you use more than one HDMI input, each HDMI input has unique Picture Mode and Color temp settings. Make sure you set each HDMI input for the proper Picture Mode and Color temp.

Also, make sure you check the TV apps (Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc.). Each app has its own Picture Mode and Color Temp settings. And to make things worse, the Per Color Adjustments must be manually adjusted for every mode you use in the app

[...]
Every time I run a new calibration, it takes me at least an hour to synchronize all these settings, and I am always afraid I have missed a setting somewhere. There must be an easier way!
I agree. It's a RIDICULOUS amount of work. Most other manufacturers offer a "copy to all inputs" function. As a minimum, we have
HDMI input "day"
HDMI input "night"
Netflix "day"
Netflix "night"
Amazon Video "day"
Amazon Video "night"

...and that's for someone running all their HDMI inputs through an AVR to a single socket on the TV.
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post #328 of 403 Old 09-28-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I agree. It's a RIDICULOUS amount of work. Most other manufacturers offer a "copy to all inputs" function. As a minimum, we have
HDMI input "day"
HDMI input "night"
Netflix "day"
Netflix "night"
Amazon Video "day"
Amazon Video "night"

...and that's for someone running all their HDMI inputs through an AVR to a single socket on the TV.
The old Toshiba CRT RPTVs were like that too. Every input had to be individually calibrated, in the Service Menu. And they used hexadecimal code values. Fun, Fun, Fun.

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post #329 of 403 Old 09-28-2019, 05:00 PM
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The old Toshiba CRT RPTVs were like that too. Every input had to be individually calibrated, in the Service Menu. And they used hexadecimal code values. Fun, Fun, Fun.
Sounds it! And now we're talking about 20 x RGB values for a White Balance (60 values), and each of those 60 is many tedious presses of buttons on the remote control. That's many hundreds of button presses for ONE input and ONE mode.

And it's 2019. An old Toshiba can be forgiven. Sony in 2019 on the other hand?

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post #330 of 403 Old 09-28-2019, 05:14 PM
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It could be worse. At least the 20-point Advance Color Temperature settings don’t need to be re-entered.
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