Calman Home for Sony 2019 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 41 Old 05-12-2019, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Why should I set contrast to 90 for SDR? Setting contrast to 90 or 100 or anything actually, results in the exact same graph results in the contrast checker, everything hits 100 and goes flat like my dead grandmother.

I set contrast to 91 for my HDR10 in HCFR, because it assisted in keeping my luminance closer to the curve prior to adjusting 2 and 10 point.

Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
For the Sony, when you calibrate CM sets Contrast to 100% and then resets it back to 90 which is where you should leave it. The contrast layout in CM is to check if the set is clipping. If it is, (it shouldn't be), you can lower the contrast to correct it.

The HDR layout in the workflow is there to validate HDR. You always want to validate to make sure your SDR calibration and automatic HDR offsets are correct. They would have one for Dolby Vision but there are no generators able to trigger it.

Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #32 of 41 Old 05-12-2019, 06:31 AM
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If you use CM autocal, setting the contrast to 100 during calibration will enable the TV to line up with the IREs in the workflow.

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post #33 of 41 Old 05-12-2019, 09:03 AM
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HI,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Category 5 View Post
Thanks WiFi Spy. I did as suggested. After getting a little higher error in the final cal than I liked, I went back and tried to get the pre cal closer to flat by adjusting the RGB gain and RGB offset controls first, then the calibration itself got about .6 average delta, and didn't bury the blue and green like it was before.

Dolby Vision and HDR look darker than I'd like, but SOny bases the HDR calibration on the SDR grayscale, and to be honest they were dark to start with.

SDR looks great, and my color balance looks rich and warm now. Even Expert 1 is way too blue/green on my set.

Is HDR and DV designed to be viewed at 2.2 also?
What model year is your Bravia?
As hard as I've tried, I can not make AutoCal to produce any useable results on my 2016 ZD9. Tried the Raw XYZ setting on the meter. Tried all of the meter sync options (Auto, On, Off). Not much difference.
Client3 pattern generator seems to be more useable than the built-in pattern window.
I have no idea what is output from Mac HDMI - whether the ICC profile is applied or not.
The main observations, that I have made:
  1. AutoCal does not take any advantage of Gain and Bias settings, it only acts on the 10 points of RGB Offset
  2. In some slots, it just drives the sliders to Max and then leaves it at that, seemingly unable to achieve any closer match to D65
  3. Every time the CalMan for Bravia DDC app connects, it resets display settings to defaults
  4. Pressing Full erase DDC in CalMan program, does not reset Color setting sliders on Bravia, I have to manually select Reset on the Bravia > Picture > Color menu
Am I still overlooking something?
What else can I try?
I think first thing I will try is to do manual Gain & Bias adjustment prior to letting it autocal.
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Last edited by priitv8; 05-12-2019 at 09:30 AM.
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post #34 of 41 Old 05-12-2019, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priitv8 View Post
HI,What model year is your Bravia?
As hard as I've tried, I can not make AutoCal to produce any useable results on my 2016 ZD9. Tried the Raw XYZ setting on the meter. Tried all of the meter sync options (Auto, On, Off). Not much difference.
Client3 pattern generator seems to be more useable than the built-in pattern window.
I have no idea what is output from Mac HDMI - whether the ICC profile is applied or not.
The main observations, that I have made:
  1. AutoCal does not take any advantage of Gain and Bias settings, it only acts on the 10 points of RGB Offset
  2. In some slots, it just drives the sliders to Max and then leaves it at that, seemingly unable to achieve any closer match to D65
  3. Every time the CalMan for Bravia DDC app connects, it resets display settings to defaults
  4. Pressing Full erase DDC in CalMan program, does not reset Color setting sliders on Bravia, I have to manually select Reset on the Bravia > Picture > Color menu
Am I still overlooking something?
What else can I try?
I think first thing I will try is to do manual Gain & Bias adjustment prior to letting it autocal.
My calibration actually looks quite nice on SDR, it's DV and HDR that seem too dark still. I think it may have to do with the full/limited auto trigger because if I manually select full it looks right on HDR. Sometimes, toggling inputs and going back to Apple TV maked the HDR look better too. Maybe an auto switching bug.

For gain and bias I just used the precal curve and manually adjusted to get as close to flat as I could. Then when i did the autocal for the 10 points the sliders weren't extreme like before. I think the result is pretty much the same visually though. You have to go in and manually enter the gain/bias on every input and mode, but the 10 point will already be there.

My Calman app doesn't reset anything unless I press reset, My TV is a 2018 65x900e. I am using HDMI out and the pattern window for my target. I am using the default size (10%) and I am not applying any icc profile on the output. I set it to RGB limited, as wifi spy recommended. I did the calibration at full brightness, with the "use measured luminance" option checked, but may retry later to 200ire white or so (we view in a lit room) and see if I get more brightness for HDR by doing that.

Meter is an i1 Display pro se to LCD(LED) since I can't get an answer on whether RGB or Blue/Green would be more correct. Results don't seem drastically different.

@Anderegg , you should not be trying to calibrate HDR if you are using 900f. Sony remaps it automatically. Also, delta-E .2 vs .5 would be imperceptible to the human eye. I think you should be more focused on what looks better. Not saying HCFR is worse or better, just that the difference in delta-e shouldn't be the decider.

I really think spectracal should have a doc that specifies specific settings for each sony set supported. Also, they should have a setup workflow using HDMI output of the laptop, since most people buying calman home will not have a separate pattern source and will be using the computer. There are way too many variable between installing the software and getting a decent calibration, without doing a ton of research and trial/error. For a "home edition" product at that price they need to improve that aspect.

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post #35 of 41 Old 05-12-2019, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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The problem I have with Sony "remapping" anything correctly, is that they ship out uncalibrated TV's that are not 2.2 power law, not BT.1886, and definitely not D65...so they cannot be trusted to remap a luminance curve from SDR to HDR when they are shipping TV's with remapping based on a flawed SDR calibration.

I calibrate my HDR to meet luminance curve nit at 10%-65%, and at 80%-100%...I let the rolloff area be as rolled off as possible rather than forcing those adjustments to the max stops.

Paul


Quote:
Originally Posted by Category 5 View Post
My calibration actually looks quite nice on SDR, it's DV and HDR that seem too dark still. I think it may have to do with the full/limited auto trigger because if I manually select full it looks right on HDR. Sometimes, toggling inputs and going back to Apple TV maked the HDR look better too. Maybe an auto switching bug.

For gain and bias I just used the precal curve and manually adjusted to get as close to flat as I could. Then when i did the autocal for the 10 points the sliders weren't extreme like before. I think the result is pretty much the same visually though. You have to go in and manually enter the gain/bias on every input and mode, but the 10 point will already be there.

My Calman app doesn't reset anything unless I press reset, My TV is a 2018 65x900e. I am using HDMI out and the pattern window for my target. I am using the default size (10%) and I am not applying any icc profile on the output. I set it to RGB limited, as wifi spy recommended. I did the calibration at full brightness, with the "use measured luminance" option checked, but may retry later to 200ire white or so (we view in a lit room) and see if I get more brightness for HDR by doing that.

Meter is an i1 Display pro se to LCD(LED) since I can't get an answer on whether RGB or Blue/Green would be more correct. Results don't seem drastically different.

@Anderegg , you should not be trying to calibrate HDR if you are using 900f. Sony remaps it automatically. Also, delta-E .2 vs .5 would be imperceptible to the human eye. I think you should be more focused on what looks better. Not saying HCFR is worse or better, just that the difference in delta-e shouldn't be the decider.

I really think spectracal should have a doc that specifies specific settings for each sony set supported. Also, they should have a setup workflow using HDMI output of the laptop, since most people buying calman home will not have a separate pattern source and will be using the computer. There are way too many variable between installing the software and getting a decent calibration, without doing a ton of research and trial/error. For a "home edition" product at that price they need to improve that aspect.

Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #36 of 41 Old 05-12-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
The problem I have with Sony "remapping" anything correctly, is that they ship out uncalibrated TV's that are not 2.2 power law, not BT.1886, and definitely not D65...so they cannot be trusted to remap a luminance curve from SDR to HDR when they are shipping TV's with remapping based on a flawed SDR calibration.



I calibrate my HDR to meet luminance curve nit at 10%-65%, and at 80%-100%...I let the rolloff area be as rolled off as possible rather than forcing those adjustments to the max stops.



Paul


You can disagree with how Sony has designed their TVs to work, but when you deviate from the recommendation for calibration process, you are kind on your own. There is nothing wrong with that.
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post #37 of 41 Old 05-12-2019, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Category 5 View Post
For a "home edition" product at that price they need to improve that aspect.
Was it any different for the $399 CalMan Home (or was it Enthusiast)?
For the Client3 that can be used as pattern generator, there is a setup guide available, but it does not describe any of the HDMI output implications.
Client3 also does not want to use any of the other display profiles already created or present on the computer.
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post #38 of 41 Old 05-16-2019, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
This is for the previous Bravia workflow, not the new CalMAN Home one.

I am personally recording a tutorial video next week, so it will be on our YouTube page coming very soon.
Have you completed the Tutorial Video yet? I could not find it.
I have no experience with calibration, and am unsure what to do with the steps in the "CalMAN Home for Sony Walkthrough" document (May 3) where AutoCal does not support my X900F (e.g. Step 7 Colorspace, Step 8 Dynamic Range).
I am very much looking forward to the video.
...Wayne

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post #39 of 41 Old 05-16-2019, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneB2 View Post
Have you completed the Tutorial Video yet? I could not find it.

I have no experience with calibration, and am unsure what to do with the steps in the "CalMAN Home for Sony Walkthrough" document (May 3) where AutoCal does not support my X900F (e.g. Step 7 Colorspace, Step 8 Dynamic Range).

I am very much looking forward to the video.

...Wayne


I will be recording the Sony Videos tomorrow. It should take about a week or two to edit the videos after they are recorded.

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post #40 of 41 Old 05-17-2019, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
I will be recording the Sony Videos tomorrow. It should take about a week or two to edit the videos after they are recorded.
Perfect!
Perhaps you could show how to do a step manually, then compare to doing it with AutoCal. Please also comment on what to expect on TV sets, like X900F, that don't have CMS for some steps. Thanks.

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post #41 of 41 Old Yesterday, 03:35 AM
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Latest CalMan build 50 seems to give me much better results, than I was able to get previously.
Or maybe the change to dE2000 JNDab algorithm, as was suggested in the quick reference guide helped?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalMan with Autocal for Sony BRAVIA 2018 Quick Reference Guide
We recommend setting the AutoCal dE Formula to "dE2000 JNDab" for best results.
I wonder how shall I go about the HDR calibration validation after I've come through the Bravia SDR workflow?
Is there a specific reason, why the referred to HDR Analysis workflow is not available in CalMan Home 2019??

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalMan with Autocal for Sony BRAVIA 2018 Quick Reference Guide
HDR Calibration
Sony displays automatically scale SDR picture mode(s) into the HDR picture mode(s).
Calibrations applied in SDR mode automatically apply to HDR. Direct calibration of HDR picture modes is not necessary.
• The calibration of SDR (2.2 Gamma, D65, Rec 709) is automatically applied to HDR and other gamma formulas.
• You can validate it by changing CalMAN and your Pattern Generator to HDR settings (2.2 Gamma, D65, BT.2020, and retaking all the measurements by Read Series.
• HDR Compatible Pattern Generator required for validation
• VideoForge PRO
• Murideo Six-G
• You can do so in the Validation section of this workflow, but for checking HDR, we highly recommend you to use HDR Analysis workflow instead.
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