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post #61 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Butler View Post
Mac graphics card should be set to Full range, Sony set to Limited 16-235



Brightness should not be set to max, should be around 10 maybe. Black level should be 50.


I don’t think you can force the Mac to full range output to a TV like you can on windows. I may be wrong.

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post #62 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
I don’t think you can force the Mac to full range output to a TV like you can on windows. I may be wrong.
Ah, what would be the best setting in that case then? Would that explain the problems being encountered by priitv8 above?
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post #63 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 08:30 AM
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I just ordered a sony AF9 /A9F, coming from a LG C8. I'm thinking of buying Calman 2019 Sony to use it with my i1DPro. Is Calman compatible with the PGenerator?
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post #64 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 08:41 AM
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Angry

Nobody has issues in HDR with "read series" ? Calman start reading them stop for no reason ... can't use it at all .... Even after several calman reboot, it works maybe 1/30 tries ...

Edit : the calman support contact me by email: thx to you

Last edited by squall049; 05-30-2019 at 09:53 AM.
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post #65 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
I just ordered a sony AF9 /A9F, coming from a LG C8. I'm thinking of buying Calman 2019 Sony to use it with my i1DPro. Is Calman compatible with the PGenerator?


Yes CalMAN Home is compatible. It uses our UPGCI interface.

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post #66 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by squall049 View Post
Nobody has issues in HDR with "read series" ? Calman start reading them stop for no reason ... can't use it at all .... Even after several calman reboot, it works maybe 1/30 tries ...

Edit : the calman support contact me by email: thx to you
You mentioned Panasonic in your previous post which is probably why nobody answered it in a Sony thread.

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post #67 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 01:40 PM
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i think it is because of madvr HDR pattern generator :S.
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post #68 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 04:09 PM
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I’m interested in jumping into home calibration and want help with the specific inventory of hardware and software keeping in mind I am a home enthusiast but want accurate results I can notice in picture quality. Otherwise why bother.

I already have a Sony A9F Oled with the Calman for Bravia app installed. I have a Windows laptop. I know I need CalMAN Home for Sony software for the laptop and a meter perhaps the SpectraCal C6 HDR2000 Colorimeter or the lesser expensive X-Rite OEM i1Display colorimeter.

What I don’t understand yet is besides the price differences what’s the better option and why? The little I know but don’t understand is the meter needs to be profiled. Whatever that is...and how to do that.

In the case of the C6 I may not need that but not sure why...and for the X-Rite I might have to and with another meter device (more expense). I might be willing to choose the C6 nd get the CalMAN Home for Sony once I sort out the pattern generator piece.

Then there is the pattern generator which looking at bundles the The VideoForge PRO for a home enthusiast is prohibitively expensive. What are the other more economical options for this piece of the equation? Is it true you can use your laptop for the pattern generator piece and how exactly?

I work in IT and am technically savvy and can learn if I have good instruction...thank you in advance for your help.

Last edited by kinglm; 05-30-2019 at 04:14 PM.
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post #69 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 05:24 PM
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Hi @kinglm ,
People have different opinions when it comes to what is best or what is right. There are a lot of highly experienced people around here and I am sure some of them will chime in. In the meantime, for the meters for beginners and enthusiasts, there are two options. Either a C6(which comes with profiles for a lot of TVs) or a i1 Display pro+ i1Pro 2. Which is better is arguable and depends on individual preferences.

C6, you buy and you are done. No need to fiddle with anything. The combo of Id3+ipro gives you the ability to profile the colorimeter anytime you wish on any screen you want to calibrate. It involves a bit extra work but gives you that extra satisfaction of doing it yourself. Only you can decide what is right for you based on your preferences.

About the TPG, I don't think you need those expensive ones. Especially for Sony, you only calibrate the SDR and it automatically maps it to HDR( I know it is for the Sony LCDs, and I am thinking it is true for OLEDS, if not someone can correct me here). That being the case all you need is either a good notebook with intel graphics or a $50 raspberry pi with PGenerator(which is bit perfect).
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post #70 of 159 Old 05-30-2019, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Butler View Post
Mac graphics card should be set to Full range, Sony set to Limited 16-235

Brightness should not be set to max, should be around 10 maybe. Black level should be 50.
Finally my AutoCal succeeded! And the 10-point offsets are within reasonable limits, not driven to maximes.
I did only 2 things:
1) Set all 3 tickmarks in CalMan to output PC levels
2) Did a manual 2-point calibration first to minimize dE at 20% and 80% luminances.
dE Formula I've kept at dE2000_JNDab, as per CalMan guide.

It is rather strange to have the Limited/Full scale video signal setting in 3 different places!
What seems to have had impact is the control #1 on the screenshots below.
Control #2 can not be used, because when I set it to PC, I can not AutoCal grayscale multipoint any more - CalMan says "this feature is not supported on this device"
Control #3 seems to have impact for internal pattern generator only (leaving it off did not change my results). I am still using Client3 to eliminate VM's virtual GPU from the equation.

PS, in SDR, I set my brightness to 5, then I get 120cd/m2 from IRE 235 patch.
EDIT: now I see, control #2 is only for target, not the generator. My bad...

EDIT2: Completely forgot - meanwhile I also had updated the BRAVIA firmware to the recent v6.6510 !!
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Last edited by priitv8; 05-30-2019 at 10:45 PM.
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post #71 of 159 Old 05-31-2019, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vishwa Somayaji View Post
Hi @kinglm ,
People have different opinions when it comes to what is best or what is right. There are a lot of highly experienced people around here and I am sure some of them will chime in. In the meantime, for the meters for beginners and enthusiasts, there are two options. Either a C6(which comes with profiles for a lot of TVs) or a i1 Display pro+ i1Pro 2. Which is better is arguable and depends on individual preferences.

C6, you buy and you are done. No need to fiddle with anything. The combo of Id3+ipro gives you the ability to profile the colorimeter anytime you wish on any screen you want to calibrate. It involves a bit extra work but gives you that extra satisfaction of doing it yourself. Only you can decide what is right for you based on your preferences.

About the TPG, I don't think you need those expensive ones. Especially for Sony, you only calibrate the SDR and it automatically maps it to HDR( I know it is for the Sony LCDs, and I am thinking it is true for OLEDS, if not someone can correct me here). That being the case all you need is either a good notebook with intel graphics or a $50 raspberry pi with PGenerator(which is bit perfect).
Thank for your reply. I really appreciate it. Do you know or can point me where for how to use my laptop as the pattern generator. Where do the patterns come from and how are they invoked for the calibration?
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post #72 of 159 Old 05-31-2019, 03:11 PM
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post #73 of 159 Old 05-31-2019, 03:38 PM
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post #74 of 159 Old 05-31-2019, 11:53 PM
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If I change the target gamma in CalMAN to 2.4, does -2 in the A9F settings still correspond to 2.4 or does it reset the 0 position to 2.4?
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post #75 of 159 Old 06-01-2019, 12:55 AM
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Calman Home for Sony 2019

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Originally Posted by thirdkind View Post
If I change the target gamma in CalMAN to 2.4, does -2 in the A9F settings still correspond to 2.4 or does it reset the 0 position to 2.4?


It shouldn’t, if you change it and then run the grayscale autoCAL.

In my opinion this does provide a better SDR results, but slightly worse HDR.

I guess you need to decide which is more important.

For instance if I wanted to HDR to be as accurate as possible, then I would do the SDR calibration at full brightness/backlight/OLED light. This would provide the most accurate HDR results but, then the 100 nits SDR mode would be less accurate.
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post #76 of 159 Old 06-01-2019, 01:41 AM
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It shouldn’t, if you change it and then run the grayscale autoCAL.

In my opinion this does provide a better SDR results, but slightly worse HDR.

I guess you need to decide which is more important.

For instance if I wanted to HDR to be as accurate as possible, then I would do the SDR calibration at full brightness/backlight/OLED light. This would provide the most accurate HDR results but, then the 100 nits SDR mode would be less accurate.
Interesting - I'm guessing this is the same regardless of OLED/LCD-LED?

I think for me a happy medium will have to be calibrating to the slightly higher SDR-brightness I want (150-250 nits most likely) and hoping the HDR mapping still looks very good like that. I'm assuming when you say "less accurate" it's nothing too extreme?
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post #77 of 159 Old 06-01-2019, 03:40 AM
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It shouldn’t, if you change it and then run the grayscale autoCAL.

In my opinion this does provide a better SDR results, but slightly worse HDR.

I guess you need to decide which is more important.

For instance if I wanted to HDR to be as accurate as possible, then I would do the SDR calibration at full brightness/backlight/OLED light. This would provide the most accurate HDR results but, then the 100 nits SDR mode would be less accurate.
Thanks for confirming. I gave this a try (did a full DDC reset and changed Gamma to -2 before doing grayscale with a 2.4 target) and it's definitely the best result I've seen for SDR so far.

I also checked some HDR material I'm familiar with and it still looked great. If there's a minor drop in accuracy, I'll probably never notice. I tend to think that since HDR processing is kind of subjective and up to the manufacturer's philosophy, it can't be truly "reference" (at least not on the low luminance consumer displays we have). And the vast majority of content I watch is still SDR anyway, so it makes sense to sacrifice HDR in favor of SDR for now.

For this pass, I used the ITP formula (mentioned by jrref here) and targeted D65 at 2.4 gamma. My previous attempts at D65 looked off, but this time, it came out great. I don't feel the need to use a modified white point.
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post #78 of 159 Old 06-04-2019, 11:59 AM
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Yes CalMAN Home is compatible. It uses our UPGCI interface.
ok, thank you.


One more question:

I got a Calman home enthusiast lisence which has the bravia workflow. What are the difference between this workflow and the new one in Calman 2019 Sony? Is it worth to upgrade to the 2019 sony version?

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post #79 of 159 Old 06-05-2019, 11:37 AM
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Am I going mad, or has the option to choose which colour temperature to save to i.e. Expert1 and Expert2 been removed? Is it somewhere else now?
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post #80 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
On the Sony 0 = 2.2, -2 = 2.4

If you are still getting weird results then double check to make sure your TPG is sending RGB limited not full to the set. If it's ok then e-mail PD support with all your information and they will tell you what's wrong.
Are we certain CalMAN isn't changing this Gamma scale? With the default Sony picture modes, 0 indeed used to be 2.2 and -2 used to be 2.4, but something weird is going on on my end unless the initial Sony Gamma was way off (which it didn't look to me, given my last set was also 2.2).

When I AutoCaled my Z9F (Gamma 2.2 target), during Calibration (from the DDC reset), Gamma is set to 0. After Calibration, however, it sets it back to -2, and this certainly seems to correspond more closely with 2.2 Gamma I'm used to than the darker 2.4. I initially raised it back to 0 expecting that to be 2.2, but it's definitely much lighter and also has the side effect of making certain faces pale to me. I know of no way to actually test this except by eye unfortunately. (I've tried Gamma test patterns where you're supposed to see where the bars blend, but I'm thinking newer TV's may not display those correctly as they never correspond to anything remotely right for me...)

It's possible this is pattern generator related, as I'm using a laptop, but configured as Tyler has recommended (Sending Full Range RGB, forcing Limited on the TV, and unchecking "Expand Patterns to PC Levels." The calibration has worked flawlessly besides this. Thoughts appreciated!

(Also, I know some versions of CalMAN have some Gamma graph capabilities, but I haven't seen that in this, at least for AutoCal mode - is that not in the Home version?)
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post #81 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Garry Allen View Post
Am I going mad, or has the option to choose which colour temperature to save to i.e. Expert1 and Expert2 been removed? Is it somewhere else now?
I didn't see this either; is it possible it maps to whichever "Custom for Pro" setting you're configuring (assuming AutoCal)?
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post #82 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 05:42 AM
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(Also, I know some versions of CalMAN have some Gamma graph capabilities, but I haven't seen that in this, at least for AutoCal mode - is that not in the Home version?)
If Home displays an "RGB with Luminance" graph during grayscale calibration, that is showing gamma tracking. The target line will be the gamma you set in CalMAN setup.
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post #83 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 06:26 AM
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If Home displays an "RGB with Luminance" graph during grayscale calibration, that is showing gamma tracking. The target line will be the gamma you set in CalMAN setup.
Thanks for the info! I do see that chart and the tracking is perfect, so I'm guessing that means gamma definitely calibrated correctly? Unfortunately, there's nothing to indicate whether that target corresponds with the -2 or 0 Gamma setting on the TV. But I've tried watching with both, and the only conclusion I can come to is it has to be the -2 setting now tracks to 2.2 and the previous Gamma mapping no longer applies; everything I've seen here so far seems to contradict that, though, so I'm trying to make sense of it. But maybe that's why AutoCal sets it back to -2 when saving the data.
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post #84 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 06:51 AM
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I didn't see this either; is it possible it maps to whichever "Custom for Pro" setting you're configuring (assuming AutoCal)?
You might well be right. I'm just wondering what difference it makes, as all professional calibrations I've seen use Expert 2 as their base. I'm perfectly happy with the results Ive achieved just using Expert 1, but was curious why the work-flow still refers to this choice, despite it not being in there any more.
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post #85 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 07:14 AM
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Thanks for the info! I do see that chart and the tracking is perfect, so I'm guessing that means gamma definitely calibrated correctly? Unfortunately, there's nothing to indicate whether that target corresponds with the -2 or 0 Gamma setting on the TV. But I've tried watching with both, and the only conclusion I can come to is it has to be the -2 setting now tracks to 2.2 and the previous Gamma mapping no longer applies; everything I've seen here so far seems to contradict that, though, so I'm trying to make sense of it. But maybe that's why AutoCal sets it back to -2 when saving the data.
You can verify by setting up for a manual calibration then doing a "read series" on the gray scale page (without making adjustments). Make sure that your CalMAN target for gamma matches the autocal's then you can see if it's the same.
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post #86 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
You can verify by setting up for a manual calibration then doing a "read series" on the gray scale page (without making adjustments). Make sure that your CalMAN target for gamma matches the autocal's then you can see if it's the same.
Thanks for the great info - I won't be able to do this until tonight, but I'll definitely give it a shot. So basically I set the power gamma to 2.2 and do a read series on the Grayscale Multipoint page and see if it matches the EOTF line on that page? Then change gamma in the TV and try it again? I really appreciate the help!
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post #87 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 07:32 AM
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Thanks for the great info - I won't be able to do this until tonight, but I'll definitely give it a shot. So basically I set the power gamma to 2.2 and do a read series on the Grayscale Multipoint page and see if it matches the EOTF line on that page? Then change gamma in the TV and try it again? I really appreciate the help!
Yep. You got it.
One major point here: don't be surprised if that read series looks different from what you saw immediately after the autocal. You may see some undulations in the gamma line, and divergence in red, green, and blue. Between meter repeatability and display repeatability, there are always some changes, however small. It's normal. Also, remember that gamma is figured using the luminances for full black and full white. Those readings will be different somewhat between runs, so the results will be too. But shouldn't be enough to make last night's 2.2 tonight's 2.4...
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post #88 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 07:35 AM
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Yep. You got it.
Thanks! I'm (albeit slowly) learning a lot. =) I will try this as soon as I'm able and report back with my findings.
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post #89 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 07:42 AM
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Thanks! I'm (albeit slowly) learning a lot. =) I will try this as soon as I'm able and report back with my findings.
I added some more necessary info to the post you quoted above.
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post #90 of 159 Old 06-07-2019, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupta View Post
Are we certain CalMAN isn't changing this Gamma scale? With the default Sony picture modes, 0 indeed used to be 2.2 and -2 used to be 2.4, but something weird is going on on my end unless the initial Sony Gamma was way off (which it didn't look to me, given my last set was also 2.2).

When I AutoCaled my Z9F (Gamma 2.2 target), during Calibration (from the DDC reset), Gamma is set to 0. After Calibration, however, it sets it back to -2, and this certainly seems to correspond more closely with 2.2 Gamma I'm used to than the darker 2.4. I initially raised it back to 0 expecting that to be 2.2, but it's definitely much lighter and also has the side effect of making certain faces pale to me. I know of no way to actually test this except by eye unfortunately. (I've tried Gamma test patterns where you're supposed to see where the bars blend, but I'm thinking newer TV's may not display those correctly as they never correspond to anything remotely right for me...)

It's possible this is pattern generator related, as I'm using a laptop, but configured as Tyler has recommended (Sending Full Range RGB, forcing Limited on the TV, and unchecking "Expand Patterns to PC Levels." The calibration has worked flawlessly besides this. Thoughts appreciated!

(Also, I know some versions of CalMAN have some Gamma graph capabilities, but I haven't seen that in this, at least for AutoCal mode - is that not in the Home version?)
I came to the conclusion that:

1. Gamma test patterns used for checking by eye don't work very well, especially 1080p patterns on 4K displays
2. The gamma setting that looks "correct" depends on the source, so you have to trust the calibration and assume variances you see are in the source material

For example, I watched several seasons of Vikings on Amazon Prime and thought it looked great, but then I redid my calibration to target 2.4 gamma and found that many dark scenes in later seasons had elevated blacks and lots of artifacts. Assuming my calibration went poorly, I went back and viewed the earlier seasons and found they still looked great; there's just something about the black level or gamma in the later seasons that makes them look terrible, even from scene to scene. Mr. Robot on Prime has the same issue; the first two seasons look much better than season 3 when it comes to dark scene rendering. No idea if it's an encoding issue or just different cinematography/grading.

The main clue that my calibrated gamma is closer to ideal than the out-of-box gamma is that the flashing/pulsing that plagued darker scenes in Mr. Robot and GoT is now gone. The episodes of GoT that sent the internet into a frenzy look great on my A9F.

What material are you using to judge your results? I find that focusing on known reference material and accepting that a lot of material is just going to look a bit off is the only way to stay sane in this hobby.
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