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post #1 of 28 Old 05-02-2019, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Gamma & Saturation Sweeps

This is probably a numpty question but i have been struggling to calibrate my Samsung Q9FN (CalMan, XRite Display Pro2 profiled with Xrite Pro 2).

Using 100/100 Sat/Stim for CMS, I can get all the target points pretty much spot on but when I run 25% sweeps, the lower %'s, particularly Red, are way off. I tried 75/75 CMS but just cannot get Red to come anywhere close to target - it is well under-saturated.

I ran another sweep last night after some more playing around and was amazed to see that all my points had snapped back onto or close to target. Then I realised my target Gamma was set to 2.2 instead of Grayscale calibrated target 2.4. I set it to 2.4 and, Game Over, under saturated again.

Been posting on the Samsung Settings thread (AnotherDude & Rolls Royce have been very helpful) but figured i would throw it out here too.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57980308

I'm totally lost now so any advise would be appreciated.
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Last edited by mombasa123; 05-02-2019 at 08:11 PM.
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post #2 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Nvm - just realised that changing Gamma moves the target points left/right. The calibrated point does not change. That I cannot seem to make any better whatsover at 75/75 Rwally don't understand why its good at 100/100 but terrible at lower %'s no matter what.
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post #3 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Nvm - just realised that changing Gamma moves the target points left/right. The calibrated point does not change. That I cannot seem to make any better whatsover at 75/75 Rwally don't understand why its good at 100/100 but terrible at lower %'s no matter what.
Define good. It may be good at 100%, what about below?

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post #4 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Define good. It may be good at 100%, what about below?
As in low < 1 dE & Luminance close to 0 at 100% target points. Terrible (for Red at least) below that, particularly the 75% target.

Point is that even if I try and calibrate at 75/75, Red point barely moves towards 75% target which makes zero sense. The only way I can get it even remotely close is by cranking up colour from meter calibrated 26 to 30+ which just seems plain wrong.

I figure its my panel and I am stuck with it
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post #5 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
As in low < 1 dE & Luminance close to 0 at 100% target points. Terrible (for Red at least) below that, particularly the 75% target.

Point is that even if I try and calibrate at 75/75, Red point barely moves towards 75% target which makes zero sense. The only way I can get it even remotely close is by cranking up colour from meter calibrated 26 to 30+ which just seems plain wrong.

I figure its my panel and I am stuck with it
Is the sweep chart on the right the result of the calibration chart on the left?

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post #6 of 28 Old 05-04-2019, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Is the sweep chart on the right the result of the calibration chart on the left?
No, the first one is 100/75 to show that the 100% targets are good. The second one on the right is 75/75 calibration showing the 75% calibrated point is well off the 75% target. Its the same with 100/100, 100/75, 75/100, 75/75. I simply cannot get close to the 75% target.
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post #7 of 28 Old 05-04-2019, 09:15 AM
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What pic mode are you using? Do you have all "smart" things disabled? Local dimming should be Low.

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Are you using the correct patterns? Did you change the settings in CalMAN to 75%L/75%S targets? Are you in Movie mode ?



When you calibrate colour to 75% luminance and 75% saturation you have to display the correct patterns. Using your CMS adjust to get correct hue and saturation then adjust for luminance. Using CalMAN and the proper setting for a Samsung CMS you should be able to see your measured point move as you adjust the controls to the target point in real time. All three controls will interact. When your done take another set of measurements then see if you have corrected your errors. If everything is well then switch back to 75% luminance and 100% saturation and do a saturation sweep. This should show that your 100% now is over saturated say for Red but 25%-75% tracks closer and more linear to targets. Most content lies in the 25% -75% saturation range. This is more important to get correct.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post

Point is that even if I try and calibrate at 75/75, Red point barely moves towards 75% target which makes zero sense. The only way I can get it even remotely close is by cranking up colour from meter calibrated 26 to 30+ which just seems plain wrong.

I figure its my panel and I am stuck with it
I don't think you have the Color control set properly. If I am understanding your quote correctly. Reset your Movie Mode to defaults. Adjust Contrast for target luminance , Brightness, Sharpness etc. Leave Color at 50 then only adjust your CMS.

Last edited by hungro; 05-05-2019 at 09:23 AM.
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post #10 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post
I don't think you have the Color control set properly. I am understanding your quote correctly. Reset your Movie Mode to defaults disable auto dimming, black enhancement , dynamic contrast you know all those controls that interfere with calibration. Leave Color at 50 then only adjust your CMS.
Color at 50 is ridiculous for 2018 QLED. And Local Dimming cannot be disabled.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Color at 50 is ridiculous for 2018 QLED. And Local Dimming cannot be disabled.
I don't actually own this TV myself and I didn't realize that Colour is set to 25 for default. I know that when you start a new calibration it's best to reset the picture mode in this case Movie to defaults and start from the beginning. Maybe some settings are left on the TV that shouldn't be and could be having an affect on the calibration or something is not set properly within CalMAN.

From RTINGS.


Keeping in mind that every TV is different...


Samsung Q9FN calibration settings.
The first thing we did was to turn off all of the 'Eco Solution' settings, as we don't want the backlight level to change during our calibration. This is also the recommended setting if you don't want the brightness of the TV to change automatically depending on the room brightness.


For movies and TV content, the 'Movie' 'Picture Mode' gave us the closest result to our calibration goal and it should bring the image quality closest to what the content creator intended it be.


We set the 'Local Dimming' to 'Low' for the calibration (usually, we turn it off for the calibration, but like most Samsung TVs, it is not possible for the Q9FN). The Q9FN features full array local dimming, and while we calibrated it with 'Local Dimming' on 'Low', we recommend setting it to 'High', as it is quite effective at boosting the contrast ratio. 'Contrast Enhancer' was left turned off since we don't want to add any extra image processing to keep the content as faithful to the original intent.

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post #12 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
As in low < 1 dE & Luminance close to 0 at 100% target points. Terrible (for Red at least) below that, particularly the 75% target.

Point is that even if I try and calibrate at 75/75, Red point barely moves towards 75% target which makes zero sense. The only way I can get it even remotely close is by cranking up colour from meter calibrated 26 to 30+ which just seems plain wrong.

I figure its my panel and I am stuck with it
It appears that your panel might suffer from poor color uniformity. This, sadly, isn't something new.
In your first post, you did mention that everything was good at 2.2 gamma. Remaining at 2.2 may be your best option.

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post #13 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 09:19 AM
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What I don't understand is why when adjusting the CMS controls example for the Red primary point for 75% saturation doesn't move it closer to 75% target is there something wrong with the controls. This TV should be able to hit the correct hue, saturation and luminance target for 75%L/75%S. Maybe I am misunderstanding something.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post
I don't actually own this TV myself just trying to figure out what could be going on. In the past on non QLED Samsung TV's 50 for Colour was the correct setting. I know that when you start a new calibration it's best to reset the picture mode in this case Movie to defaults and start from the beginning. Maybe some settings are left on the TV that shouldn't be and could be having an affect on the calibration or something is not set properly within CalMAN.
Spoiler!
Since you don't have this TV you should really avoid recommendations.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
It appears that your panel might suffer from poor color uniformity. This, sadly, isn't something new.
In your first post, you did mention that everything was good at 2.2 gamma. Remaining at 2.2 may be your best option.
I'm beginning to think so too. I can get 75% Saturation Red to line up. It throws 100% off but that's better than 100% lining up but throwing lower saturations off.

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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Since you don't have this TV you should really avoid recommendations.
All I am just saying is that something could be set incorrectly, measuring with the wrong patterns, incorrect settings in CalMAN etc. Not having the proper settings adjusted in the TV. This is for the OP. Just trying to help him out.


I know that when I calibrated my Panasonic ST60 Color. I calibrated the CMS using HSL controls where the Samsungs including the QLED have RGB controls for each primary and secondary colour. Maybe the OP didn't switch to the proper controls for his TV in CalMAN. Also I calibrated the CMS using 75%L/75%S patterns.Maybe the OP didn't switch to using the proper patterns. Then did a saturation sweep but switched back my targets to 75%L/100%S and did the final tuning to the CMS balancing out the colours. Maybe the OP didn't switch back to the proper patterns. This showed that 100% saturation was over saturated and that 25%-75% saturation was tracking properly for example the Red primary.

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I am just saying that something could be set incorrectly, measuring with the wrong patterns, incorrect settings in CalMAN etc. In correct settings in TV itself. This is for the OP.
Fine, but you're quoting RTINGS verbally taking up lots of needless space, things that have been gone over many times in the Owner's thread where the OP also posts. It gets old and dreary .

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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Fine, but you're quoting RTINGS verbally taking up lots of needless space, things that have been gone over many times in the Owner's thread where the OP also posts. It gets old and dreary .
All the info that I posted is just to get the OP to back track his steps in the calibration process . Something somewhere could of been missed.

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Thanks for your posts chaps. Just to confirm, am in Movie mode, all extraneous processing disabled, Local Dimming set to Low, Color 26, Contrast 35, Black 0. Been doing this long enough to know all that

Am using Ted's patterns disk so, yes, the Sat/Stim combo's are good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
It appears that your panel might suffer from poor color uniformity. This, sadly, isn't something new.
In your first post, you did mention that everything was good at 2.2 gamma. Remaining at 2.2 may be your best option.
I'm beginning to think that too. Will try and contact Samsung Tech but may be an impossible task to get anywhere given the lack of expertise in HK

EDIT : Called Samsung CS and a tech is going to come around on Wed. Not holding out much hope but let's see.

Last edited by mombasa123; 05-05-2019 at 10:44 PM.
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post #20 of 28 Old 05-06-2019, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Thanks for your posts chaps. Just to confirm, am in Movie mode, all extraneous processing disabled, Local Dimming set to Low, Color 26, Contrast 35, Black 0. Been doing this long enough to know all that

Am using Ted's patterns disk so, yes, the Sat/Stim combo's are good.



I'm beginning to think that too. Will try and contact Samsung Tech but may be an impossible task to get anywhere given the lack of expertise in HK

EDIT : Called Samsung CS and a tech is going to come around on Wed. Not holding out much hope but let's see.
Good luck, mate!

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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Good luck, mate!

Thx - wish me luck trying to explain CMS and Saturation sweeps to someone who will more than likely not have a clue ....... and will barely speak English ........ Sigh.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
This is probably a numpty question but i have been struggling to calibrate my Samsung Q9FN (CalMan, XRite Display Pro2 profiled with Xrite Pro 2).

Using 100/100 Sat/Stim for CMS, I can get all the target points pretty much spot on but when I run 25% sweeps, the lower %'s, particularly Red, are way off. I tried 75/75 CMS but just cannot get Red to come anywhere close to target - it is well under-saturated.

I ran another sweep last night after some more playing around and was amazed to see that all my points had snapped back onto or close to target. Then I realised my target Gamma was set to 2.2 instead of Grayscale calibrated target 2.4. I set it to 2.4 and, Game Over, under saturated again.

Been posting on the Samsung Settings thread (AnotherDude & Rolls Royce have been very helpful) but figured i would throw it out here too.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57980308

I'm totally lost now so any advise would be appreciated.
I don't know about your model tv and any issues but as a tip,


gamma luminance has an affect on color sweeps.
the gray scale is displayed then color is applied on top so the gray will
influence the color.
so if you have the standard target in the cal program set to say 2.2 and you end up after cal'ng having an average of 2.3x then any color work will be weighted wrong.
set your cal program to 2.3x gamma target before doing color work.
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post #23 of 28 Old 05-07-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
I don't know about your model tv and any issues but as a tip,


gamma luminance has an affect on color sweeps.
the gray scale is displayed then color is applied on top so the gray will
influence the color.
so if you have the standard target in the cal program set to say 2.2 and you end up after cal'ng having an average of 2.3x then any color work will be weighted wrong.
set your cal program to 2.3x gamma target before doing color work.
Thanks - that confirms my findings that Gamma affects Color targets - just did not know why.
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Thx - wish me luck trying to explain CMS and Saturation sweeps to someone who will more than likely not have a clue ....... and will barely speak English ........ Sigh.
Well, that was a total disaster. A couple of nice & friendly clowns came over and it was obvious from the start they had no clue. Didn't even know what Calman / meter etc were. They kept nodding their heads when i explained saturation target etc but .....

So, they started playing with my settings - first thing was 'oh movie mode, no good, standard good .... ' turned up contrast to 80 etc. I stopped them and explained again about my large set of bluray's, importance of correct picture etc. At which point, they said 'oh, you are too professional for us - we will ask an engineer to follow up and call you' lol.

Sadly, they messed up all my calibration setting by playing YouTube app & picture settings which was set to 'All Sources' grrrrrr. Having to start all over again.

Not holding my breath for the 'expert engineer' ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Well, that was a total disaster. A couple of nice & friendly clowns came over and it was obvious from the start they had no clue. Didn't even know what Calman / meter etc were. They kept nodding their heads when i explained saturation target etc but .....

So, they started playing with my settings - first thing was 'oh movie mode, no good, standard good .... ' turned up contrast to 80 etc. I stopped them and explained again about my large set of bluray's, importance of correct picture etc. At which point, they said 'oh, you are too professional for us - we will ask an engineer to follow up and call you' lol.

Sadly, they messed up all my calibration setting by playing YouTube app & picture settings which was set to 'All Sources' grrrrrr. Having to start all over again.

Not holding my breath for the 'expert engineer' ...
Were those actually Samsung employees or some company they use for repairs? You should definitely place an official complaint!

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post #26 of 28 Old 05-09-2019, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Were those actually Samsung employees or some company they use for repairs? You should definitely place an official complaint!
Samsung i believe but, quite honestly, HK is a small market and Samsung will not have the level of expertise USA/UK get.
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post #27 of 28 Old 05-11-2019, 10:00 AM
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Samsung i believe but, quite honestly, HK is a small market and Samsung will not have the level of expertise USA/UK get.
Unfortunately, it's no better here when you're talking about the majority of repair technicians. Additionally, all the service manuals I've owned so far for my different TVs all said essentially the same thing (paraphrased): if white balance is necessary following a repair, adjust for best white. No gear is specified, so it means by eye alone.

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post #28 of 28 Old 05-15-2019, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Got a call from Samsung - basically they have no clue about CalMAN, calibration etc in HK so I gave up and agreed to close the case.

So looks like I am stuck with under saturated red (and blue to a lesser extent). A little bit more fine tuning to do and I will post my results & settings in the Q9FN Settings thread but it's the best I am going to get.

On a brighter note though, White Balance/Greyscale is stunning - ie get average dE of between .16 & 0.18 depending on lighting conditions. Much happier with the picture now - Frontier on NetFlix looks v good indeed - natural skies and snow etc. Haven't had a chance to watch much other stuff yet.

PS - going to run some saturation sweeps in Native CS and see what pops out - just for the hell of it.
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