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post #1831 of 1923 Old 03-26-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I calibrated to .309 .329 yesterday and I think I'm still getting a touch of green.

I'll calibrate the SM modes to compare your AWP with D65 as well as my current.

D65 vs Plasma vs RGB OLED.

Have you compared to the X310?
I calibrated the expert dark mode with Tyler whitepoint and so far its my favorite calibration.
The skin tones look natural, the whitepoint make the colour pop.
Im not expert but its most natural image i seen so far.
I try mikki anger white point which was also very good.
I will try dolby vision and hdr tonight.
Thanks tyler.

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post #1832 of 1923 Old 03-26-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
The guide you linked to is for the higher end versions of CalMAN. It has more options and slightly different pages to it's workflow compared to the Home version.

The guide for CalMAN Home is HERE
Thanks for the clarification. I also found the video tutorial on the SDR calibration which cleared some of this up.

SDR 100 nits calibration was pretty straight forward other than a little bit of confusion around a few things.

I am going to try to find out how I can further tweak the meter and change D65 white point to something believed to be "more accurate" and do a much brighter SDR calibration for day time viewing which is how the TV will be used most of the time when we watch 1080P content.
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post #1833 of 1923 Old 03-26-2020, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
ok, but I still don't understand why you only wrote "this is not a thing" in reply to a long post - what precisely is the "this" that is not a thing, you were referring to please?


Baking a white point into an EDR.
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post #1834 of 1923 Old 03-26-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Baking a white point into an EDR.
Thankyou. There you go @rdk914 , as most of us thought, there is no such thing as forcing a white point into an EDR, so from my earlier post here (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post59408898), I will re-word slightly here:

I read it a different way entirely. I read the question
"Has FSI its own WP for 2018 WRGB OLED panel? Would you be so kind to give us its values (xyY)?"
answered as
"That is baked into the WOLED EDR supplied with LightSpace - with that, you just target D65."
to mean
"[no, FSI does not have a custom WP] that is baked into the WOLED EDR supplied with LightSpace [baking WPs into EDRs is not a thing] [so there is no special xyY values that I could ever give you, just use the default] - with that, you just target D65." [and you'll then get what FSI gets when they target D65] [however, just because FSI doesn't have their own WP, there is nothing whatsoever to stop you from choosing any white point other than D65]

NB: I have no interest whatsoever in getting dragged into any ding-dongs between various competing companies here other than to clarify, and for my own sanity, that my initial reaction (here) was thankfully on the right lines

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post #1835 of 1923 Old 03-26-2020, 05:29 PM
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I got a tripod recently.
If I were to try non contact with the i1d3 in a bat cave, would 7-8 inches from the screen to meter lens be ok?
The edge of my TV stand is preventing me from getting closer.

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post #1836 of 1923 Old 03-26-2020, 06:00 PM
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Is there a way to change the pattern insertion frequency in the middle of the AutoCal?


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post #1837 of 1923 Old 03-26-2020, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by beardontwalk123 View Post
Is there a way to change the pattern insertion frequency in the middle of the AutoCal?


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post #1838 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 02:46 AM
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Hi Guys, before calibrating do you do any change in the service menu of the c9?
And do you disable dtm when calibrating hdr?

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post #1839 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Toto84 View Post
Hi Guys, before calibrating do you do any change in the service menu of the c9?
And do you disable dtm when calibrating hdr?

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There’s nothing really to change in the Service Menu when using AutoCal unless you want to disable ASBL. Some do that but the majority don’t bother.

DTM shouldn’t matter when using AutoCal because when you tick Enable Calibration the internal tone mapping is disabled. But I always disable it anyway to be sure.

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post #1840 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Thankyou. There you go @rdk914 , as most of us thought, there is no such thing as forcing a white point into an EDR, so from my earlier post here (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post59408898), I will re-word slightly here:

I read it a different way entirely. I read the question
"Has FSI its own WP for 2018 WRGB OLED panel? Would you be so kind to give us its values (xyY)?"
answered as
"That is baked into the WOLED EDR supplied with LightSpace - with that, you just target D65."
to mean
"[no, FSI does not have a custom WP] that is baked into the WOLED EDR supplied with LightSpace [baking WPs into EDRs is not a thing] [so there is no special xyY values that I could ever give you, just use the default] - with that, you just target D65." [and you'll then get what FSI gets when they target D65] [however, just because FSI doesn't have their own WP, there is nothing whatsoever to stop you from choosing any white point other than D65]

NB: I have no interest whatsoever in getting dragged into any ding-dongs between various competing companies here other than to clarify, and for my own sanity, that my initial reaction (here) was thankfully on the right lines
I certainly don't think this needs to be a ding-dong at all. That said, I am not completely sold that when Steve Shaw said that they have a different white point baked into the EDR he meant that they do NOT have a different white point baked into the EDR, since there is no such thing. Some posts after his post suggest that others found this to be a noteworthy statement, and Anger.Miki requested clarification on how it was done (and even guessed at the possible method). To my knowledge, Steve Shaw has not elaborated (or explained that he misspoke).

Maybe what he means is that there is an element of metamerism that is common to most users, that arises from WOLED technology and that would need to be corrected with a custom WP were it not corrected by the operation of the EDR with the software (maybe call that a general metamerism fix). There is then also an additional element of metamerism that goes beyond the general metamerism and is unique to each user and how much their eyes vary from "typical" eyes (maybe call that specific user metamerism). (Presumably although all eyes are different, there are some that are more different than most and many that are fairly similar.) The specific user offset can only be corrected by a particular user doing a perceptual match to an accurate plasma.

Steve's post to me indicates very clearly that he is of the view that if you use the EDR you can then just target D65 in the software and all WOLED issues are resolved. Users can try alternative white points to address their user specific metamerism, but those would either need to be done by their own perceptual match or just by trial and error and personal preference.

Of course it is possible that Steve did not mean to say what he said, but you would think if that were the case that he would have clarified things after people misunderstood.

Maybe a paid up LS user can could ask Steve Shaw what he meant and let us know.
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post #1841 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
There’s nothing really to change in the Service Menu when using AutoCal unless you want to disable ASBL. Some do that but the majority don’t bother.

DTM shouldn’t matter when using AutoCal because when you tick Enable Calibration the internal tone mapping is disabled. But I always disable it anyway to be sure.
I disabled ASBL....and kept it off.

I also disabled DTM, and ALSO kept it off. It really depends on your preferences as to whether you choose to use it or not but just know that with DTM enabled, it artificially brightens the picture in the mid-SDR range.

For calibration there's a bunch of things I disable. Pixel shifting for logos being the big one. Any enhancements to the picture mode (noise reduction, etc) I also disable. It seems to make a difference.
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post #1842 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 06:30 AM
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I disabled ASBL....and kept it off.

I also disabled DTM, and ALSO kept it off. It really depends on your preferences as to whether you choose to use it or not but just know that with DTM enabled, it artificially brightens the picture in the mid-SDR range.

For calibration there's a bunch of things I disable. Pixel shifting for logos being the big one. Any enhancements to the picture mode (noise reduction, etc) I also disable. It seems to make a difference.
I also disabled ASBL and DTM. I’m very well aware of what steps to take prior to calibration and what DTM does to the image. My response was in reply to specific questions as I had already advised the specific user to disable all that other processing at a previous time.

Most people do not have access to a service remote or know how to use other methods to enter the Service Menu or INSTART Menu so will not disable ASBL. Likewise, when ticking Enable Calibration, all tome mapping within the display is automatically bypassed in HDR so theoretically DTM should not “need” to be disabled to perform the calibration, but I disable it just to be sure, and as I use Custom Tone Curves I have no wish to re-enable it.
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post #1843 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I also disabled ASBL and DTM. I’m very well aware of what steps to take prior to calibration and what DTM does to the image. My response was in reply to specific questions as I had already advised the specific user to disable all that other processing at a previous time.



Most people do not have access to a service remote or know how to use other methods to enter the Service Menu or INSTART Menu so will not disable ASBL. Likewise, when ticking Enable Calibration, all tome mapping within the display is automatically bypassed in HDR so theoretically DTM should not “need” to be disabled to perform the calibration, but I disable it just to be sure, and as I use Custom Tone Curves I have no wish to re-enable it.
How do you disable ASBL Without the specific remote?
What setting do you recommend for custom tone mapping?
I read that a few people put 1000 nit 50 instead of 70.

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post #1844 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Toto84 View Post
How do you disable ASBL Without the specific remote?
What setting do you recommend for custom tone mapping?
I read that a few people put 1000 nit 50 instead of 70.

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50 for 1k, 60 for 4K, 40 for 10k.
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post #1845 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Toto84 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I also disabled ASBL and DTM. I’️m very well aware of what steps to take prior to calibration and what DTM does to the image. My response was in reply to specific questions as I had already advised the specific user to disable all that other processing at a previous time.



Most people do not have access to a service remote or know how to use other methods to enter the Service Menu or INSTART Menu so will not disable ASBL. Likewise, when ticking Enable Calibration, all tome mapping within the display is automatically bypassed in HDR so theoretically DTM should not “need” to be disabled to perform the calibration, but I disable it just to be sure, and as I use Custom Tone Curves I have no wish to re-enable it.
How do you disable ASBL Without the specific remote?
What setting do you recommend for custom tone mapping?
I read that a few people put 1000 nit 50 instead of 70.

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Toto, do you have a Harmony remote? PM me and I'll show you what to do.

Also, for Custom Tone curves, here is what Tyler posted a bit ago for his settings:

"Here are the values we used at the 2019 UK TV Shootout. (To best match the Sony BVM-X300)

Dynamic Tone Mapping Off

1000

50

4000

40

10000

30"
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post #1846 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I also disabled ASBL and DTM. I’m very well aware of what steps to take prior to calibration and what DTM does to the image. My response was in reply to specific questions as I had already advised the specific user to disable all that other processing at a previous time.

Most people do not have access to a service remote or know how to use other methods to enter the Service Menu or INSTART Menu so will not disable ASBL. Likewise, when ticking Enable Calibration, all tome mapping within the display is automatically bypassed in HDR so theoretically DTM should not “need” to be disabled to perform the calibration, but I disable it just to be sure, and as I use Custom Tone Curves I have no wish to re-enable it.
I know YOU know what steps to take, I was just pointing it out for others, that's all.
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post #1847 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdk914 View Post
I certainly don't think this needs to be a ding-dong at all. That said, I am not completely sold that when Steve Shaw said that they have a different white point baked into the EDR he meant that they do NOT have a different white point baked into the EDR, since there is no such thing. Some posts after his post suggest that others found this to be a noteworthy statement, and Anger.Miki requested clarification on how it was done (and even guessed at the possible method). To my knowledge, Steve Shaw has not elaborated (or explained that he misspoke).
And that's the problem. Unless he clarifies, you would have to guess.

Quote:
Maybe what he means is that there is an element of metamerism that is common to most users, that arises from WOLED technology and that would need to be corrected with a custom WP were it not corrected by the operation of the EDR with the software (maybe call that a general metamerism fix).
But we all know that's not what EDRs do, as recently clarified. EDRs are nothing to do with white points or metamerism. I think of EDRs as like a "poor man's profile" for any given [meter+panel] combination. Nothing to do with white points or metamerism.

Quote:
Steve's post to me indicates very clearly that he is of the view that if you use the EDR you can then just target D65 in the software and all WOLED issues are resolved.
I profoundly and politely disagree [with that bolded concept] as would many others

Quote:
Users can try alternative white points to address their user specific metamerism, but those would either need to be done by their own perceptual match or just by trial and error and personal preference.
Yes indeed, that's the whole point of perceptual matching

Quote:
Of course it is possible that Steve did not mean to say what he said, but you would think if that were the case that he would have clarified things after people misunderstood.
I agree. You would have thought he would want to either clarify, retract or justify such a statement. Obviously this is over-analysing to the point of absurdity, but my particular beef is his use of the word "baked". I infer from that, that he is implying that there's something "special" about that one particular EDR, and it does something that no other EDR can do. Which is, as we know, ridiculous.

Quote:
Maybe a paid up LS user can could ask Steve Shaw what he mean and let us know.
Yes I agree with you, this is probably the only way to ever find out

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post #1848 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 07:52 AM
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Hi guys,

I have some more newbie questions. I have previous experience calibrating SDR on older generation tech with older generation versions of Calman and older meters but the latest stuff is still quite new to me.

I had a long calibration session last night that included at least 1 (might have been 2) crash of Calman during HDR 1D LUT calibration. Is this a known problem?

My results so far with HDR/DV calibration don't seem to be very good. The color space for sure is set correctly as I was double checking everything to make sure that I'm set properly for an HDR calibration. I was using Tyler's indicated white point so it's possible I need to calibrate again with a different white point for sake of comparison.

The resulting calibrated picture looks pasty, flat and possibly even a little bit green from the stock modes I have not calibrated. Since there's no pre/post calibration data it's difficult to figure out what is going on.... so here are my questions;

1. If I've previously adjusted things like color temp for a picture mode is it necessary to do any post-calibration or pre-calibration adjustment or reset of this data? I believe the answer is no since the table is deleted before calibration begins but want to be sure.

2. Is it possible to wipe out or reset a picture mode after calibration so I can do a visual comparison of what it looks like with the factory settings?

3. Does the TV itself maintain a log/history anywhere of what calibrations have been performed?

Right now I'm feeling a bit frustrated. I was working on this set last night for about 5 hours and don't have much to show for it. Family is irritated with me since this was supposed to be an "auto cal" that would just touch up the picture and improve it a bit (everyone who is less critical than me was pretty happy with the quality before this was done).

Here's a couple of crappy cell phone pictures for comparison purposes. If it becomes helpful I can easily set up my prosumer level DSR and take controlled photos to better articulate what I'm running into.

The 1st example is the post calibration HDR shot from a 4K BD source (Cinema User). The 2nd examples (Cinema Home) are the pre-calibration HDR mode I didn't mess with. It is much closer (but still not quite bang on) with the SDR output for the same video.
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post #1849 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
Toto, do you have a Harmony remote? PM me and I'll show you what to do.

Also, for Custom Tone curves, here is what Tyler posted a bit ago for his settings:

"Here are the values we used at the 2019 UK TV Shootout. (To best match the Sony BVM-X300)

Dynamic Tone Mapping Off

1000

50

4000

40

10000

30"
I dont im afraid, what is the gain to shut ABSL?
And thank you for sharing this.

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post #1850 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
50 for 1k, 60 for 4K, 40 for 10k.
Thanks DNice, what would be the luminance for those setting?

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post #1851 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto84 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
Toto, do you have a Harmony remote? PM me and I'll show you what to do.

Also, for Custom Tone curves, here is what Tyler posted a bit ago for his settings:

"Here are the values we used at the 2019 UK TV Shootout. (To best match the Sony BVM-X300)

Dynamic Tone Mapping Off

1000

50

4000

40

10000

30"
I dont im afraid, what is the gain to shut ABSL?
And thank you for sharing this.

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Honestly I don't see a difference.
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post #1852 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
Honestly I don't see a difference.
With dtm off i find that some of the detail are missing?
What about you guys?

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post #1853 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post

But we all know that's not what EDRs do, as recently clarified. EDRs are nothing to do with white points or metamerism. I think of EDRs as like a "poor man's profile" for any given [meter+panel] combination. Nothing to do with white points or metamerism.
But if EDRs are effectively telling the software to adjust the readings it is receiving from the meter (as does a profile), why could you not "bake" into that adjustment an additional adjustment to account for the white point issue (exactly how you would do that I do not know, but that certainly does not mean it could not be done).

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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I profoundly and politely disagree [with that bolded concept] as would many others
Fair enough and nicely put, and I think we should leave it there. I am not using the EDR any more since I now have a "rich man's profile" for my C9, so if anyone who is using the EDR thinks there is any merit to my questions/concerns, then they can take this up. Be well.
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post #1854 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:30 AM
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I know YOU know what steps to take, I was just pointing it out for others, that's all.
Ah sorry, I was using my phone browser and didn't actually look to see who it was who quoted me

But yes, disabling ASBL can have some benefits (I leave it always off). Disabling DTM for the actual AutoCal shouldn't really make a difference as tone mapping is bypassed with Enable Calibration checked, but I do not like DTM anyway so for me it's always disabled
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post #1855 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Toto84 View Post
Thanks DNice, what would be the luminance for those setting?

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Luminance setting? That would be whatever you measure the peak light output of your display.
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post #1856 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Toto84 View Post
With dtm off i find that some of the detail are missing?
What about you guys?

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DTM should always be off. No detail loss with it off.
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post #1857 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Hi guys,

I have some more newbie questions. I have previous experience calibrating SDR on older generation tech with older generation versions of Calman and older meters but the latest stuff is still quite new to me.

I had a long calibration session last night that included at least 1 (might have been 2) crash of Calman during HDR 1D LUT calibration. Is this a known problem?
I have had the occasional crash on earlier builds, but they were sporadic and infrequent. Usually a quick reboot of my laptop solved it and it wouldn't crash again. I put it down to maybe something running in the background on my laptop causing a conflict.

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My results so far with HDR/DV calibration don't seem to be very good. The color space for sure is set correctly as I was double checking everything to make sure that I'm set properly for an HDR calibration. I was using Tyler's indicated white point so it's possible I need to calibrate again with a different white point for sake of comparison.
I have seen someone mention that targeting an alternate white point in HDR didn't work for them. It was something I was going to try out at some point to help him troubleshoot but I haven't got around to doing it yet. Try maybe just recalibrating to the default D65 and see if it solves your issue as I believe that is what he did for now.

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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
The resulting calibrated picture looks pasty, flat and possibly even a little bit green from the stock modes I have not calibrated. Since there's no pre/post calibration data it's difficult to figure out what is going on.... so here are my questions;

1. If I've previously adjusted things like color temp for a picture mode is it necessary to do any post-calibration or pre-calibration adjustment or reset of this data? I believe the answer is no since the table is deleted before calibration begins but want to be sure.

2. Is it possible to wipe out or reset a picture mode after calibration so I can do a visual comparison of what it looks like with the factory settings?

3. Does the TV itself maintain a log/history anywhere of what calibrations have been performed?
1. AutoCal resets both the 1D & 3D LUTs when pressing Full DDC Reset so you are measuring the native panel. Colour Temp settings are bypassed.

2. In each Picture Mode there is an option to reset it. Scroll below Expert Controls/Picture Options/Apply To All Inputs. It is there at the bottom.

3. Not that I am aware. When you calibrate a Picture Mode it loads a LUT table specific to that Picture Mode for all inputs on the TV. Other settings such as OLED Light etc, and post processing settings such as TruMotion must be manually transferred to each input though.


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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Right now I'm feeling a bit frustrated. I was working on this set last night for about 5 hours and don't have much to show for it. Family is irritated with me since this was supposed to be an "auto cal" that would just touch up the picture and improve it a bit (everyone who is less critical than me was pretty happy with the quality before this was done).
You can get some pretty good results if you take the time to play around with it a little, but to be totally honest, all I have done with my C9 at the moment is to reset it to defaults, pre calibrate a colour temperature to an alternate white point and uploaded custom tone curves leaving the factory 3x3 Matrix LUT in place and it looks great.

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post #1858 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I have had the occasional crash on earlier builds, but they were sporadic and infrequent. Usually a quick reboot of my laptop solved it and it wouldn't crash again. I put it down to maybe something running in the background on my laptop causing a conflict.



I have seen someone mention that targeting an alternate white point in HDR didn't work for them. It was something I was going to try out at some point to help him troubleshoot but I haven't got around to doing it yet. Try maybe just recalibrating to the default D65 and see if it solves your issue as I believe that is what he did for now.



1. AutoCal resets both the 1D & 3D LUTs when pressing Full DDC Reset so you are measuring the native panel. Colour Temp settings are bypassed.

2. In each Picture Mode there is an option to reset it. Scroll below Expert Controls/Picture Options/Apply To All Inputs. It is there at the bottom.

3. Not that I am aware. When you calibrate a Picture Mode it loads a LUT table specific to that Picture Mode for all inputs on the TV. Other settings such as OLED Light etc, and post processing settings such as TruMotion must be manually transferred to each input though.




You can get some pretty good results if you take the time to play around with it a little, but to be totally honest, all I have done with my C9 at the moment is to reset it to defaults, pre calibrate a colour temperature to an alternate white point and uploaded custom tone curves leaving the factory 3x3 Matrix LUT in place and it looks great.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I have seen a LOT of discussion around color-temp/white-point in this thread and assumed it applied to both SDR and HDR calibrations since I've never seen anything calling out one vs the other.... so all HDR/DV calibrations should only be undertaken with the D65 white point setting to get the best results?

You had previously indicated that I could consider loading an LG template for the meter I am using. If I can't improve the results I am getting that is something I might have to consider. Can you point me towards more info on that? In scanning this big thread I have not run across that specific information.

Thanks.
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post #1859 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I have seen a LOT of discussion around color-temp/white-point in this thread and assumed it applied to both SDR and HDR calibrations since I've never seen anything calling out one vs the other.... so all HDR/DV calibrations should only be undertaken with the D65 white point setting to get the best results?

You had previously indicated that I could consider loading an LG template for the meter I am using. If I can't improve the results I am getting that is something I might have to consider. Can you point me towards more info on that? In scanning this big thread I have not run across that specific information.

Thanks.
Just remember, everyone see's color slightly differently and using alternate white points is a personal decision on what looks best to you. There is no right or wrong. This discussion has been going on for years and I believe D-Nice has done probably the most experimenting to my knowledge at least since the plasma days. If one of the alternate WPs work for you great but if not I would just use D65.
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post #1860 of 1923 Old 03-27-2020, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Just remember, everyone see's color slightly differently and using alternate white points is a personal decision on what looks best to you. There is no right or wrong. This discussion has been going on for years and I believe D-Nice has done probably the most experimenting to my knowledge at least since the plasma days. If one of the alternate WPs work for you great but if not I would just use D65.
Thanks John. From previous calibrations that I've done I am familiar with the initial impulse to feel that the calibrated image looks 'wrong' due to natural inclination to prefer for example a cooler or warmer color temp than what is accurate.

I'm seeing something different here. There is definitely a flat/green look to the image. Perhaps due to my inexperience I somehow misconfigured something or maybe this meter I am using is just really way out from reference.

I will re-do my HDR cal using the D65 white point just to see if that changes anything.
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