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post #2581 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
Never mind.

Do NOT use Calman for HDR. The moment you remove the factory LUT you're toast.

My entire green tones are single minded, casting blue on earthy tones, and the subtle shades of green are replaced with disgusting single shades of green

I PM'd Tyler my email address quite a while ago to follow up with this exact issue. No email has come.

If anyone has successfully calibrated HDR Cinema or HDR Game mode using Autocal, please step forward. This is a broken product.
I've never got or seen this problem. HDR calibration works perfectly for me and i've been doing a lot recently. Make sure you report and send your pictures on the Portrait web site under Support/Feedback or your problem may never be resolved.

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post #2582 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 09:11 AM
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post #2583 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
Never mind.

Do NOT use Calman for HDR. The moment you remove the factory LUT you're toast.

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I'm thinking a lot of issues with LUTs are AIO mode related. I shouldn't be considering buying a C6 just because I'm forced to wait for a software update.
Yes, the AIO mode aspect with that meter is what many people have been saying for years. Which is precisely why it was supposed to be being added. Except, it wasn't added! .
However, note that pros with very very expensive Klien meters still sometimes get the same LUT issues, the same yellow spikes etc, so we all already know for months that it's not that. It's completely random which hinders trouble-shooting. Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you don't. The 2018 thread has a lot more discussion, no point going over it all again here.

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post #2584 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
My question is why my pre-cal validation looks great, but after completing a Matrix LUT, whether I've done the grayscale or not, I get MUCH worse color checker results, and the color displacement anomolies.

I was told by Tyler that this is due to the Alpha7 chip on the B8 being "inferior" to the A9, but I'm going to call bull on that.



I'm actually going to be purchasing a C8 model very soon, so that statement will be put to the test. If the B8 series was "inferior" then why am I getting better results and less banding in HDR before touching the Matrix LUT?

Do me a favor, because I will be post a ColorChecker SG video in real-time before and after a normal Calman workflow. At which point you can point out where I made a mistake, because although Calman is correcting the 1D LUT quite well, I'm extremely sensitive to color changes and so is my fiance. We notice the issue/anomoly immediately.

I do not have the issue with Dolby Vision. I had a perfect Dolby Vision calibration meaning everything was under 1-2 DE after I was done. This is only affecting HDR10.

The alpha 7 powered B8 has essentially the same chip as the B7/C7/E7/G7. The major limitation in HDR10 mode is that it adds “white boost” equally in all parts of the HDR10/HLG color volume. Where as with the Alpha 9 chips, white boost is only applied to the higher parts of the color volume.

The result of this is the less accurate colors in the lower parts of the color volume on the alpha 7. LG may be compensating for this in their factory 3D LUT on the B8.

You might want to try just doing the gray scale calibration and never doing a full DDC reset for that HDR picture mode. In theory this would leave the factory 3D LUT in place.


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post #2585 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 09:43 AM
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You know what really annoys me and I don't think this has been mentioned is why does Calman have a picture of a I-Display meter on there walkthrough or software but have a C6 as there meter in there settings.

https://kb.portrait.com/help/calman-...on-walkthrough

To anyone that buys this software, would assume good software support with this meter if it's on the freaking picture, but no. It has no proper EDR support, no proper AIO mode support.

So I ask @WiFi-Spy if your not going to properly support this meter, take the I-Display probe off the Picture for Calman, this is false advertisement in my mind and had I known before I wouldn't have invested in any of the software or hardware. Or maybe if I had known the reality of this without going through 87 pages in the hope of proper support I may have bought the C6 in the first place but that ain't going to happen now. I have factory reset my C9 and am happy with the OOTB picture, my patience has run out on this software. My blessings to those that put up with this, I'm just going to enjoy my TV, I thought Autocal sounded like a great idea at the time boy was I wrong.

Jim
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post #2586 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
My question is why my pre-cal validation looks great, but after completing a Matrix LUT, whether I've done the grayscale or not, I get MUCH worse color checker results, and the color displacement anomolies.

I was told by Tyler that this is due to the Alpha7 chip on the B8 being "inferior" to the A9, but I'm going to call bull on that.



I'm actually going to be purchasing a C8 model very soon, so that statement will be put to the test. If the B8 series was "inferior" then why am I getting better results and less banding in HDR before touching the Matrix LUT?

Do me a favor, because I will be post a ColorChecker SG video in real-time before and after a normal Calman workflow. At which point you can point out where I made a mistake, because although Calman is correcting the 1D LUT quite well, I'm extremely sensitive to color changes and so is my fiance. We notice the issue/anomoly immediately.

I do not have the issue with Dolby Vision. I had a perfect Dolby Vision calibration meaning everything was under 1-2 DE after I was done. This is only affecting HDR10.

The alpha 7 powered B8 has essentially the same chip as the B7/C7/E7/G7. The major limitation in HDR10 mode is that it adds “white boost” equally in all parts of the HDR10/HLG color volume. Where as with the Alpha 9 chips, white boost is only applied to the higher parts of the color volume.

The result of this is the less accurate colors in the lower parts of the color volume on the alpha 7. LG may be compensating for this in their factory 3D LUT on the B8.

You might want to try just doing the gray scale calibration and never doing a full DDC reset for that HDR picture mode. In theory this would leave the factory 3D LUT in place.


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Can I simply put the TV into Enable Calibration mode and use 20 pt to target 2.2?

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post #2587 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
You know what really annoys me and I don't think this has been mentioned is why does Calman have a picture of a I-Display meter on there walkthrough or software but have a C6 as there meter in there settings.

https://kb.portrait.com/help/calman-...on-walkthrough

To anyone that buys this software, would assume good software support with this meter if it's on the freaking picture, but no. It has no proper EDR support, no proper AIO mode support.

Jim
In CalMAN, the I1 Display Pro has always used only the stock X-Rite EDRs that are distributed with the SDK. Spectracal/Portrait has never said otherwise. And AIO, as essentially an improved auto-sync function, isn't the magic bullet some people here seem to think it is. Careful meter setup and positioning is still more important than AIO. Custom drivers have been used by CalMAN since it first supported the I1D3. As Tyler has said in an earlier post, they didn't feel that AIO brought anything to the table when it was introduced. They are adding support at customer request, and it should be in the final public release of 2020.
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post #2588 of 2700 Old 05-21-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
In CalMAN, the I1 Display Pro has always used only the stock X-Rite EDRs that are distributed with the SDK. Spectracal/Portrait has never said otherwise. And AIO, as essentially an improved auto-sync function, isn't the magic bullet some people here seem to think it is. Careful meter setup and positioning is still more important than AIO. Custom drivers have been used by CalMAN since it first supported the I1D3. As Tyler has said in an earlier post, they didn't feel that AIO brought anything to the table when it was introduced. They are adding support at customer request, and it should be in the final public release of 2020.
I appreciate your reply and understand mostly on what you have said. Perhaps I should have been more specific to WOLED EDR's but in any case if Calman is adding support to the final release of 2020 I can wait till then for another go.

Also, I appreciate the active members here including Tyler that dedicate themselves to this thread and speak of subjects well above my knowledge of TV calibration. I know from my knowledge of calibrating home theaters that there is no such thing as a plug and play system (Autocal) and one must learn the process to a certain degree before achieving more desirable results. And the rabbit hole gets deeper the more you learn which makes both addictive and fun. On Spare changes channel recently it was great to hear John and D-Nice speak about this and the passion they have for this, although this is there is a job, it certainly looks to be a job to take seriously and enjoy.

I suppose my last post may have come across more in frustration rather than constructive. Which generally is not my character, I suppose I honestly get more satisfaction looking at measurements on REW than colors and greyscale on Calman and the changes I make in Dirac or Audyssey give me more tangible and audible feedback and satisfaction.

For example, I did a calibration on CM with Cinema with the FSI EDR 100nits and compared that to Stock Technicolor with White balance color set to Warm 2. I found the difference to be so subtle, there was difference no doubt but for me it wasn't game-changing, now perhaps my Tv OOTB has a good native calibration. So I'm switching between these two modes with different material trying to work what is more correct and what I prefer and to be honest I'd be happy with either or. So in the end for me the investment I made just confirmed that the C9 in my case is crazy good as far as delta errors go and I think I'll stick with the HT calibrations instead

Thanks

Jim
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post #2589 of 2700 Old 05-22-2020, 05:26 AM
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Make sure you report and send your pictures on the Portrait web site under Support/Feedback or your problem may never be resolved.
But this is by no means a guarantee that they will fix a problem. Or even respond to a bug report. I reported a bug 6 months ago, there was a follow-up question, then I never heard of Portrait Display again.
The beta version came out, the problem still existed, I sent another bug report and again I didn't even get an answer.
Today I sent another bug report in a last attempt.

You can imagine that I am getting pretty annoyed ...
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post #2590 of 2700 Old 05-22-2020, 06:19 AM
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But this is by no means a guarantee that they will fix a problem. Or even respond to a bug report. I reported a bug 6 months ago, there was a follow-up question, then I never heard of Portrait Display again.
The beta version came out, the problem still existed, I sent another bug report and again I didn't even get an answer.
Today I sent another bug report in a last attempt.

You can imagine that I am getting pretty annoyed ...
What most are missing, and it's not always obvious, is most of the time a problem that looks like a CM bug is related to user error, equipment that's not set up correctly or a problem in the TVs firmware or 3rd party processing like from Dolby for example. This is why sometimes a report of a "bug" may not get fixed in a timely manner, because it's not a problem in CM. Now i agree, better feedback would be welcomed so we are not left in the dark on some of these issues. Also when you report a bug, most of the time PD will be able to figure out if it's a user problem or something else that needs looking into which is why you need to turn on debug in CM, do another run to reproduce the problem then send it to them under Support/Feedback on the PD web site. Firmware related issues are true for ALL TV Manufacturers, not just LG and LG does a great job in trying to fix and or improve as much as they can. There are also other problems imbedded in the CM software that get fixed over time or new features that are coming and Tyler gives us that information along with the release notes. But for sure if you don't report bugs and just complain here, very little or nothing will get resolved.

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post #2591 of 2700 Old 05-22-2020, 07:16 AM
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Thanks for your answer John, are you becoming the new "Portrait Displays Evangelist" ?

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This is why sometimes a report of a "bug" may not get fixed in a timely manner, because it's not a problem in CM. Now i agree, better feedback would be welcomed so we are not left in the dark on some of these issues.
Since I myself have been working in the IT business for many years, I am well aware of how bug reports work.
However, not giving any feedback to a report is the worst kind of support you can provide.

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Also when you report a bug, most of the time PD will be able to figure out if it's a user problem or something else that needs looking into which is why you need to turn on debug in CM, do another run to reproduce the problem then send it to them under Support/Feedback on the PD web site.
That's what makes it all the more annoying when you don't even get a short answer. You have to invest more than an hour to make a test calibration and create a bug report with all the details and it's like a slap in the face when you don't even get any form of feedback.

Even if it's not a really a CalMAN problem a simple "We have analyzed your report and everything points to a hardware defect of the colorimeter." or sth. like "We were able to reproduce the problem, it will eventually be fixed, but we don't have a specific date when that will be." would help any customer.

In my opinion, PD should also implement a "send report" feature directly in the Post-Calibration Screen, which collects all necessary data and with which a report can be sent directly to PD. But that is another topic...

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But for sure if you don't report bugs and just complain here, very little or nothing will get resolved.
I'm sure you're not referring to me. But to emphasize this again: I have already reported the problem directly to PD several times and additionally posted it here in the forum. For the simple reason that these kinds of problems should not be hushed up.
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^^^
Right my post was for everyone.
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post #2593 of 2700 Old 05-22-2020, 09:06 AM
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Just tried an autocal on Technicolour sdr, out of the box settings... and the results were all over the place.

Never had this issue doing expert bright. Will try again next week.

Using an i1d3 pro meter.


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post #2594 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 09:15 AM
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^^^
Right my post was for everyone. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
John, bought a 65 C9.

Breaking the set in, but do you need to upload the Dolby Config file or does the Custom Tone Mapping feature also set the peak luminance for Dolby Vision?

Basically, if I tell Calman/TV that my peak 10% output is 740 nits and upload the custom mapping, does the Dolby Vision use that information?

Thanks. And you were right. C9 has much better color reproduction.
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post #2595 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 09:18 AM
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John, bought a 65 C9.

Breaking the set in, but do you need to upload the Dolby Config file or does the Custom Tone Mapping feature also set the peak luminance for Dolby Vision?

Basically, if I tell Calman/TV that my peak 10% output is 740 nits and upload the custom mapping, does the Dolby Vision use that information?

Thanks. And you were right. C9 has much better color reproduction.
DV and HDR totally separate. For DV you need to create and load new CFG files.
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post #2596 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
John, bought a 65 C9.

Breaking the set in, but do you need to upload the Dolby Config file or does the Custom Tone Mapping feature also set the peak luminance for Dolby Vision?

Basically, if I tell Calman/TV that my peak 10% output is 740 nits and upload the custom mapping, does the Dolby Vision use that information?

Thanks. And you were right. C9 has much better color reproduction.
DV and HDR totally separate. For DV you need to create and load new CFG files.
Thank you. And to confirm the HDR gradient issue was isolated to the 65" B8.

I'm still only using Calman for Custom Tone Curves and DoVi config as the C9 has less than 1 DE on gamma and color checker ootb. Very happy. Especially with the HGIG option.
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post #2597 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 11:33 AM
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DV and HDR totally separate. For DV you need to create and load new CFG files.
Would I still have to load CFG if I am only using SM white balance?

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post #2598 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 11:39 AM
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Would I still have to load CFG if I am only using SM white balance?
No, you don't have to. You just do the SM white balance in the SM.
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post #2599 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 12:26 PM
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No, you don't have to. You just do the SM white balance in the SM.
Thanks for your quick response.

I encountered something unexpected in HDR cal. I am using the iTPG btw, does it matter what the SM Oled light value is at when taking readings? I assumed it did as I kept the user menu at 100 and SM value at 100 as well.

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post #2600 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 01:59 PM
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Would I still have to load CFG if I am only using SM white balance?
No, you don't have to. You just do the SM white balance in the SM.
I'll validate on my C9 tonight with an external pattern. Dolby Vision on the B8 was tracking far left of the PQ EOTF curve that the only fix was to do a config file.

If the C9 tracks accurately out of the box in Cinema mode vs with the Config file I can validate on my set tonight.
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post #2601 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 02:01 PM
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Would I still have to load CFG if I am only using SM white balance?

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According to LG, Yes.
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post #2602 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 02:02 PM
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No, you don't have to. You just do the SM white balance in the SM.
Thanks for your quick response.

I encountered something unexpected in HDR cal. I am using the iTPG btw, does it matter what the SM Oled light value is at when taking readings? I assumed it did as I kept the user menu at 100 and SM value at 100 as well.

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I just use the SDR work flow. I put up a 100IRE pattern and calibrate to 100 nits with the SM controls.

You can adjust the OLED light for different sources afterwards.

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post #2603 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I'll validate on my C9 tonight with an external pattern. Dolby Vision on the B8 was tracking far left of the PQ EOTF curve that the only fix was to do a config file.

If the C9 tracks accurately out of the box in Cinema mode vs with the Config file I can validate on my set tonight.
Cool! Let me know if you are using an alternate white point too. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
According to LG, Yes.
Thanks! Interesting! I have had some very appreciated assistance from a couple posters here, but this was never mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I just use the SDR work flow. I put up a 100IRE pattern and calibrate to 100 nits with the SM controls.

You can adjust the OLED light for different sources afterwards.
Thanks! Interesting as well that I originally thought this was the case and informed HDR must me done separately as it is a completely different luminance and readings.

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post #2604 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMINENT1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I'll validate on my C9 tonight with an external pattern. Dolby Vision on the B8 was tracking far left of the PQ EOTF curve that the only fix was to do a config file.

If the C9 tracks accurately out of the box in Cinema mode vs with the Config file I can validate on my set tonight.
Cool! Let me know if you are using an alternate white point too. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
According to LG, Yes.
Thanks! Interesting! I have had some very appreciated assistance from a couple posters here, but this was never mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I just use the SDR work flow. I put up a 100IRE pattern and calibrate to 100 nits with the SM controls.

You can adjust the OLED light for different sources afterwards.
Thanks! Interesting as well that I originally thought this was the case and informed HDR must me done separately as it is a completely different luminance and readings.
I ended up using D-Nice white point in the Service Menu. .3085 .3285 was my target.

Pre cal measured maximum 1.0 DE for grayscale and 0.7 for Colorchecker SE, so I skipped 1D LUT Autocal.

Uploaded peak luminance for HDR at 750 nits and switched to Dolby Vision only doing the config file.

Config file, again, smoothed out the EOTF tracking, and confirmed that the SM 2pt adjustment kept my white point.

The config file will always say .3127 .3290 just FYI.

Very happy with the purchase of the C9. Calibrating my B8 and selling tomorrow.
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post #2605 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 08:34 PM
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I downloaded and installed the Calman Home 2020 beta software. I was able to use it to calibrate my 2020 CX 77 in SDR, HDR, and DV modes. I don't have any crushed black issue in SDR on my display. In HDR and DV, my workflow differed from the 2019 workflow videos for some reason, as I never got the step to measure the peak panel luminance and upload a custom tone map curve. Is this normal behavior in Calman Home 2020, or is this a limitation imposed by current firmware version on the TV?
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post #2606 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I ended up using D-Nice white point in the Service Menu. .3085 .3285 was my target.

Pre cal measured maximum 1.0 DE for grayscale and 0.7 for Colorchecker SE, so I skipped 1D LUT Autocal.

Uploaded peak luminance for HDR at 750 nits and switched to Dolby Vision only doing the config file.

Config file, again, smoothed out the EOTF tracking, and confirmed that the SM 2pt adjustment kept my white point.

The config file will always say .3127 .3290 just FYI.

Very happy with the purchase of the C9. Calibrating my B8 and selling tomorrow.
I wonder what I am doing wrong or is my panel or meter just that far off from yours?

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
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post #2607 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMINENT1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I ended up using D-Nice white point in the Service Menu. .3085 .3285 was my target.

Pre cal measured maximum 1.0 DE for grayscale and 0.7 for Colorchecker SE, so I skipped 1D LUT Autocal.

Uploaded peak luminance for HDR at 750 nits and switched to Dolby Vision only doing the config file.

Config file, again, smoothed out the EOTF tracking, and confirmed that the SM 2pt adjustment kept my white point.

The config file will always say .3127 .3290 just FYI.

Very happy with the purchase of the C9. Calibrating my B8 and selling tomorrow.
I wonder what I am doing wrong or is my panel or meter just that far off from yours?

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
1) I'm using a profiled meter. Are you using the FSI EDR? If you don't know what that is, use Raw XYZ, OLED is meant for RGB OLEDs like studio masters.

2) I'm just calibrating the white balance in the service menu. I'm not using Calman to do 26 or or 20 pt. I'm getting these results input from the service menu tweak.

3) See about getting your meter profiled before messing with alternative white points. I tried before profiling and my meter was off considerably.
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post #2608 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
1) I'm using a profiled meter. Are you using the FSI EDR? If you don't know what that is, use Raw XYZ, OLED is meant for RGB OLEDs like studio masters.

2) I'm just calibrating the white balance in the service menu. I'm not using Calman to do 26 or or 20 pt. I'm getting these results input from the service menu tweak.

3) See about getting your meter profiled before messing with alternative white points. I tried before profiling and my meter was off considerably.
Yeah, I am using the FSI edr that replaced OLED.

Going to try a pre cal with Raw and see what happens. Thanks!

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post #2609 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
1) I'm using a profiled meter. Are you using the FSI EDR? If you don't know what that is, use Raw XYZ, OLED is meant for RGB OLEDs like studio masters.

2) I'm just calibrating the white balance in the service menu. I'm not using Calman to do 26 or or 20 pt. I'm getting these results input from the service menu tweak.

3) See about getting your meter profiled before messing with alternative white points. I tried before profiling and my meter was off considerably.

Forgot to add my meter isn't profiled. So I am not expecting so much. Does this look more in line with what you would expect with an unprofiled meter using Raw XYZ and D65?
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post #2610 of 2700 Old 05-23-2020, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
John, bought a 65 C9.

Breaking the set in, but do you need to upload the Dolby Config file or does the Custom Tone Mapping feature also set the peak luminance for Dolby Vision?

Basically, if I tell Calman/TV that my peak 10% output is 740 nits and upload the custom mapping, does the Dolby Vision use that information?
Congrats! I agree with John. The Custom Tone Mapping only applies to HDR, not Dolby Vision. To optimize Dolby Vision tone mapping for the real peak luminance capability of your particular C9, you need to create and upload a custom Dolby Configuration File. Otherwise I assume that the factory Dolby Configuration is going to base DV tone mapping on a peak luminance of 700 nits (which may well be in the ballpark and close enough).
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