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post #2821 of 2906 Old 06-24-2020, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
If that is the case, my HDR workflow in Calman Home 2020 (5.11.0.163) is not configured correctly. (It's the default workflow. I haven't even looked at it before today.) Selecting the HDR workflow consistently results in Colorspace Target: BT.2020 HDR and Gamma Formula: ST 2084 HDR (PQ). BT.2020 HDR and ST 2084 HDR (PQ) are also the calibration targets Tyler has loaded in his "LG C9 OLED 2019 Calibration HDR with CalMAN Home" tutorial video. So if those targets are wrong, the video is too.

The TV is in native 2.2 gamma when the unity LUTs are loaded during the DDC reset, but that's not what we're TARGETING as a desired result of the calibration. We're TARGETING ST 2084 HDR (PQ) as our desired result. If we target 2.2 gamma CalMAN will create LUTs targeting 2.2 gamma as the desired final result.
When you click "Enable Calibration" and see the screen brighten, that's the TV putting the panel into native 2.2 gamma mode. No EOTF processing is occurring.

Watch the workflow for calibrating HDR, it's a 2.2 relative gamma curve. Surely you know this? When you calibrate in Relative mode to target a flat 2.2 gamma, the TV uses that information to transcribe EOTF / HDR content to PQ. It also uses that information with the Custom Tone Curve you upload at the end.

You can use the exact same DDC values for 20 pt calibration for HDR Cinema, Game, Technicolor and Dolby Vision and they will all be for a 2.2 gamma curve. You then simply do the HDR Matrix LUT, or Dolby Config and you're done.

I've made the mistake of trying to calibrate to PQ, it destroys your image. I think you're glancing at either the pre-calibration setup, or both the Pre/Post Measurements and seeing BT2020 HDR / PQ EOTF. During grayscale calibration you should be working with SDRBT2020 and 2.2 gamma.
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post #2822 of 2906 Old 06-24-2020, 04:02 PM
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Well notice WHERE my photo above it at , it's not so much in the work flow as it is in the settings. I was looking through the settings looking for something OFF because I KNOW my tv nits isn't 400. So when I seen something set to , its my middle picture. at the end of a calibration I noticed it saying BT2020 SDR. And I thought that's odd something says SDR when I'm trying to do HDR. BUT I also realize that's the in the settings pullout and not so much the work flow I was doing. Either way I posted pic of it cause its kinda confusing, but also might not be related to the actual current work flow I was doing. I don't know still don't know after reading the replies lol.

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post #2823 of 2906 Old 06-24-2020, 04:11 PM
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The workflow sets all of this automatically depending on which page in the workflow you are on.

The only way I could see you getting 400 nits is:

In the TV you have peak luminance setting set to something besides “high”

Or on the internal pattern generator configuration you have it set to SDR 709 instead of HDR 2020.

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post #2824 of 2906 Old 06-24-2020, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
I think you're glancing at either the pre-calibration setup, or both the Pre/Post Measurements and seeing BT2020 HDR / PQ EOTF. During grayscale calibration you should be working with SDRBT2020 and 2.2 gamma.
Ok, thanks! I see it now. I'm glad you made that last statement, or I might still be missing it. BT.2020 HDR / ST 2084 HDR PQ in the Pre-Calibration portion of the workflow, but automatically changing to BT.2020 SDR / Power Target Exponent 2.2 for the HDR Calibration portion and back to BT.2020 HDR / ST 2084 HDR PQ for the Post Calibration portion. I always preset this stuff during the pre-calibration setup, mostly by the same steps presented in the 2019 tutorial videos. I don't think I ever had a reason to look at the Workflow Basic Options during the calibration portion of the workflow, and didn't think about the targets changing for different steps of the same workflow.

I got pretty comfortable with manual SDR calibration using HCFR many years ago, and I've long followed and learned what I can from Video Essentials, Avia, Spears & Munsil, etc. But there are aspects of AutoCAL, and HDR/DV that still trip up my understanding because there's some little detail (like this) that I've never come across before. Maybe it was in a video or a discussion 2 or 3 years ago. CalMAN, AutoCAL and HDR/DV calibration are only 6 months old to me, and having an HDR/DV TV is only a year old to me. So in some ways I feel ahead, and in some ways I feel behind.

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post #2825 of 2906 Old 06-25-2020, 04:03 AM
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Well I went while HDR playing and hit reset on tv settings. Then this morning tried yet another calibration and it actually read brightness nit correctly. 730 or 740 nits, whichever it was I forget greyscale chart from it.


The other pic is from my run of SDR so looks like I ened up with .7 error so what I'm now a certified studio quality display.


BIG thanks for everyones help I still don't get what the issue was I mean there isn't that many settings in the tvs menu and I'd been over them 150 times I swear but anyway. Looking forward to stress free day of watching studio level quality. I've waited for this day for 25 yrs ...dreamed of having a near perfect reference picture. Good times...in these hard times.
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post #2826 of 2906 Old 06-25-2020, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtv00 View Post
Well I went while HDR playing and hit reset on tv settings. Then this morning tried yet another calibration and it actually read brightness nit correctly. 730 or 740 nits, whichever it was I forget greyscale chart from it.


The other pic is from my run of SDR so looks like I ened up with .7 error so what I'm now a certified studio quality display.


BIG thanks for everyones help I still don't get what the issue was I mean there isn't that many settings in the tvs menu and I'd been over them 150 times I swear but anyway. Looking forward to stress free day of watching studio level quality. I've waited for this day for 25 yrs ...dreamed of having a near perfect reference picture. Good times...in these hard times.
Charts can lie. Watching real content verifies.

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post #2827 of 2906 Old 06-25-2020, 04:50 PM
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Right but I was having all kinds of issues even getting to charts I knew weren't wrong. Now to do Dolby Vision after the sun goes down and its totally dark.

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post #2828 of 2906 Old 06-27-2020, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
I used x:0.308 y:0.313 as the white point for my most recent SDR calibration on my C9, and I've been mostly pleased with the results.

For similar reasons I have used x: .305 y: .322 as my alternate white point for HDR and Dolby Vision, which Tyler's clients have found as a good perceptual match for a Sony BVM-X300, which I assume much of my HDR/DV library has been mastered with.

Calibrating the C9 to x:0.305 y:0.322 to me looks like the same WB as the CX factory default in HDR.
Calibrating to a different white point in SDR vs HDR is a bit confusing to me. Is this a valid approach?
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post #2829 of 2906 Old 06-27-2020, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gellért View Post
Calibrating to a different white point in SDR vs HDR is a bit confusing to me. Is this a valid approach?
If my intent were to perceptually match the same display in SDR and HDR, then no it wouldn't be valid. However my intent is to have SDR perceptually matched to a reference CRT monitor, and to have HDR/DV perceptually matched to the Sony BVM-X300 reference OLED monitor. 2 different white points for matches with two different monitors.
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post #2830 of 2906 Old 06-27-2020, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
I used x:0.308 y:0.313 as the white point for my most recent SDR calibration on my C9, and I've been mostly pleased with the results. .
What meter/ EDR?

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post #2831 of 2906 Old 06-27-2020, 10:52 PM
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What meter/ EDR?
i1Display EODIS3–XR Rev. B–02 (retail)/ FSI.

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post #2832 of 2906 Old 06-27-2020, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
What meter/ EDR?

bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
i1Display EODIS3–XR Rev. B–02 (retail)/ FSI.

I use the same WB since I read that piece of information. I like this x:0.308 y:0.313 the most as they look 'neutral' to me, but the other coordinates are great as well. They have an other look to them, the main difference being the 308-313 is more 'neutral'/magenta, while the rest is visually more green and yellow so in a sense they look more 'filmic'.
I used the 308-313 with the Display Pro Plus + FSI EDR and now I use it with the colorimeter matched to (Bodner) an iPro 2 (rev.E).
I'm not a professional calibrator, I don't grade AAA movies and don't have much experience calibrating - that's why I'm interested in other's opinion on what would be the best approach for the LG RGBW OLED panel specifically. (Since that's the one I have.)
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post #2833 of 2906 Old 06-28-2020, 01:29 PM
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Any suggestions for best custom HDR tone curves for LG C9?

Go for default, 50%@1000nits, 40% or 60%@4000, 30%or 40%@10000?

Or what values do you suggest for best image? Anyone tested different settings? I would like to hear your experiences.
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post #2834 of 2906 Old 06-28-2020, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrfabio View Post
Any suggestions for best custom HDR tone curves for LG C9?

Go for default, 50%@1000nits, 40% or 60%@4000, 30%or 40%@10000?

Or what values do you suggest for best image? Anyone tested different settings? I would like to hear your experiences.
The following is what I've been using. I like it better than the defaults. I haven't tried anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Here are the values we used at the 2019 UK TV Shootout. (To best match the Sony BVM-X300)

Dynamic Tone Mapping Off

1000

50

4000

40

10000

30
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post #2835 of 2906 Old 06-28-2020, 01:58 PM
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Is it possible to upload custom tone curves without altering the previous calibration (no DDC reset)? So we can try different tone curves before deciding which is best?
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post #2836 of 2906 Old 06-28-2020, 03:04 PM
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I have been away for awhile. Has much changed? I have been using the stock settings for a while and have gotten pretty used to them. I didn't like how I had problems with Auto-Cal with HDR and DV (although minor) I'm guessing they still have the same behavior.

What I wonder is how far off from factory are these sets. I see alot of reviews and have heard people with way better equipment say that they are not far off at all on stock. I am worried that when I calibrate with RawXYZ to D65 that I am taking it away from accuracy. I don't have the ability to profile.

I guess what I am wondering is at what point is it best just to leave be? D65 with RawXYZ does make it look more green but I guess what I don't know ow is what it is supposed to look like, haha. Any input would be much appreciated, thank you all.


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post #2837 of 2906 Old 06-28-2020, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
The following is what I've been using. I like it better than the defaults. I haven't tried anything else.
This is not directed at you, so please don't take it the wrong way. But I don't find it very professional when blindly recommending values without explaining the background or why these values should be considered good.

An important thing to mention here is that the use of a roll-off point always means that there is a deviation from the PQ curve from this point on and, strictly speaking, the image is displayed inaccurately with a kind of compression. This is not necessarily a bad thing for consumer displays and needed to avoid hard clipping, but a 30% roll-off point also means that 70% of the luminance range is displayed inaccurately.

There are other professionals who recommend following the PQ curve to ~500 cd/m² as described in this article.
There's also an excellent article on displaycalibrations.com about the PQ curve.

If you want the most accurate picture, you have to set the roll-off points to 100%, which leads to hard-clipping.
Otherwise, as always, it is a question of personal taste what one likes best.
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post #2838 of 2906 Old 06-28-2020, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFi4Vision View Post
This is not directed at you, so please don't take it the wrong way. But I don't find it very professional when blindly recommending values without explaining the background or why these values should be considered good.

An important thing to mention here is that the use of a roll-off point always means that there is a deviation from the PQ curve from this point on and, strictly speaking, the image is displayed inaccurately with a kind of compression. This is not necessarily a bad thing for consumer displays and needed to avoid hard clipping, but a 30% roll-off point also means that 70% of the luminance range is displayed inaccurately.

There are other professionals who recommend following the PQ curve to ~500 cd/m² as described in this article.
There's also an excellent article on displaycalibrations.com about the PQ curve.

If you want the most accurate picture, you have to set the roll-off points to 100%, which leads to hard-clipping.
Otherwise, as always, it is a question of personal taste what one likes best.

These values were derived by matching the 1000nit HDR reference monitor visually. Isn’t the goal of a rolloff to maintain creative intent?

Also having the TV hard clip does not make it more accurate for movie content. PQ hard clip should only be used for content creation and for the HGIG compatible games.


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post #2839 of 2906 Old 06-29-2020, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
These values were derived by matching the 1000nit HDR reference monitor visually. Isn’t the goal of a rolloff to maintain creative intent?
So, you're saying a subjective image comparison was made between a C9 and the Sony BVM-X300. Are you saying that with this method and the values obtained with it the best possible image quality for all content is achieved, or what is your statement?

And what exactly were the test parameters used for this test? How many people made the comparison under which environmental conditions? Which contents / movies were compared? How did you determine the roll-off points for movies with MaxDML 4000? How did you determine the values and compare content with MaxCLL >1000 Nits?

Actually it is unnecessary to explain this, but the issue with the raised black levels has proven that it is important who and how many people make such comparisons.
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post #2840 of 2906 Old 06-29-2020, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
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So, you're saying a subjective image comparison was made between a C9 and the Sony BVM-X300. Are you saying that with this method and the values obtained with it the best possible image quality for all content is achieved, or what is your statement?
I'm sure Tyler will reply for himself with the technical details later.

But in answer to the original post from @Mrfabio where he said
Quote:
Any suggestions for best custom HDR tone curves for LG C9?

Go for default, 50%@1000nits, 40% or 60%@4000, 30%or 40%@10000?

Or what values do you suggest for best image? Anyone tested different settings? I would like to hear your experiences.
The SHORT answer, avoiding any kind of argument, giving the same point we're now at, would have been:
"Yes, we like 50%@1000nits, 40%@4000, 30%@10000"! The end!

That would have been shorter and easier, and bizarrely ended with the same result. Probably pointless? I only say this since the whole discussion we've had (just quoting Tyler's info from the UK shootout) is pretty much agreeing with his starting point, without actually mentioning that it all agreeing with his starting point! We therefore haven't really moved from square one on this (ignoring the "or 60%" and "or 40%" of course). So it hasn't really yielded much in the way of "alternative settings that other people have tried", so probably less useful than Mrfabio had hoped for. Or maybe he's pleased that he had the same idea

IIRC at the UK shootout last year, they were surprised to see that changing the default 1000nits roll-off down to 50% matched the Sony mastering display much better than the defaults did, but found it interesting enough to share just the idea. So that you lucky C9 owners who can change these things can try it. As to the rigour with which that conclusion was arrived, again Tyler will have to answer on that point.
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post #2841 of 2906 Old 06-29-2020, 04:47 AM
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I like the discussion on which tone curve you prefer and why. That is what forums are for? I do lots of gaming and find default and Tylers setting a bit dim sometimes. Of course, HGIG is best when games are supported (in game HDR slider enabled).

I have done some testing and like 80%@1000, 70%@4000, 60%@10000. It is a compromise between bright punch and loosing details. I have tested these tone curves on games like Horizon Zero Dawn and The Last of Us 2, which goes up to 2500 and 4000nits. I have not tested for 10000nits.

However, I do not see any differences when uploading different tone curves to different picture modes. Perhaps the custom tone curves are global for all picture modes?

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post #2842 of 2906 Old 06-29-2020, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Folks, when i read this thread sometimes i just can't figure out why some people are having so many problems. My guess it's usually related to the pattern generator and your settings. I think it's best to always go back to the CM video on the PD web site to make sure you have everything set up correctly. And remember if you are using the iTPG you need to download the SDR, HDR and DV files that you need to load on a usb drive and have playing in the background. I don't use CM Home or the iTPG but you need to have everything set up just right for it all to work properly. Also i see most like to "play" with all the settings when they get their set. Best to just reset the PM to the default settings, turn off any motion processing, etc, and calibrate.

As far as calibrating HDR and DV, before autocal, we calibrated both manually. It worked but you really need to know what you are doing and all the tricks for your set to get a good result. Sometimes only 1 click of RGB for a specific low ire and you get artifacts. You can get a good result with Autocal but again because the set is unstable with the high nit patches, you need to set your black frame insertion to 5/5/25 as recommended and if you have a service remote turn off ABSL, also turn off the pixel shift and the logo dimmer. I know many have the i1D3 or a C6 meter but they should read pretty fast with these patches. The faster the better. When i calibrate these modes manually, i have the patch up for a second then display 25% gray, that's how fast the set will drift.

As far as the HDR peak brightness level you are reading. I know this isn't what you want to hear but you can't rely on your reading unless your meter is profiled with a spectro. Even an i1ProX will work. Anything else may not be accurate and it doesn't matter. Whether your set reads 680 nits or 720 nits, you are not going to see the difference unless you have a reference or magic eyes. But as a rule you should see readings anywhere from 650-740 nits. Some sets will read higher but the majority are in this range once calibrated to D65. Measuring peak brightness is very dependent on how you meter is reading the spectral response of the panel. This has been discussed a lot over the years but depending on your meter and how it's profiled if it is at all can give you readings up to +- 100 nits. OOTB measurements are totally useless unless you plan to use the TV as it comes from the factory. So the point is calibrate your set as best as possible and don't worry about the measured peak brightness unless it's way low and out of spec.

I do use the 5/5/25 but don’t go into the service menu to turn off ABSL, is that a problem? I am able to do so so maybe I should?

Also are you saying that for uploading custom tone mapping values or setting SDR peak brightness, that the nit values we get from an i1 Display pro will be inaccurate, wouldn’t that also affect all of the calibration as well? Perhaps I misunderstood.


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post #2843 of 2906 Old 06-29-2020, 08:40 AM
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I exclusively use HGiG for gaming in HDR.

Tyler's curves for HDR Cinema.

Everything else is Dolby Vision.

HDR Cinema is definitely different than HDR Game in how the tone mapping is applied. HDR showing a much larger leap in DTM brightness between the two.

So yeah.

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post #2844 of 2906 Old 06-30-2020, 03:06 PM
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So when it asks for the IP address to connect to the display (LG OLED CX65) I enter it and then it says it's trying to connect and then nothing really seems to happen. No error message, but it's definitely not connecting, no options or anything show up. Same for trying to connect to internal pattern generator.

TV is connected to the router and PC connected to the same router. Under network settings I can find the TV appearing on the PC. And the TV is able to do stuff like stream youtube. But Calman doesn't seem to see it all for some reason.
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post #2845 of 2906 Old 06-30-2020, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post
So when it asks for the IP address to connect to the display (LG OLED CX65) I enter it and then it says it's trying to connect and then nothing really seems to happen. No error message, but it's definitely not connecting, no options or anything show up. Same for trying to connect to internal pattern generator.

TV is connected to the router and PC connected to the same router. Under network settings I can find the TV appearing on the PC. And the TV is able to do stuff like stream youtube. But Calman doesn't seem to see it all for some reason.

Can you ping the TV ip address from your Windows machine using the command line?


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post #2846 of 2906 Old 06-30-2020, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post
So when it asks for the IP address to connect to the display (LG OLED CX65) I enter it and then it says it's trying to connect and then nothing really seems to happen. No error message, but it's definitely not connecting, no options or anything show up. Same for trying to connect to internal pattern generator.

TV is connected to the router and PC connected to the same router. Under network settings I can find the TV appearing on the PC. And the TV is able to do stuff like stream youtube. But Calman doesn't seem to see it all for some reason.
I had the same experience. No idea why. I could not see the TV's address from my web browser but could PING it. Could also see it from my router management software. CalMAN would not connect. My solution was to un-register one CalMAN, use another computer, then register CalMAN on that. Done.

| LG OLED55C9, Firmware v04.80.03 | Denon AVR-X3400H, Firmware v7600-8281-6432-2065 | ATV 4K | Sony UBP-X700 | Hsu HC-1 MK2 (C) & HB-1 MK2 (LRSur), Sub VTF-15H MK2, ELAC Atmos | X-Rite i1D3 OEM | 2020 CalMAN Home for LG build 163 |

Last edited by mhmercer; 06-30-2020 at 07:10 PM.
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post #2847 of 2906 Old 06-30-2020, 07:01 PM
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If you have a software firewall (Windows built-in or another) running on the computer, it may be blocking the connection.

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post #2848 of 2906 Old 06-30-2020, 07:43 PM
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Why not just connect an Ethernet cable directly between the TV and the computer to get around the issues?

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post #2849 of 2906 Old 07-01-2020, 11:59 AM
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Why not just connect an Ethernet cable directly between the TV and the computer to get around the issues?

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I tired using Ethernet as well as WiFi. A connection between the computer and the TV could be made either way. My laptop screen could be mirrored to the C9, so I know that the connection was solid. CalMAN still would time-out without connecting. Went with another computer. CalMAN connected immediately over WiFi.

| LG OLED55C9, Firmware v04.80.03 | Denon AVR-X3400H, Firmware v7600-8281-6432-2065 | ATV 4K | Sony UBP-X700 | Hsu HC-1 MK2 (C) & HB-1 MK2 (LRSur), Sub VTF-15H MK2, ELAC Atmos | X-Rite i1D3 OEM | 2020 CalMAN Home for LG build 163 |
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post #2850 of 2906 Old 07-02-2020, 07:50 AM
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I had the same experience. No idea why. I could not see the TV's address from my web browser but could PING it. Could also see it from my router management software. CalMAN would not connect. My solution was to un-register one CalMAN, use another computer, then register CalMAN on that. Done.
Sounds more like a device specific problem like a firewall or something...
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