Projector Calibration (6040UB) - Second Look - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 242 Old 06-28-2019, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I see, but I have not touched the CMS controls at all up to this point. Unless the CMS controls are related to the gamma or grayscale controls?
I just noticed that the Before and After saturation sweeps were measured at very different luminance levels - 58 nits vs 27 nits.

Were they in the same Picture Mode? Super white reduces luminance by only about 20%.
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post #32 of 242 Old 06-28-2019, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I just noticed that the Before and After saturation sweeps were measured at very different luminance levels - 58 nits vs 27 nits.

Were they in the same Picture Mode? Super white reduces luminance by only about 20%.
That will be because I closed the iris down manually as I read that 16fL is the recommended for front projection in light controlled environments.

With the iris wide open which is the default I was measuring 26.5 fL which was to bright from my environment.


Is this an issue?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 06-28-2019 at 09:21 PM.
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post #33 of 242 Old 06-28-2019, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you guys think of this?















The CMS adjustments did not do much for the 100% primaries & secondaries, I guess this is normal?

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post #34 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
What do you guys think of this?
These results look excellent. Care to post the settings, for those without the equipment and/or expertise?

Quote:
The CMS adjustments did not do much for the 100% primaries & secondaries, I guess this is normal?
The CMS adjustments in general cannot increase the 100% saturation levels (or maybe hue in some directions), as those are inherent limitations of the displays. However, they are often able to decrease the saturation.
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post #35 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
These results look excellent. Care to post the settings, for those without the equipment and/or expertise?


The CMS adjustments in general cannot increase the 100% saturation levels (or maybe hue in some directions), as those are inherent limitations of the displays. However, they are often able to decrease the saturation.
Sure I can post up my settings, I cant do it right now as I am not at home but I will be sure to later.

I did have a quick look at the other picture modes to see if they provide a better coverage of the color space & the Dynamic picture mode does as all the primaries are beyond the rec 709 triangle but when I tried to get the grayscale in line massive errors were present which the two point controls had little to no effect on correcting.

I remember when I first got this projector I used my Lumagen & its 3D LUT to calibrate & using the dynamic mode gleaned great results.

I guess because the Lumagen has a 21 point grayscale control & the 9x9x9 3D LUT to work with its no wonder even better results can be achieved.

I have attached the results I got back in 2016, amazing what autocal can do.


Shame I cant use the Lumagen now because of my setup & it being a HDMI 1.4 device.
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post #36 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I did have a quick look at the other picture modes to see if they provide a better coverage of the color space & the Dynamic picture mode does as all the primaries are beyond the rec 709 triangle but when I tried to get the grayscale in line massive errors were present which the two point controls had little to no effect on correcting..
Doesn’t Cinema mode also have wider gamut than Natural?
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post #37 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Doesn’t Cinema mode also have wider gamut than Natural?
Yes, it does, but at a significant cost to lumens.

Anyways, these calibration results look quite good. You probably won't do better on the 5040/6040. Nice work!
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post #38 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Many thanks guys for all your help & feedback with this, it really has been a massive help to know I am on the right path.



I will watch some content to see how everything looks, the only thing that I was thinking about was setting luminance at 16fL & if that is bright enough but I guess I will only know until I start watching content.


Now onto what I have been dreading a little & that is HDR.


I am a little at a loss at where to start seeing as there seems to be so many ways to tackle HDR on low nit displays.


I would like to use the light filter to get the expanded color gamut as I am in a light controlled environment so probably can afford to lose the output.


I guess Cinema mode is the place to start if I want to use the filter.


Is the workflow for HDR similar to SDR or are they very different?


I read using gamma formula BT2390 is preferred for calibrating HDR on projectors. CalMAN has this function with you also being able to input the displays measured white level.


Is the best place to start with brightness & contrast? I have R.Masciola's HDR test patterns, I presume I can use these to check brightness & contrast?
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post #39 of 242 Old 07-02-2019, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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As promised here are my settings for my SDR calibration.

SDR 2.4 20fL

Color Mode: Natural

Brightness: 53

Contrast: 47

Color Saturation: 50

Tint: 50

Power Consumption: ECO

Auto Iris: Off

Color Temp: 6000K

Skin Tone: 4

Colour Temp Customized

Offset R: 48 Offset G: 49 Offset B: 49

Gain R: 48 Gain G: 46 Gain B: 44

Sharpness:

Standard: 5

Thin Line Enhancement: 5

Thick Line Enhancement: 5

Image Enhancement: Preset 3

Gamma: Customized

Color Tone 1: 0

Color Tone 2: -9

Color Tone 3: -16

Color Tone 4: -17

Color Tone 5: -19

Color Tone 6: -18

Color Tone 7: -19

Color Tone 8: -24

Color Tone 9: 0


RGBCMY

Red

Hue: 54 Saturation: 38 Brightness: 56

Green

Hue: 74 Saturation: 88 Brightness: 29

Blue

Hue: 56 Saturation: 37 Brightness: 50

Cyan

Hue: 50 Saturation: 56 Brightness: 51

Magenta

Hue: 58 Saturation: 42 Brightness: 49

Yellow

Hue: 50 Saturation: 35 Brightness: 65

Super White: On

Lens iris: -8

Color Space: Auto

Dynamic Range: Auto

Image processing: Fine

Also here is my rough understanding of how the gamma controls map to grayscale points.

Color Tone 1: N/A

Color Tone 2: 10% to 20%

Color Tone 3: 30%

Color Tone 4: 30% & 40%

Color Tone 5: 40%

Color Tone 6: 50% to 70%

Color Tone 7: 60% to 80%

Color Tone 8: 80%

Color Tone 9: N/A
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Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-15-2019 at 10:05 PM.
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post #40 of 242 Old 07-02-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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@Dominic Chan


Struggling a little with calibrating HDR can you point me in the right direction?

I found ViperLogic's workflow over on the HDR thread & have been following it but I struggling to get my EOTF curve to match the target even with maxing out the gamma controls except points one & nine.

Before adjusting gamma & contrast


After adjusting gamma & contrast


I have then maxed out the contrast control but I still cant match the EOTF curve.

I am using the Digital Cinema mode with power consumption on medium for this run.

I have followed his guide as closely as possible the only things I am unsure are about are as follows:

1. When using the two point grayscale controls I need to have the gamma formula “ST 2084 HDR” selected & then change to “ITU BT2390 EETF” when using the gamma controls like this?


2. In CalMAN there is no option to set “Diffuse White” but it is probably called a different name?

Would this be the “use measured white level” option?


“Set "Diffuse White[nits]" to what you personally would like, one school of thought is set it to what you use for 100% for SDR movies eg somewhere between 20 or 40 nits.”

3. Again there is no “Target MaxL” option in CalMAN, I am unsure if this is called “use measured white level” also or is something else?

“Set “Target MaxL” to your 100% measure from the grayscale run.”

4. Last but not least which Colorspace should I be using? BT.2020 HDR or D65 P3?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-02-2019 at 07:29 AM.
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post #41 of 242 Old 07-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Struggling a little with calibrating HDR can you point me in the right direction?
I don't use CalMAN, so take the following replies with a grain of salt.

Quote:
I found ViperLogic's workflow over on the HDR thread & have been following it but I struggling to get my EOTF curve to match the target even with maxing out the gamma controls except points one & nine.

I have then maxed out the contrast control but I still cant match the EOTF curve.
The HDR ST.2084 PQ curve is supposed to be "absolute" (unlike SDR gamma which is relative). However, most people find it is far too bright for projectors in a dark room, and scale the curve down in luminance.

Quote:
I am using the Digital Cinema mode with power consumption on medium for this run.

I have followed his guide as closely as possible the only things I am unsure are about are as follows:

1. When using the two point grayscale controls I need to have the gamma formula “ST 2084 HDR” selected & then change to “ITU BT2390 EETF” when using the gamma controls like this?
BT.2390 is for tone mapping of the highlights (and also the shadow details, but that's the topic for a separate discussion). If you don't use it, all the highlights beyond the projector's peak luminance will be clipped.


Quote:
2. In CalMAN there is no option to set “Diffuse White” but it is probably called a different name?
It's simply called "White Level".

Quote:
Would this be the “use measured white level” option?
"Use measured white level" would apply a multiplier to scale the target curve such that the measured white level becomes the target white level.You would normally only do that if the display already has an HDR curve that you're trying to fine-tune to match ST.2084.

Quote:
“Set "Diffuse White[nits]" to what you personally would like, one school of thought is set it to what you use for 100% for SDR movies eg somewhere between 20 or 40 nits.”
If you're using a custom gamma curve the "measured white level" has no significance and you should set the White Level to a suitable level based on your preference and the peak luminance you're getting. 20-25 is a good starting point; a higher value will make the overall picture brighter, but less “HDR-like”.

Quote:
3. Again there is no “Target MaxL” option in CalMAN, I am unsure if this is called “use measured white level” also or is something else?
You can't really set Target MaxL; it's whatever peak luminance you're getting.

Quote:
4. Last but not least which Colorspace should I be using? BT.2020 HDR or D65 P3?
HDR10 uses BT.2020 colorspace. However, most consumer displays can only reach P3 gamut, so you would aim for P3 during calibration. I'm not sure if that's built into the CalMAN workflow.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-02-2019 at 05:00 PM.
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post #42 of 242 Old 07-02-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
As promised here are my settings for my SDR calibration.


Color Mode: Natural

Brightness: 51

Contrast: 49

Color Saturation: 50

Tint: 50

Power Consumption: ECO


Auto Iris: Normal

Color Temp: 6000K

Skin Tone: 4

Colour Temp: Customized

Offset R: 48 Offset G: 49 Offset B: 49

Gain R: 50 Gain G: 47 Gain B: 48

Sharpness:

Standard: 5 Thin Line Enhancement: 5 Thick Line Enhancement: 5

Image Enhancement: Preset 3

Gamma: Customized

Color Tone 1: 0

Color Tone 2: -6

Color Tone 3: -12

Color Tone 4: -14

Color Tone 5: -16

Color Tone 6: -16

Color Tone 7: -17

Color Tone 8: -22

Color Tone 9: 0

RGBCMY

Red

Hue: 53 Saturation: 42 Brightness: 52

Green

Hue: 71 Saturation: 50 Brightness: 48

Blue

Hue: 57 Saturation: 42 Brightness: 45

Cyan

Hue: 48 Saturation: 63 Brightness: 38

Magenta:

Hue: 57 Saturation: 47 Brightness: 42

Yellow

Hue: 49 Saturation: 37 Brightness: 59

Epson Super White: On

Lens iris: -20

Color Space: Auto

Dynamic Range: Auto

Image processing: Fine

Also here is my rough understanding of how the gamma controls map to grayscale points.

Color Tone 1: N/A

Color Tone 2: 0%, 10% & 20%

Color Tone 3: 20% & 30%

Color Tone 4: 30% & 40%

Color Tone 5: 40%

Color Tone 6: 50% to 70%

Color Tone 7: 60% to 80%

Color Tone 8: 90%

Color Tone 9: N/A
Thanks for posting your sdr settings, your methodology looks solid. It’s a huge help to those of us without calibration equipment equipment! May I ask what screen you used when doing this calibration?
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post #43 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 03:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by donetodeath View Post
Thanks for posting your sdr settings, your methodology looks solid. It’s a huge help to those of us without calibration equipment equipment! May I ask what screen you used when doing this calibration?

The screen material is TecVision® XT1000X White from Draper & has a gain of 1.0
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post #44 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 03:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don't use CalMAN, so take the following replies with a grain of salt.

The HDR ST.2084 PQ curve is supposed to be "absolute" (unlike SDR gamma which is relative). However, most people find it is far too bright for projectors in a dark room, and scale the curve down in luminance.

BT.2390 is for tone mapping of the highlights (and also the shadow details, but that's the topic for a separate discussion). If you don't use it, all the highlights beyond the projector's peak luminance will be clipped.

It's simply called "White Level".

"Use measured white level" would apply a multiplier to scale the target curve such that the measured white level becomes the target white level.You would normally only do that if the display already has an HDR curve that you're trying to fine-tune to match ST.2084.

If you're using a custom gamma curve the "measured white level" has no significance and you should set the White Level to a suitable level based on your preference and the peak luminance you're getting. 20-25 is a good starting point; a higher value will make the overall picture brighter, but less “HDR-like”.

You can't really set Target MaxL; it's whatever peak luminance you're getting.

HDR10 uses BT.2020 colorspace. However, most consumer displays can only reach P3 gamut, so you would aim for P3 during calibration. I'm not sure if that's built into the CalMAN workflow.
Big thanks Dominic, so I need to be targeting a white level of around 20 to 25 nits & not using the "measured white level" option.

I presume this nit level is so low because of the filter being in place? Without the filter I can get around 140 nits, would I set the white level at 140 nits for picture modes without the filter active?


I will have another try calibrating the Digital Cinema piture mode which has the filter active but from my first run it was very dark & will probably be leaning towards using Bright Cinema or Natural for the brightness as I dont want to use high power consumption due to fan noise.

I did complete a calibration run with the Bright Cinema mode & the results look very good with content but I was not able to get the errors all under a Delta E of two with the CMS controls which is what ViperLogic's guide suggests, I understand in this mode the 100% saturation points are never going to be on target due to the filter not being present but I had hoped for a little less error upto the 50% saturation points.

Grayscale from Bright Cinema Run


Saturation Sweeps from Bright Cinema run

Is this amount of error normal for the saturation sweeps in the Bright Cinema picture mode? I had colorspace set to D65/P3.

With my Digital Cinema run I again struggled with the CMS, the saturation points were way off & I guess becuace luminance is factored into the error this is why I cant hit the targets?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-03-2019 at 03:31 AM.
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post #45 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I presume this nit level is so low because of the filter being in place? Without the filter I can get around 140 nits, would I set the white level at 140 nits for picture modes without the filter active?
This would be the peak luminance (at 100% input). You cannot use it for the reference white level (~50% input) as all highlights will be clipped.

Why don’t you measure Epson’s HDR curves to get an idea what is achievable in terms of white level?
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-03-2019 at 05:13 AM.
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post #46 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
This would be the peak luminance (at 100% input). You cannot use it for the reference white level (~50% input) as all highlights will be clipped.

Why don’t you measure Epson’s HDR curves to get an idea what is achievable in terms of white level?

So do grayscale sweeps with default settings on the picture modes I plan to use? Also with HDR & BT.2020 modes active on the projector?


Like this?


Bright Cinema

Digital Cinema

Cinema

Natural

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-03-2019 at 06:47 AM.
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As promised here are my settings for my SDR calibration.

Thank you. Look forward to trying these.
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post #48 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 06:44 AM
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So do grayscale sweeps with default settings on the picture modes I plan to use? Also with HDR & BT.2020 modes active on the projector?
Yes
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post #49 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes

I edited my post above with the measurements using ST 2084.
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post #50 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 06:59 AM
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I edited my post above with the measurements using ST 2084.
Looks like Natural and Bright Cinema are the only two with bright enough white levels. What do you think when watching actual contents?
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post #51 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like Natural and Bright Cinema are the only two with bright enough white levels. What do you think when watching actual contents?

When I back to back tested Bright Cinema against Digital Cinema I have to agree that Digital Cinema was to dim.



Not tried them with the picture modes at their default settings.
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post #52 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 07:22 AM
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When I back to back tested Bright Cinema against Digital Cinema I have to agree that Digital Cinema was to dim.
That’s to be expected. My question was what you think of the Bright Cinema mode.
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post #53 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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That’s to be expected. My question was what you think of the Bright Cinema mode.

I like Bright Cinema its give you that HDR effect which is nice.


Just checked between Natural & Bright Cinema and a prefer Bright Cinema, I guess because its brighter.
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post #54 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 07:30 AM
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I like Bright Cinema its give you that HDR effect which is nice.


Just checked between Natural & Bright Cinema and a prefer Bright Cinema, I guess because its brighter.
The white level is almost 40 nits
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post #55 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The white level is almost 40 nits

Where do I see that info?

I can see 100% white is 136 nits or 39 fL but where does it tell you the white level or am I being stupid?


Is that the 50% white reading?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-03-2019 at 08:04 AM.
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post #56 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 08:09 AM
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Where do I see that info?

I can see 100% white is 136 nits or 39 fL but where does it tell you the white level or am I being stupid?


Is that the 50% white reading?
Yes, as I mentioned in post 45 above.

EDIT:”Yes” to your second question, not the first
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post #57 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, as I mentioned in post 45 above.

EDIT:”Yes” to your second question, not the first
I see what you did there

So I need to set the "White Level" in CalMAN to 39 nits with the gamma formula BT 2390 before starting to adjust the gamma controls?

For the two point controls I just use the gamma formula ST 2084.

I guess this is where I have been going wrong as I have been using the peak luminance as my white level in my previous run.

One other thing, when using the CMS controls is the Brightness control still used to bring the Y value into line?

I found that when trying to calibrate the CMS for the Cinema picture mode all the points were deficient in luminance & I ended up maxing out the Brightness control & still did not hit the Y target, I guess this is because of the lack of nits produced in this picture mode?

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post #58 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 08:39 AM
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I see what you did there

So I need to set the "White Level" in CalMAN to 39 nits with the gamma formula BT 2390 before starting to adjust the gamma controls?
It doesn’t have to be 39 nits. That’s just a point of reference in terms of how bright the image will be.
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It doesn’t have to be 39 nits. That’s just a point of reference in terms of how bright the image will be.

I see, well my SDR calibration has 100% white at 56.5 nits so I suppose I could use that.
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post #60 of 242 Old 07-03-2019, 09:25 AM
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I see, well my SDR calibration has 100% white at 56.5 nits so I suppose I could use that.
Most people would aim for lower, to allow for the HDR highlights.
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