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post #121 of 180 Old 07-09-2019, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What changed? In post 99 you said “everything looked really dim” with a multiplier of 4.

I probably had my expectations set too high when I did my first HDR runs with no multiplier.



This gives an incredibly bright image and when you start looking at other settings they look really dim in comparison. I mean you are always going to prefer a brighter image.


I tried doing an SDR BT.2020 calibration with the filter active but the amount of nits you lose is just to much. I ended up with 13 fL peak brightness which is dimmer than SDR so I wont be going down that road.
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post #122 of 180 Old 07-09-2019, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Speaking of SDR was my research right that you should aim for 16 fL of peak luminance?

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post #123 of 180 Old 07-10-2019, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I probably had my expectations set too high when I did my first HDR runs with no multiplier.

This gives an incredibly bright image and when you start looking at other settings they look really dim in comparison. I mean you are always going to prefer a brighter image.
That's not what calibration is about, otherwise you wouldn’t be calibrating SDR to 50 nits when the projector is capable of outputting 130 nits.

Quote:
I tried doing an SDR BT.2020 calibration with the filter active but the amount of nits you lose is just to much. I ended up with 13 fL peak brightness which is dimmer than SDR so I wont be going down that road.
If you want to use the UB820’s SDR2020 mode, use the same settings on the projector as HDR (picture mode, lamp power, iris); only change the gamma to 2.4.

In spite of the name, SDR2020 is actually HDR, but with the UB820 performing the tone mapping and EOTF conversion. You get the same peak luminance of ~130 nits.
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post #124 of 180 Old 07-10-2019, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That's not what calibration is about, otherwise you wouldn’t be calibrating SDR to 50 nits when the projector is capable of outputting 130 nits.
I think I maybe did not explain myself clearly, I previously thought my first runs were correct & were accurate so when I was back to backing I though I was comparing two accurate calibrations just at different brightness levels. I now know this was not the case.

So I am on the right track calibrating SDR to 16fL?

I was going to try 20 fL as an experiment to see what it looks like. I am just concerned about eye strain in the long term.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you want to use the UB820’s SDR2020 mode, use the same settings on the projector as HDR (picture mode, lamp power, iris); only change the gamma to 2.4.

In spite of the name, SDR2020 is actually HDR, but with the UB820 performing the tone mapping and EOTF conversion. You get the same peak luminance of ~130 nits.
That is very useful info, thanks for that. I was doing it totally wrong then, whats new

So do I need to use a workflow that uses gamma instead of the EOTF curve? I presume if so I dont need to use a multiplier?
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post #125 of 180 Old 07-10-2019, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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So here is my final run for HDR on the Bright Cinema Picture mode.





I did a run using the Natural picture mode but I think Bright Cinema is better.


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post #126 of 180 Old 07-10-2019, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you want to use the UB820’s SDR2020 mode, use the same settings on the projector as HDR (picture mode, lamp power, iris); only change the gamma to 2.4.

In spite of the name, SDR2020 is actually HDR, but with the UB820 performing the tone mapping and EOTF conversion. You get the same peak luminance of ~130 nits.
When you say keep all the settings on the projector the same like for HDR does that include the Dynamic Range setting?

This would be set to HDR Mode 1 but should this be set to SDR instead?

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post #127 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
When you say keep all the settings on the projector the same like for HDR does that include the Dynamic Range setting?

This would be set to HDR Mode 1 but should this be set to SDR instead?
I don’t remember what options are available there. Isn’t there an Auto setting? The UB820 will not send the HDR flag when outputting SDR.2020.

The objective is to keep the gamma at 2.2 or 2.4, instead of ST.2084.
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post #128 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don’t remember what options are available there. Isn’t there an Auto setting? The UB820 will not send the HDR flag when outputting SDR.2020.

The objective is to keep the gamma at 2.2 or 2.4, instead of ST.2084.
Yes there is an auto option, I guess if I use this & the UB820 does not send the HDR flag then the projector with just revert to the SDR setting.

So I am going to use Bright Cinema like for my HDR calibration & target D65/P3 but instead of using ST.2084 I will use gamma power set to 2.4.

What about brightnes & contrast, do I need to check these with an SDR test pattern before starting?
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post #129 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Yes there is an auto option, I guess if I use this & the UB820 does not send the HDR flag then the projector with just revert to the SDR setting.

So I am going to use Bright Cinema like for my HDR calibration & target D65/P3 but instead of using ST.2084 I will use gamma power set to 2.4.

What about brightnes & contrast, do I need to check these with an SDR test pattern before starting?
Brightness is adjusted the same way as any SDR. There’s not much point checking Contrast as it is supposed to be clipping.
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post #130 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Brightness is adjusted the same way as any SDR. There’s not much point checking Contrast as it is supposed to be clipping.

I will give this a go later, I did try yesterday but when lining up the gamma it really does reduce the light output. When I stopped I think it was at around 80 nits.
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post #131 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I will give this a go later, I did try yesterday but when lining up the gamma it really does reduce the light output. When I stopped I think it was at around 80 nits.
That doesn’t make sense. Gamma controls do not affect the peak luminance.
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post #132 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That doesn’t make sense. Gamma controls do not affect the peak luminance.

Well I had a go at SDR BT.2020 here is the grayscale after two point adjustment, around 122 nits.



After maxing out the gamma controls I still had a massive dip in the gamma curve at the top end so I ended up dropping the contrast to 22 to get the gamma in line.

As you can see peak luminance has now dropped to 102 nits.


Went ahead & carried on with the CMS.



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post #133 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 08:32 PM
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After maxing out the gamma controls I still had a massive dip in the gamma curve at the top end so I ended up dropping the contrast to 22 to get the gamma in line.
As you can see peak luminance has now dropped to 102 nits.
So strictly speaking it’s the Contrast adjustment that reduced the luminance, not the gamma controls themselves.
Gamma curve at the top end can be very misleading. A small (insignificant) luminance error can be shown as a large gamma error. I would just do the best with the gamma controls and not reduce the contrast, especially given the fact that even 4000 nit HDR curves are flat (clipped) over 90% input.
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post #134 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
So strictly speaking it’s the Contrast adjustment that reduced the luminance, not the gamma controls themselves.
Gamma curve at the top end can be very misleading. A small (insignificant) luminance error can be shown as a large gamma error. I would just do the best with the gamma controls and not reduce the contrast, especially given the fact that even 4000 nit HDR curves are flat (clipped) over 90% input.

I wish I had taken a screen grab with me just using the gamma controls but from 60 to 100% the measured curve was not even visible, it was off the screen! Hence why I used the contrast control.


Very similar to how it looks on the screen grab I posted above before I adjusted any of the gamma controls.
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post #135 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I wish I had taken a screen grab with me just using the gamma controls but from 60 to 100% the measured curve was not even visible, it was off the screen! Hence why I used the contrast control.


Very similar to how it looks on the screen grab I posted above before I adjusted any of the gamma controls.
102 nits peak is still not bad for SDR2020.
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post #136 of 180 Old 07-11-2019, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
102 nits peak is still not bad for SDR2020.
I need to watch some more content but it does not appear any brighter than the HDR calibration but I guess that is the point of calibration.
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post #137 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I need to watch some more content but it does not appear any brighter than the HDR calibration but I guess that is the point of calibration.
Not really. This was purely by chance. In the SDR2020 mode you calibrate the gamma to 2.4 but the UB820 has no knowledge of your peak luminance or diffuse white level. You need to use its Dynamic Range Adjustment to set that.

BTW, in the UB820 settings, did you set the Display Type to Projector and turn on the HDR Optimizer?

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post #138 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Not really. This was purely by chance. In the SDR2020 mode you calibrate the gamma to 2.4 but the UB820 has no knowledge of your peak luminance or diffuse white level. You need to use its Dynamic Range Adjustment to set that.

BTW, in the UB820 settings, did you set the Display Type to Projector and turn on the HDR Optimizer?
But does the UB820 not have some idea of the peak luminance of the display because of what setting you select under "HDR Display Type"

From my understanding depending on what you select in this menu the UB820 will try to tone map the content to the following nit levels:

OLED - 1000 nits

Super High Luminance LCD - 1500 nits

Middle or High Luminance LCD - 1000 nits

Basic Luminance LCD - 500 nits


This is obviously with HDR Optimizer switched on which I have had switched on & have been using middle or high luminance LCD.

Are you saying that as soon as you set the UB820 to SDR BT.2020 the HDR optimizer is no longer active?

I mean obviously some tone mapping is occurring from the UB820 to convert HDR to SDR but I have no idea if the setting you select under the HDR Display Type menu still regulates at what point tone mapping occurs.
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post #139 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
But does the UB820 not have some idea of the peak luminance of the display because of what setting you select under "HDR Display Type"

Basic Luminance LCD - 500 nits
This is obviously with HDR Optimizer switched on which I have had switched on & have been using middle or high luminance LCD.
I’m not sure why you would use middle or high luminance LCD. Projectors are supposed to use the 500 nits setting.

Even with the correct Display Type setting, the UB820 still does not know your peak luminance - whether you’re getting 60 nits or 130 nits from your projector.

In CalMAN you used the multiplier to set the overall brightness. With the UB820 you need to do the equivalent.

Quote:
Are you saying that as soon as you set the UB820 to SDR BT.2020 the HDR optimizer is no longer active?
No, I’m not sure why you said that. The HDR Optimizer does work in SDR2020 mode, but IIRC the Display Type setting is ignored.
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post #140 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I’m not sure why you would use middle or high luminance LCD. Projectors are supposed to use the 500 nits setting.

Even with the correct Display Type setting, the UB820 still does not know your peak luminance - whether you’re getting 60 nits or 130 nits from your projector.

In CalMAN you used the multiplier to set the overall brightness. With the UB820 you need to do the equivalent.
But when we set the max mastering luminance to 1000 nits in CalMAN does to not tone map everything to 1000 nits?

I thought that the calibration includes the tone mapping up to 1000 nits so I only need the UB820 to tone map down to 1000 nits?

For example when I play a title that was mastered at 4000 nits the UB820 will tone map down to 1000 nits & then my calibration will tone map the rest of the way down to 130 nits for example?

I have probably completely misunderstood how this works.

I just hope this does not invalidate all my calibrations up to this point.

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post #141 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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So I need to be using the "Basic Luminance LCD" setting so the optimizer is active down to 500 nits.


What do I need to set the "Dynamic Range Adjustment" slider too?
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post #142 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Well I had a go at SDR BT.2020 here is the grayscale after two point adjustment, around 122 nits.



After maxing out the gamma controls I still had a massive dip in the gamma curve at the top end so I ended up dropping the contrast to 22 to get the gamma in line.

As you can see peak luminance has now dropped to 102 nits.


Went ahead & carried on with the CMS.





It looks like you have CalMAN set to P3 gamut instead of BT.2020

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post #143 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks like you have CalMAN set to P3 gamut instead of BT.2020
I do indeed, is this an issue?


I do hope not as this will probably invalidate all my work up to this point in regard to HDR

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I do indeed, is this an issue?


I do hope not as this will probably invalidate all my work up to this point in regard to HDR
I hope you at least use BT.2020 as ColorSpace for the calibration.
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post #145 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 07:05 PM
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So I need to be using the "Basic Luminance LCD" setting so the optimizer is active down to 500 nits.
Actually what you did was not “wrong”, but you may get better results with UB820 set to 500 nits. Personally I even calibrate the projector to 500 nits (with multiplier), which requires very little tone mapping in the projector.

Quote:
What do I need to set the "Dynamic Range Adjustment" slider too?
This performs a similar function as changing the multiplier, and depends on how bright you want the overall picture.

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post #146 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope you at least use BT.2020 as ColorSpace for the calibration.

I guess that means then that using D65 / P3 is not correct & I should have been using BT.2020?


I did mention this several times that this is what I was doing & seeing as nobody said anything I thought it was not an issue.


Looks like I will have to start all over again?
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post #147 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 07:12 PM
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I guess that means then that using D65 / P3 is not correct & I should have been using BT.2020?


I did mention this several times that this is what I was doing & seeing as nobody said anything I thought it was not an issue.


Looks like I will have to start all over again?
If you read the HCFR thread, people use BT2020/P3 (P3 gamut in BT2020 container); i.e., use the BT2020 color space but the P3 targets as that’s essentially what the projector is capable, and the gamut limits of most UHD contents.
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post #148 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you read the HCFR thread, people use BT2020/P3 (P3 gamut in BT2020 container); i.e., use the BT2020 color space but the P3 targets as that’s essentially what the projector is capable, and the gamut limits of most UHD contents.
So what is the difference between using the P3 coordinates vs using the P3 coordinates inside of the BT.2020 container?

Would the coordinates not be the same for P3 if they are inside or outside the BT.2020 container?
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post #149 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 07:19 PM
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So what is the difference between using the P3 coordinates vs using the P3 coordinates inside of the BT.2020 container?

Would the coordinates not be the same for P3 if they are inside or outside the BT.2020 container?
From what I can see (your post 72 and post 117) you were using BT.2020 colorspace so you should be OK.

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post #150 of 180 Old 07-12-2019, 07:25 PM
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From what I can see you were using BT.2020 colorspace so you should be OK. This is from your post 72



This is P3 , If it was 2020 the primaries would be touching the edge of the CIE diagram.

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