Projector Calibration (6040UB) - Second Look - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 242 Old 07-16-2019, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I have updated the first post with my SDR & HDR settings, was thinking of posting my workflows for SDR & HDR too but I dont know if they will be any use to anyone but me

Did a few more runs with SDR BT.2020 on Natural & then Bright Cinema to see if there was much of a difference. Bright Cinema is six nits brighter but its not like you can tell the difference.

I tried SDR BT.2020 again with the light filter in line but it is just to dim on medium power consumption, this also causes large errors in luminance due to the lack of light output. I think you can only really use the light filter on High power consumption.


SDR BT.2020, Digital Cinema


Temped to use a multiplier that targets 1000 nits but like you said Dominic I think this will be far to dim.


I dont think changing the Mastering Max to 1000 nits does much but change the maximum luminance 1000. It will still clip at 500 nits if your multiplier is at 500 nits. I hope that makes sense.

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post #182 of 242 Old 07-16-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I dont think changing the Mastering Max to 1000 nits does much but change the maximum luminance 1000. It will still clip at 500 nits if your multiplier is at 500 nits. I hope that makes sense.
That’s not true, at least when you're using BT2390. The whole purpose of changing Mastering Max from 500 to 1000 nits, together with tone mapping, is to prevent hard clipping at 500 nits - see the dashed white line.
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post #183 of 242 Old 07-16-2019, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’s not true, at least when you're using ST2390. The whole purpose of changing Mastering Max to 1000 nits is to prevent hard clipping at 500 nits - see the dashed white line.
I have not been using ST 2390 for any of my runs, only BT 2390. I did one run with a Mastering Max of 500 & then one at 1000 & switching between the two I see very little difference. Even when changing the HDR display type on the UB820 to the 1000 nits setting.

I am not sure how CalMAN implements the Mastering Max & Min.
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post #184 of 242 Old 07-16-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I have not been using ST 2390 for any of my runs, only BT 2390.
I did mean BT2390 (typo corrected in previous post). It will not hard clip at 500 nits it you set it the Mastering Max at 1000 nits.

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post #185 of 242 Old 07-17-2019, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I did mean BT2390 (typo corrected in previous post). It will not hard clip at 500 nits it you set it the Mastering Max at 1000 nits.
No idea then, I will be honest I still struggle to understand how all this tone mapping works, I must be on the slow side

Having clocked over 300 hours on my bulb for calibration I think I will leave it there for now.

Watching a few movies & HDR looks fantastic, I have been switching the HDR optimizer on & at various points during movies & I can see how it reveals detail that would have been lost because it would have been clipped but I kind of like how it looks brighter with it turned off

Like in Oblivion I can see more detail in a lightning bolt but would I notice it when just watching the movie?
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post #186 of 242 Old 07-22-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post

EDIT: Here are my settings for SDR, I ended up going for a peak luminance of 20fL instead of 16fL as I prefer the brighter image and this also builds a buffer for bulb wear & the inevitable decrease in luminance.


Adam, thanks for your work on this. I read through your entire thread and kudos to you for persisting on. While I have the Xrite 1 and can download the software, I just do not have the time to put towards calibration - so thanks!


I have tried various settings posted in the official thread but none seem to work for me. Either they are too dark or too saturated. In the end I ended up going with a few minor tweaks and gama at preset -2 in bright cinema and that seemed to have the best balance for me thus far however I am sure its far from ideal. I am going to give your settings a try this coming wknd. While I understand that every unit requires its own calibration, due to lack of time I am hoping that your settings get me in the ballpark.

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post #187 of 242 Old 07-23-2019, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Adam, thanks for your work on this. I read through your entire thread and kudos to you for persisting on. While I have the Xrite 1 and can download the software, I just do not have the time to put towards calibration - so thanks!

I have tried various settings posted in the official thread but none seem to work for me. Either they are too dark or too saturated. In the end I ended up going with a few minor tweaks and gama at preset -2 in bright cinema and that seemed to have the best balance for me thus far however I am sure its far from ideal. I am going to give your settings a try this coming wknd. While I understand that every unit requires its own calibration, due to lack of time I am hoping that your settings get me in the ballpark.
No problem I hope my settings help you, as you know the enviroment, screen & tolerances between each projector play a role in how accurate my settings will be for you. Not going to hurt to give them a try though.

On a side note, would it be possible for you to delete my quoted first post from your post as it takes up a lot of space.

Thanks
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post #188 of 242 Old 07-24-2019, 11:16 PM
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Can these settings be applied to the 5040UB as well?
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post #189 of 242 Old 07-25-2019, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nightwing-DG View Post
Can these settings be applied to the 5040UB as well?

You can try but they are not going to be accurate if that matters to you.

Copying anyone's settings if they are for the same model of display or not are not going to give you accurate results but its not going to damage anything so your more than welcome to give them a go.

They may get you in the ball park if you have similar environmental conditions & screen material.

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post #190 of 242 Old 07-25-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightwing-DG View Post
Can these settings be applied to the 5040UB as well?
The 5040UB and the 6040UB ate essentially the same projector.
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post #191 of 242 Old 07-25-2019, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The 5040UB and the 6940UB ate essentially the same projector.

Thanks for the clarification Dominic, over in Europe we have different model numbers for exactly the same projectors (EH-TW9300 & EH-TW7300) so I was unsure of they were the same.


I believe the black level on the 6040UB is a little better than the 5040UB
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post #192 of 242 Old 07-25-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Thanks for the clarification Dominic, over in Europe we have different model numbers for exactly the same projectors (EH-TW9300 & EH-TW7300) so I was unsure of they were the same.
The specs are identical - 2,500 lumens, contrast ratio “up tp 1,000,000”.
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post #193 of 242 Old 07-25-2019, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The specs are identical - 2,500 lumens, contrast ratio “up tp 1,000,000”.

Great review here comparing both of them.
http://projectiondream.com/en/epson-...s10000-battle/

Here is the comparison of the black level.
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post #194 of 242 Old 07-25-2019, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Great review here comparing both of them.
http://projectiondream.com/en/epson-...s10000-battle/

Here is the comparison of the black level.
Nightwing-DG was asking about the 5040UB, which I said is the same as the 6040UB; both have a rated CR of 1,000,000.

Not sure why you’re bringing up the EH-TW7300, which has 1/6 the CR of those two, at 160,000.

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post #195 of 242 Old 07-25-2019, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Nightwing-DG was asking about the 5040UB, which I said is the same as the 6040UB; both have a rated CR of 1,000,000.

Not sure why you’re bringing up the EH-TW7300, which has 1/6 the CR of those two, at 160,000.

Sorry got mixed up, I'm used to the EU model numbers.
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post #196 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 09:49 AM
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@AdamAttewell

Thanks for posting.

What settings on the UB820 are you using with your calibrations posted on the first page?

How are you liking your SDR set-up?

Also, what is the difference in the HDR settings you posted? Which do you use and when? Any preference?
*** HDR 500 nits (Medium)
*** HDR 1000 nits (Medium)
*** HDR 500 nits (High)

Last question. I thought only the cinema modes added the filter so these projectors could get the full, expanded color space (BT.2020) I know that filter eats some lumens, but I thought it was supposed to be better to get the full color with a 4K source. Thoughts?

Thanks again!

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post #197 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 10:11 AM
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I thought only the cinema modes added the filter so these projectors could get the full, expanded color space (BT.2020).
Cinema and Digital Cinema modes use the filter, Bright Cinema does not.
The filter provides DCI-P3 gamut, not BT.2020. However, for calibration one has to use BT.2020 colour space.
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post #198 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Cinema and Digital Cinema modes use the filter, Bright Cinema does not.
The filter provides DCI-P3 gamut, not BT.2020. However, for calibration one has to use BT.2020 colour space.
... same question with P3?
:-)

I'm wondering why he did not use the two modes that get closer to P3 vs Natural for all of his settings.

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post #199 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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... same question with P3?
:-)

I'm wondering why he did not use the two modes that get closer to P3 vs Natural for all of his settings.
I have done a calibration with the Digital Cinema Color Mode & the light filter lowers image brightness to much when in medium power consumption mode.

So much so that you cant get accurate color reproduction due to lack luminance at the primary & 80% saturation points.

Even when using high power consumption luminance is still too low after grayscale calibration to hit the primaries of P3 in the BT.2020 container.

Add to this how dim the image is you get little to no HDR effect so I choose to use Natural as it gives the brightest image after calibration & is the most accurate mode from defaults.

The HDR effect to me is far more noticeable than the increased color gamut in my opinion.

Give it a go yourself with the defaults on Cinema or Digital Cinema, you will soon see how dim the image is in comparison.

I do have settings for Digital Cinema but I never use them.

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Also, what is the difference in the HDR settings you posted? Which do you use and when? Any preference?
*** HDR 500 nits (Medium)
*** HDR 1000 nits (Medium)
*** HDR 500 nits (High)
The nit levels refer to when hard clipping will occur, this gets complicated as these projectors can get nowhere near 1000 or 500 nits so a multiplier is used when calibrating.

The easy explanation is that the 1000 nit settings will appear darker as they will allow the brighter parts of the signal to be shown on screen at the cost of lowering the overall picture brightness.

HDR is a compromise on these projectors you pick your poison as to which you prefer.

This is where the UB820 comes in & does a fantastic job at tone mapping 4000 & 1000 nit titles down to 500 nits without dimming the image to much & you get to see the brighter parts of the image without them being blown out/clipped.

You need to use the "HDR TV Type" "Basic Luminance LCD & Projector" so the UB820 tone maps to 500 nits.

The Panasonic UB9000 as a setting that tone maps to 350 nits but that is well out of my price range.

I think I have got this all right, Dominic if not please let me know.

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post #200 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
You need to use the "HDR TV Type" "Basic Luminance LCD & Projector" so the UB820 tone maps to 500 nits.
If you’re using a 1000-nit curve I would also set the UB820 to output 1000 nits. Otherwise the range between 500 nits and 1000 nits will be wasted.
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post #201 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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If you’re using a 1000-nit curve I would also set the UB820 to output 1000 nits. Otherwise the range between 500 nits and 1000 nits will be wasted.

Yes very good point forgot to mention that in my post, from the testing I have done between the 500 nit & 1000 nit curves the 1000 nit curve looks too dark to be enjoyable for me so being able to let the UB820 tone map down to 500 nits is great as I get a bright image & that "HDR effect"
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post #202 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 07:29 PM
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Adam, Thank you soo much for diligently revisiting the calibration for the 6040ub. I just set up my first 5040ub about a month ago (had a Sony HW55 for several years) and I just got into UHD a week ago when I purchased the ub820 and a Marantz sr6013. between the Official ub820/824 thread, the Official 5040ub/6040ub thread and this thread my eyes are watering and I've tried what seems like a thousand diff. settings for SDR and HDR. Despite the constant theme over on the ub820 thread about setting the HDR/Color Gamut Output to SDR/BT.2020 for projectors (I think it's still the theme - I'm only on page 50 but I also skipped to the end as well), I'm using your HDR 500 nits (Med - mainly to preserve my lamp ) setting with the HDR/Color Gamut Output to HDR/BT.2020 (mainly with discs) and so far this looks the best. I have a bat cave and I'm using a Silver Ticket 120 1.1 gain screen. I certainly have more testing to do but thank you again for your hard work - as a UHD/HDR newbie I appreciate it.


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post #203 of 242 Old 07-27-2019, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Adam, Thank you soo much for diligently revisiting the calibration for the 6040ub. I just set up my first 5040ub about a month ago (had a Sony HW55 for several years) and I just got into UHD a week ago when I purchased the ub820 and a Marantz sr6013. between the Official ub820/824 thread, the Official 5040ub/6040ub thread and this thread my eyes are watering and I've tried what seems like a thousand diff. settings for SDR and HDR. Despite the constant theme over on the ub820 thread about setting the HDR/Color Gamut Output to SDR/BT.2020 for projectors (I think it's still the theme - I'm only on page 50 but I also skipped to the end as well), I'm using your HDR 500 nits (Med - mainly to preserve my lamp ) setting with the HDR/Color Gamut Output to HDR/BT.2020 (mainly with discs) and so far this looks the best. I have a bat cave and I'm using a Silver Ticket 120 1.1 gain screen. I certainly have more testing to do but thank you again for your hard work - as a UHD/HDR newbie I appreciate it.


jidelite

I am glad I could help you with my settings, nice to hear they are looking good for others too. Funny thing is I had a HW55 before the 6040ub & it was a great projector.


Got to say a massive thank you to Dominic Chan & jt7272 for helping me through this process which I would have never completed & gotten the fantastic results I have without their help, patience & guidance.



It has been a learning curve for me but I do feel I have learnt so much about how display calibration works & have a much better understanding of how to approach calibration in the future.


Its great I can give a little back to the community.
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post #204 of 242 Old 07-28-2019, 07:28 AM
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@AdamAttewell

I played around with your settings last night... very happy with them. It is kind of funny how much they differ from the original settings the guys in the 5040 thread put together, which primarily focused on Bright Cinema settings. The thread loved them but for some reason the colors were off for me. They were also playing with the color-space setting in the projector, and unfortunately those settings don't seem to switch as part of a memory setting. That's okay because I am now using yours (and one other "natural" setting from the thread).

How much of that thread did you take into consideration?

As part of experimenting, I got sucked into Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 4K... wonderful disc to show things off and the settings are well done.

I think I will need to get used to your SDR settings. This that what you use for 1080p or TV content? It's a little too dim for me, but I might open up the iris and/or play with the lamp setting.

Thanks again,

Panny UB820, Denon X6300H in 6.1.4 mode, Epson 5040UB, SVS PCUltra paired with a MiniDSP HD and BEQ (of course!)
Working on making things blacker...
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post #205 of 242 Old 07-29-2019, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post
@AdamAttewell

I played around with your settings last night... very happy with them. It is kind of funny how much they differ from the original settings the guys in the 5040 thread put together, which primarily focused on Bright Cinema settings. The thread loved them but for some reason the colors were off for me. They were also playing with the color-space setting in the projector, and unfortunately those settings don't seem to switch as part of a memory setting. That's okay because I am now using yours (and one other "natural" setting from the thread).

How much of that thread did you take into consideration?

As part of experimenting, I got sucked into Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 4K... wonderful disc to show things off and the settings are well done.

I think I will need to get used to your SDR settings. This that what you use for 1080p or TV content? It's a little too dim for me, but I might open up the iris and/or play with the lamp setting.

Thanks again,
I to was using settings for HDR from that thread but I always wondered if I could do better myself so that's why I started this thread.

I followed the workflow ViperLogic created over in the dedicated thread for calibrating HDR on these projectors here on AVS but that needed adapting for CalMAN which Dominic help out with no end.

In regard to SDR its pretty standard to calibrate as it has been round so long that there is no guess work like there is what HDR.


16fL is what is recommended for digital front projection so going to 20fL should provide more than enough nits, this is of course going to be effected by the environmental conditions.


I posted the settings following a gamma of 2.4 using the BT.1886 gamma formulation I did do a run with a gamma of 2.2 which does brighten things up a little.

I dont know what is recommended for front projection, I do remember Joe Kane saying for larger screen sizes a gamma of 2.2 is preferred.

I used the AVS 709 test disc to set brightness & contrast.

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post #206 of 242 Old 07-29-2019, 12:38 PM
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The SDR setting does seem a bit dim to me as well, is that how it should look? I tried it for gaming but I don't know if that makes a difference.
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post #207 of 242 Old 07-29-2019, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
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I to was using settings for HDR from that thread but I always wondered if I could do better myself so that's why I started this thread...

I posted the settings following a gamma of 2.4 using the BT.1886 gamma formulation I did do a run with a gamma of 2.2 which does brighten things up a little.

I dont know what is recommended for front projection, I do remember Joe Kane saying for larger screen sizes a gamma of 2.2 is preferred.

I used the AVS 709 test disc to set brightness & contrast.

Adam, I would like to test GAMMA at 2.2 and 2.3 (say for 500nits (MED)). Are you saying to get a 2.2 GAMMA just use GAMMA at -2 on my 5040ub (don't use Custom GAMMA)?


If you have your 2.3 GAMMA settings laying around can you share (if not, not a big deal)?


thanks,
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post #208 of 242 Old 07-29-2019, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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The SDR setting does seem a bit dim to me as well, is that how it should look? I tried it for gaming but I don't know if that makes a difference.
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Originally Posted by jidelite View Post
Adam, I would like to test GAMMA at 2.2 and 2.3 (say for 500nits (MED)). Are you saying to get a 2.2 GAMMA just use GAMMA at -2 on my 5040ub (don't use Custom GAMMA)?


If you have your 2.3 GAMMA settings laying around can you share (if not, not a big deal)?

thanks,
jidelite
The settings I posted for SDR use the gamma formulation ITU.BT.1886 @Dominic Chan is this preferred for front projection?

I have updated the first post with my settings for SDR using a gamma of 2.2 at 20fL.

I did watch Chernobyl with these setting and I did find them a little dark but I was unsure if that was the source material or not.

Not had chance to watch anymore content yet as have been really busy.

Let me know if you guys find the 2.2 settings any better.
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post #209 of 242 Old 07-29-2019, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
The settings I posted for SDR use the gamma formulation ITU.BT.1886 @Dominic Chan is this preferred for front projection?
BT1886 is quite controversial. I use it (but reduce its “offset”), but some people like Steve Shaw (Light Illusion) think the concept is “flawed”.

Quote:
I have updated the first post with my settings for SDR using a gamma of 2.2 at 20fL.

I did watch Chernobyl with these setting and I did find them a little dark but I was unsure if that was the source material or not.
I use 50-60 nits peak for SDR but some prefer brighter.

Quote:
Let me know if you guys find the 2.2 settings any better.
2.4 provides better contrast but the shadows may be too dark. That’s the reason for using BT1886 which has a sliding gamma.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-29-2019 at 07:15 PM.
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post #210 of 242 Old 07-29-2019, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
BT1886 is quite controversial. I use it (but reduce its “offset”), but some people like Steve Shaw (Light Illusion) think the concept is “flawed”.

I use 50-60 nits peak for SDR but some prefer brighter.

2.4 provides better contrast but the shadows may be too dark. That’s the reason for using BT1886 which has a sliding gamma.
Interesting about the offset, never knew about that.

I did try 60 nits but it was just to dim for me.

What are you thoughts on 2.2 gamma? To much of a compromise?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-30-2019 at 04:44 PM.
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