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post #1 of 180 Old 06-26-2019, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Projector Calibration (6040UB) - Second Look

Hello all,


I calibrated my Epson 6040UB some time ago now & am looking to re-calibrate whilst also digging deeper into the HDR side of things but I first want to get my SDR calibration nail down first.

Before I go any further here is what I will be using:


CalMAN 2019

X-Rite i1 Pro

X-Rite i1 Display Pro

Lumagen Radiance 2021 (Pattern Generator)


Seeing as the CalMAN forums have been taken down my threads & info has been lost that I used the first time round & am also looking to confirm I am doing all the steps required in the right order.



I have already setup both meters just over a foot from the screen tilted up slightly so they are not measuring their own shadow, side by side and have created a profile before starting. I let the projector run for just over two hours before creating the profile.

From my first run I know the Natural picture mode is the best for SDR so I will be using this picture mode.

Then I started looking at the color temperature setting, default is 6500K but using CalMAN it seems the 6000K setting is closer to 6500K

Onto the gamma & the closest I can get to a gamma of 2.4 is using a gamma setting of -2 but I only get a gamma of around 2.3, not sure if this is an issue or not but other than using the custom gamma option I dont see how I can get this any closer.

I have been using the test patterns on the AVS 709 disk to set brightness & contrast, switching back & forth between both of them until both are set correctly.

Grayscale controls are limited just a basic two point adjustment, I have been calibrating these at 20% & 80% & can get both under 1 dE



From here if what I have done above is correct I start to get a little lost on how to go about things, would the CMS be the next step or should I be looking at gamma?
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post #2 of 180 Old 06-27-2019, 05:06 PM
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Those of us with 6040s appreciate your posts, especially this thread you've started.
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post #3 of 180 Old 06-27-2019, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inspector View Post
Those of us with 6040s appreciate your posts, especially this thread you've started.
You may also be interested in the existing thread on HDR calibration for the Epson 5040/6040:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post55190846
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post #4 of 180 Old 06-27-2019, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Appreciate you guys coming over from the Epson thread, picking up from where we left off I have reset the Natural picture mode to its default & have taken my baseline measurements.


First off here is the meter profile I created & applied before taking measurements.





Here is the Natural picture mode with default settings applied.

With Epson Super White turned off which is the default white is being clipped.










Seems that there is room for improvement with these measurements, looks like I will have to turn Epson Super White on to stop the white clipping.


I have a question, with default settings on ECO lamp mode I am getting around 26.5 fL which from my research this should be around 16 fL?


Using the lens iris I can get this down to 18.8fL, I presume I should be doing this before contrast & brightness?

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post #5 of 180 Old 06-27-2019, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You may also be interested in the existing thread on HDR calibration for the Epson 5040/6040:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post55190846

Thanks to you too Dominic!

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post #6 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 02:59 AM - Thread Starter
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OK so a little progress, after turning on Epson Super White the white clipping issue was resolved.



I went ahead with leaving the iris closed right down to get to 16fL.

I adjusted the colour temperature to the 6000K setting as this seems to be closer to 6500K that the 6500K setting.


6000K


6500K


7000K


After that I moved onto the two point controls for the grayscale.


Now with the 10 point grayscale Gamma is way off 2.4 which I guess accounts for the large amounts of error.


Now after using the gamma controls.


I can see what you guys were saying about the gamma controls, there is quite some overlap between the controls with controls 1 & 8 no serving any purpose at all but making small adjustments & remeasuring every time you soon build a picture of how the controls work & I was able to get a pretty good result in terms of gamma.

So that leaves the CMS, what do you guys think of these?



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post #7 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 04:05 AM
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After thinking about it, you seem to have very good light levels and using the super white function is not really a penalty even though for SDR and projectors I'm not sure its necessary.

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post #8 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
OK so a little progress, after turning on Epson Super White the white clipping issue was resolved.


I went ahead with leaving the iris closed right down to get to 16fL.

I adjusted the colour temperature to the 6000K setting as this seems to be closer to 6500K that the 6500K setting.


6000K


6500K


7000K


After that I moved onto the two point controls for the grayscale.


Now with the 10 point grayscale Gamma is way off 2.4 which I guess accounts for the large amounts of error.


Now after using the gamma controls.


I can see what you guys were saying about the gamma controls, there is quite some overlap between the controls with controls 1 & 8 no serving any purpose at all but making small adjustments & remeasuring every time you soon build a picture of how the controls work & I was able to get a pretty good result in terms of gamma.

So that leaves the CMS, what do you guys think of these?
Your gamma looks great after adjustment! Now you understand the pain of the manual gamma adjustment on these projectors...

Regarding your CMS you can probably get it dialed in almost perfect. Most of my dE levels are less than one on my saturations/luminance.

This is actually pretty easy to do. For each saturation level you adjust the "Hue" which moves the data point between two colors (imagine a line between them, the data point moves along it). The saturation moves the data point away from the center/white. Finally, the brightness affects the Y (luminance) value. Keep in mind that Y will also be affect by saturation and sometimes hue. So I do the following for each color in the CMS:

1. Go to the 80% saturation level and adjust hue and saturation until the point is as close to "in the box" as possible.
2. Then adjust brightness to get Y close to target.
3. If the data point has moved outside of the box go back to 1 and repeat until you get as close as possible x,y and Y.
4. Verify that the other saturation levels are good. Maybe make some adjustments to move the whole color a bit to compromise and get the best overall results.

It is important not to sacrifice accuracy on lower saturation levels in order to get 100% to match. Try to get 20-80% very accurate and hope that 100% is close.
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post #9 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt7272 View Post
It is important not to sacrifice accuracy on lower saturation levels in order to get 100% to match.
This is the exact issue with the posted results. The saturation levels were over-adjusted in an attempt to get 100% to match (it didn't help much), resulting in over-saturation of the 20-80% points. In particular, look at the green colour - the 80% and 100% saturation points almost blend into one:

Before:



After:

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post #10 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jt7272 View Post
Your gamma looks great after adjustment! Now you understand the pain of the manual gamma adjustment on these projectors...

Regarding your CMS you can probably get it dialed in almost perfect. Most of my dE levels are less than one on my saturations/luminance.

This is actually pretty easy to do. For each saturation level you adjust the "Hue" which moves the data point between two colors (imagine a line between them, the data point moves along it). The saturation moves the data point away from the center/white. Finally, the brightness affects the Y (luminance) value. Keep in mind that Y will also be affect by saturation and sometimes hue. So I do the following for each color in the CMS:

1. Go to the 80% saturation level and adjust hue and saturation until the point is as close to "in the box" as possible.
2. Then adjust brightness to get Y close to target.
3. If the data point has moved outside of the box go back to 1 and repeat until you get as close as possible x,y and Y.
4. Verify that the other saturation levels are good. Maybe make some adjustments to move the whole color a bit to compromise and get the best overall results.

It is important not to sacrifice accuracy on lower saturation levels in order to get 100% to match. Try to get 20-80% very accurate and hope that 100% is close.
Many thanks jt for explaining how to adjust the CMS, I never done this part before so your instructions are very much appreciated just like your instructions for gamma as I dont know where I would have started without them.

How do I go about moving the whole color if needed, what controls would I use to do this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
This is the exact issue with the posted results. The saturation levels were over-adjusted in an attempt to get 100% to match (it didn't help much), resulting in over-saturation of the 20-80% points. In particular, look at the green colour - the 80% and 100% saturation points almost blend into one:
I presume these errors have be caused by adjustments I have made because they were not present in the baseline measurements?

Is there anything I can do to prevent this or are these errors caused by faults in how the controls are implemented?
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post #11 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 05:54 PM
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All that you need to do is go back and calibrate your CMS as I described above. You can reset it and start from baseline or just work from your current settings.

The obvious issue is that some colors are oversaturated (points fall too far from center). For other colors the hue could be adjusted slightly.

There is nothing inherently wrong or limited in the CMS. Your calibration is just flawed in that saturation levels below 100 seem to be skewed. This happens when you adjust the CMS to dial in the 100% saturation only.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt7272 View Post
All that you need to do is go back and calibrate your CMS as I described above. You can reset it and start from baseline or just work from your current settings.

The obvious issue is that some colors are oversaturated (points fall too far from center). For other colors the hue could be adjusted slightly.

There is nothing inherently wrong or limited in the CMS. Your calibration is just flawed in that saturation levels below 100 seem to be skewed. This happens when you adjust the CMS to dial in the 100% saturation only.

I see, but I have not touched the CMS controls at all up to this point. Unless the CMS controls are related to the gamma or grayscale controls?
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post #13 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:11 PM
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I presume these errors have be caused by adjustments I have made because they were not present in the baseline measurements?

Is there anything I can do to prevent this or are these errors caused by faults in how the controls are implemented?
Most likely it’s caused by monitoring only 100% saturation when you did the CMS adjustments (although you seemed to be implying you didn’t adjust CMS). However, to be able to suggest how to prevent it, I need to know what changes you made, and what process you were following.
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post #14 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Most likely it’s caused by monitoring only 100% saturation when you did the CMS adjustments (although you seemed to be implying you didn’t adjust CMS). However, to be able to suggest how to prevent it, I need to know what changes you made, and what process you were following.

I have laid out above the steps I have done to get to this point.


I followed jt's instructions up to now.


1. Make a baseline measurement first.

2. Adjust your brightness and contrast using clipping patterns.

3. 2 point grayscale (rgb gain/offset) to dial in color temp (you can also use the color temp setting on the Epson to get it close before adjusting the RGB)

4. 11 or 21 point grayscale/gamma - what you're doing here is adjusting the gamma sliders to get Y to match target Y

5. Go back to 3 and repeat until your dE w/gamma is good

Make sure that the iris is off, and use windowed patterns (50% or less) rather than full screen.



I dont know if turning Epson Super White on could have caused this but I cant think of anything else I have done that could of caused this.
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post #15 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:30 PM
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It is normal for the CMS values to drift a little bit when calibrating grayscale. Also, this will happen if you make any adjustments using the "Color Temperature" setting.

Regardless, there's no harm done. Just go into your CMS and make adjustments as I described. None of your saturations are so far off that you cannot correct it. Just be aware that you may get very close on saturation levels 20%-80% and be off at 100%. This is OK.

In the end you cannot get it to be perfect. You just have to tinker until it is pretty good.

I calibrate the CMS first at 75% saturation and rarely do I have to make any adjustments after that. On the 5040/6040ub it seems to give the best results at all other saturations.
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post #16 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt7272 View Post
It is normal for the CMS values to drift a little bit when calibrating grayscale. Also, this will happen if you make any adjustments using the "Color Temperature" setting.

Regardless, there's no harm done. Just go into your CMS and make adjustments as I described. None of your saturations are so far off that you cannot correct it. Just be aware that you may get very close on saturation levels 20%-80% and be off at 100%. This is OK.

In the end you cannot get it to be perfect. You just have to tinker until it is pretty good.

I calibrate the CMS first at 75% saturation and rarely do I have to make any adjustments after that. On the 5040/6040ub it seems to give the best results at all other saturations.

I see, thank you for the conformation. Do you know what color temperature setting you are using?

The default is 6500K but from measurements 6000K setting was closer to 6500K prior to calibration. I have not measured the color temperature after making adjustments to the grayscale & gamma.

I presume these adjustments could have caused the color temperature to be adjusted & the 6500K setting was the correct one after all?
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post #17 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:37 PM
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You should be able to get your 80% (I use 75) very close. After that the other saturations will fall into place. You may only need a small amount of adjustments to make some compromises to fix the other levels.

See my 75% saturations from my last calibration. They are spot-on. You should have no trouble replicating this, as your environment is better than mine (I have a screen that is not neutral, and a light-colored cathedral ceiling).
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Quote:
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I see, thank you for the conformation. Do you know what color temperature setting you are using?

The default is 6500K but from measurements 6000K setting was closer to 6500K prior to calibration. I have not measured the color temperature after making adjustments to the grayscale & gamma.

I presume these adjustments could have caused the color temperature to be adjusted & the 6500K setting was the correct one after all?
You're fine using the 6000K. I actually have the same setting on mine. My screen runs a bit cool so it helps to get everything a bit closer using a single slider than to do it manually with each color.
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You're fine using the 6000K. I actually have the same setting on mine. My screen runs a bit cool so it helps to get everything a bit closer using a single slider than to do it manually with each color.
OK, I will probably end up having a look at what I get with the 6500K setting after adjusting the CMS.

Will always bug me wondering if the 6500K setting would achieve better results
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I dont know if turning Epson Super White on could have caused this but I cant think of anything else I have done that could of caused this.
I really doubt it. I would suggest you check your Color and Hue Controls, plus the CMS controls, to make sure they are all at deafaut (usually 0), prior to a new round of CMS adjustments.
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post #21 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:49 PM
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OK, I will probably end up having a look at what I get with the 6500K setting after adjusting the CMS.



Will always bug me wondering if the 6500K setting would achieve better results
Ha

I wouldn't worry about it. Trust your meter and you'll be fine. Your dE's are already pretty good. You should be able to get your saturation dE's below 1.0 at ~80% levels. At that point you'll be as good as you can get.

Then just sit back and enjoy it.
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OK, I will probably end up having a look at what I get with the 6500K setting after adjusting the CMS.

Will always bug me wondering if the 6500K setting would achieve better results
These are just “nominal” settings. You should start with the setting closest to D65 and find-tune it to get the lowest dE.

If you really want to investigate this, do it before you adjust CMS.
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post #23 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I really doubt it. I would suggest you check your Color and Hue Controls, plus the CMS controls, to make sure they are all at deafaut (usually 0), prior to a new round of CMS adjustments.

If these are the only CMS controls then they are all at their defaults.


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If these are the only CMS controls then they are all at their defaults.


Is there a “global” Color and Hue adjustment in addition to these? They may not be under CMS.
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post #25 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
These are just “nominal” settings. You should start with the setting closest to D65 and find-tune it to get the lowest dE.

If you really want to investigate this, do it before you adjust CMS.
I guess looking at the Correlated Color Temperature in CalMAN was a bad idea then?

I should have just done grayscale sweeps to see which was closest to D65 instead?

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post #26 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a “global” Color and Hue adjustment in addition to these? They may not be under CMS.

Yes there is a global color control along with tint & under color temp there is a skin tone option, all of these have been left at their default values.
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Just one quick question to both of you, if adjust the color temperature setting after performing grayscale & gamma adjustments I presume that with will affect the gamma & grayscale in a negative way?


Would be great if I could just adjust the color temperature right now before CMS adjustments but I get the feeling this is a bad idea.

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 06-28-2019 at 07:14 PM.
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post #27 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 07:15 PM
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Stop thinking so much. After your grayscale calibration the gamma and grayscale look great. The CMS is off a bit but it should be fixable by adjusting the CMS. Just calibrate the CMS and see how it looks. There's no need to complicate everything and start over.
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post #28 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt7272 View Post
Stop thinking so much. After your grayscale calibration the gamma and grayscale look great. The CMS is off a bit but it should be fixable by adjusting the CMS. Just calibrate the CMS and see how it looks. There's no need to complicate everything and start over.

Will do, off to have a go now & will post my results later.


Many thanks again.
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post #29 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I guess looking at the Correlated Color Temperature in CalMAN was a bad idea then?

I should have just done grayscale sweeps to see which was closest to D65 instead?
“Correlated 6500K” and D65 mean the same thing in this context. The latter is more precise.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 06-28-2019 at 08:45 PM.
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post #30 of 180 Old 06-28-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Just one quick question to both of you, if adjust the color temperature setting after performing grayscale & gamma adjustments I presume that with will affect the gamma & grayscale in a negative way?
Adjusting colour temperature will definitely affect greyscale, almost by definition.

Quote:
Would be great if I could just adjust the color temperature right now before CMS adjustments but I get the feeling this is a bad idea.
If you’re really curious about it, do it before adjusting CMS.
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