Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 495 Old 09-10-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Thanks. Wow, it's Chrome causing it! I'm using 76.0.3809.132 on a PC running Windows 7. No updates available.

Here's your bmp in your post, and next to it, the same bmp saved to disc and opened in Paint. Paint shows it perfectly correctly, with the same number of green and red squares (unfortunately it didn't come out brilliantly). Photo taken on my telephone.



Actually the same thing happens in the Windows Photo Viewer. I don't know how many other people this will affect, but it's very unfortunate when it comes to this kind of document. Would dithering it down help, or exaggerating the effect in the example image perhaps? Just thinking aloud.



Understood, thanks
There might be an ICC profile applied. I will look and if so, strip it out.
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post #452 of 495 Old 09-10-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Until there is a manual, I am happy to answer pattern questions.
Hi Stacey

My apologies if you have already answered this question in one of the earlier 22-odd pages, but is there a manual on how to use this disc? I still have one of your BluRay calibration discs but found it hard to use without having a manual that I could consult. As you can tell, I am a novice when it comes to calibrating displays, so any help I can get will be greatly appreciated! Thanks for your help.

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post #453 of 495 Old 09-10-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Hi Stacey

My apologies if you have already answered this question in one of the earlier 22-odd pages, but is there a manual on how to use this disc? I still have one of your BluRay calibration discs but found it hard to use without having a manual that I could consult. As you can tell, I am a novice when it comes to calibrating displays, so any help I can get will be greatly appreciated! Thanks for your help.

Cal68
http://spearsandmunsil.com/3rd-edition-articles/

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post #454 of 495 Old 09-10-2019, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Hi Stacey

My apologies if you have already answered this question in one of the earlier 22-odd pages, but is there a manual on how to use this disc? I still have one of your BluRay calibration discs but found it hard to use without having a manual that I could consult. As you can tell, I am a novice when it comes to calibrating displays, so any help I can get will be greatly appreciated! Thanks for your help.

Cal68
All of our docs are in the form of articles on our website as lujan posted. We do have a novice manual in development that will be available in a PDF and eventually eBook formats. That is going slower, but everything that will be in it is covered by the existing 3rd edition articles.

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post #455 of 495 Old 09-10-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Thanks. Wow, it's Chrome causing it! I'm using 76.0.3809.132 on a PC running Windows 7. No updates available.
Check your browsers with that link and adjust their settings: http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter
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post #456 of 495 Old 09-10-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
All of our docs are in the form of articles on our website as lujan posted. We do have a novice manual in development that will be available in a PDF and eventually eBook formats. That is going slower, but everything that will be in it is covered by the existing 3rd edition articles.
Many thanks to both of you. I'll check out the articles on the website and then see if I still need to wait for the novice manual to be available!

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post #457 of 495 Old 09-10-2019, 03:19 PM
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Check your browsers with that link and adjust their settings: http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter
supports everything, and there are no settings to adjust.

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post #458 of 495 Old 09-11-2019, 10:17 PM
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What pattern can I use to test SDR Gradient banding? I have been experience some on a game I am playing. I Think it’s the game itself but I want to be sure.
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post #459 of 495 Old 09-13-2019, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
What pattern can I use to test SDR Gradient banding? I have been experience some on a game I am playing. I Think it’s the game itself but I want to be sure.
SDR 709->Processing->Quantization Rotate is our banding pattern for SDR. Make sure the both your UHD BD player and game console (if not the same) are outputting the same color space and the picture settings are the same to compare the two.

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post #460 of 495 Old 09-13-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
SDR 709->Processing->Quantization Rotate is our banding pattern for SDR. Make sure the both your UHD BD player and game console (if not the same) are outputting the same color space and the picture settings are the same to compare the two.
Thanks. I will check it out this evening.
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post #461 of 495 Old 09-14-2019, 07:46 PM
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I have a very very beginner question for you all I have an blue ray calibration disc with color filters and it works amazingly well, and I feel I have a good eye for details when calibrating.

4k and HDR is brand new to me. I just got a new 4k HDR projector, an epson 5050ub and want to calibrate this.

Why cant I use my old disc for hdr ?
If this disc has no filter, how can I accurately adjust the colors, tiny, greyscale etc? Does it have all the patterns needed that can without a doubt allow to me calibrate relatively accurately? Or is it very basic and I need a pro calibration for uhd 4k HDR?

Thanks
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post #462 of 495 Old 09-14-2019, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Corcoran View Post
I have a very very beginner question for you all I have an blue ray calibration disc with color filters and it works amazingly well, and I feel I have a good eye for details when calibrating.

4k and HDR is brand new to me. I just got a new 4k HDR projector, an epson 5050ub and want to calibrate this.

Why cant I use my old disc for hdr ?
If this disc has no filter, how can I accurately adjust the colors, tiny, greyscale etc? Does it have all the patterns needed that can without a doubt allow to me calibrate relatively accurately? Or is it very basic and I need a pro calibration for uhd 4k HDR?

Thanks
FWIW, this is an edited version of a post I made in another thread. Purchasing the Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark disc was one of the best investments I made at $40 for my Epson 5050UB's calibration. I tried using my old Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmark Blu-ray Disc which was great for my old Sharp projector but it seemed off the mark for my Epson. The S&M UHD disc got me to where I'm just about spot on with most movies both SDR and HDR AND with no special equipment except my eyeballs and the folder blue filter from the Benchmark Blu-ray Disc (the UHD version doesn't come with a filter) but, if necessary, one can fold the old blue filter over so that lens 1 and 2 overlap to provide sufficient dimming of the color pattern. Most of the patterns are for "evaluation only" while a few are specifically for adjusting user controls.

However, according to the AVS S&M UHD Benchmark Disc thread the disc was not designed for pixel shifters and seems to be primarily geared towards the LG 65" OLED model types but for me it was an eyebrow-raising find. Be that as it may, the articles on the Spears and Munsil website give very good instructions on use without the need for special equipment.

That my 2 cents.
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post #463 of 495 Old 09-15-2019, 06:23 AM
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However, according to the AVS S&M UHD Benchmark Disc thread the disc was not designed for pixel shifters and seems to be primarily geared towards the LG 65" OLED model types but for me it was an eyebrow-raising find. Be that as it may, the articles on the Spears and Munsil website give very good instructions on use without the need for special equipment.

That my 2 cents.
Thank you for the feedback and sharing the links.

You can't actually design a disc for a given display technology, such as pixel shifting, as all displays use the same patterns and techniques to calibrate, be it LCD, LCOS, OLED, Plasma, DLP, CLED, etc... Pixel shifting is simply a method to simulate higher resolution. The resolution patterns on the disc will allow you to compare pixel shifting vs. true UHD.

Several displays were used during development include JVC LCOS, Sony LCD/OLED, LG OLED and Samsung LCD.

A consultant of Samsung had made a comment about the Montage and how it was optimized for LG OLED, which is why they say it did not look as good on a Samsung LCD. It was graded on a Dolby Pulsar LCD, so the OLED comment was odd. No creative decisions were made using anything other than the Dolby LCD. Given the high APL, OLEDs actually struggle with a number of shots in the montage. Then there is the HDR10+ version, which we made changes to at Samsung's request. Not the montage itself, just the target nit level in the HDR10+ metadata.
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post #464 of 495 Old 09-15-2019, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Corcoran View Post
I have a very very beginner question for you all I have an blue ray calibration disc with color filters and it works amazingly well, and I feel I have a good eye for details when calibrating.

4k and HDR is brand new to me. I just got a new 4k HDR projector, an epson 5050ub and want to calibrate this.

Why cant I use my old disc for hdr ?
If this disc has no filter, how can I accurately adjust the colors, tiny, greyscale etc? Does it have all the patterns needed that can without a doubt allow to me calibrate relatively accurately? Or is it very basic and I need a pro calibration for uhd 4k HDR?

Thanks
Hi Chris,

In order to calibrate HDR, you need to put the display into HDR mode. You can calibrate UHD SDR with an HD SDR calibration (Your current) disc.

As far as a blue filter, we have not found a blue filter that works across multiple displays, especially in HDR. We have purchased all of the filters we could find, including $80 glass filters and none of them work. e.g. The filter we shipped in the 2nd edition will work on an LG OLED if you have four layers of the material. On a Sony Z9D, even with 8 layers, it still does not work.

All of the calibration discs use the same Tokyo Blue filter material. Joe Kane used two layers, THX and AVIA used one layer. We have both one and two layers that fold to make three layers. Blue is the most likely to work. Green may work and red almost never works. Green and red are more useful for checking color decoding.

A filter like red, green or blue is only used to set the color and tint control, which really just adjust the color decoder. This is the block that converts YCbCr, from disc, to RGB. With a CRT you had drift and so this control was used to compensate for the analog circuitry. A modern digital display does not drift, so you don't need color or tint. These controls should actually be removed from modern displays. It is either right or wrong. And if it is wrong, it is wrong on purpose.

The only thing that will truly work is a blue only mode built into the display. And then, it must be done in the correct spot in the image pipeline. (closest to the panel) Samsung includes this and LG used to include it. Hoping LG will bring it back in 2020. Sony does not include one, wish they would start. The good news is that Samsung, LG, Sony and others are all correct by default and don't need to be touched in their cinema/movie/theater mode. To be clear, I don't want the color filter mode to set color and tint as they are correct, I want the mode to confirm color decoding is correct. Meaning, are they using the correct math. This requires a green and red only mode. It is this math were they introduce an error on purpose. (and sometimes not) It is a really simple 3x3 matrix. (Think back to your linear algebra class, who said algebra is not used in the real world! )

A filter does not let you adjust the gamut of the display, which is the real color adjustment. The gamut, along with grayscale, requires a colorimeter and software in conjunction with test patterns.

You have what I would call video setup. Brightness, contrast, color & tint and sharpness. Then you have video calibration, which is your CMS or grayscale (multi-point). CMS works if the display technology is linear like DLP but does not work on Plasma because it is not linear. The next level of calibration is the use of 1D and 3D LUTs. A 3D LUT is a must if your display is not linear. And the more points the better. In fact, HDR needs more points than SDR does. Disney presented a nice paper at SMPTE last year showing size of LUT as well as LUT algorithm. e.g. A trilinear LUT needs more points than a Tetrahedral does for the same quality.

Video setup you can do with test patterns and your eyes while video calibration requires the colorimeter and software.

With HDR, you have more complexity because of tone and gamut mapping. All HDR displays employ tone mapping. Some HDR displays perform gamut mapping while most simply let the gamut clip. The MadVR Envy allows you to perform gamut mapping. LG is the only company that lets you adjust a 1D and 3D LUT in display. For others, you need to use an external LUT box. For example, in my kitchen (yes, kitchen) I have an XB1 -> 3D LUT box -> 24" VIZIO.

Sorry for going off into the weeds.

We have sent blue filters to those that request them as long as they have provided proof of purchase. You would be surprised at how often people who pirate the disc ask for blue filters or maybe not.

Most manufacturers perform a factory calibration during manufacturing. The problem is panel variance, which is why most see an improvement when calibrating at home. Its also best to get at least 100 hours of use on your TV before you spend money on a calibration. A projector should be re-calibrated when you swap out the bulb.

And as I always say, if you are considering buying the disc, please read the 3rd edition articles on our website first. Make sure you are comfortable and know the limitations.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark

Last edited by sspears; 09-15-2019 at 09:48 AM.
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post #465 of 495 Old 09-15-2019, 11:05 AM
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Which disc would serve my TV better -2016 Sony X850D 65" TheSpears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark (UHD Blu-ray Disc or the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark and Calibration Disc 2nd Edition?
I would say most stuff I watch is 1080 most uhd stuff is through streaming sources like netflix and amazon.

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post #466 of 495 Old 09-15-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cburbs View Post
Which disc would serve my TV better -2016 Sony X850D 65" TheSpears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark (UHD Blu-ray Disc or the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark and Calibration Disc 2nd Edition?
I would say most stuff I watch is 1080 most uhd stuff is through streaming sources like netflix and amazon.
Which player do you have? Do you watch 3D?

If you have an Ultra HD player, I would recommend the UHD Benchmark. It covers both SDR and HDR and has an HD scaling pattern to test to see if it is better to use your player or display to do the scaling.

If you are streaming Netflix and Amazon, I assume you are watching content in UHD, when available.

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post #467 of 495 Old 09-15-2019, 06:43 PM
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I don't watch 3d.


I stream through plex from my Nvidia Sheild but most stuff I have is blu-ray



Yes on UHD 4k for netflix and amazon.

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post #468 of 495 Old 09-16-2019, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Thank you for the feedback and sharing the links.

You can't actually design a disc for a given display technology, such as pixel shifting, as all displays use the same patterns and techniques to calibrate, be it LCD, LCOS, OLED, Plasma, DLP, CLED, etc... Pixel shifting is simply a method to simulate higher resolution. The resolution patterns on the disc will allow you to compare pixel shifting vs. true UHD.

Several displays were used during development include JVC LCOS, Sony LCD/OLED, LG OLED and Samsung LCD.

A consultant of Samsung had made a comment about the Montage and how it was optimized for LG OLED, which is why they say it did not look as good on a Samsung LCD. It was graded on a Dolby Pulsar LCD, so the OLED comment was odd. No creative decisions were made using anything other than the Dolby LCD. Given the high APL, OLEDs actually struggle with a number of shots in the montage. Then there is the HDR10+ version, which we made changes to at Samsung's request. Not the montage itself, just the target nit level in the HDR10+ metadata.

Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. Seems the adjustments I made with the standard user controls of my Epson 5050UB using your Benchmark UHD disc (with the folded blue filter from the Benchmark HD disc) and the better than acceptable results I obtained are a testament to the apparent broad applicability of your efforts. A very nice and very usable cost effective product.

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post #469 of 495 Old 09-17-2019, 01:51 PM
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Is the A/V sync pattern and test on this version same as the blu ray one?

For some reason I have a difficult time using the blu ray one with my projector.
On the BD, I saw 2-3 black squares almost filled at the same time as the sync bar pass by. When I thought I got it spot on, I play a movie the lip sync are off. I ended up using movies scenes to adjust the lipsync.

Just wondering if there was an improved way on the UHD version.
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post #470 of 495 Old 09-17-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PoorSignal View Post
Is the A/V sync pattern and test on this version same as the blu ray one?

For some reason I have a difficult time using the blu ray one with my projector.
On the BD, I saw 2-3 black squares almost filled at the same time as the sync bar pass by. When I thought I got it spot on, I play a movie the lip sync are off. I ended up using movies scenes to adjust the lipsync.

Just wondering if there was an improved way on the UHD version.
It has the two types @ 23.98 from the HD BD disc and a 3rd designed to be used with a Sync-one2.

I use my hands out in front of me so I can only see one box at a time. Start with the center and then try one to the left or right. Makes it easier, but still not like using a Sync-One2, which just spits out a number.

I also prefer the side-to-side style as I can follow it with my head back and fourth. Don prefers the other one that loops around.

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post #471 of 495 Old 09-17-2019, 03:40 PM
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I spent some time today with the UHD benchmark but only got through "Contrast" and "Brightness" settings. I couldn't see the lightest 2 or 3 patterns but I ended up setting contrast to 55 when I could see the lightest bar which was the third or fourth lightest. I could never see the last 2 or so bars with contrast set at the highest and lowest setting. Is this normal? My prior contrast setting was significantly higher at 85.

As far as brightness, I ended up using what was already set prior at "54". I set to highest setting and then started lowering the brightness until I couldn't see the two left bars on the screen. I could only see the two on the right side.

Little by little I may get the hang of this?

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post #472 of 495 Old 09-17-2019, 09:45 PM
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Hi Stacey,

I have been playing with the Color Space Evaluation (SDR) on my Samsung QLED and not quite sure what the results mean.

With my Oppo based media streamer (supposedly same as Oppo but w/o physical disk), The CS settings make no difference between 420, 422, 444. RGB etc - at least i can't tell any difference. In theory the Oppo streamer should be using the same chipset as the original 203 player but I think I can see the upscaling algorithm is 'near neighbor' rather than the more sophisticated Bi-xxxx.

When I play the mts file on my Kodi ODroid N2 box, results looks much better - definitely not 'near neigbour'

Would you mind having a look at the attached and opine please? The diagonals look very jagged on the Oppo M9702 but much better on the ODroid? The box colors for both devices look quite different to my eyes too.

Also, with the diamond patterns, I think i can see near neighbour half-pixel shift. Odroid looks bi-xxxx

PS - any chance of digital copies (mkv) of the disk for those who have purchased?

Cheers
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post #473 of 495 Old 09-18-2019, 04:39 AM
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Also, how important is it for the each set of burst pattern boxes to be same colour? For my Oppo source, RGB Video Level gives the best match. All the other CS's are way off and similar

PS all this is SDR - have not got to HDR yet largely due to the fear factor
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post #474 of 495 Old 09-18-2019, 04:51 AM
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Just found this on HDTVTest - seems to imply Oppo uses nearest neighbour upscaling :

For the less important but still noteworthy chroma upscaling, the OPPO 203 also does a good job. All Blu-ray players must upscale chroma on all displays, because the 4:2:0 chroma subsampling method used by DVD, BD and UHD BD stores the colored layers of the picture at half the resolution of the luminance. Panasonic frequently touts the superior quality of its own proprietary chroma upsampling method, and it’s true that this can result in higher color detail, again most notably on large projection-sized setups. For example, the red and blue diagonal lines on the Spears & Munsil test disc’s Color Space checker appeared less jagged on Panasonic’s UB900 when compared to the OPPO UDP-203. On the other hand, Panasonic’s extra chroma processing resulted in the side-effect of false-colored ringing in flatter areas like color bars (or for a real-world example, logos), whereas OPPO’s simpler chroma scaling did not. Once again though, on a television-sized display, you’d struggle to see these differences with 99% of content, and both methods have their strengths and weaknesses.

https://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oppo...1705024457.htm

Edit : Confirmed from CoreElec N2 forums that Oppo uses near neighbour for Chroma upscaling. Odroid N2 (Amlogic) uses bilinear or bicubic and outputs 444 by default.

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post #475 of 495 Old 09-18-2019, 07:50 AM
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I spent some time today with the UHD benchmark but only got through "Contrast" and "Brightness" settings. I couldn't see the lightest 2 or 3 patterns but I ended up setting contrast to 55 when I could see the lightest bar which was the third or fourth lightest. I could never see the last 2 or so bars with contrast set at the highest and lowest setting. Is this normal? My prior contrast setting was significantly higher at 85.

As far as brightness, I ended up using what was already set prior at "54". I set to highest setting and then started lowering the brightness until I couldn't see the two left bars on the screen. I could only see the two on the right side.

Little by little I may get the hang of this?
Which display are you using? Is the above for SDR or HDR?

The last bar can certainly be very difficult to see given it is one code value from clipping. In the case of HDR, you have tone mapping that has to compress the range of the upper code values, which at some point looks like clipping.

Once you let me know which display and if you are looking at HDR or SDR, I can provide some more guidance.

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post #476 of 495 Old 09-18-2019, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Also, how important is it for the each set of burst pattern boxes to be same colour? For my Oppo source, RGB Video Level gives the best match. All the other CS's are way off and similar

PS all this is SDR - have not got to HDR yet largely due to the fear factor
The way you "read" the resolution bursts is based on brightness. The brighter they are, the closer they are to correct. Now, nearest neighbor can give give the false sense of brightness. What nearest neighbor actually does it copy the pixel next to it vs. interpolating the pixel.

I don't recall the OPPO using NN, but it certainly has chroma alignment shift. I find using a loupe makes it much easier to see the chroma alignment diamonds. Wait until you see them at 8K!

Video levels are correct, but that should only apply to RGB output.

If you don't see any difference between them, that is a good sign. There should not be any difference in theory if everything is doing it correctly.

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post #477 of 495 Old 09-18-2019, 07:56 AM
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Hi Stacey,

I have been playing with the Color Space Evaluation (SDR) on my Samsung QLED and not quite sure what the results mean.

With my Oppo based media streamer (supposedly same as Oppo but w/o physical disk), The CS settings make no difference between 420, 422, 444. RGB etc - at least i can't tell any difference. In theory the Oppo streamer should be using the same chipset as the original 203 player but I think I can see the upscaling algorithm is 'near neighbor' rather than the more sophisticated Bi-xxxx.

When I play the mts file on my Kodi ODroid N2 box, results looks much better - definitely not 'near neigbour'

Would you mind having a look at the attached and opine please? The diagonals look very jagged on the Oppo M9702 but much better on the ODroid? The box colors for both devices look quite different to my eyes too.

Also, with the diamond patterns, I think i can see near neighbour half-pixel shift. Odroid looks bi-xxxx

PS - any chance of digital copies (mkv) of the disk for those who have purchased?

Cheers
We will consider some MP4 files after we finish the add-on next year. For the static patterns on disc, they are two frames long. For MP4, they would need to be running video and one minute is a nice length. It takes around one hour to encode one minute of UHD at the highest setting. So around 1400 hours to encode the entire disc as MP4. There is also the issue of disc space. An uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:0 source to feed the encoder is around 33 GBs in size for one minute. Vs. 48 MB for a 2-frame file.

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post #478 of 495 Old 09-18-2019, 08:37 AM
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Which display are you using? Is the above for SDR or HDR?

The last bar can certainly be very difficult to see given it is one code value from clipping. In the case of HDR, you have tone mapping that has to compress the range of the upper code values, which at some point looks like clipping.

Once you let me know which display and if you are looking at HDR or SDR, I can provide some more guidance.
I have the LG C9 OLED and only got as far as SDR which is supposed to be completed first.

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post #479 of 495 Old 09-18-2019, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The way you "read" the resolution bursts is based on brightness. The brighter they are, the closer they are to correct. Now, nearest neighbor can give give the false sense of brightness. What nearest neighbor actually does it copy the pixel next to it vs. interpolating the pixel.

I don't recall the OPPO using NN, but it certainly has chroma alignment shift. I find using a loupe makes it much easier to see the chroma alignment diamonds. Wait until you see them at 8K!

Video levels are correct, but that should only apply to RGB output.

If you don't see any difference between them, that is a good sign. There should not be any difference in theory if everything is doing it correctly.
I have been playing some more and looks like RGB mode is incorrect. For HDR, on various clipping pattern, Green and Cyan are clipped horribly while the rest are extended too much. Cyan also has a horrid tint. With YCbCr, only Red is clipped a couple of notches before the rest (as per usual with Red) - all the other colours line up pretty much the same. What really sealed it was the HD Colour bars in Green filter mode. All 4 bars are different in RGB whereas they are the same with YCbCr.

BTW, the Gamma tracking pattern does not work on Samsung QLED. My SDR is meter calibrated and Gamma tracks perfectly at 2.4 but the SM patterns flash.
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I have the LG C9 OLED and only got as far as SDR which is supposed to be completed first.
The LG has independent controls for SDR and HDR, so it does not matter. For SDR, be sure to use either cinema or technicolor mode. Then go in and change gamma to BT.1886.
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