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post #541 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Stacey,

Actually Ted's calibration disk, which has been released at 2013 do this



You can load the disk to your player, like an OPPO for example, and select the 21-Point Cube 1 sec DIP mode chapter which will display 9261 patches (it will display each patch per 1 second), without any user prompt during the whole process except one initial press 'OK' for starting measurements with LightSpace.

That '1 sec' chapter will work only Klein K-10A colorimeter as the meter is so fast and has fixed integration time (it takes about 150ms to read any patch), it will take 2H34M to finish all the automatic measurements of 9261 patches.

While that chapter will change the patterns per 1 second, it will include 0.5 sec of delay before the meter reading, for the patch to stabilize to the screen. That method of special syncing I have designed the disk is working only with LightSpace.

Just I wanted to remind that capabilities, as exist calibration disk to take 1000/4913/9261 colors without any manual process of changing patches, I post this info here as you have posted that its impossible to be displayed 10000 patterns via a disk. we talked about that capability again before 4 years: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post37413562

Actually that process is faster than from performing the same measurements using an external generator, like Murideo for example, as if you measure the same patches (9261 colors) with 0.5 sec delay before patch read, it will take up to about 5-7 minutes longer, as you add latency and time it will spend for software to send commands and communicate with the external generator, for the patterns to be generated.

So that method is actually faster than from using any external generator.
Yes and no. Yes, you have a single video file with 21^3 patches in it and it is a fixed patch set. The fixed set is fine for software that likes to use a fixed patch set. It is just one approach. As I said, some software can use a dynamic patch set based on the linearity of the display, which is a different approach. Some like the fixed and some like the dynamic. I am not here to debate the pros and cons of different approaches.

We could easily make a fixed patch set with 256^3 patches with a fixed delay, but I don't believe that is the best way to go. Don't get me wrong, your solution is great and helps a lot of people that otherwise won't have a a generator.

I would rather make the patches individual files that can be directly played by software w/ a player that has serial control. We laid all the patterns out so they are easily played via serial with the OPPO. I was planning to write a source filter for CalMAN that would control the disc, but I think I will wait until we have the Dolby Vision version done since it will be more useful.

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post #542 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you calibrate to BT.2020/P3 (P3 in BT.2020 container) you are simply “aligning” these points; you won’t be clipping colours outside the P3 gamut.
If they run it through Transkoder afterwords and set the constraint to P3, then everything outside of P3 will be pulled back into P3. Transkoder is used by many as it is the best solution available for HDR tone and gamut mapping.

Dolby Vision has the same ability based on the trim pass. We have both P3 and 2020 trim passes on the 2020 primary grade. I had rendered a P3 by mistake and when I looked at it on the HDR Analyzer, you could see the colors were pulled into the P3 triangle.

I did get the chance to view the red tulips on a DCinema laser projector that covered most of 2020 and it was pretty cool. As saturated as they look on screen, it is still less than what they looked like in real life. As we drove up to the tulip farm, the red was pretty surreal. I don't think I have seen colors like that before in real life.
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post #543 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Stacey,

It will be interesting to release in the future the 'Montage' as DoVi MP4 media file encoded with ICtCp.
I wish I could do that on disc. But, we can look at that for an mp4 file. Good suggestion!
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post #544 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The DV enhancement layer is actually more than just the difference between 10 and 12-bit. It is the difference between the decoded 10-bit 4:2:0 base layer and the original 12-bit 4:2:2 source. So if there are compression artifacts in the base layer, those can actually get fixed up when the enhancement layer is applied.

When LG did their 8K launch event a couple of weeks ago, in the US, they had both an mp4 8K HD encode as well as the 16-bit TIFFs. From what I have heard, it was difficult to tell the difference. I was worried the 60a/99p would be too low for 8KHD. I did end up using placebo mode, which took a while to encode. The UHD version takes around 12 hours to encode at the slow setting. The DV versions due have compression artifacts because the Sony encoder is not as good as x265. You have to pixel peep to see the difference, but they are there. Now I can use x265 for Dolby Vision 4.0 profile 7, so that will be a better encode too. I will also use placebo next time around.
I see 2 montage videos with DoVi EL:

1)

MPEG-H HEVC Video 62834 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / HDR10 / BT.2020
MPEG-H HEVC Video 17645 kbps 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / Dolby Vision / BT.2020

2)

MPEG-H HEVC Video 75385 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / HDR10 / BT.2020
* MPEG-H HEVC Video 2124 kbps 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / Dolby Vision / BT.2020

Both files have the same details:

Base Layer:

Format profile : Main [email protected]@High
HDR format : SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth : 10 bits
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
Matrix coefficients : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries : BT.2020
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 10000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 10000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 1676 cd/m2

Enhancement Layer:

Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth : 10 bits
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
Matrix coefficients : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries : BT.2020
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 10000 cd/m2

What is the difference?

AFIK, Dolby is currently using 4:2:0 EL (page 11), is it possible to store the difference from original 12-bit 4:2:2 as the EL layer which is 4:2:0?

There rumors that EL will be 4:2:2 or ITP in the future.

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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
When LG did their 8K launch event a couple of weeks ago, in the US, they had both an mp4 8K HD encode as well as the 16-bit TIFFs. From what I have heard, it was difficult to tell the difference. I was worried the 60a/99p would be too low for 8KHD. I did end up using placebo mode, which took a while to encode. The UHD version takes around 12 hours to encode at the slow setting. The DV versions due have compression artifacts because the Sony encoder is not as good as x265. You have to pixel peep to see the difference, but they are there. Now I can use x265 for Dolby Vision 4.0 profile 7, so that will be a better encode too. I will also use placebo next time around.
So Dolby's studies where they found so much issues and differences in hues etc... are all a marketing tool only to promote ICtCp compression algorithm, and companies to pay fees to Dolby for using it in the future?

I'm asking you since you had the content as uncompressed, so the capability to evaluate.

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post #545 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I see 2 montage videos with DoVi EL:

1)

MPEG-H HEVC Video 62834 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / HDR10 / BT.2020
MPEG-H HEVC Video 17645 kbps 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / Dolby Vision / BT.2020

2)

MPEG-H HEVC Video 75385 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / HDR10 / BT.2020
* MPEG-H HEVC Video 2124 kbps 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / Dolby Vision / BT.2020

Both files have the same details:

Base Layer:

Format profile : Main [email protected]@High
HDR format : SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth : 10 bits
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
Matrix coefficients : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries : BT.2020
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 10000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 10000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 1676 cd/m2

Enhancement Layer:

Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth : 10 bits
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
Matrix coefficients : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries : BT.2020
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 10000 cd/m2

What is the difference?

AFIK, Dolby is currently using 4:2:0 EL (page 11), is it possible to store the difference from original 12-bit 4:2:2 as the EL layer which is 4:2:0?

There rumors that EL will be 4:2:2 or ITP in the future.



So Dolby's studies where they found so much issues and differences in hues etc... are all a marketing tool only to promote ICtCp compression algorithm, and companies to pay fees to Dolby for using it in the future?

I'm asking you since you had the content as uncompressed, so the capability to evaluate.
One is full and one is minimal EL. While the encode is 10-bit 4:2:0 1080p, it’s not an actual video file. It is residual data. Don’t let that confuse what you are actually getting. Think of it as a container of data. Until it goes through the Dolby engine to be reconstructed, it’s not an actual image. I believe it also puts it back into full range, which is the source fed into the Dolby tools.

You don’t have to pay to use ICtCp.
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post #546 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
You don’t have to pay to use ICtCp.
You pay for the DoVi iCMU license (software or hardware) and to certify the lab for DoVi mastering and playback, these are have annual fees (page 14).

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post #547 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The reality is that the actual problem is even bigger, I have posted before 2 years (text below THX pictures...click the 3 links): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post53757713

My post will disappoint a lot who have entered to HDR calibration marathon, trying to calibrate for HDR with any possible way, the fact that we are all limited from the big problem appear from REC.2020 YCbCr encoding.
It is a pity. But I'm not entering the HDR calibration marathon if those are the rules. Thank-you for your detailed technical information, but it would be possible to read your post and come away thinking that HDR is all so terrible that we might as well give up and go home, or that the industry should not have released HDR until 2040 . I take a different view. I'm delighted that they released HDR and did their best to make it expandable in future. For me, HDR is the most exciting and impactful thing in TV since the introduction of colour.

Quote:
Its impossible to watch any HDR content as its mastered, even if you buy the a Sony BMV-X300 to your home, the same monitor a an HDR movie has been mastered, you know why? ....because colorist do the grading in uncompressed RGB but later once the movie will be encoded to YCbCr, there issue with REC20202 YCbCr compressing which will add errors between 3.2 to 6.3 dE 2000 range!
Sure, but if you put it like that, you could equally say it's impossible to watch any SDR content as it's mastered without buying the Sony BMV-X300. Do not buy a car unless you can afford a Ferrari. Etc.

Quote:
So starting from that fact, you will never see an HDR movie as its been mastered.
Yes, but what I can see on my "cheap" (it's not cheap at all, it's the most expensive TV I've ever bought and worth every penny IMHO) little (compared with the things my American friends here are buying) OLED TV still looks AMAZING.

Quote:
So the whole HDR calibration concept is lucking hen its coming to color accuracy, with current display tech to consumer market.
I thought you had got very angry and started swearing then, but I misread it the first time

Quote:
So out of gamut colors as Vincent talking to his video have introduced after the encoding, as when you map P3 inside 2020 container, all colors should be inside P3 colorspace only, before the YCbCr encoding.
Well, @Vincent Teoh has an account here now so maybe he will read these posts and add an update?

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post #548 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
It is a pity. But I'm not entering the HDR calibration marathon if those are the rules. Thank-you for your detailed technical information, but it would be possible to read your post and come away thinking that HDR is all so terrible that we might as well give up and go home, or that the industry should not have released HDR until 2040 . I take a different view. I'm delighted that they released HDR and did their best to make it expandable in future. For me, HDR is the most exciting and impactful thing in TV since the introduction of colour.
After a lot of years when there will be available displays with 6 primary colors, as with 3 primaries as the wider the native display gamut will be (closer to 1nm primaries of REC.2020) the bigger the problem will be with the observers as the color will look very different to each person, with a new Color Matching Function, and with display which can reach the luminance levels the movies are mastered (and gamut), ...when it will be stable for 2-3 hours with no APL, we will be all happy, and you should watch content as its been mastered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Sure, but if you put it like that, you could equally say it's impossible to watch any SDR content as it's mastered without buying the Sony BMV-X300. Do not buy a car unless you can afford a Ferrari. Etc.
As SDR Movies are mastered @ 100 nits , gamma 2.4 and REC.709, using post-production monitors with 3D LUT with no APL, at home, with LG OLED 2018/2019 and 3D LUT, REC.709, 100 nits, gamma 2.4, (as LG don't have APL until ~150 nits), you can have a by far greater 'artistic intent' picture for SDR, miles away from the in-accurate colors you see @ HDR from the same TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Yes, but what I can see on my cheap little OLED TV still looks AMAZING.
For me who watch SDR and only 3D LUT's TV from 2011, its a joke the colors of all HDR movies I have seen, about 100 or more (to a calibrated OLED's).

But its OK to watch is you don't care so much and your eyes are not so trained from experience and years of watching reference picture.

Its not that as a tech is not promising, but after a lot of years we will see something good.
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post #549 of 581 Old 10-04-2019, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
You don’t have to pay to use ICtCp.
Only for software license of Dolby Vision CMU for Resolve you pay 5K euros per year (+ EU VAT).

For external Dolby Vision CMU and and for license about encoding with Dolby Encoding engine its more expensive, also for DoVi certification lab the price is increased per year even more.

Dolby Vision software decoding/encoding for MTI Film Cortex cost 4K$.

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post #550 of 581 Old 10-05-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You pay for the DoVi iCMU license (software or hardware) and to certify the lab for DoVi mastering and playback, these are have annual fees (page 14).
Not sure why you are responding with a Dolby Vision license when we were talking about a subsampling format. ICtCp does not require a license. And you can use ICtCp outside of Dolby Vision, there is a flag for it in HEVC to signal it.

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post #551 of 581 Old 10-06-2019, 12:14 PM
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Comments below all pertain to HDR:

When looking at the sharpness pattern I noticed eight boxes or patches around the perimeter, two on each side. Maybe they are single-pixel checkerboards. With my sharpness setting at 0 (min) the boxes look slightly darker than the background, when I set sharpness to 1 the boxes disappear into the background, any higher and the boxes become lighter than the background. I see the same behavior in the image cropping pattern with the top and bottom of the three boxes in the middle of the pattern. What does having the boxes match the background in each pattern mean, if anything? Does it mean that sharpness = 1 is my "optimum" setting? For what its worth, I have a Samsung NU7100 TV and a Samsung M7500 UHD Blu-ray player.
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post #552 of 581 Old 10-06-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by brygalt_hdr View Post
Comments below all pertain to HDR:

When looking at the sharpness pattern I noticed eight boxes or patches around the perimeter, two on each side. Maybe they are single-pixel checkerboards. With my sharpness setting at 0 (min) the boxes look slightly darker than the background, when I set sharpness to 1 the boxes disappear into the background, any higher and the boxes become lighter than the background. I see the same behavior in the image cropping pattern with the top and bottom of the three boxes in the middle of the pattern. What does having the boxes match the background in each pattern mean, if anything? Does it mean that sharpness = 1 is my "optimum" setting? For what its worth, I have a Samsung NU7100 TV and a Samsung M7500 UHD Blu-ray player.
Those boxes in the four corners of the sharpness are the same style as the top (of the three) on the image cropping pattern. It is a 2D burst of Nyquist / 2. 2D means both horizontal and vertical. Nqyuist / 2 means we took the Nyquist frequency and divided it by 2.

The single pixel checkerboard does not work (blend into the background) on all displays. Normally DLP, LCD and OLED work well while LCOS never works. However, on some LCDs like some Sony and Samsung they don't always work. Still not 100% sure why.

The image cropping has the 2D as:

Nyquist / 2
Nyquist
Nyquist / 3

Those boxes on the sharpness should not really be visible from your viewing position. When you turn sharpness up, they usually stand out. I have not seen a display where +1 makes them go away though. This suggests that 0 is a negative or softening value while 1 is neutral or off. Based on what you have described, sharpness of 1 sounds correct.

Just to confirm, you don't see any ringing (halos) added at 1 vs. 0 do you? The more you turn sharpness up, the more those boxes will stand out and ringing will appear around the various lines.

If all three boxes blend on the image cropping, it means PQ is tracking at that point. The middle (single pixel checker aka Nyquist 2D) is the same thing that is in the middle of each of the tracking boxes on the color space eval pattern.

Does the same thing occur on both SDR and HDR?

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post #553 of 581 Old 10-07-2019, 01:51 PM
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Well I got my copy and Calibrating my 4K HDR projector already seeing improvement. What surprised me more is that it made me realize that I had bad focus, therefore I also had the sharpness option wrong which I then corrected, and now it's perfect and wonderful. I also corrected brightness a bit, but I have now a question.

The whole purpose for me of getting this calibration disc was because I recently changed my screen from a white to a gray screen, which gives me better black levels. But of course now I had to tweak things a bit, so I was most interested in brightness/contrast, only to find out that brightness and contrast is not recommended to me moved on HDR mode. I know HDR in a projector is not considered true HDR by most, but damn the picture sure looks a lot better.

Now, the disc didn't give me a calibration pattern for contrast in HDR but it did give me for brightness in HDR, which informed me I only had to turn 1 tiny bar up, and that's it (BTW selecting the brightness PLUGE in HDR directly from the menu converted it in SDR, but using the control arrows let me seeing it in HDR) ... SO.. by doing that did I altered the HDR performance badly? What more could I do for HDR if I'm now using a darker screen for projection? My projector is this year's model BenQ W1700M 4K.

Thanks so much in Advance.

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post #554 of 581 Old 10-07-2019, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Those boxes in the four corners of the sharpness are the same style as the top (of the three) on the image cropping pattern. It is a 2D burst of Nyquist / 2. 2D means both horizontal and vertical. Nqyuist / 2 means we took the Nyquist frequency and divided it by 2.

The single pixel checkerboard does not work (blend into the background) on all displays. Normally DLP, LCD and OLED work well while LCOS never works. However, on some LCDs like some Sony and Samsung they don't always work. Still not 100% sure why.

The image cropping has the 2D as:

Nyquist / 2
Nyquist
Nyquist / 3

Those boxes on the sharpness should not really be visible from your viewing position. When you turn sharpness up, they usually stand out. I have not seen a display where +1 makes them go away though. This suggests that 0 is a negative or softening value while 1 is neutral or off. Based on what you have described, sharpness of 1 sounds correct.

Just to confirm, you don't see any ringing (halos) added at 1 vs. 0 do you? The more you turn sharpness up, the more those boxes will stand out and ringing will appear around the various lines.

If all three boxes blend on the image cropping, it means PQ is tracking at that point. The middle (single pixel checker aka Nyquist 2D) is the same thing that is in the middle of each of the tracking boxes on the color space eval pattern.

Does the same thing occur on both SDR and HDR?
Stacey,
I don't see halos with either 0 or 1 in HDR. Eventually I do as I continue to increase sharpness. By the way, the max sharpness value on my TV is 20.

In SDR the behavior is quite different and maybe more like what you were expecting. In SDR the boxes blend into the sharpness pattern background at most sharpness setting values. Eventually I can turn it up enough to see them, but nowhere near the sensitivity I see in HDR. One thought I had that might account for this difference between SDR and HDR is that my budget TV is not a true 10 bit panel, its 8bit+FRC. Could the Frame Rate Control dithering be interfering with your nyquist/2 patterns when my TV is displaying HDR content?
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post #555 of 581 Old 10-08-2019, 05:16 AM
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Not sure why you are responding with a Dolby Vision license when we were talking about a subsampling format. ICtCp does not require a license. And you can use ICtCp outside of Dolby Vision, there is a flag for it in HEVC to signal it.
You can't create a DoVi mastered movie without buying license from Dolby to use all the required tools.

The discussion started from the fact that you said that people who compared your master files vs. REC.2020 YCbCr encoded ones haven't noticed any difference, this means that all Dolby's studies are only marketing to promote ICtCp as future standard for compression, for that reason I mentioned prices, as if ICtCp becomes the only encoding standard, studios will have to buy a lot of license related stuff from Dolby, so Dolby push with studies describing the YCbCr as a tool to promote their ICtCp.

I don't believe that is true as according to the ITU-R and Dolby studies, where they found that using YCbCr in REC.2020 you get minimum 3.2 dE2000 added until 6.3 dE2000. (page 43)

Netflix has published some raw and compressed stuff for such tests:

https://cascadestream.com/2018/07/13...n-movie-files/

http://download.opencontent.netflix.com/

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post #556 of 581 Old 10-08-2019, 06:19 AM
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You can't create a DoVi mastered movie without buying license from Dolby to use all the required tools.

The discussion started from the fact that you said that people who compared your master files vs. REC.2020 YCbCr encoded ones haven't noticed any difference, this means that all Dolby's studies are only marketing to promote ICtCp as future standard for compression, for that reason I mentioned prices, as if ICtCp becomes the only encoding standard, studios will have to buy a lot of license related stuff from Dolby, so Dolby push with studies describing the YCbCr as a tool to promote their ICtCp.

I don't believe that is true as according to the ITU-R and Dolby studies, where they found that using YCbCr in REC.2020 you get minimum 3.2 dE2000 added until 6.3 dE2000. (page 43)

Netflix has published some raw and compressed stuff for such tests:

https://cascadestream.com/2018/07/13...n-movie-files/

http://download.opencontent.netflix.com/
I am not arguing that a license is required to unlock Dolby features in some tools, I am saying that you can use ICtCp outside of Dolby Vision.

If you re-read my posts, I said that the original montage had the issues that ICtCp intended to solve. Then I went on to say that I ran the montage through Transkoder that dealt with those issues with some pre-processing. With that said, ICtCp is still the better way to go for many reasons.

Here is an example paper on pre-processing techniques to reduce artifacts in YCbCr that show up in HDR. Everyone is trying to find different ways to make YCbCr last as long as possible.

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post #557 of 581 Old 10-14-2019, 08:45 AM
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Forgive me if this has been discussed already. The AVSForum search engine does not like searching for HLG.

I have an LG C8 display and a Panasonic UB820 player. When play the SDR/HLG demo file, the C8 stays in SDR, should it switch into HLG/HDR? In the UB820 I have the HLG/PQ set to Auto, although the C8 switches to HLG/HDR with a USB sourced HLG file played by the UB820.

Is there something that I can do to permit the demo file to play in HLG?

Thanks,

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Originally Posted by LeRoyK View Post
Forgive me if this has been discussed already. The AVSForum search engine does not like searching for HLG.



I have an LG C8 display and a Panasonic UB820 player. When play the SDR/HLG demo file, the C8 stays in SDR, should it switch into HLG/HDR? In the UB820 I have the HLG/PQ set to Auto, although the C8 switches to HLG/HDR with a USB sourced HLG file played by the UB820.



Is there something that I can do to permit the demo file to play in HLG?



Thanks,



LeRoy


The HLG file Is meant for displays that can be manually switched into HLG mode, as HLG is not a supported format for UHD BD.

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The HLG file Is meant for displays that can be manually switched into HLG mode, as HLG is not a supported format for UHD BD.
Thanks Tyler, I thought maybe I was holding my tongue wrong.

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post #560 of 581 Old 10-15-2019, 06:33 AM
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Thanks Tyler, I thought maybe I was holding my tongue wrong.
We tried to get the HLG flagged as HLG, but the authoring software won't allow it as Tyler mentioned. We have asked LG to add a manual setting to toggle HLG like Sony and Panasonic offer. No idea if they will or not on a future display.

What you are viewing is the backwards compatible SDR from the HLG version. It is also 2020 SDR, which you don't see often.
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post #561 of 581 Old 10-15-2019, 10:31 AM
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Here is an observation I have made.

With the Panasonic UB820 and my self calibrated LG C8 HDR mode. I can make the HDR 10,000 and HDR 4000 playback of the horses, snow around the lake, sun rise on the far right, white sand, the chick's feathers on the right side, and other scenes show the near white details of the Dolby Vision scenes by doing the following with the UB820.

Set HDR Optimizer to ON with OLED set as the display type.
Move the White Tone Curve control to the highest setting (12).

Enjoy the near white details in the demo material scenes that were not visible with the White Tone Curve control centered.

This setting does dim the whole scene a bit, so you will need to decide if you want to see the near white detail or somewhat brighter scenes.

Stacy, if you have the time and inclination, I would be interested in seeing the tone curve that this setting creates added to your tone curve xlsx.

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post #562 of 581 Old 10-16-2019, 08:02 AM
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Here is an observation I have made.


Set HDR Optimizer to ON with OLED set as the display type.
Move the White Tone Curve control to the highest setting (12).

Stacy, if you have the time and inclination, I would be interested in seeing the tone curve that this setting creates added to your tone curve xlsx.

LeRoy
I will get it done before the weekend. If I forget, please feel free to remind me.

One note, there is some hard clipping in the 4000 versions. We intentionally clipped (more like an aggressive tone map) around 4000 to point out the detail that goes above 4000.
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post #563 of 581 Old 10-18-2019, 06:45 AM
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Hi.. I have a question. as I've stated before I have a projector (BenQ W1700M), and when I calibrated it (for SDR with the "enhancements" deactivated) I had to turn the contrast way down than the default settings, which felt weird. And don't get me wrong, images actually look more natural albeit dimmer. But IDK, it felt weird to had to turn the contrast so down, giving me the feeling that I may be doing something against what a projector is suppose to be doing.

But then I checked in the Contrast instructions the part where says "If you only want to calibrate up to reference white (or your display or player won’t reproduce values above reference white), you can adjust so all the bars above level 939 disappear" and I tried that, and the image looked much more vibrant, and I didn't perceived any significant loss of detail at all, even tho the contrast pattern looked almost clipped. Checked this with 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 from the player and again, the "enhancements" in the projector where all deactivated (actually I rarely use any) and all same results.

So my question is, which one would be the more realistic contrast setting for my projector?

Last edited by Oscarilbo; 10-18-2019 at 07:05 AM.
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post #564 of 581 Old 10-18-2019, 09:23 AM
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Hi.. I have a question. as I've stated before I have a projector (BenQ W1700M), and when I calibrated it (for SDR with the "enhancements" deactivated) I had to turn the contrast way down than the default settings, which felt weird. And don't get me wrong, images actually look more natural albeit dimmer. But IDK, it felt weird to had to turn the contrast so down, giving me the feeling that I may be doing something against what a projector is suppose to be doing.

But then I checked in the Contrast instructions the part where says "If you only want to calibrate up to reference white (or your display or player won’t reproduce values above reference white), you can adjust so all the bars above level 939 disappear" and I tried that, and the image looked much more vibrant, and I didn't perceived any significant loss of detail at all, even tho the contrast pattern looked almost clipped. Checked this with 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 from the player and again, the "enhancements" in the projector where all deactivated (actually I rarely use any) and all same results.

So my question is, which one would be the more realistic contrast setting for my projector?
For SDR, setting contrast so you see every step up to 1019 is correct. This preserves headroom. Setting to clip at 940 will produce a more contrasty image, with a bit more light output, but it may also cause hue shifts on pixels that go above 940 when converted to RGB. Every BD I have ever dumped has pixels above 940 when converted to RGB. Some prefer to get more contrast and clip earlier.

For HDR10/Dolby Vision, 940 is the max. For HLG, the BBC wants to use up to 1019 while NHK wants to clip at 940.
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post #565 of 581 Old 10-18-2019, 10:28 AM
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For SDR, setting contrast so you see every step up to 1019 is correct. This preserves headroom. Setting to clip at 940 will produce a more contrasty image, with a bit more light output, but it may also cause hue shifts on pixels that go above 940 when converted to RGB. Every BD I have ever dumped has pixels above 940 when converted to RGB. Some prefer to get more contrast and clip earlier.

For HDR10/Dolby Vision, 940 is the max. For HLG, the BBC wants to use up to 1019 while NHK wants to clip at 940.
Thank you. So It's a matter of personal preference in the end, right?

Is it ok if I use the "bars with no clipping" image example of the pattern as a visual reference of a well calibrated contrast?
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post #566 of 581 Old 10-19-2019, 03:10 PM
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No HDR10+

Hi,

Any idea why the disc is telling me that my TV or player is not supporting HDR10+? Both in the Panasonic GZ2000 and the DP-UB820 the HDR10+ option is switched on, also the Denon X6500 is in 'passthrough' mode.
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post #567 of 581 Old 10-19-2019, 05:58 PM
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Hi,

Any idea why the disc is telling me that my TV or player is not supporting HDR10+? Both in the Panasonic GZ2000 and the DP-UB820 the HDR10+ option is switched on, also the Denon X6500 is in 'passthrough' mode.
"Pass Through" on the Denon only works when the receiver is OFF. It allows signals from the chosen input to go through to the display when the receiver is powered down if you don't want/need the full audio. See here: http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX6500H/N...SYkabkahie.php

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post #568 of 581 Old 10-20-2019, 12:15 AM
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"Pass Through" on the Denon only works when the receiver is OFF. It allows signals from the chosen input to go through to the display when the receiver is powered down if you don't want/need the full audio. See here: http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX6500H/N...SYkabkahie.php
I know, just to be sure the Denon is not interfering with the signal.
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post #569 of 581 Old 10-20-2019, 04:16 AM
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I know, just to be sure the Denon is not interfering with the signal.
Just so you are clear, it is "interfering".

An HDMI port is either decoding or transmitting (it can't do both), so as long as picture and sound are encoded on one cable, the AVR has to decode the stream, separate the audio, and then repackage the picture info back up for transmitting to the TV.

The menu item you are talking about, just selects one input which gets that decode-repackage-transmit process applied to it (with audio not removed), when the receiver is in "standby" (actually powered up partially, doing all of this work and processing). Hence Denon's warning:
Quote:
When “HDMI Pass Through” and “HDMI Control” is set to “On”, it consumes more standby power.
If any pic info can't be decoded, then that info is discarded. This is why Denon need to issue firmware updates to add support for HLG "pass-through" and dolby vision "pass through". Each and every time something new is present in the signal, it needs to be explicitly added to the "decode-repackage-transmit" routines.

"Pass through" is a misnomer, because there is no bypass: only "decode-repackage-transmit" - whether the AVR adds an on-screen menu, or not. This is why we always put "pass through" in quotation marks. It's not really "pass through". HTH

This is probably why are you not seeing your HDR10Plus signal. Try it with a direct cable, and then try it going through the AVR, and see if there is a difference. (and please let us know the results!)

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post #570 of 581 Old 10-20-2019, 04:30 AM
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Just so you are clear, it is "interfering".

An HDMI port is either decoding or transmitting (it can't do both), so as long as picture and sound are encoded on one cable, the AVR has to decode the stream, separate the audio, and then repackage the picture info back up for transmitting to the TV.

The menu item you are talking about, just selects one input which gets that decode-repackage-transmit process applied to it (with audio not removed), when the receiver is in "standby" (actually powered up partially, doing all of this work and processing). Hence Denon's warning:


If any pic info can't be decoded, then that info is discarded. This is why Denon need to issue firmware updates to add support for HLG "pass-through" and dolby vision "pass through". Each and every time something new is present in the signal, it needs to be explicitly added to the "decode-repackage-transmit" routines.

"Pass through" is a misnomer, because there is no bypass: only "decode-repackage-transmit" - whether the AVR adds an on-screen menu, or not. This is why we always put "pass through" in quotation marks. It's not really "pass through". HTH

This is probably why are you not seeing your HDR10Plus signal. Try it with a direct cable, and then try it going through the AVR, and see if there is a difference. (and please let us know the results!)
mrtickleuk, thank you for the detailed answer. That makes a lot of sense!
I connected the player directly to TV to be sure that the Denon is not the problem, but then I still get the message that HDR10+ is not supported. I will call my dealer tomorrow, maybe it is a known issue with Panasonic.
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