Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 144 Old 07-06-2019, 06:50 AM
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My disk is on the way from Amazon. Will there be any issues playing this on the Xbox One X Blu Ray player? My C9 is pro calibrated (shout out to @jrref ) but I still wanted the disk to play around with.
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post #32 of 144 Old 07-06-2019, 08:04 AM
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Hey all. I have been interested in this disc ever since I first heard about it. I have never owned an S&M disc before and when I discovered them not too long ago I heard this was coming so I waited instead of buying the second edition Blu-Ray.


Here is my big question. I do not have any calibration equipment and don't see myself investing in any such thing anytime soon. Would I benefit from this disc at all if all I am going to do is adjust things by eye? I know that isn't the way to do it, but I assume it's better than nothing.

I have an LG C8 TV.
I would start by reading the Getting Started article from the 2nd edition to see how comfortable you feel. http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...n-benchmark-2/ Then read the rest as well. We are aiming to have the 3rd edition versions on the website starting ~7/20.

Which player are you using with your display?
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post #33 of 144 Old 07-06-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
My disk is on the way from Amazon. Will there be any issues playing this on the Xbox One X Blu Ray player? My C9 is pro calibrated (shout out to @jrref ) but I still wanted the disk to play around with.
Not anymore, they fixed a really nasty bug before the disc went on sale. I gave them a check dsic to repro and fix an issue Tyler found during QC. They fixed within a couple of days, but still have chroma alignment issues they are working on. While they are limited by some Windows pipeline issues, the team cares deeply.
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post #34 of 144 Old 07-06-2019, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Hey all. I have been interested in this disc ever since I first heard about it. I have never owned an S&M disc before and when I discovered them not too long ago I heard this was coming so I waited instead of buying the second edition Blu-Ray.


Here is my big question. I do not have any calibration equipment and don't see myself investing in any such thing anytime soon. Would I benefit from this disc at all if all I am going to do is adjust things by eye? I know that isn't the way to do it, but I assume it's better than nothing.

I have an LG C8 TV.
Short answer is a big YES without question.

Actually, the most useful patterns are for visual inspecttion.


This is for the 2nd edition http://spearsandmunsil.com/2nd-edition-articles/ but the principles and some of the patterns discussed are similar on the new UHD disc.
Thank you for the reply. I admit I was expecting the answer to be No that I wouldn’t really benefit from This disc but you surprised me. I read the articles as suggested a few posts below and now I am excited for this more than ever. I decided I am going to pick this up.

Very much looking forward to the user guides. I know they will help me a lot.
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post #35 of 144 Old 07-06-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Hey all. I have been interested in this disc ever since I first heard about it. I have never owned an S&M disc before and when I discovered them not too long ago I heard this was coming so I waited instead of buying the second edition Blu-Ray.


Here is my big question. I do not have any calibration equipment and don't see myself investing in any such thing anytime soon. Would I benefit from this disc at all if all I am going to do is adjust things by eye? I know that isn't the way to do it, but I assume it's better than nothing.

I have an LG C8 TV.
I would start by reading the Getting Started article from the 2nd edition to see how comfortable you feel. http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...n-benchmark-2/ Then read the rest as well. We are aiming to have the 3rd edition versions on the website starting ~7/20.

Which player are you using with your display?
I have a Sony x800m2 Player.
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post #36 of 144 Old 07-07-2019, 03:38 AM
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Bought this disc, and I'm hoping to use it for more than evaluation... I've got some basic settings for my Sony Z9D from the forum, but I'm hoping this disc will allow me to improve the picture quality without resorting to expensive calibration gear.. am I being too optimistic?
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post #37 of 144 Old 07-07-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Bought this disc, and I'm hoping to use it for more than evaluation... I've got some basic settings for my Sony Z9D from the forum, but I'm hoping this disc will allow me to improve the picture quality without resorting to expensive calibration gear.. am I being too optimistic?
Probably. The Z9D will give you a great picture OOTB if you use Custom or CinemaPro PMs. With the Sony's all you need to do is tweak SDR since HDR is derived from SDR. The disk will help you fine tune SDR on your set and you can see how well your set performs in HDR and where any limitations are.
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post #38 of 144 Old 07-07-2019, 07:37 AM
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I don't think you are being too optimistic.

I've long maintained that any disc that we publish has to be easy enough to use that I can actually use it and that's quite a low bar!

However, it wouldn't hurt to wait a few weeks for the Basic Setup guide to be posted online (as soon as its done). Otherwise, most of the info is online or in this thread, but not in one handy reference.

With the transition from SDR to HDR happening asymmetrically, one of the crucial evaluations is making sure that you are seeing what you are supposed to be seeing to the extent that your hardware allows. Is something in the chain causing clipping? Is something kicking everything over from 10 bit to 8 bit? What are picture enhancements doing to the picture? You can do these things and set the brightness and color temperature and evaluate the color saturation and tone mapping without any instrumentation.

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Bought this disc, and I'm hoping to use it for more than evaluation... I've got some basic settings for my Sony Z9D from the forum, but I'm hoping this disc will allow me to improve the picture quality without resorting to expensive calibration gear.. am I being too optimistic?
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post #39 of 144 Old 07-07-2019, 08:24 AM
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That's very reassuring and thank you!
I actually bought three copies... two more for my mates, and they are using projectors. Actually I also have your BR disc too, so I guess I could be called a fan of your products..
Shall I keep the forum suggested Sony Z9D settings, then I'll await your instructions as to how I should proceed. Cheers!
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post #40 of 144 Old 07-07-2019, 09:52 AM
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For color, the blue filters that came with the BD versions are no longer offered because they don't work reliably or predictably -- or at all -- with HDR.

You'd either be using a blue filter/blue only mode on the set (many displays have it, but many don't) or you'd be looking at the reference content once you've dialed in the other settings to ensure that the colors are naturalistic. That's where properly shot and graded reference material, like the montage, is very useful. For example, you wouldn't want to adjust color with Man of Steel, and lots of content created specifically as eye candy pushes the saturation and crushes the blacks. I've been guilty of this myself when underwater corals could look a tad more colorful, for example.

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That's very reassuring and thank you!
I actually bought three copies... two more for my mates, and they are using projectors. Actually I also have your BR disc too, so I guess I could be called a fan of your products..
Shall I keep the forum suggested Sony Z9D settings, then I'll await your instructions as to how I should proceed. Cheers!

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post #41 of 144 Old 07-07-2019, 10:06 AM
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Any explanation as for why the lg oled are clipping red with hdr?

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post #42 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 07:31 AM
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Any explanation as for why the lg oled are clipping red with hdr?
Short answer is no. Longer answer is that it is not limited to the LG OLED.
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post #43 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Bought this disc, and I'm hoping to use it for more than evaluation... I've got some basic settings for my Sony Z9D from the forum, but I'm hoping this disc will allow me to improve the picture quality without resorting to expensive calibration gear.. am I being too optimistic?
Right now it is going to show you a lot more warts than anything. HDR displays have plenty of warts to show. The good news is that Sony, LG and others have the disc now and will hopefully make improvements with future generation displays, which does not help you at the moment.

Don and I are presenting the disc at an upcoming meeting to the display manufactures on 7/17. Then another presentation to the studios a couple of weeks later.

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post #44 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 09:39 AM
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Got the disk on Sunday. Quick question that I did not find discussed in any of your online documentation. How do you determine what Luminance/NIT level to chose? As I have noticed each level seems to change my Contrast level setting.

I have a Sony XBR-85x900F. I have read this set delivers about 800-900 nits. Is there a way to use the test patterns to make an actual set performance evaluation/conclusion?

Appreciate any assistance.

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post #45 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 10:34 AM
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Any explanation as for why the lg oled are clipping red with hdr?

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I think it's due to the extra white pixel LG OLED panels have that fully illuminates when light levels are above 400 nits. This means that red, green, and blue aren't meeting their targets for those luminances, therefore showing clipping in those patterns. It's likely that they are all clipping to an extent, with red the worst.

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post #46 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 11:04 AM
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Got the disk on Sunday. Quick question that I did not find discussed in any of your online documentation. How do you determine what Luminance/NIT level to chose? As I have noticed each level seems to change my Contrast level setting.

I have a Sony XBR-85x900F. I have read this set delivers about 800-900 nits. Is there a way to use the test patterns to make an actual set performance evaluation/conclusion?

Appreciate any assistance.
We default to 1000 and I would stick with that. Each version of the contrast pattern goes up to the code value that represents that nit level.

cd/m^2 (nits) to 10-bit code values
10,000 cd/m^2 – 940
4,000 cd/m^2 – 855
2,000 cd/m^2 – 789
1,000 cd/m^2 – 723
600 cd/m^2 – 674
The code value you will see in the contrast pattern is the above -1. e.g. The 1000 (default) goes up to 722. The background behind it is actually 723. The center of the ramp is also 723.

I did not want to include brightness or contrast patterns as they really should not be touched in HDR due to tone mapping. But, I have seen Sony clip highlights on Dolby Vision with the montage.

Content is usually mastered on 1000 or 4000 nit displays. So I would use 1000 on yours and look at 4000 and see if you see the boxes.

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post #47 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
I think it's due to the extra white pixel LG OLED panels have that fully illuminates when light levels are above 400 nits. This means that red, green, and blue aren't meeting their targets for those luminances, therefore showing clipping in those patterns. It's likely that they are all clipping to an extent, with red the worst.
The Cr high box has been seen to clip on some LCDs too. The nit level of the Cr box is very high, beyond what displays are capable of today. The color space conversion section only works on SDR displays today. We may need true 2020 / 10K displays before it actually works on the HDR version of the pattern.
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post #48 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 02:08 PM
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We default to 1000 and I would stick with that. Each version of the contrast pattern goes up to the code value that represents that nit level.



cd/m^2 (nits) to 10-bit code values
10,000 cd/m^2 – 940

4,000 cd/m^2 – 855

2,000 cd/m^2 – 789

1,000 cd/m^2 – 723

600 cd/m^2 – 674


The code value you will see in the contrast pattern is the above -1. e.g. The 1000 (default) goes up to 722. The background behind it is actually 723. The center of the ramp is also 723.



I did not want to include brightness or contrast patterns as they really should not be touched in HDR due to tone mapping. But, I have seen Sony clip highlights on Dolby Vision with the montage.



Content is usually mastered on 1000 or 4000 nit displays. So I would use 1000 on yours and look at 4000 and see if you see the boxes.
Is this assuming the display manufacturer has properly set contrast? I really don't believe Vizio has ever done so. The Z9F clips white above 7000 nits, with a peak nits calibrated of about 1500 nits(Based on numbers from Shoman94).

Vizio 2018 PQ models clip white at 2000 nits, peak nits are said to be 2300 nits or more on a 10% window. Something is definitely wrong here.

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post #49 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 02:31 PM
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Is this assuming the display manufacturer has properly set contrast? I really don't believe Vizio has ever done so. The Z9F clips white above 7000 nits, with a peak nits calibrated of about 1500 nits(Based on numbers from Shoman94).

Vizio 2018 PQ models clip white at 2000 nits, peak nits are said to be 2300 nits or more on a 10% window. Something is definitely wrong here.

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Lowering contrast will lower the nit capability / output of the display. Static tone mapping is usually done through a LUT, based on the default values of brightness and contrast. Changing either may cause tone mapping to behave in an unexpected way. Not sure if dynamic tone mapping works the same.

I know that LG contrast does not impact clipping in HDR mode and is set to 100 and should be left there. e.g. On the B7, with dynamic tone mapping disabled, some boxes clip on the 1000 nit contrast pattern. When you enable dynamic tone mapping, they all return. You can see the same thing on the HDR Montage 1000 nit version. Horse scene is blown out with static, but everything is present with dynamic. And this is the 1000 nit version.

On the Sony, contrast does impact clipping. You can display the tone mapping ramp and pull contrast down and watch every modulation step return up to 10,000, but I would not do that.

Contrast is going to be display dependent in HDR mode and really needs to be carefully evaluated on every display. It is something we are looking at for the novice manual we are working on. Though, we will have to limited to manufacturer and display technology. e.g. Sony OLED and Sony LCD. Not every model in both.

And to complicate things further, it seems that some displays HDR settings are derived from SDR settings. So you should touch SDR first and then HDR.

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post #50 of 144 Old 07-08-2019, 08:10 PM
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First the footage on this disk is beautiful!
I only ran a few patterns but this thing is extensive. On the 1,000 cd/m^2 – 723 ramp my C9 displays bars up to 718 then falls off. This is with DTM off. This is a normal reading?



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post #51 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 05:08 AM
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Stacey, thank you SO much for putting a dedicated Sync-One2 test pattern on the disc.

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post #52 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
We default to 1000 and I would stick with that. Each version of the contrast pattern goes up to the code value that represents that nit level.

cd/m^2 (nits) to 10-bit code values
10,000 cd/m^2 – 940
4,000 cd/m^2 – 855
2,000 cd/m^2 – 789
1,000 cd/m^2 – 723
600 cd/m^2 – 674
The code value you will see in the contrast pattern is the above -1. e.g. The 1000 (default) goes up to 722. The background behind it is actually 723. The center of the ramp is also 723.

I did not want to include brightness or contrast patterns as they really should not be touched in HDR due to tone mapping. But, I have seen Sony clip highlights on Dolby Vision with the montage.

Content is usually mastered on 1000 or 4000 nit displays. So I would use 1000 on yours and look at 4000 and see if you see the boxes.
Hi sspears,

Thanks for the reply and answers. I eagerly await the instructions/guide/definitions, documentation so I can make sense of the tools available. Right now I am just confused. Exactly when do you expect to have these Documents published for the "Novice" masses ? Must admit I am a little disappointed I bought a product that has no manual or instructions.

Is it possible you can post a copy of the "Draft" documents on your web page? That would be very helpful.
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post #53 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
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First the footage on this disk is beautiful!
I only ran a few patterns but this thing is extensive. On the 1,000 cd/m^2 – 723 ramp my C9 displays bars up to 718 then falls off. This is with DTM off. This is a normal reading?
That is more than the B7 shows with DTM off. With it on, everything returns.

Since you have C9, try this.
1. Go to the color space eval pattern
2. Look at the PQ tracking section.
3. Switch between cinema home and cinema. (w/ and w/o DTM)

What you will see is Cinema mode tracks PQ better than Cinema home. The blinking checkerboards should blend with the gray background. The blinking should be subtle to invisible.

I would use DTM myself.
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post #54 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi sspears,

Thanks for the reply and answers. I eagerly await the instructions/guide/definitions, documentation so I can make sense of the tools available. Right now I am just confused. Exactly when do you expect to have these Documents published for the "Novice" masses ? Must admit I am a little disappointed I bought a product that has no manual or instructions.

Is it possible you can post a copy of the "Draft" documents on your web page? That would be very helpful.
The manual is being written by a 3rd party. We are hoping end of July for that. The current 2nd edition articles should cover 90% of what you need to do with HDR and 99% with SDR. I say 99% because the current articles list 8-bit numbers vs. 10-bit now on the patterns. The color space eval pattern also has new elements.

Feel free to ask questions on this thread and I will answer them for you. No question is too small. It helps us focus our effort on the docs too.

1. Updates to 2nd edition articles coming by 7/22
2. Novice manual by end of July
3. More detailed manual for advanced patterns by fall

Number 1 will simply be minor updates to the current articles (will be under 3rd edition) since they cover most of it already.

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post #55 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 08:09 AM
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Well, guys and girls,
I found this disc on the Amazon and put it in my shopping cart, but have not pulled the trigger for it yet.
BECAUSE,
reading this thread is like trying to read GREEK to me!!!!!!
Yes, I hate to admit that. I bought a lovely LG OLED 65 C8 with Pioneer LX500 player and have tried my best to get the settings right, from all the online info I can find. And I am just getting more and more confused. Bewildered.
OK, I will admit that I have a quite decent picture now, especially when I play a 4K blu ray, more so when it is native 4K and more so when it is Dolby Vision.
Amazing looking really. But I don't have confidence that I have things really set right, dialed in correctly.
Please don't tell me to find a professional calibrator, I live in the far North of Thailand and that is NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!!!
So a disc with simple instructions, starting at the beginning, NOOB proof, step by step what to do to get my new set really set up properly, that would be worth way over the asking price here.
Problem is, from the sound of things, this is not what is being offered, and not sure people who speak the lingo I am trying my best to read here, can even comprehend where someone like me is even coming from.
KISS, PLEASE give some instructions and KEEP IT SIMPLE. This is not rocket science.
Thanks, and God Bless,
Wayne
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post #56 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 08:23 AM
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Ahhh! But it IS science.


SCIENCE! She blinded me with SCIENCE!

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post #57 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 09:27 AM
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Got the disc yesterday and have been playing around with it. New to any kind of calibration and thought this disc could be a good starting point. I am looking forward to the documentation.

Is there a test on the disc I can use to detect Black Crush?
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post #58 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
That is more than the B7 shows with DTM off. With it on, everything returns.

Since you have C9, try this.
1. Go to the color space eval pattern
2. Look at the PQ tracking section.
3. Switch between cinema home and cinema. (w/ and w/o DTM)

What you will see is Cinema mode tracks PQ better than Cinema home. The blinking checkerboards should blend with the gray background. The blinking should be subtle to invisible.

I would use DTM myself.
Stacy, interesting, on this set I calibrated HDR using the new CalMAN process where after the 20 pt HDR calibration, the HDR peak luminance is measured, the value selected in CM, CM then calculates new tone mapping curves based on the peak luminance value of the specific panel then loads it to the C9. The EOTF tracks perfectly and the end result is more near black detail vs DTM. I'll use your disk to see how it looks when i'm back at VE this week.

John
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post #59 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Stacy, interesting, on this set I calibrated HDR using the new CalMAN process where after the 20 pt HDR calibration, the HDR peak luminance is measured, the value selected in CM, CM then calculates new tone mapping curves based on the peak luminance value of the specific panel then loads it to the C9. The EOTF tracks perfectly and the end result is more near black detail vs DTM. I'll use your disk to see how it looks when i'm back at VE this week.

John
DTM will work with your CalMAN calibration, not in place of it.
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post #60 of 144 Old 07-09-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Got the disc yesterday and have been playing around with it. New to any kind of calibration and thought this disc could be a good starting point. I am looking forward to the documentation.

Is there a test on the disc I can use to detect Black Crush?
Which display do you have?

The brightness pattern has a ramp that goes from +4% down to -4% and the dynamic range low pattern has even more granularity so you can see every code value blinking from 65 up to around 100. On the ramp portion, there is a big square above and below the ramp on both sides. That is where code value 64 is. So you should see the ramp slowly get dark down until it reaches the square. If the ramp is gone sooner, its crushed.

The interesting question is what should the display do with information below its capability. HDR uses an absolute curve where each code value should represent a specific brightness level. For the top end, tone mapping is done. No one really agrees on what should be done on the bottom end.

0.005 black is code value 77. Not many LCDs can go that black, certainly not global dimming. True black is at code value 64.

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