Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 481Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 922 Old 11-21-2019, 02:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Here are some images from the AJA analyzer. Tyler and I captured these last weekend as a proof of concept. We played the HDR10 10,000 / BT.2020 version off the disc. RGB out of OPPO was used since I have measured it and know how it works. The analyzer was in gamut warning mode, which is why the image is B&W with orange and red pixels. Gamut was set to warn when pixels go beyond P3. Luminance warning was set when content goes over 4,000 nits. We also had the GUI of the analyzer set to HDR, which is why it looks washed out. The timecode is at 00:00:00:00 because the OPPO does not output timecode nor is it embedded in the HEVC encode.

There are several different thresholds when to alert and those will be tuned for the version we end up using on the disc.

OPPO BDP-203 (RGB) -> AJA Analyzer -> AJA Io 4K Plus (ProRes 4:2:2)

Peacock:


Seattle Skyline:
mrtickleuk likes this.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 922 Old 11-21-2019, 06:27 PM
Member
 
lukewayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Hey Stacey,

I just wanted to let you know I went to Canon today to see if the repairs made to my projector were successful, and brought along my S&M 4k Benchmark disk. The projector repair tech was blown away at how useful and well done it was, and it made it very easy for me to show him the various issues. I think he ordered his own copy as soon as I walked out of the door.

Anyway, thanks again for making such a valuable well thought out tool!

Emotiva RMC-1 | Emotiva XPA DR3 | Emotiva XPA-8 Gen 3
7.1.4 - Polk LSiM707 (front 3) - LSiM702F/X (surround) - 265-LS (atmos)
Canon 4K600Z | Seymour Screen Excellence Trim TB-130-NEO
Panasonic DP-UB9000 | Oppo UDP-203 |Xbox One X - PS3
lukewayne is online now  
post #633 of 922 Old 11-25-2019, 08:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rickardl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,228
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 112
I got a panasonic DP-UB820 downconverting 4K to a Samsung Plasma 64F8500 (1080p) and got a question regarding color.
The plasma has a blue mode only and I get different results from 1) the old HD S&M benchmark and 2) the SD patterns on the new UHD disc and 3) the UHD patterns on the new UHD disc.
Which should I trust for watching 4K movies?
I assumed that if the downconversion is done correctly, I should get no difference from 1) and 3).

Last edited by rickardl; 11-25-2019 at 10:39 AM.
rickardl is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #634 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 05:05 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Stacey,
In the Getting started documentation I see this recommendation, "For HDR, don't change the backlight setting". Can you please expand on the rationale behind this. Is it so that the light output (nits) for a given scene is accurate? I ask because I often see others recommend setting backlight to the maximum value for HDR. Thanks.
brygalt_hdr is offline  
post #635 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 07:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by brygalt_hdr View Post
Stacey,
In the Getting started documentation I see this recommendation, "For HDR, don't change the backlight setting". Can you please expand on the rationale behind this. Is it so that the light output (nits) for a given scene is accurate? I ask because I often see others recommend setting backlight to the maximum value for HDR. Thanks.
Backlight is usually auto set to 100% for HDR as you say and that is where it should be left. Are you seeing a different value for HDR other than max?

OLED light is an interesting one. On a previous generation of LG OLED, it was a lower value for Dolby Vision and maxed for HDR10. Turns out in Dolby Vision it was used for something else (mid tones), which is why the control was lower.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #636 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 07:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
I got a panasonic DP-UB820 downconverting 4K to a Samsung Plasma 64F8500 (1080p) and got a question regarding color.
The plasma has a blue mode only and I get different results from 1) the old HD S&M benchmark and 2) the SD patterns on the new UHD disc and 3) the UHD patterns on the new UHD disc.
Which should I trust for watching 4K movies?
I assumed that if the downconversion is done correctly, I should get no difference from 1) and 3).
Just wanted to confirm some things you posted.

1. 2nd Edition? The Color and Tint pattern under the first video menu?
2. There are no SD patterns, perhaps you meant SDR?
3. Here you mention UHD patterns, so just want to confirm the difference between 2 and 3. Maybe you mean SDR in 2 and HDR in 3? Everything is UHD except the HD scaling patterns.

The color and tint pattern under the video setup menu (SDR 709) has the same pixel values as the color and tint pattern on the 2nd edition. Only thing different is the resolution. If you are seeing a difference, then the player or display is making a change.

The HDR version of the color and tint pattern is different as it is HDR. (58% stimulus) Those will be tone mapped by the player to your Plasma since it is SDR only. They are also 2020 vs. 709.

Do you have the HDR optimizer enabled?

The original plan was that all UHD would be 2020. However, first to market decided to use 709 for SDR and so most have stuck with it. In the end, there is a flag in the bitstream. Assuming it is set correctly and passed to the block that does the color space conversion, then it should not matter, but that is a big IF on passing the flag all the way through.

For HD, often they used logic. If the resolution was <= 576, then use 601 else use 709. Setting the flags in SD and HD was optional and rarely set.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #637 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 10:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rickardl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,228
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Just wanted to confirm some things you posted.

1. 2nd Edition? The Color and Tint pattern under the first video menu?
Yes.
Quote:
2. There are no SD patterns, perhaps you meant SDR?
Yes, sorry, the "SDR BT.709" pattern "Color and Tint.
Quote:
3. Here you mention UHD patterns, so just want to confirm the difference between 2 and 3. Maybe you mean SDR in 2 and HDR in 3? Everything is UHD except the HD scaling patterns.
Yes.
Quote:
The color and tint pattern under the video setup menu (SDR 709) has the same pixel values as the color and tint pattern on the 2nd edition. Only thing different is the resolution. If you are seeing a difference, then the player or display is making a change.
Actually, after resetting all player settings, I do get the same value of my color setting on the TV, 50, for both 1) and 2).
Quote:
The HDR version of the color and tint pattern is different as it is HDR. (58% stimulus) Those will be tone mapped by the player to your Plasma since it is SDR only. They are also 2020 vs. 709.
Do you have the HDR optimizer enabled?
For 3), the HDR optimizer makes a very very slight change. I end up with the color setting to 47 on the TV which is not good since
that is the wrong setting for watching 1080p content on the same player. But I now have set the player's UHD setting "Colour Adustment->Colour Saturation" to -2 which seems like a compromise so that I can have the same Color setting on the TV regardless of which type of disc I am playing.

Does it makes sense? To me, it seems the player does not tone map correctly.

Now, here is a follow up: if I change DR Conversion Adjustment and/or Tone Curve (White) etc in the player, it throws up the color setting (viewed in blue mode) again, should I try to compensate that too with the Colour Saturation or skip it?

Last edited by rickardl; 11-26-2019 at 10:54 AM.
rickardl is offline  
post #638 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 10:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Backlight is usually auto set to 100% for HDR as you say and that is where it should be left. Are you seeing a different value for HDR other than max?

OLED light is an interesting one. On a previous generation of LG OLED, it was a lower value for Dolby Vision and maxed for HDR10. Turns out in Dolby Vision it was used for something else (mid tones), which is why the control was lower.
My Samsung NU7100 retains unique settings for HDR and SDR for each input (HDMI1, 2, 3). When I watch HDR content the TV does not auto change the backlight setting to max, it stays wherever I set it to last. my original question was just to clarify if you were recommending that I leave it at the default value (similar to your suggestion to leave contrast in the default setting for HDR) or set it to max value [45 is my backlight default, 50 is max]. Seems like you are suggesting to max out backlight in HDR. thanks for the reply.
brygalt_hdr is offline  
post #639 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 11:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
Yes.
Yes, sorry, the "SDR BT.709" pattern "Color and Tint.
Yes.
Actually, after resetting all player settings, I do get the same value of my color setting on the TV, 50, for both 1) and 2).
The HDR optimizer makes a very very slight change. I end up with the color setting to 47 on the TV which is not good since
that is the wrong setting for watching 1080p content on the same player. But I now have set the player's UHD setting "Colour Adustment->Colour Saturation" to -2 which seems like a compromise so that I can have the same Color setting on the TV regardless of which type of disc I am playing.

Does it makes sense? To me, it seems the player does not tone map correctly.


Now, here is a follow up: if I change DR Conversion Adjustment and/or Tone Curve (White) etc in the player, it throws up the color setting (viewed in blue mode) again, should I try to compensate that too with the Colour Saturation or skip it?
There is no "correct" way to tone map since there is no standard. When I buy an Ultra HD disc, I use the Blu-ray version for my SDR projector, not the tone mapped HDR version. Not happy with current HDR to SDR tone mapping. I don't have Atmos / DTS:X at home yet, so I am not missing out on the immersive audio on the UHD that is not on the HD disc.

The HDR Optimizer has both good and bad qualities. I think it does really well not shifting hue when it tone maps, but it also has some banding when it tone maps. Tone mapping seems to be equal parts art and science.

In addition to the tone mapping, you also have the color space twist from 2020 to 709, which is not difficult as long as you go to RGB first. I don't know if they expected customers to use it for conversion to SDR, but possibly.

Assuming the color control you are adjusting in the player is similar to a color / tint control on the TV, then that sounds fine. Never a fan of adjusting picture controls in a player, but in your case not much choice. Does this impact HD discs on the player or just UHD discs?

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #640 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 11:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by brygalt_hdr View Post
My Samsung NU7100 retains unique settings for HDR and SDR for each input (HDMI1, 2, 3). When I watch HDR content the TV does not auto change the backlight setting to max, it stays wherever I set it to last. my original question was just to clarify if you were recommending that I leave it at the default value (similar to your suggestion to leave contrast in the default setting for HDR) or set it to max value [45 is my backlight default, 50 is max]. Seems like you are suggesting to max out backlight in HDR. thanks for the reply.
In SDR, I lower the backlight to hit 100 nits. For HDR, it has always been maxed and I don't mess with it. I would need to double check the QLED, which is the last Samsung LCD I used. If you reset the picture controls, does backlight go to max for HDR vs. your previous setting?

Backlight is not a normal picture control like contrast, for example. Contrast actually alters the video signal, which is why a visual test pattern works. Backlight does not make changes to the video pipeline. This is why there is no visual pattern for backlight. On SDR, you use a 100% window pattern and then a light meter.

The OLED light is some crazy high value by default for SDR. 25 is about where it needs to be for 100 nits. Of course, there are those that like SDR at 200-300 nits and so they turn it up.
AnotherDude and mrtickleuk like this.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #641 of 922 Old 11-26-2019, 11:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rickardl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,228
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Assuming the color control you are adjusting in the player is similar to a color / tint control on the TV, then that sounds fine. Never a fan of adjusting picture controls in a player, but in your case not much choice. Does this impact HD discs on the player or just UHD discs?
Just UHD discs which is why it works for me. There are 3 different (1, 2 and Default) sets of adjustment settings for UHD discs and there are 3 additional sets of adjustments for BD/HD discs so the Saturation setting for HD/BD discs is still 0. Actually, it seems there are 3 different sets for SD discs also!

Last edited by rickardl; 11-26-2019 at 11:25 AM.
rickardl is offline  
post #642 of 922 Old 12-08-2019, 08:22 PM
Member
 
Oscarilbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Hi guys...
Love the newest calibration disc, but its also a bit frustrating since I bought it mainly to calibrate my Projector’s HDR mode to my grey screen, only to find there’s no recommendation to tweak almost anything. I used it to get brightness right but I’m having now trouble for color. And don’t get me wrong, I knew going from a white screen to a grey screen would meant some compromises, but I think there’s room to improve color too.

It still looks great but in reality colors have been somewhat muted in comparison, less vivid and punchy, which is natural because the grey screen, but I hoped I could fix that with the Spears and Munsil HDR calibration disc, but havent found anything that helps since blue filters are needed but I think those work only for SDR.

As I said, thanks to brightness tweaking details are great now, but in dark scenes tones are too dark, and I think there’s some room to improvement there. My projector has RGB gain and offset options in the Color temperature section, I guess that’s where it lies the key to up color brightness??




Here's a direct example; 1st image I took it when the screen was white. 2nd image now is grey and of course after some calibration with brightness contrast. Both in HDR mode, 4k bluray disc. I know the difference is minimal and understandable, but I think colors could be a little clearer with some tweaks.


Any tips?

Thanks in advance

Last edited by Oscarilbo; 12-09-2019 at 06:37 AM.
Oscarilbo is online now  
post #643 of 922 Old 12-09-2019, 08:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscarilbo View Post
Hi guys...
Love the newest calibration disc, but its also a bit frustrating since I bought it mainly to calibrate my Projector’s HDR mode to my grey screen, only to find there’s no recommendation to tweak almost anything. I used it to get brightness right but I’m having now trouble for color. And don’t get me wrong, I knew going from a white screen to a grey screen would meant some compromises, but I think there’s room to improve color too.

It still looks great but in reality colors have been somewhat muted in comparison, less vivid and punchy, which is natural because the grey screen, but I hoped I could fix that with the Spears and Munsil HDR calibration disc, but havent found anything that helps since blue filters are needed but I think those work only for SDR.

As I said, thanks to brightness tweaking details are great now, but in dark scenes tones are too dark, and I think there’s some room to improvement there. My projector has RGB gain and offset options in the Color temperature section, I guess that’s where it lies the key to up color brightness??

Here's a direct example; 1st image I took it when the screen was white. 2nd image now is grey and of course after some calibration with brightness contrast. Both in HDR mode, 4k bluray disc. I know the difference is minimal and understandable, but I think colors could be a little clearer with some tweaks.


Any tips?

Thanks in advance
Thank you for purchasing the disc.

There is a lot of confusion from everyone when it comes to what the color and tint controls do. First, color does not adjust color What is adjusts is the color decoder. Specifically it alters the 3x3 matrix used to convert YCbCr from disc into RGB for viewing. That is it. This is a fixed matrix. There is no reason for a color control as this should not change.

You may wonder why there is a color and tint control on a TV. The reason is history and perceived value. Back in the days of CRTs, the color decoder was made up of analog parts and they would drift over time. The color control would allow you to compensate for the drift. With modern displays, this is not needed at all but is included because if it were missing, people would complain it is missing.

Your issue is grayscale / white balance / color temp. With a projection system, the color on screen is not only impacted by the screen material, but also the room. Light bounces off the screen, on to the walls and some of that will contaminate the screen. To fix this, you need to adjust the grayscale. To do this, you need to use window test patterns in combination with a colorimeter and software. This is not something you can really do by eye.

A 1D and 3D LUT can further improve the results of your projector. Which projector are you using? Boxes like the Lumagen and the upcoming MadVR Envy will do a great job to calibrate projectors. They also have tone mapping for HDR that is most likely better than what is in the projector. (or most consumer TVs) They may cost as much or more than your projector though.

The 2-point (bias and gain) will allow you to adjust the bottom and top end. Since you are only adjusting two points, it may not be uniform throughout the range. This is where the LUTs make further improvements.
mrtickleuk likes this.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #644 of 922 Old 12-09-2019, 08:44 AM
Member
 
Oscarilbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Thank you for purchasing the disc.

There is a lot of confusion from everyone when it comes to what the color and tint controls do. First, color does not adjust color What is adjusts is the color decoder. Specifically it alters the 3x3 matrix used to convert YCbCr from disc into RGB for viewing. That is it. This is a fixed matrix. There is no reason for a color control as this should not change.

You may wonder why there is a color and tint control on a TV. The reason is history and perceived value. Back in the days of CRTs, the color decoder was made up of analog parts and they would drift over time. The color control would allow you to compensate for the drift. With modern displays, this is not needed at all but is included because if it were missing, people would complain it is missing.

Your issue is grayscale / white balance / color temp. With a projection system, the color on screen is not only impacted by the screen material, but also the room. Light bounces off the screen, on to the walls and some of that will contaminate the screen. To fix this, you need to adjust the grayscale. To do this, you need to use window test patterns in combination with a colorimeter and software. This is not something you can really do by eye.

A 1D and 3D LUT can further improve the results of your projector. Which projector are you using? Boxes like the Lumagen and the upcoming MadVR Envy will do a great job to calibrate projectors. They also have tone mapping for HDR that is most likely better than what is in the projector. (or most consumer TVs) They may cost as much or more than your projector though.

The 2-point (bias and gain) will allow you to adjust the bottom and top end. Since you are only adjusting two points, it may not be uniform throughout the range. This is where the LUTs make further improvements.
Thank you...
I'm using a BenQ W1700M which is the newest "corrected" version of the W1700/HT2550 model. I don't think I can afford more equipment at this point (maybe later) I was hoping to find a way to improve color clarity at least.
Again, it looks fine enough, but it makes me regret a little bit I changed my screen color. Although the absence of better blacks was a bit distracting since, as you correctly said it, my walls and celling are clear and light bounces a lot.
Oscarilbo is online now  
post #645 of 922 Old 12-09-2019, 08:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscarilbo View Post
Thank you...
I'm using a BenQ W1700M which is the newest "corrected" version of the W1700/HT2550 model. I don't think I can afford more equipment at this point (maybe later) I was hoping to find a way to improve color clarity at least.
Again, it looks fine enough, but it makes me regret a little bit I changed my screen color. Although the absence of better blacks was a bit distracting since, as you correctly said it, my walls and celling are clear and light bounces a lot.
Your eyes will adjust to the screen material change. Which screen did you purchase? I have a .6 gain DaLite screen from years ago. It was the JKP branded version.

As long as the gray material is neutral, it should not introduce a color shift, should just be dimmer. Either way, the grayscale window patterns with software and a colorimeter are what you need. Or someone local that has them.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #646 of 922 Old 12-09-2019, 10:00 AM
Member
 
Oscarilbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Your eyes will adjust to the screen material change. Which screen did you purchase? I have a .6 gain DaLite screen from years ago. It was the JKP branded version.

As long as the gray material is neutral, it should not introduce a color shift, should just be dimmer. Either way, the grayscale window patterns with software and a colorimeter are what you need. Or someone local that has them.
Thank you SSpears. I painted my pull down screen actually. With paint "designed" for projectors of course. I If one day a get my hands on one of those I will calibrate then. Thank you very much.
Oscarilbo is online now  
post #647 of 922 Old 12-10-2019, 09:34 AM
Member
 
Oscarilbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscarilbo View Post
Hi guys...
Love the newest calibration disc, but its also a bit frustrating since I bought it mainly to calibrate my Projector’s HDR mode to my grey screen, only to find there’s no recommendation to tweak almost anything. I used it to get brightness right but I’m having now trouble for color. And don’t get me wrong, I knew going from a white screen to a grey screen would meant some compromises, but I think there’s room to improve color too.

It still looks great but in reality colors have been somewhat muted in comparison, less vivid and punchy, which is natural because the grey screen, but I hoped I could fix that with the Spears and Munsil HDR calibration disc, but havent found anything that helps since blue filters are needed but I think those work only for SDR.

As I said, thanks to brightness tweaking details are great now, but in dark scenes tones are too dark, and I think there’s some room to improvement there. My projector has RGB gain and offset options in the Color temperature section, I guess that’s where it lies the key to up color brightness??




Here's a direct example; 1st image I took it when the screen was white. 2nd image now is grey and of course after some calibration with brightness contrast. Both in HDR mode, 4k bluray disc. I know the difference is minimal and understandable, but I think colors could be a little clearer with some tweaks.


Any tips?
Hi again, Sspears. I was thinking something; You may cannot tell from the first picture, but the main reason I changed my screen color from white to grey, is that brightness was so much that light bounced in my walls and ceiling not only directly back to te screen but the room was as lit as it there were lights everywhere and windows opened (which actually I have not in that room). My walls and ceiling are a very clear BEIGE (almost a very clear yellow). I have had not near the same problem now with my grey screen; less light bouncing and much darker room, and of course, less washout images. So, could that been affecting the color tone of my screen at that time making it look a bit warmer than should?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Thank you for purchasing the disc.

There is a lot of confusion from everyone when it comes to what the color and tint controls do. First, color does not adjust color What is adjusts is the color decoder. Specifically it alters the 3x3 matrix used to convert YCbCr from disc into RGB for viewing. That is it. This is a fixed matrix. There is no reason for a color control as this should not change.

You may wonder why there is a color and tint control on a TV. The reason is history and perceived value. Back in the days of CRTs, the color decoder was made up of analog parts and they would drift over time. The color control would allow you to compensate for the drift. With modern displays, this is not needed at all but is included because if it were missing, people would complain it is missing.

Your issue is grayscale / white balance / color temp. With a projection system, the color on screen is not only impacted by the screen material, but also the room. Light bounces off the screen, on to the walls and some of that will contaminate the screen. To fix this, you need to adjust the grayscale. To do this, you need to use window test patterns in combination with a colorimeter and software. This is not something you can really do by eye.

A 1D and 3D LUT can further improve the results of your projector. Which projector are you using? Boxes like the Lumagen and the upcoming MadVR Envy will do a great job to calibrate projectors. They also have tone mapping for HDR that is most likely better than what is in the projector. (or most consumer TVs) They may cost as much or more than your projector though.

The 2-point (bias and gain) will allow you to adjust the bottom and top end. Since you are only adjusting two points, it may not be uniform throughout the range. This is where the LUTs make further improvements.
Also, a separate question... thanks to your advice I've decided not touching any color related setting from HDR mode. But what about basic brightness control? I mean, just about 2-3 bars from a total of 100 with the default being at 50 on HDR mode, leaving it in about 52-53. I did this already and it looked much better since the gray screen crushed shadows in the darker scenes.

Thank you in Advance!

Last edited by Oscarilbo; 12-10-2019 at 11:18 AM.
Oscarilbo is online now  
post #648 of 922 Old 12-16-2019, 06:58 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Hi guys, just wondering I am just your average guy who just bought a new panel sony 65 x900f and have an older panny 58 vt25. Can i use your disks to do my own calibration for both my TVs? Thx for all the great info.

Steve
Federal70 is offline  
post #649 of 922 Old 12-23-2019, 11:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
thoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 981
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked: 132
Can someone point to or list what the Max Mastering Display Luminance metadata value is for each version of the HDR10 demo clips?
thoth is online now  
post #650 of 922 Old 12-24-2019, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
WiFi-Spy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,191
Mentioned: 276 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1912 Post(s)
Liked: 2509
Quote:
Originally Posted by thoth View Post
Can someone point to or list what the Max Mastering Display Luminance metadata value is for each version of the HDR10 demo clips?


They are the same as the MaxCLL.

Tyler Pruitt - Technical Evangelist - for Calman
WiFi-Spy is offline  
post #651 of 922 Old 12-24-2019, 09:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
thoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 981
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
They are the same as the MaxCLL.
Thanks!
thoth is online now  
post #652 of 922 Old 12-24-2019, 09:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,591
Mentioned: 187 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6173 Post(s)
Liked: 2583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscarilbo View Post
My walls and ceiling are a very clear BEIGE (almost a very clear yellow). I have had not near the same problem now with my grey screen; less light bouncing and much darker room, and of course, less washout images. So, could that been affecting the color tone of my screen at that time making it look a bit warmer than should?

Light reflected from walls and ceiling will pollute the screen image, but that would affect black and dark colours far more than white and light colours. Assuming the two posted images correctly reflect what you see (i.e., the colour difference is not due to the camera's auto white balance etc), I would say that your grey screen has a bluish tint, compared with your white screen. This can be easily corrected if you have a colorimter.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #653 of 922 Old 12-27-2019, 12:19 PM
Member
 
Brandensky8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I’m having a hard time with sharpness. Are you supposed to see the 4 patterns at each corner of the screen, or does that mean I have the sharpness sett too high? If I lower it they disappear, but then my images seem blurry. Any help is appreciated, thanks! Sorry I am new to this..
Brandensky8 is offline  
post #654 of 922 Old 12-28-2019, 04:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandensky8 View Post
I’m having a hard time with sharpness. Are you supposed to see the 4 patterns at each corner of the screen, or does that mean I have the sharpness sett too high? If I lower it they disappear, but then my images seem blurry. Any help is appreciated, thanks! Sorry I am new to this..
You should not see those boxes. Means sharpness is too high. It may appear softer, that just means a it is not artificially enhanced.

When you see the boxes, you should also see halos around all the black lines. When those go away, it is correct. If you go too low, it can blur the image.

Which display?
sspears is offline  
post #655 of 922 Old 12-28-2019, 11:41 AM
Member
 
Brandensky8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandensky8 View Post
I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m having a hard time with sharpness. Are you supposed to see the 4 patterns at each corner of the screen, or does that mean I have the sharpness sett too high? If I lower it they disappear, but then my images seem blurry. Any help is appreciated, thanks! Sorry I am new to this..
You should not see those boxes. Means sharpness is too high. It may appear softer, that just means a it is not artificially enhanced.

When you see the boxes, you should also see halos around all the black lines. When those go away, it is correct. If you go too low, it can blur the image.

Which display?
Thanks for the reply! Ok, I will lower it until they disappear. It just doesn’t seem quite as crisp when watching live sports etc. Although maybe it’s my directv feed. My display is a LG SM8600.
Brandensky8 is offline  
post #656 of 922 Old 12-31-2019, 03:59 PM
Member
 
KAZUKI67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Hi,
just got a 4k TV Panasonic GZ950 and was using the disc on a oppo 203 and looking at the geometry patterns. I do not have overscan on but can you tell me if this looks fine.


If you look on the left hand side you do not see the left white line around the edge. On the other pic you not see white edge line on the top and left hand side. I hope i am making sense just looks strange.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20191231_192426.jpg
Views:	56
Size:	1.83 MB
ID:	2662042   Click image for larger version

Name:	20191231_192837.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	1.92 MB
ID:	2662046  
KAZUKI67 is offline  
post #657 of 922 Old 12-31-2019, 04:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
liberator72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Sunny (when it's not raining) Devon, U.K.
Posts: 769
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1031
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAZUKI67 View Post
Hi,
just got a 4k TV Panasonic GZ950 and was using the disc on a oppo 203 and looking at the geometry patterns. I do not have overscan on but can you tell me if this looks fine.


If you look on the left hand side you do not see the left white line around the edge. On the other pic you not see white edge line on the top and left hand side. I hope i am making sense just looks strange.
Does the Panasonic have a Pixel Shift function like the LG OLED's have? I'm sure Panasonic had it on the Plasma back in the day and called it Pixel Orbiter?? It's a screen burn/image retention prevention feature. If so, and it is enabled, that would cause what you are seeing.
Rolls-Royce and KC-Technerd like this.

LG OLED65C9MLB**Denon AVR-X3500H**Focal Sib Evo Atmos 5.1.2**Sky Q UHD**Xbox One X**Panasonic DP-UB820**ATV 4K
Klein K10-A**Jeti 1501**i1D3 OEM**LightSpace HTP**CalMAN Home for LG**DVDO AVLab TPG**HD Fury Integral 2
Ted's Disk & Media Files**S & M HD & UHD HDR Benchmark Disks
liberator72 is offline  
post #658 of 922 Old 12-31-2019, 04:39 PM
Member
 
KAZUKI67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
Does the Panasonic have a Pixel Shift function like the LG OLED's have? I'm sure Panasonic had it on the Plasma back in the day and called it Pixel Orbiter?? It's a screen burn/image retention prevention feature. If so, and it is enabled, that would cause what you are seeing.

Yes you are correct pixel orbiter and i do have that enabled,will check tomorrow by disabling.


Update yes that was the problem thank you.
mrtickleuk and liberator72 like this.

Last edited by KAZUKI67; 01-01-2020 at 02:30 AM.
KAZUKI67 is offline  
post #659 of 922 Old 01-01-2020, 09:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,461
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAZUKI67 View Post
Yes you are correct pixel orbiter and i do have that enabled,will check tomorrow by disabling.


Update yes that was the problem thank you.
The pixel orbiter is to help reduce image retention. I have turned mine off, but I also ensure I don't leave a lot of still images on for a long time and after I use the disc, always run the pixel corrector and live video for the same amount of time I had static images on to correct the image retention.
giomania likes this.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #660 of 922 Old 01-03-2020, 08:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,939
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1932 Post(s)
Liked: 1159
@sspears Is the full bandwidth at the HDMI port necessary for Dolby Vision?

I ask because I noticed that full bandwidth off, the image quality was strikingly more crisp. On, it seemed to negatively affect tone mapping, contrast, and color saturation. HDR10 seem to need full bandwidth turned on.

Sent from my LGMP450 using Tapatalk
DisplayCalNoob is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Tags
s&m manual

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off