Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #631 of 641 Old 11-21-2019, 03:24 PM
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Here are some images from the AJA analyzer. Tyler and I captured these last weekend as a proof of concept. We played the HDR10 10,000 / BT.2020 version off the disc. RGB out of OPPO was used since I have measured it and know how it works. The analyzer was in gamut warning mode, which is why the image is B&W with orange and red pixels. Gamut was set to warn when pixels go beyond P3. Luminance warning was set when content goes over 4,000 nits. We also had the GUI of the analyzer set to HDR, which is why it looks washed out. The timecode is at 00:00:00:00 because the OPPO does not output timecode nor is it embedded in the HEVC encode.

There are several different thresholds when to alert and those will be tuned for the version we end up using on the disc.

OPPO BDP-203 (RGB) -> AJA Analyzer -> AJA Io 4K Plus (ProRes 4:2:2)

Peacock:


Seattle Skyline:
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post #632 of 641 Old 11-21-2019, 07:27 PM
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Hey Stacey,

I just wanted to let you know I went to Canon today to see if the repairs made to my projector were successful, and brought along my S&M 4k Benchmark disk. The projector repair tech was blown away at how useful and well done it was, and it made it very easy for me to show him the various issues. I think he ordered his own copy as soon as I walked out of the door.

Anyway, thanks again for making such a valuable well thought out tool!

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post #633 of 641 Old 11-25-2019, 09:25 AM
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I got a panasonic DP-UB820 downconverting 4K to a Samsung Plasma 64F8500 (1080p) and got a question regarding color.
The plasma has a blue mode only and I get different results from 1) the old HD S&M benchmark and 2) the SD patterns on the new UHD disc and 3) the UHD patterns on the new UHD disc.
Which should I trust for watching 4K movies?
I assumed that if the downconversion is done correctly, I should get no difference from 1) and 3).

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post #634 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 06:05 AM
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Stacey,
In the Getting started documentation I see this recommendation, "For HDR, don't change the backlight setting". Can you please expand on the rationale behind this. Is it so that the light output (nits) for a given scene is accurate? I ask because I often see others recommend setting backlight to the maximum value for HDR. Thanks.
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post #635 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brygalt_hdr View Post
Stacey,
In the Getting started documentation I see this recommendation, "For HDR, don't change the backlight setting". Can you please expand on the rationale behind this. Is it so that the light output (nits) for a given scene is accurate? I ask because I often see others recommend setting backlight to the maximum value for HDR. Thanks.
Backlight is usually auto set to 100% for HDR as you say and that is where it should be left. Are you seeing a different value for HDR other than max?

OLED light is an interesting one. On a previous generation of LG OLED, it was a lower value for Dolby Vision and maxed for HDR10. Turns out in Dolby Vision it was used for something else (mid tones), which is why the control was lower.

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post #636 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
I got a panasonic DP-UB820 downconverting 4K to a Samsung Plasma 64F8500 (1080p) and got a question regarding color.
The plasma has a blue mode only and I get different results from 1) the old HD S&M benchmark and 2) the SD patterns on the new UHD disc and 3) the UHD patterns on the new UHD disc.
Which should I trust for watching 4K movies?
I assumed that if the downconversion is done correctly, I should get no difference from 1) and 3).
Just wanted to confirm some things you posted.

1. 2nd Edition? The Color and Tint pattern under the first video menu?
2. There are no SD patterns, perhaps you meant SDR?
3. Here you mention UHD patterns, so just want to confirm the difference between 2 and 3. Maybe you mean SDR in 2 and HDR in 3? Everything is UHD except the HD scaling patterns.

The color and tint pattern under the video setup menu (SDR 709) has the same pixel values as the color and tint pattern on the 2nd edition. Only thing different is the resolution. If you are seeing a difference, then the player or display is making a change.

The HDR version of the color and tint pattern is different as it is HDR. (58% stimulus) Those will be tone mapped by the player to your Plasma since it is SDR only. They are also 2020 vs. 709.

Do you have the HDR optimizer enabled?

The original plan was that all UHD would be 2020. However, first to market decided to use 709 for SDR and so most have stuck with it. In the end, there is a flag in the bitstream. Assuming it is set correctly and passed to the block that does the color space conversion, then it should not matter, but that is a big IF on passing the flag all the way through.

For HD, often they used logic. If the resolution was <= 576, then use 601 else use 709. Setting the flags in SD and HD was optional and rarely set.

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post #637 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Just wanted to confirm some things you posted.

1. 2nd Edition? The Color and Tint pattern under the first video menu?
Yes.
Quote:
2. There are no SD patterns, perhaps you meant SDR?
Yes, sorry, the "SDR BT.709" pattern "Color and Tint.
Quote:
3. Here you mention UHD patterns, so just want to confirm the difference between 2 and 3. Maybe you mean SDR in 2 and HDR in 3? Everything is UHD except the HD scaling patterns.
Yes.
Quote:
The color and tint pattern under the video setup menu (SDR 709) has the same pixel values as the color and tint pattern on the 2nd edition. Only thing different is the resolution. If you are seeing a difference, then the player or display is making a change.
Actually, after resetting all player settings, I do get the same value of my color setting on the TV, 50, for both 1) and 2).
Quote:
The HDR version of the color and tint pattern is different as it is HDR. (58% stimulus) Those will be tone mapped by the player to your Plasma since it is SDR only. They are also 2020 vs. 709.
Do you have the HDR optimizer enabled?
For 3), the HDR optimizer makes a very very slight change. I end up with the color setting to 47 on the TV which is not good since
that is the wrong setting for watching 1080p content on the same player. But I now have set the player's UHD setting "Colour Adustment->Colour Saturation" to -2 which seems like a compromise so that I can have the same Color setting on the TV regardless of which type of disc I am playing.

Does it makes sense? To me, it seems the player does not tone map correctly.

Now, here is a follow up: if I change DR Conversion Adjustment and/or Tone Curve (White) etc in the player, it throws up the color setting (viewed in blue mode) again, should I try to compensate that too with the Colour Saturation or skip it?

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post #638 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Backlight is usually auto set to 100% for HDR as you say and that is where it should be left. Are you seeing a different value for HDR other than max?

OLED light is an interesting one. On a previous generation of LG OLED, it was a lower value for Dolby Vision and maxed for HDR10. Turns out in Dolby Vision it was used for something else (mid tones), which is why the control was lower.
My Samsung NU7100 retains unique settings for HDR and SDR for each input (HDMI1, 2, 3). When I watch HDR content the TV does not auto change the backlight setting to max, it stays wherever I set it to last. my original question was just to clarify if you were recommending that I leave it at the default value (similar to your suggestion to leave contrast in the default setting for HDR) or set it to max value [45 is my backlight default, 50 is max]. Seems like you are suggesting to max out backlight in HDR. thanks for the reply.
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post #639 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
Yes.
Yes, sorry, the "SDR BT.709" pattern "Color and Tint.
Yes.
Actually, after resetting all player settings, I do get the same value of my color setting on the TV, 50, for both 1) and 2).
The HDR optimizer makes a very very slight change. I end up with the color setting to 47 on the TV which is not good since
that is the wrong setting for watching 1080p content on the same player. But I now have set the player's UHD setting "Colour Adustment->Colour Saturation" to -2 which seems like a compromise so that I can have the same Color setting on the TV regardless of which type of disc I am playing.

Does it makes sense? To me, it seems the player does not tone map correctly.


Now, here is a follow up: if I change DR Conversion Adjustment and/or Tone Curve (White) etc in the player, it throws up the color setting (viewed in blue mode) again, should I try to compensate that too with the Colour Saturation or skip it?
There is no "correct" way to tone map since there is no standard. When I buy an Ultra HD disc, I use the Blu-ray version for my SDR projector, not the tone mapped HDR version. Not happy with current HDR to SDR tone mapping. I don't have Atmos / DTS:X at home yet, so I am not missing out on the immersive audio on the UHD that is not on the HD disc.

The HDR Optimizer has both good and bad qualities. I think it does really well not shifting hue when it tone maps, but it also has some banding when it tone maps. Tone mapping seems to be equal parts art and science.

In addition to the tone mapping, you also have the color space twist from 2020 to 709, which is not difficult as long as you go to RGB first. I don't know if they expected customers to use it for conversion to SDR, but possibly.

Assuming the color control you are adjusting in the player is similar to a color / tint control on the TV, then that sounds fine. Never a fan of adjusting picture controls in a player, but in your case not much choice. Does this impact HD discs on the player or just UHD discs?

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post #640 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brygalt_hdr View Post
My Samsung NU7100 retains unique settings for HDR and SDR for each input (HDMI1, 2, 3). When I watch HDR content the TV does not auto change the backlight setting to max, it stays wherever I set it to last. my original question was just to clarify if you were recommending that I leave it at the default value (similar to your suggestion to leave contrast in the default setting for HDR) or set it to max value [45 is my backlight default, 50 is max]. Seems like you are suggesting to max out backlight in HDR. thanks for the reply.
In SDR, I lower the backlight to hit 100 nits. For HDR, it has always been maxed and I don't mess with it. I would need to double check the QLED, which is the last Samsung LCD I used. If you reset the picture controls, does backlight go to max for HDR vs. your previous setting?

Backlight is not a normal picture control like contrast, for example. Contrast actually alters the video signal, which is why a visual test pattern works. Backlight does not make changes to the video pipeline. This is why there is no visual pattern for backlight. On SDR, you use a 100% window pattern and then a light meter.

The OLED light is some crazy high value by default for SDR. 25 is about where it needs to be for 100 nits. Of course, there are those that like SDR at 200-300 nits and so they turn it up.
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post #641 of 641 Old 11-26-2019, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Assuming the color control you are adjusting in the player is similar to a color / tint control on the TV, then that sounds fine. Never a fan of adjusting picture controls in a player, but in your case not much choice. Does this impact HD discs on the player or just UHD discs?
Just UHD discs which is why it works for me. There are 3 different (1, 2 and Default) sets of adjustment settings for UHD discs and there are 3 additional sets of adjustments for BD/HD discs so the Saturation setting for HD/BD discs is still 0. Actually, it seems there are 3 different sets for SD discs also!

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