Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 356Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #661 of 748 Old 01-04-2020, 07:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
@sspears Is the full bandwidth at the HDMI port necessary for Dolby Vision?

I ask because I noticed that full bandwidth off, the image quality was strikingly more crisp. On, it seemed to negatively affect tone mapping, contrast, and color saturation. HDR10 seem to need full bandwidth turned on.

Sent from my LGMP450 using Tapatalk
It sounds like a different memory was used as full bandwidth would not make an image less crisp. Dolby Vision itself actually works over HDMI 1.4 since all the metadata is embedded in the image itself. This is for TV-led. For low latency, it is simply HDR12.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #662 of 748 Old 01-04-2020, 07:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tjcinnamon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,290
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Liked: 595
Have you considered turning this into a tvOS app on the AppleTV? Seems like you could do that and download some of the videos in their highest quality on demand as well as provide step by step instruction. I don't have a UHD BluRay player but would like to calibrate.

Just food for thought.

NAD 758 v3 with Dirac 7.6.4 + Rotel 976 + Panamax M5300-PM + B6 OLED 65
Speakers: Paradigm Prestige 75F's + 55C; 8x Paradigm CI Pro P65-R's
Subs1: 2x LRK Build Thread + 2x Rotel 981 (bridged); retired: VRK Build thread
Subs2: 2x Rythmik LVX12; 2x Dayton HF 12's Ultra-NearField + Crown XLS 2002
MiniDSP HD & Non; DIY Room Treatments: Dutch Floral Prints
tjcinnamon is offline  
post #663 of 748 Old 01-05-2020, 09:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Have you considered turning this into a tvOS app on the AppleTV? Seems like you could do that and download some of the videos in their highest quality on demand as well as provide step by step instruction. I don't have a UHD BluRay player but would like to calibrate.

Just food for thought.
Not at this time.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #664 of 748 Old 01-05-2020, 04:10 PM
Senior Member
 
SALadder22FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 49
When calibrating should I sit in my normal spot or get up close to the screen?

Also, should I use it for my Xbox out of the Xbox disc tray if I'm trying to calibrate Xbox One X

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Epson 5040UBe, 120" Black Diamond Zero Edge 7 Screen 1.4 gain with LEDs
Marantz SR6011 Reciever, Xbox One X Project Scorpio Edition, Nvidia Shield,BDI Ola 8137 stand, Logitech Harmony One Remote with Alexa,
Klipsch Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 surround sound
SALadder22FF is offline  
post #665 of 748 Old 01-06-2020, 08:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by SALadder22FF View Post
Also, should I use it for my Xbox out of the Xbox disc tray if I'm trying to calibrate Xbox One X
Not sure what you are asking, can you clarify? I don't know what out of the xbox disc tray means.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #666 of 748 Old 01-06-2020, 09:02 AM
Senior Member
 
SALadder22FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Not sure what you are asking, can you clarify? I don't know what out of the xbox disc tray means.
Should I calibrate my 4k HDR Blu Ray player and save that setting and then calibrate separately for Xbox using the disc in the Xbox since it's a separate input.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Epson 5040UBe, 120" Black Diamond Zero Edge 7 Screen 1.4 gain with LEDs
Marantz SR6011 Reciever, Xbox One X Project Scorpio Edition, Nvidia Shield,BDI Ola 8137 stand, Logitech Harmony One Remote with Alexa,
Klipsch Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 surround sound
SALadder22FF is offline  
post #667 of 748 Old 01-06-2020, 09:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by SALadder22FF View Post
Should I calibrate my 4k HDR Blu Ray player and save that setting and then calibrate separately for Xbox using the disc in the Xbox since it's a separate input.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
I would calibrate each on its own, but assuming they are outputting the same color space and bit depth, the settings should match. Other than xbox chroma alignment is broken and chroma resolution is greatly reduced. Compare the chroma zone plate (crossed) between the two players. Which UHD player do you have that is non-XBOX?

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #668 of 748 Old 01-06-2020, 02:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
drewTT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 4,910
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2303 Post(s)
Liked: 2546
I finally got to play around with this disc. Really just watched the incredible demo footage. Amazing the difference the HDR optimizer on my player makes when watching the high nit stuff.

LG OLED65E8 | Plinius Hiato | Dynaudio Contour 20 | Dynaudio Stand 6 | REL S/510 | PS Audio DirectStream | Furman IT-Reference 15i | roon
Panasonic DP-UB9000 | Synology DS916+ | Apple TV 4K | BDI Mirage | NEEO | Focal Shape 40 | iFi Pro iDSD | iFi Pro iRack | iFi AC iPurifier
drewTT is offline  
post #669 of 748 Old 01-07-2020, 09:37 AM
Senior Member
 
SALadder22FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
I would calibrate each on its own, but assuming they are outputting the same color space and bit depth, the settings should match. Other than xbox chroma alignment is broken and chroma resolution is greatly reduced. Compare the chroma zone plate (crossed) between the two players. Which UHD player do you have that is non-XBOX?
I am using the Panasonic DP-UB420 for my 4K player.

Epson 5040UBe, 120" Black Diamond Zero Edge 7 Screen 1.4 gain with LEDs
Marantz SR6011 Reciever, Xbox One X Project Scorpio Edition, Nvidia Shield,BDI Ola 8137 stand, Logitech Harmony One Remote with Alexa,
Klipsch Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 surround sound
SALadder22FF is offline  
post #670 of 748 Old 01-08-2020, 10:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by SALadder22FF View Post
I am using the Panasonic DP-UB420 for my 4K player.
Are you using the Xbox just for games? Or do you also use for streaming media and or discs? I would highly recommend using the Panasonic for all discs as it is far superior to the Xbox One X in that regard.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #671 of 748 Old 01-08-2020, 11:16 AM
Senior Member
 
SALadder22FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Are you using the Xbox just for games? Or do you also use for streaming media and or discs? I would highly recommend using the Panasonic for all discs as it is far superior to the Xbox One X in that regard.
I use the Xbox One X for streaming becaues it's one of a limited that will do Atmost in Netflix along with HDR. I use the Panasonic of 4k discs. The Xbox however does 4k HDR gaming at 60fps so I wanted that to look as good as possible as well.

Epson 5040UBe, 120" Black Diamond Zero Edge 7 Screen 1.4 gain with LEDs
Marantz SR6011 Reciever, Xbox One X Project Scorpio Edition, Nvidia Shield,BDI Ola 8137 stand, Logitech Harmony One Remote with Alexa,
Klipsch Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 surround sound
SALadder22FF is offline  
post #672 of 748 Old 01-10-2020, 11:33 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Maine
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Send a message via Skype™ to Jeffrey40SW
Hi guys, I am an old member, but have not logged in for a long time. I decided to make a new profile as I don't have anything to do with that other review site that was part of my old user name.

I just recently purchased my first 4K tv and player and I have some questions about the awesome test disk I grabbed the other day.

I'm not new to calibrating but, I am new to the HDR and 4k stuff so here is what, I did and would welcome feedback on what I may have done wrong and why.


The tv is a samsung Qled 75" First thing I took it out of torch mode and into cinema and warm 2. I ran the the contrast pattern and it was pretty obvious that it was crushing whites and there was an obvious color shift in the upper end. I backed contrast off only a few clicks and color shift went away and it was no longer crushing the upper end of the scale. I know your articles said not to touch contrast in HDR mode, but it seems the color shifting to pink in the upper end is pushing the setting further than it should be?

Next I ran the black level and could not see anything but a black screen. I tweaked the gamma setting a couple of clicks and they popped up on the right side. I then adjusted black level just until the left bar was barely visible.

Then I looked at the color pattern and it was clear the yellow block was tinted ever so slightly green. I adjusted tint two clicks and turned a nice yellow and I left it there.

I then checked sharpness and it was set to high by default. Backed it down till the edges had no white creep.

Then I ran the test footage and the back light was way too high for a dark room. Blinding actually. I set it in the middle and rechecked the contrast and brightness and nothing changed as it should not have.

Then I watched the test footage and was blown away. I then repeated this for Rec 709 as well.

I know it says not to touch these settings in HDR but it just didn't seem correct to me after many many hrs calibrating older HD sets. What are your thoughts and input?

Thanks guys for a great tool and looking forward to getting a new meter and software to correct the gray scale.

Jeff
Jeffrey40SW is offline  
post #673 of 748 Old 01-12-2020, 10:08 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: New York
Posts: 6,034
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4963 Post(s)
Liked: 6037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey40SW View Post
Hi guys, I am an old member, but have not logged in for a long time. I decided to make a new profile as I don't have anything to do with that other review site that was part of my old user name.

I just recently purchased my first 4K tv and player and I have some questions about the awesome test disk I grabbed the other day.

I'm not new to calibrating but, I am new to the HDR and 4k stuff so here is what, I did and would welcome feedback on what I may have done wrong and why.


The tv is a samsung Qled 75" First thing I took it out of torch mode and into cinema and warm 2. I ran the the contrast pattern and it was pretty obvious that it was crushing whites and there was an obvious color shift in the upper end. I backed contrast off only a few clicks and color shift went away and it was no longer crushing the upper end of the scale. I know your articles said not to touch contrast in HDR mode, but it seems the color shifting to pink in the upper end is pushing the setting further than it should be?

Next I ran the black level and could not see anything but a black screen. I tweaked the gamma setting a couple of clicks and they popped up on the right side. I then adjusted black level just until the left bar was barely visible.

Then I looked at the color pattern and it was clear the yellow block was tinted ever so slightly green. I adjusted tint two clicks and turned a nice yellow and I left it there.

I then checked sharpness and it was set to high by default. Backed it down till the edges had no white creep.

Then I ran the test footage and the back light was way too high for a dark room. Blinding actually. I set it in the middle and rechecked the contrast and brightness and nothing changed as it should not have.

Then I watched the test footage and was blown away. I then repeated this for Rec 709 as well.

I know it says not to touch these settings in HDR but it just didn't seem correct to me after many many hrs calibrating older HD sets. What are your thoughts and input?

Thanks guys for a great tool and looking forward to getting a new meter and software to correct the gray scale.

Jeff
On the Samsung, you can adjust the Contrast to get the PQ correct. They do some "hokey" thing with the contrast to make the HDR look brighter but at the price if inaccuracy.
AnotherDude and mombasa123 like this.

John
Sony 55A1E, A9F, LG CX
Marantz 7012, Ohm Walsh Speakers
Klein K10-A, Jeti 1501, Murideo Six-G Gen2
Calman Ultimate, LightSpace Pro, ISF Level III Certified
jrref is offline  
post #674 of 748 Old 01-13-2020, 08:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NismoZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,060
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 49
I was going through the basic calibration on the UHD HDR Benchmark disk. On the brightness adjustment article, I noticed 2 things:

1. The two left bars are below reference black and the two right bars are above reference black. If you are using a display and player that can pass the below-black signal, you just raise the brightness control until all four bars are visible, then lower it again until the two left bars disappear but the two right bars are still visible.

2. If you’re using a display that can’t pass below-black (you’ll know because you won’t see the two left bars even with the brightness turned way up), then start by raising the brightness if needed so you can see both right-hand bars. Lower the brightness control until the faintest right bar disappears, then raise it a notch or two until both right bars are visible.

My setup is an Xbox One X -> LGC9. As it turns out, apparently I am using a display like option 2, that can't pass below-black. Is this expected and the right config for me? What are the setups that can pass below-black?

Second, another thing was about the Sharpness section. I did notice that artifacts when bringing the C9 past 20 in sharpness. However, down lower than that I couldn't really tell much of a difference on down to 0. I heard that the C9 doesn't artificially start adding stuff into sharpness above 10. Is this true? And where should my Sharpness setting be? 0 or 10?

Third question. (I do know that the Xbox One X does not pass DV from a disk, only from streaming apps. Hopefully this will be fixed in the new Series X) How is the Dolby Vision picture mode on TVs supposed to be calibrated using this disk? I've seen SDR and HDR calibrations, but nothing that will do DV mode. While calibrating the C9 on HDR picture mode, are we to use those same settings over on Dolby Vision modes?
NismoZ is offline  
post #675 of 748 Old 01-14-2020, 10:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by NismoZ View Post
I was going through the basic calibration on the UHD HDR Benchmark disk. On the brightness adjustment article, I noticed 2 things:

1. The two left bars are below reference black and the two right bars are above reference black. If you are using a display and player that can pass the below-black signal, you just raise the brightness control until all four bars are visible, then lower it again until the two left bars disappear but the two right bars are still visible.

2. If you’re using a display that can’t pass below-black (you’ll know because you won’t see the two left bars even with the brightness turned way up), then start by raising the brightness if needed so you can see both right-hand bars. Lower the brightness control until the faintest right bar disappears, then raise it a notch or two until both right bars are visible.

My setup is an Xbox One X -> LGC9. As it turns out, apparently I am using a display like option 2, that can't pass below-black. Is this expected and the right config for me? What are the setups that can pass below-black?

Second, another thing was about the Sharpness section. I did notice that artifacts when bringing the C9 past 20 in sharpness. However, down lower than that I couldn't really tell much of a difference on down to 0. I heard that the C9 doesn't artificially start adding stuff into sharpness above 10. Is this true? And where should my Sharpness setting be? 0 or 10?

Third question. (I do know that the Xbox One X does not pass DV from a disk, only from streaming apps. Hopefully this will be fixed in the new Series X) How is the Dolby Vision picture mode on TVs supposed to be calibrated using this disk? I've seen SDR and HDR calibrations, but nothing that will do DV mode. While calibrating the C9 on HDR picture mode, are we to use those same settings over on Dolby Vision modes?
HDR is designed as a full range format from the get go. The way content is created is it is done in 0-1 space. Think of this as 0-1023 in 10-bit. Then for transmission, it is converted to limited range of 64-940. On the display end, it is then converted back to 64-940. Because of this, there is nothing below 64 or above 940 in HDR content. While we do put stuff below 64 for brightness and some other patterns, it is not expected to be visible. If you compare the 10,000 nit HDR contrast to SDR, you will see HDR goes to 940 while SDR goes to 1019. You will also notice that we use SDR patterns in all of our articles. We can't display HDR on paper or on the web at this time.

There are some displays like Sony that convert to high bitdepth floating point internally. They can still maintain values below 0 and above 1 if you adjust black level (their name for brightness) or contrast. But in HDR you should not touch these controls or the display may behave in an non-deterministic way.

Be sure your xbox is set to YCbCr output into the C9. The default setting in Cinema mode on the C9 for brightness is correct. Note that you need to break in the C9 for 100 hours before you calibrate. It needs to be bright HDR content. I would put the 10,000 nit montage into a loop and let it play for 100 hours. Or while you are not using the display.

Xbox will not support DV, last they told me, on the next device For Blu-ray. Its a Windows pipeline issue. Netflix app gets around it as they don't use the Windows multimedia pipeline, they have their own, which they use on all platforms. I would recommend another player for Blu-ray playback.

I just looked at my C9 and I have sharpness set to 10 for what that is worth.

To get the most out of the C9, you want to find someone with a colorimeter and software that supports autocal of the LG. Then you will get SDR, HDR10 and Dolby Vision set perfectly.

There are no DV patterns on the current disc. At the time we shipped, the SDK for 4.0 was not final and we could not produce profile 7 content. We can now do that and will be adding DV to the update coming later in the year.
KC-Technerd and mombasa123 like this.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #676 of 748 Old 01-14-2020, 10:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Just wanted to provide an update on the update. We are close to finishing up the Atmos audio stuff. We have been working on that for the past few months. Once that is done, then we will get the DTS audio stuff created. What we have done will allow anything from 5.1.0 to 9.1.6 to be setup.

The beginners guide is also being formatted now for eBook and PDF and will hopefully be out by the end of the month.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #677 of 748 Old 01-14-2020, 05:09 PM
Biased (but nice)
 
Scenic Labs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kinnelon, NJ
Posts: 235
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Send a message via Skype™ to Scenic Labs
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Just wanted to provide an update on the update. We are close to finishing up the Atmos audio stuff. We have been working on that for the past few months. Once that is done, then we will get the DTS audio stuff created. What we have done will allow anything from 5.1.0 to 9.1.6 to be setup.

The beginners guide is also being formatted now for eBook and PDF and will hopefully be out by the end of the month.
You may see the ebook appear sporadically on the Kindle store over the next week for $.99. Don’t pay!

It WILL be free, but the only way to make it permanently free is to give it away for free on other ebook stores and have Amazon price match it. When you do see that, if you would be so kind as to “report a lower price” to Amazon, it will help to make it permanently free! There is no other way to do it.

We can also make a book free for up to 5 days by making it a Kindle exclusive, which we won’t be doing.

Jason Rosenfeld
Scenic Labs, LLC
Publisher of Spears & Munsil Benchmark UHD HDR Benchmark.
Maker of The ISF-certified MediaLight 6500K Bias Lighting System
Scenic Labs is offline  
post #678 of 748 Old 01-16-2020, 04:29 AM
Senior Member
 
mombasa123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey40SW View Post
Hi guys, I am an old member, but have not logged in for a long time. I decided to make a new profile as I don't have anything to do with that other review site that was part of my old user name.

I just recently purchased my first 4K tv and player and I have some questions about the awesome test disk I grabbed the other day.

I'm not new to calibrating but, I am new to the HDR and 4k stuff so here is what, I did and would welcome feedback on what I may have done wrong and why.


The tv is a samsung Qled 75" First thing I took it out of torch mode and into cinema and warm 2. I ran the the contrast pattern and it was pretty obvious that it was crushing whites and there was an obvious color shift in the upper end. I backed contrast off only a few clicks and color shift went away and it was no longer crushing the upper end of the scale. I know your articles said not to touch contrast in HDR mode, but it seems the color shifting to pink in the upper end is pushing the setting further than it should be?

Next I ran the black level and could not see anything but a black screen. I tweaked the gamma setting a couple of clicks and they popped up on the right side. I then adjusted black level just until the left bar was barely visible.

Then I looked at the color pattern and it was clear the yellow block was tinted ever so slightly green. I adjusted tint two clicks and turned a nice yellow and I left it there.

I then checked sharpness and it was set to high by default. Backed it down till the edges had no white creep.

Then I ran the test footage and the back light was way too high for a dark room. Blinding actually. I set it in the middle and rechecked the contrast and brightness and nothing changed as it should not have.

Then I watched the test footage and was blown away. I then repeated this for Rec 709 as well.

I know it says not to touch these settings in HDR but it just didn't seem correct to me after many many hrs calibrating older HD sets. What are your thoughts and input?

Thanks guys for a great tool and looking forward to getting a new meter and software to correct the gray scale.

Jeff
The default Contrast at 50 is way too high and exhibits colour shifts as you say. Samsung QLED don't match the EOTF curve until you lower Contrast to around 42 for 1000 nits and 45 for 4K nits. Haven't tried 10K nits EOTF curve yet. It's a pain as I have to check the nits of the source material everytime I play HDR and adjust Contrast accordingly.

My brightness is at the default 0 and the black level patterns show up fine. They don't go all the way to 65 on the Low Dynamic Range pattern but i reckon thats down to Local Dimming so leaving it as its - some black crush is inevitable. I did experiment with Black at 1 and initially preferred it for revealing more shadow detail but I now think thats incorrect.

Colour & Tint should be left at the default 25 & 0.

Backlight - personal preference I guess but since HDR is partly about bright highlights, i have it at 50.

My settings here : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57624176
AnotherDude likes this.

Last edited by mombasa123; 01-17-2020 at 08:30 AM.
mombasa123 is offline  
post #679 of 748 Old 01-17-2020, 07:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
The default Contrast at 50 is way too high and exhibits colour shifts as you say. Samsung QLED don't match the EOTF curve until you lower Contrast to around 42 for 1000 nits and 45 for 4K nits. Haven't tried 10K nits EOTF curve yet. It's a pain as I have to check the nits of the source material everytime I play HDR and adjust Contrast accordingly.

My brightness is at the default 0 and the black level patterns show up fine. They don't go all the way to 65 on the Low Pluge pattern but i reckon thats down to Local Dimming so leaving it as its - some black crush is inevitable. I did experiment with Black at 1 and initially preferred it for revealing more shadow detail but I now think thats incorrect.

Colour & Tint should be left at the default 25 & 0.

Backlight - personal preference I guess but since HDR is partly about bright highlights, i have it at 50.

My settings here : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57624176
Great feedback! Here are some notes though:

Many have found that its best to only track PQ up to a few hundred nits and then start the roll-off there for tone mapping. This reduces the clipped look and still does really well at matching the X300.

PQ goes as low as the display can handle and not any lower because it is an absolute curve. The question is what should they do after that? Should they tone map or hard clip? e.g. The Pulsar can only go as low as code value 77 (0.005 nits). The X300 can go down to 0 nits. (code value 64) Though I think they spec around 0.0001. (code value 65) A color should have scopes so they can ensure black hits 64. We did this for the black backgrounds in the montage. I wanted them at true black.
mombasa123 and mrtickleuk like this.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #680 of 748 Old 01-17-2020, 07:29 AM
Senior Member
 
SALadder22FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 49
I'm going to be using the Epson 5050UB paired with Panasonic UB420 for my 4k viewing and blu ray watching. At the begining of the guide it says to set on Cinema. Is this the recommended setting for the Epson as it drops it's brightness significantly.

Also, There are sections for each part and then the one main article of getting started. Do I need to go through each separate article or will the main one get me going?

Thanks.

Epson 5040UBe, 120" Black Diamond Zero Edge 7 Screen 1.4 gain with LEDs
Marantz SR6011 Reciever, Xbox One X Project Scorpio Edition, Nvidia Shield,BDI Ola 8137 stand, Logitech Harmony One Remote with Alexa,
Klipsch Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 surround sound
SALadder22FF is offline  
post #681 of 748 Old 01-17-2020, 08:40 AM
Senior Member
 
mombasa123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Great feedback! Here are some notes though:

Many have found that its best to only track PQ up to a few hundred nits and then start the roll-off there for tone mapping. This reduces the clipped look and still does really well at matching the X300.

PQ goes as low as the display can handle and not any lower because it is an absolute curve. The question is what should they do after that? Should they tone map or hard clip? e.g. The Pulsar can only go as low as code value 77 (0.005 nits). The X300 can go down to 0 nits. (code value 64) Though I think they spec around 0.0001. (code value 65) A color should have scopes so they can ensure black hits 64. We did this for the black backgrounds in the montage. I wanted them at true black.
Interesting re low level PQ. I seem to remember that the Samsung QLED is definitely better that the Pulsar as the Pulsar box shows up but cant remember if my Brightness was 0 or 1 at the time. Will check again when I get back to HK.

Fyi, for SDR the Low Dynamic Range pattern shows all the boxes down to 65 but HDR (from memory) gets down to 76 only which means Samsung have to hard clip HDR I guess.

Last edited by mombasa123; 01-17-2020 at 08:43 AM.
mombasa123 is offline  
post #682 of 748 Old 01-18-2020, 02:34 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Hi,
im having some trouble with HDR setup, I feel like the recommended contrast is wrong and can't get a colour space to display the test patterns correctly.

Equipment
UHD - Panasonic UB-420
AVR - Denon 6200
TV - Panasonic 75ex780
Projector - Epson 9400 (6050 in the US)

The effects are more pronounced on the projector, but still there on the TV. Nothing really looks like the recommended settings you have described. My UHD Player has a ranged of colour space options, the best is RGB 12bit (4:4:4 10/12 looks rubbish, as does 4:2:2 10/12, with test footage they look fine, but not in the calibration patterns) Using 1000nit patterns. 600 looks slightly better, but not by much.

Contrast
HDR contrast looks to be out when at the recommended default setting, lowering it to around 23 seems to help. This is around the same number I used in SDR calibration so wondering if that's just a really dodgy contrast number and something wrong with the PJ. My TV can be left at the default setting and look ok.
Below are the contrast patterns at 50(default) and 23 that looks ok to my eyes without crazy clipping.

Colour Space Settings
Really struggling with this one, the images below show the best of the colour space in RGB 12bit. But not all colour bursts are showing up clearly in the top two, in other colour spaces I have 4 of the top 6 not really showing. Going close to the screen I can see they are there but not very bright or how they should be shown.

Clipping is hard to see in this picture but 3/4 are correct, with right-most one not showing very well.

Tracking is not good, always seeing the grey bars (better on my TV but still see the darker grey bars)

Colour space conversion - always have more green squares showing than red squares. Same on both PJ and TV

Banding - Have very visible blue banding on PJ and TV, red looks find on both.


Any ideas about what to do, been trying every colour space combination possible and they don't really look that good at all. I have tried connecting the UHD Player direct to PJ/TV and same results. Also copied one of the colour space test pattern onto my media player and shows similar results (thought it might be BD player). I have verified that the projector/tv is receiving HDR signal.

Thinking about just paying someone to calibrate everything

Any help would be apricated

Thanks
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20200118_163056.jpg
Views:	60
Size:	106.0 KB
ID:	2671622   Click image for larger version

Name:	20200118_163017.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	96.0 KB
ID:	2671624   Click image for larger version

Name:	20200118_163254.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	134.7 KB
ID:	2671628   Click image for larger version

Name:	20200118_163244.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	132.8 KB
ID:	2671630   Click image for larger version

Name:	20200118_163139.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	75.7 KB
ID:	2671632  

Click image for larger version

Name:	20200118_163128.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	75.6 KB
ID:	2671634  
JohnnyBoyPerth is offline  
post #683 of 748 Old 01-18-2020, 02:42 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by SALadder22FF View Post
I'm going to be using the Epson 5050UB paired with Panasonic UB420 for my 4k viewing and blu ray watching. At the begining of the guide it says to set on Cinema. Is this the recommended setting for the Epson as it drops it's brightness significantly.

Also, There are sections for each part and then the one main article of getting started. Do I need to go through each separate article or will the main one get me going?

Thanks.
I know for the Epson PJ's, for SDR content you want to be in natural. For HDR you want to be in digital cinema.

Only cinema or digital cinema modes use the colour filter to get you close to the P3 colour gamut. About 50% light loss but will be more accurate colour, just put it in med/high lamp to overcome the light loss a little.
JohnnyBoyPerth is offline  
post #684 of 748 Old 01-18-2020, 09:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by SALadder22FF View Post
I'm going to be using the Epson 5050UB paired with Panasonic UB420 for my 4k viewing and blu ray watching. At the begining of the guide it says to set on Cinema. Is this the recommended setting for the Epson as it drops it's brightness significantly.

Also, There are sections for each part and then the one main article of getting started. Do I need to go through each separate article or will the main one get me going?

Thanks.
I have not used an Epson myself. The default mode, for SDR, is probably brighter than intended. Consider Cinema a starting point. With a projector, for SDR, you should be targeting 15 foot lamberts or 48 nits. EDR is around 100 nits with a projector.

The getting started combines the most important bits from each individual article. The individual articles just go into more detail. I would at least read the color space article. These articles also have sample images.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #685 of 748 Old 01-18-2020, 09:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBoyPerth View Post
Hi,
im having some trouble with HDR setup, I feel like the recommended contrast is wrong and can't get a colour space to display the test patterns correctly.

Equipment
UHD - Panasonic UB-420
AVR - Denon 6200
TV - Panasonic 75ex780
Projector - Epson 9400 (6050 in the US)

The effects are more pronounced on the projector, but still there on the TV. Nothing really looks like the recommended settings you have described. My UHD Player has a ranged of colour space options, the best is RGB 12bit (4:4:4 10/12 looks rubbish, as does 4:2:2 10/12, with test footage they look fine, but not in the calibration patterns) Using 1000nit patterns. 600 looks slightly better, but not by much.

Contrast
HDR contrast looks to be out when at the recommended default setting, lowering it to around 23 seems to help. This is around the same number I used in SDR calibration so wondering if that's just a really dodgy contrast number and something wrong with the PJ. My TV can be left at the default setting and look ok.
Below are the contrast patterns at 50(default) and 23 that looks ok to my eyes without crazy clipping.

Colour Space Settings
Really struggling with this one, the images below show the best of the colour space in RGB 12bit. But not all colour bursts are showing up clearly in the top two, in other colour spaces I have 4 of the top 6 not really showing. Going close to the screen I can see they are there but not very bright or how they should be shown.

Clipping is hard to see in this picture but 3/4 are correct, with right-most one not showing very well.

Tracking is not good, always seeing the grey bars (better on my TV but still see the darker grey bars)

Colour space conversion - always have more green squares showing than red squares. Same on both PJ and TV

Banding - Have very visible blue banding on PJ and TV, red looks find on both.


Any ideas about what to do, been trying every colour space combination possible and they don't really look that good at all. I have tried connecting the UHD Player direct to PJ/TV and same results. Also copied one of the colour space test pattern onto my media player and shows similar results (thought it might be BD player). I have verified that the projector/tv is receiving HDR signal.

Thinking about just paying someone to calibrate everything

Any help would be apricated

Thanks
All of the sample images in our articles are for SDR. We can't really show HDR on a web page or in print since HDR is not supported in those cases. SDR uses a relative curve. The blackest your display can do is mapped to 64 and the brightest is mapped to 940. In HDR, it is absolute. So the blackest your display can do is mapped to the code value for that black level and everything below it may be clipped. Same for the top end, except this is where tone mapping comes in. The displays have to follow the curve up to a certain point and then begin to roll everything off to try and fit the remainder it into the same space up to the limit of your display. If they start the roll-off early, and take it slow, they can better distribute the code values above your displays capability and it does not look as clipped. If they try and follow the curve as high as possible and then roll off, then it will look clipped. It is always a compromise.

Until a true 10,000 nit HDR display exists, the patterns will never display correctly. This is why we say not to touch contrast in HDR, it simply lowers the light output and should not bring back any detail.

Projectors really don't go much above 100 nits. The code value for 100 nits is 509. So everything from 509 to 940 must be mapped into 509. A projector probably needs to start rolling off around 10-20 nits. So in this case, everything from say 20-10,000 must be mapped into what your display can do. 20 nits is code value 377. So everything from 377 to 940 must be mapped into 509. Lots of assumptions here.

An OLED is usually spec'ed at 700 nits. Some go higher and so go lower. They should probably start their roll-off around 200-300 nits. I know one brand of OLED that tracks PQ much higher and their highlights look more clipped. A couple of others start much sooner. I can't say one is right and one is wrong since there is no standard for tone mapping HDR. I can say that Dolby Vision's tone mapping manages to preserve everything up to 940 nicely.

The PQ tracking boxes use a single pixel checkerboard. They are an approximation because some displays can't resolve single pixel checkers, like LCoS. The best way to know is to measure the display using software and a colorimeter. I have a Sony Z9D LCD and an LG C9. The C9 handles single pixel checker just fine with the Sony does not. We have also looked at the Sony OLEDs and they are just like the Z9D. So some LCDs can handle single pixel checker and some cannot. Same for OLED. I have a Samsung DLP projector and its single pixel is perfect. It is an HD SDR display though, so only HD patterns can be used on it to evaluate single pixel checker.

Long story short, in SDR, you want to see all the boxes, in HDR you can't until you have a true 10K display.

We have added a lower nit level option for projectors on the future update based on feedback from Kris Deering, which we consider a projector guru. Myself, I am dumping the projector for an 88" OLED. A bit smaller, but I want HDR in my theater.

The banding you see in blue is because something is clipping in YCbCr before converting to RGB. That is bad practice. If they are going to clip, it should be done after conversion to RGB.

For the color space conversion. I have not seen a single consumer display show that correctly in HDR10. I have seen it show correctly in SDR and Dolby Vision. I have also seen it shown correctly on the Sony X300 grading monitor in HDR10.

Normally you want to output YCbCr in 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 at 10 or 12-bit. RGB should be avoided in most cases. The reason is the first thing a display does with RGB is to convert it back into YCbCr and often 4:2:2 since some steps in the pipeline are often limited to 4:2:2 to save money. I would use 10-bit 4:2:2 as a starting point.

Looks like your LCD is rated at 400 nits. The 600 nits patterns would be the closest to that range and is what I would use. 400 nits is code value 636 in 10-bit to give you an idea. I would not pull contrast down from default in HDR mode on it. You will get less than 400 nits.

How do the same patterns in SDR look on your displays?

The Panasonic player should be fine. I have the UB900 and 9000.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark

Last edited by sspears; 01-18-2020 at 09:45 AM.
sspears is offline  
post #686 of 748 Old 01-20-2020, 03:47 AM
Senior Member
 
mombasa123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Until a true 10,000 nit HDR display exists, the patterns will never display correctly. This is why we say not to touch contrast in HDR, it simply lowers the light output and should not bring back any detail.
Another v informative post Stacy!

Question re your Contrast statement above. As you know, Samsung QLED don't follow the EOTF curve correctly so I lower contrast to match depending on the nits of the source (42 for 1K nits, 46 for 4k nits). Typically the QLED's inflate the curve around the 50% grayscale mark.

Should I really not be doing that and leave Contrast at 50 even though I am getting pinks at that level too?

PS, this is for non HDR10+ and DV material ie static metadata. I guess for those, one would leave Contrast to default as each frame will have its own metadata?
mombasa123 is offline  
post #687 of 748 Old 01-20-2020, 07:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Another v informative post Stacy!

Question re your Contrast statement above. As you know, Samsung QLED don't follow the EOTF curve correctly so I lower contrast to match depending on the nits of the source (42 for 1K nits, 46 for 4k nits). Typically the QLED's inflate the curve around the 50% grayscale mark.

Should I really not be doing that and leave Contrast at 50 even though I am getting pinks at that level too?

PS, this is for non HDR10+ and DV material ie static metadata. I guess for those, one would leave Contrast to default as each frame will have its own metadata?
Measurements? What do you mean by don't follow PQ correctly? How are you verifying this? Via measurement or the PQ tracing pattern?

HDR10/10+ use the same tone mapping algorithm and go through the same pipeline, 10+ provides additional information for tone mapping. They really share the same calibration. Dolby Vision is another matter and has its own memory and processing pipeline. With the montage on the disc and a Sony Z9D, you have to lower contrast in Dolby Vision because highlights actually clip. You can see this with the horses in the snow shot. Its the only HDR display I have encountered that does this. I have heard newer Sony displays don't behave this way, but have not verified it myself.

We were in the middle of adding autocal to Samsung when they provided a FW update that changed the brightness control from a real brightness control to whatever it is they do now. (This was 2017 models) I also recall we had to set contrast to max during calibration and lower it afterwords. This might have been for SDR. Its been a few years. I assume this is covered in the CalMAN autocal for Samsung. Assuming it is still required.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #688 of 748 Old 01-20-2020, 08:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AnotherDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,616
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1118 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Spoiler!


We were in the middle of adding autocal to Samsung when they provided a FW update that changed the brightness control from a real brightness control to whatever it is they do now. (This was 2017 models) I also recall we had to set contrast to max during calibration and lower it afterwords. This might have been for SDR. Its been a few years. I assume this is covered in the CalMAN autocal for Samsung. Assuming it is still required.
Thanks Stacey. I noticed a noticeable lowering of SDR white level with the last 2018 Q9FN firmware, not sure about HDR. So now you're saying the brightness control may be some kind of hybrid? Yikes.

---------------------------------------
Samsung 75Q9FN, Pioneer UDP-LX500, Outlaw 975, Sony TA-N9000ES
C6-HDR, VideoForge Pro, CalMAN Home Enthusiast, Win 10 Pro x64 1909
HT Enthusiast Extended Custom WF v22.0.0 - 1/8/2020
HT Enthusiast Essentials Custom WF v1.2.0 - 7/5/2019
AnotherDude is offline  
post #689 of 748 Old 01-20-2020, 09:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Thanks Stacey. I noticed a noticeable lowering of SDR white level with the last 2018 Q9FN firmware, not sure about HDR. So now you're saying the brightness control may be some kind of hybrid? Yikes.
The brightness control change was back in 2017. Nothing recent. The control was something like +/-5 vs. a normal range.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #690 of 748 Old 01-20-2020, 09:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AnotherDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,616
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1118 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The brightness control change was back in 2017. Nothing recent. The control was something like +/-5 vs. a normal range.
Ahh! It's like that now. Big jumps -5 to +5, a pain when calibrating. Anything to make our life more interesting

Thanks! I always wondered. Same for Gamma adjustment. I imagine they gave no explanation.

---------------------------------------
Samsung 75Q9FN, Pioneer UDP-LX500, Outlaw 975, Sony TA-N9000ES
C6-HDR, VideoForge Pro, CalMAN Home Enthusiast, Win 10 Pro x64 1909
HT Enthusiast Extended Custom WF v22.0.0 - 1/8/2020
HT Enthusiast Essentials Custom WF v1.2.0 - 7/5/2019
AnotherDude is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Tags
s&m manual

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off