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post #721 of 746 Old 02-28-2020, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Based on this, and if you have on your streaming box YCbCr 420 or 444 as a choice to send which would you use?


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420 is probably never good to send as you can't signal the chroma location, which can be different. IF those are the only two options, I would go with 444. But 444 vs. 422 needs to be tested as does 10 and 12-bit. In theory they should all be identical. In practice, anything can happen.
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post #722 of 746 Old 02-28-2020, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
420 is probably never good to send as you can't signal the chroma location, which can be different. IF those are the only two options, I would go with 444. But 444 vs. 422 needs to be tested as does 10 and 12-bit. In theory they should all be identical. In practice, anything can happen.
Well my main concern is letting the ATV upconvert 420 distributed signal to 444 then send it to to the TV or let the TV handle the upconverting.

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post #723 of 746 Old 02-28-2020, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Well my main concern is letting the ATV upconvert 420 distributed signal to 444 then send it to to the TV or let the TV handle the upconverting.

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Since you can't specify the chroma co-siting over HDMI, sending 420 may result in the wrong upsampling, which causes a half a pixel shift vertically between luma and chroma. Because of this, 420 should be avoided over HDMI. Its hard enough for a display or BD player to get this right when they have the flag information.

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post #724 of 746 Old 02-28-2020, 08:53 AM
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Hmm. I have my own Apple TV set to 420. Guess it’s time to change it!
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post #725 of 746 Old 02-28-2020, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Since you can't specify the chroma co-siting over HDMI, sending 420 may result in the wrong upsampling, which causes a half a pixel shift vertically between luma and chroma. Because of this, 420 should be avoided over HDMI. Its hard enough for a display or BD player to get this right when they have the flag information.
That's interesting and thank you. I recently switched to 420 because an app, FuboTV which send 720p 30fps on some channels, had weird motion studdering that I could not deal with. Changing it to 420 removed this awful motion studdering.

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post #726 of 746 Old 02-28-2020, 07:27 PM
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I need a quick refresher. Setting a device, be it a streaming box or player, to 4:4:4 basically means the Display need to do more of the conversion work, correct?
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post #727 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 07:47 AM
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I need a quick refresher. Setting a device, be it a streaming box or player, to 4:4:4 basically means the Display need to do more of the conversion work, correct?
In a perfect world it would mean less. All of our sources today are 420. That needs to be converted to 422, 444 and then RGB. However, many ASICS work in 422, so if you send in RGB it may get converted back to YCbCr and even 422.

We talk about some of this in our choosing a color space article.

Using the LG as an example, even sending in 422 is greatly improved if you set the display to PC / 444 mode in terms of chroma resolution. Of course the bit depth is reduced in this mode, which is too bad. But while in this mode several options are disabled. I believe those options are all done in 422, which is why they get disabled.
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post #728 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
In a perfect world it would mean less. All of our sources today are 420. That needs to be converted to 422, 444 and then RGB. However, many ASICS work in 422, so if you send in RGB it may get converted back to YCbCr and even 422.

We talk about some of this in our choosing a color space article.

Using the LG as an example, even sending in 422 is greatly improved if you set the display to PC / 444 mode in terms of chroma resolution. Of course the bit depth is reduced in this mode, which is too bad. But while in this mode several options are disabled. I believe those options are all done in 422, which is why they get disabled.
Darn. I thought I was starting to understand this but it looks like I got it backwards...again. I'll start by saying this is a subject that for whatever reason, I have just had the hardest time getting my head around so please bear that in mind.

I know that sources are 420 so why is that not a good option to set the Apple TV to? If sources are 420 and you start with that, wouldn't that match up things 1:1 and thus make it...simpler?

I saw your post above replying to someone else and you had said given the choice between 420 or 444, 444 is the better choice.

I have an LG C8 and my only other source is a Panasonic UB820 and that also only gives me the choice of 420 or 444 and for that of course, I have it set to 444.

Interesting note about the Apple TV. (Mine is the 4K box, by the way.) I have mine set to SDR 4K with Match Range and Frame rate ON. In this mode, the only chroma options are 420 or 444. However, if I choose it to outupt 4K HDR, the chroma options become 422 or 420. I wont even pretend to know why this is. Would I be better off outputting the 4K signal at all times and choosing 422?

I had switch my Apple TV to default to SDR awhile ago due to an app I was using that did not flag itself to turn off HDR (since it wasn't an HDR app.) I no longer use that app but had decided to keep the ATV in 4K SDR since I just don't need my Apple TV menus in 4K all the time and that I was better off leaving it in SDR and having HDR kick on when it needs to via automatic detection. Figured it was better wear and tear on my C8 as well. I wouldn't be opposed to switching it back to HDR 4K if 422 is a better chroma setting to use.

An interesting thought I just had. Since the apple TV offers different chroma options depending on whether you have it set to SDR or HDR, what happens when you use content that switches the Dynamic range fom say SDR to HDR or even HDR to SDR? If you had chosen your chroma as 444, in SDR mode, when HDR content kicks in does it stay at 444 or switch to something else? When I have my ATV set to 4K SDR 420 and watch something in Dolby Vision isn't DV 10 bits? But 420 is 8 correct?

What is ASICS by the way? (Besides a shoe of course.) Haha.
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post #729 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 09:41 AM
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Darn. I thought I was starting to understand this but it looks like I got it backwards...again. I'll start by saying this is a subject that for whatever reason, I have just had the hardest time getting my head around so please bear that in mind.

I know that sources are 420 so why is that not a good option to set the Apple TV to? If sources are 420 and you start with that, wouldn't that match up things 1:1 and thus make it...simpler?
Because there's no way of telling the TV, over hdmi, which type of 4:2:0 it is. For some scenarios, the chroma information is half-a-pixel shifted, and for others, it's not.

This means that if you were to send this over HDMI, the TV wouldn't know which it was, and the picture would easily be wrong. Also, 4:2:0 isn't possible in many HDMI modes anyway (please look at the link in my sig) - for example, you can't have 10bit 4k24 4:2:0, which is the format 4k blu-rays use. I used to think the same, wishing there was a HDMI mode for that.

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I saw your post above replying to someone else and you had said given the choice between 420 or 444, 444 is the better choice.

I have an LG C8 and my only other source is a Panasonic UB820 and that also only gives me the choice of 420 or 444 and for that of course, I have it set to 444.
Good call. Remember, when expanding 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 you are asking it to fill in the colours that were removed for the lossy compression. It has to determine which colours to assign to each pixel, and it's not lossless compression so there are choices to be made. The processing to do this in the UB820 is better than in the TV.

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What is ASICS by the way? (Besides a shoe of course.) Haha.
An ASIC, or application-specific integrated circuit, is a microchip designed for a, erm, specific application. . In this case video processing.

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post #730 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 09:45 AM
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Because there's no way of telling the TV, over hdmi, which type of 4:2:0

I didn't realize there was more than one type of 4:2:0! Can you elaborate?

To simply this, it sounds like my Apple TV, if kept in SDR 4K output, is better of set to 444.
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post #731 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 10:07 AM
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I didn't realize there was more than one type of 4:2:0! Can you elaborate?
I just did! For some scenarios, the chroma information is half-a-pixel shifted, and for others, it's not. That's two types right there. This means that if you were to send this over HDMI, the TV wouldn't know which it was, and the picture would easily be wrong.
HTH

Random link from googling, quoted with my emphasis:
https://questtel.com/wiki/chroma-sub-mapping-types
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Cb and Cr are each subsampled at a factor of 2 both horizontally and vertically. There are three variants of 4:2:0 schemes, that are sited differently both horizontally and vertically.
  • In MPEG-2, Cb and Cr are co-sited horizontally. Cb and Cr are sited between pixels in the vertical direction (sited interstitially).
  • In JPEG/JFIF, H.261, and MPEG-1, Cb and Cr are sited interstitially, halfway between alternate luma samples.
  • In 4:2:0 DV, Cb and Cr are co-sited in the horizontal direction. In the vertical direction, they are co-sited on alternating lines. The PAL and SECAM color systems are especially well-suited to this kind of data reduction. Most digital video formats corresponding to PAL use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling.

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post #732 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 10:11 AM
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Ah ok. Thank you. I read your message too fast not realizing you were actually explaining it.
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post #733 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 10:15 AM
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Ah ok. Thank you. I read your message too fast not realizing you were actually explaining it.
Heh no worries, and now you're replied too fast before I'd finished editing that one up there ^^

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post #734 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 10:55 AM
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You’re right. I didn’t see your had edited it. Thank you.

So on the Apple TV given the choice between 420 and 444 that 444 is the better option. But am I better of outputting my Apple TV in HDR and choosing 422?
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post #735 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 08:58 PM
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You’re right. I didn’t see your had edited it. Thank you.



So on the Apple TV given the choice between 420 and 444 that 444 is the better option. But am I better of outputting my Apple TV in HDR and choosing 422?
HDR is Full RGB, 444 is the best. Only disc requires conversion from 420 to 444 by the display. Streaming, conversion isn't required or necessary and you don't want to bottleneck the color information that was graded at 444.

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post #736 of 746 Old 02-29-2020, 09:01 PM
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444 it is. Thank you, sir!
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post #737 of 746 Old 03-01-2020, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I didn't realize there was more than one type of 4:2:0! Can you elaborate?

To simply this, it sounds like my Apple TV, if kept in SDR 4K output, is better of set to 444.
There are a dozen different 4:2:0 versions, but most of the content you consume from DVD, BD, streaming services there are two. The 709 style that has the chroma samples in between (interstitial) the luma samples in the vertical direction and the 2020 style that has the chroma samples aligned with the luma in the vertical direction. (Co-sited)

Here is a visual representation of them: (The white circles represent luma and the red squares represent chroma)


Now, you can encode 709 with 2020 co-siting and 2020 w/ 709 co-siting. it is a flag in the bitstream you set. I know a streaming provide that would signal 2020 co-siting and then actually use 709 because they knew TVs did not use the correct upsampling at the time. Personally I think that was mistake, but it is what it is.

On many TVs over the last few years, if you play content from a USB stick, it was wrong. They always assumed 709. For UHD BD, the first gen Samsung used 709 while OPPO and Panasonic honored the flags. I don't know if Samsung ever fixed it. The Xbox One also uses 709 for everything and is wrong.
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post #738 of 746 Old 03-01-2020, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
HDR is Full RGB, 444 is the best. Only disc requires conversion from 420 to 444 by the display. Streaming, conversion isn't required or necessary and you don't want to bottleneck the color information that was graded at 444.

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I might be misunderstanding you, but ALL streaming content (Apple TV+, Netflix, Disney+, Amazon, Hulu, Vudu, etc...) is all 4:2:0. Nothing that is compressed is delivered as 4:4:4. Either the source, such as an Apple TV, or the display must convert to RGB before viewing.
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
I might be misunderstanding you, but ALL streaming content (Apple TV+, Netflix, Disney+, Amazon, Hulu, Vudu, etc...) is all 4:2:0. Nothing that is compressed is delivered as 4:4:4. Either the source, such as an Apple TV, or the display must convert to RGB before viewing.
I wanted to go back and change it, but a correction from professional source was more desirable. Thanks.

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Does that change anything regarding setting the Apple TV to 444 or is that still the best option?
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Does that change anything regarding setting the Apple TV to 444 or is that still the best option?
Perhaps a recap, if I may

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420 is probably never good to send as you can't signal the chroma location, which can be different. IF those are the only two options, I would go with 444. But 444 vs. 422 needs to be tested as does 10 and 12-bit. In theory they should all be identical. In practice, anything can happen.
This is still the case

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Since you can't specify the chroma co-siting over HDMI, sending 420 may result in the wrong upsampling, which causes a half a pixel shift vertically between luma and chroma. Because of this, 420 should be avoided over HDMI. Its hard enough for a display or BD player to get this right when they have the flag information.
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Interesting note about the Apple TV. (Mine is the 4K box, by the way.) I have mine set to SDR 4K with Match Range and Frame rate ON. In this mode, the only chroma options are 420 or 444.
that's a slam dunk then, of those two, since you can't specify the chroma co-siting over HDMI, choose 444.

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However, if I choose it to outupt 4K HDR, the chroma options become 422 or 420. I wont even pretend to know why this is. Would I be better off outputting the 4K signal at all times and choosing 422?
IMHO no, because that's horrible. That tells the Apple to up-convert everything to HDR and force the TV into HDR mode for all SDR content.

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I had switch my Apple TV to default to SDR awhile ago due to an app I was using that did not flag itself to turn off HDR (since it wasn't an HDR app.) I no longer use that app but had decided to keep the ATV in 4K SDR since I just don't need my Apple TV menus in 4K all the time and that I was better off leaving it in SDR and having HDR kick on when it needs to via automatic detection. Figured it was better wear and tear on my C8 as well.
Absolutely correct. Vincent Teoh has done videos on the subject.

I see 4 possibilities.

Not recommended:
  • You set to 4:2:0. The chroma placement can't be signalled over HDMI (see Stacey's graphics). The LG has no choice but to guess. It guesses correctly for SDR, and for HDR! You've won the lottery!
  • You set to 4:2:0. The chroma placement can't be signalled over HDMI (see Stacey's graphics). The LG has no choice but to guess. It guesses wrongly for SDR and/or HDR.

Recommended:
  • You set to 4:4:4. The Apple correctly decodes the chroma information for both SDR and HDR (see Stacey's comments about Blu-Ray players getting it wrong, and streaming providers deliberately lying in their flags). It sends the correct video over HDMI. You've won!
  • You set to 4:4:4. The Apple wrongly decodes the chroma information for both SDR and HDR (see Stacey's comments about Blu-Ray players getting it wrong, and streaming providers deliberately lying in their flags). It sends the wrong video over over HDMI. Bad luck, but maybe a firmware upgrade will fix it.

Best (IMHO):
Always try to use an internal app on the TV to avoid decoding to HDMI and then back from HDMI in the TV. That's two extra conversions and chances for errors. You are then "only" depending on the TV's firmware getting right, which of course isn't a given either!

As you can see, the odds are stacked against us - especially if the streaming providers lie right back at the source. But, I would set 4:4:4 as it is clear the least risky.
HTH

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post #742 of 746 Old 03-02-2020, 07:26 AM
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Best (IMHO):
Always try to use an internal app on the TV to avoid decoding to HDMI and then back from HDMI in the TV. That's two extra conversions and chances for errors. You are then "only" depending on the TV's firmware getting right, which of course isn't a given either!
Recently I ran into something interesting on my C9. The CBS All Access app in the LG only offers SDR. If you use CBS All Access through the Apple TV+ app in the TV or an Apple TV box, then you can watch Picard in HDR.

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Recently I ran into something interesting on my C9. The CBS All Access app in the LG only offers SDR. If you use CBS All Access through the Apple TV+ app in the TV or an Apple TV box, then you can watch Picard in HDR.
Absolutely, yes. What I wrote was "all things being equal". There can be differences with SDR/HDR, or which flavour of HDR (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HDR10+; no one will ever use the stillborn SL-HDR so no need to worry about that one ), or Atmos / no Atmos.

Here in the UK, Amazon have screwed us over and despite always offering 4K HDR for many things, they are only giving us Picard in SDR. And that's 1080p SDR. Absolutely disgusting. (#1stWorldProblems)

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post #744 of 746 Old 03-02-2020, 10:55 AM
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Good morning!

I wanted to thank you for this recap post. I was VERY helpful and informative. I know what I need to do. Just have a few follow up things:


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
IMHO no, because that's horrible. That tells the Apple to up-convert everything to HDR and force the TV into HDR mode for all SDR content.
Completely understand your point but to be fair, at least in my case, mine fortunately never did this with regards to it converting SDR to HDR when I had the Apple TV set to output HDR by default. It worked correctly in that it would switch content to SDR where applicable, with the exception of YouTubeTV which we were trying out but ultimately dropped. All my other SDR apps would switch to SDR correctly as needed. Even stll, I do prefer to have it output SDR by default and switch to HDR as needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Vincent Teoh has done videos on the subject.

Do you happen to know which video(s)? I did a search on all the videos he has done on Apple TV but none clearly seemed to talk about this topic. I would really like to watch that video.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Always try to use an internal app on the TV to avoid decoding to HDMI and then back from HDMI in the TV. That's two extra conversions and chances for errors. You are then "only" depending on the TV's firmware getting right, which of course isn't a given either!
It hadn't even occurred to me for whatever reason that using the TV apps avoids all this.

Definitely a good idea but we (My family) honestly love the simplicity of the Apple TV. It was something I hesitated to buy for a long time but when I finally did, I was glad. To be totally honest, the Apple TV's quality output isn't THAT vital to me as it's mostly used to stream my kids' shows and some TV shows we watch. (All of our TV watching is now 100% steaming apps.) My movie watching is 99% disc based and will be so as long as possible. Still, if I can select the best settings for my Apple TV, I want to of course.

Again, thank you so much for all your time on this topic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Recently I ran into something interesting on my C9. The CBS All Access app in the LG only offers SDR. If you use CBS All Access through the Apple TV+ app in the TV or an Apple TV box, then you can watch Picard in HDR.
I think mine is the same way, except in my case it's the C8. I noticed the CBS App on the LG wasn't in Dolby Vision for Picard but it is on Apple TV.
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post #745 of 746 Old 03-02-2020, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Do you happen to know which video(s)? I did a search on all the videos he has done on Apple TV but none clearly seemed to talk about this topic. I would really like to watch that video.
Surprised you couldn't find these! First, it's mentioned in the unboxing (of course, firmware changes may have changed things since) video, at this timestamp.
Spoiler!


Then, the main longer explanation:
Spoiler!


Then it's mentioned in these tips- I'll make you watch all of that one, and not spoon-feed you the timestamp . The other tips may help you anyway.
Spoiler!


We now return hopefully to discussion of the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc
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HDMI 2.0 4K modes | Dolby & DTS core+outer audio tracks on (UHD) Blu-Rays | Hello to Jason Isaacs
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post #746 of 746 Old 03-06-2020, 11:37 AM
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My copy of your disc just arrived yesterday, I hope to have some time this weekend to verify my settings. I own an Epson 5040 paired with the UB820, do you have a recommendation of the settings I need to ensure are set, before getting started?

Epson5040UB - DragonFly DFM Tab 92HC High Contrast (.9 gain) 16:9 Screen - Denon AVRS740H - Klipsch Quintet V +
Klipsch KHC-6 In-Ceiling (Atmos 5.1.2) with SVS PB-1000 - Panasonic UB820 - PS3
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