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post #901 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyClyde1115 View Post
I saw this question and answer linked on another thread, so sorry for bringing up an old post. I was curious if this bug that’s mentioned by sspears is only on the Oppo 203, or if it affects all Dolby Vision capable UHD players?

I am in the middle of reading and trying out this new Dolby Vision trick that lets you watch it on any HDR display. So far it looks great and is an awesome trick people really should check out. It uses the player led version so I’m wondering if this is affected? I use a Sony X800/M2 now. I sold my 203 a few months ago, unfortunately.
All UHD BD players.

The OPPO has its set of issues like cropped pixels and incorrect chroma alignment. Panasonic does not have those issues, but has chroma ringing. I would like to get a Sony and see how it performs.

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post #902 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
NDAs prevent me from sharing specifics, sorry. We provided the tools and were hoping a reviewer would have seen it by now and written about it. It is a source side issue and not specific to OPPO on BD.

Always use TV-led on the OPPO, or any source if it is an option. If the display does not support it, the OPPO will simply fall back to player-led. The OPPO UI will not reflect this. When I tested the B7, it would use player-led if the OPPO was set to OPPO. Manually select TV-led and don't use auto. I would never use auto for any video setting. Auto is not about best image quality, it is about best compatibility. Auto uses the mode that results in the fewest number of support calls. Support calls cost a company money.

I know the LGs support TV-led. I believe the 2020 Panasonic OLED also supports it, but really need to visually verify. I know the Sony Z9D does not support it. I don't know about others as I have not tested them.

There are seven shots in the montage where you can see the difference. Set OPPO to player-led and compare against HDR10 on your C9.

The fade-up is smooth for me on the C9 when playing DV. When I play HDR10, I can see concentric bands (like an onion) from banding. The banding you see is not in the source. There is a short fade from black and then its also a time lapse sunrise on top of that.
I'm assuming you meant to say the "Auto" setting when tested on the LG B7?
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post #903 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by oniiz View Post
I'm assuming you meant to say the "Auto" setting when tested on the LG B7?
Yes, thank you for catching that. I have corrected it.

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post #904 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
NDAs prevent me from sharing specifics, sorry. We provided the tools and were hoping a reviewer would have seen it by now and written about it. It is a source side issue and not specific to OPPO on BD.



Always use TV-led on the OPPO, or any source if it is an option. If the display does not support it, the OPPO will simply fall back to player-led. The OPPO UI will not reflect this. When I tested the B7, it would use player-led if the OPPO was set to auto. Manually select TV-led and don't use auto. I would never use auto for any video setting. Auto is not about best image quality, it is about best compatibility. Auto uses the mode that results in the fewest number of support calls. Support calls cost a company money.



I know the LGs support TV-led. I believe the 2020 Panasonic OLED also supports it, but really need to visually verify. I know the Sony Z9D does not support it. I don't know about others as I have not tested them.



There are seven shots in the montage where you can see the difference. Set OPPO to player-led and compare against HDR10 on your C9.



The fade-up is smooth for me on the C9 when playing DV. When I play HDR10, I can see concentric bands (like an onion) from banding. The banding you see is not in the source. There is a short fade from black and then its also a time lapse sunrise on top of that.
So basically anything pertaining to video settings ie ps4 panny ub820 etc the user should never use any auto settings at all? Manually forcing whichever setting that is correct ie black levels should be set to low instead of auto or resolution should be set to 4k if watching 4k content instead of auto etc. ?

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post #905 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by macmane View Post
So basically anything pertaining to video settings ie ps4 panny ub820 etc the user should never use any auto settings at all? Manually forcing whichever setting that is correct ie black levels should be set to low instead of auto or resolution should be set to 4k if watching 4k content instead of auto etc. ?

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The important ones are color space, bit depth and Dolby Vision mode.

Full vs. limited range is normally one of the RGB options in the color space output settings. RGB is usually the lowest quality mode into a display because the first thing a display does on input is to convert to YCbCr, often 4:2:2. Converting chroma up and down may degrade it.

Because the video source material is normally 4:2:0, I usually start with 10-bit 4:2:2. If the source device converts to 4:4:4 no matter what, like Xbox, then converting back to 4:2:2 in the source will degrade the image. Xbox really does a number on chroma resolution. PS4 does not support UHD BD, so I don't know how well it does as I don't have one.

For resolution, OPPO has a source direct mode which ensures the source native resolution is sent out. This is what I would use if I had an external video processor. If you don't have one, then you would want to test the source vs. the display and see which does a better job scaling other resolutions (SD and HD) to UHD.

Panasonic does not have a source direct mode, so normally you use the player to scale.

All 4:2:0 sources will end up on screen as RGB in the end so all outputs should result in the same image, but they don't always, which is why I test to find out what produces the best results. Most of these issues are a result of the enhancement processing in a display. A lot of that is done in 4:2:2. Even in the off position, they still convert to 4:2:2 to avoid a mode switch (image might go black for a moment or distort) should the user decide to turn them on. They like to have that stuff on and they don't want to customer to see a mode switch.
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post #906 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 02:20 PM
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Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
All UHD BD players.



The OPPO has its set of issues like cropped pixels and incorrect chroma alignment. Panasonic does not have those issues, but has chroma ringing. I would like to get a Sony and see how it performs.
Thank you!

You said all UHD BD players, but then said you wanted to get a Sony to try out. Have you tested the Sonys too. Can you clarify?
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post #907 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 04:37 PM
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I have a panny ub820 and an lg cx should I set it to 12 bit priority or 10 bit priority?

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post #908 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmane View Post
I have a panny ub820 and an lg cx should I set it to 12 bit priority or 10 bit priority?

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You have to look for differences in PQ. Like color banding, posterization, loss of detail.

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post #909 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyClyde1115 View Post
Thank you!

You said all UHD BD players, but then said you wanted to get a Sony to try out. Have you tested the Sonys too. Can you clarify?
I have not tested the Sony UHD BD player for basic image quality properties like:
1. Image cropping
2. Chroma alignment
3. Chroma upsampling quality.
4. I need to measure the player using the monotonicity pattern (YCbCr) with an HDMI Analyzer to know if it correctly reproduces all values from 4-1019 in Y, Cb and Cr.

Number 3 is subjective. Luma (Y) is 3840x2160 for UHD. Chroma (Cb and Cr) is 1920x1080 in 4:2:0 for UHD. Chroma is 1920x2160 in 4:2:2 for UHD. And chroma is 3840x2160 in 4:4:4 for UHD. Chroma upsampling is really chroma scaling. How good is the scaling? Does it ring when it scales it up? Is it sharp or soft? Many players use bilinear, which is softer but does not ring. OPPO appears to use something like bilinear. Panasonic UB9000 uses something sharper and has some ringing. This is no different than resizing an image using bilinear vs. Lanczos other than its difficult to discern chroma issues on normal content, which is why they can get away with 4:2:0. You look for the same type of differences. It is usually a comprise of sharpness vs. ringing. There are some pretty great chroma upsampling algorithms that people have written on Windows. To be clear, not stock Windows and the built-in media players don't use them. 3rd parties like MadVR and others.

This is where the chroma resolution patterns come in handy. If you use a WFM, you can see how well the player does. If you look at them on a display, you don't know if it is the player, display or both causing quality loss. LG has a true 4:4:4 mode, which shows the best chroma I have seen on a display. Sadly, in 4:4:4 mode, bit-depth drops and banding is painfully obvious. On the quantization rotate pattern, the 10-bit bottom looks just like the 8-bit top. In the normal mode, 10-bit is much smoother. The Z9D has some pretty bad chroma roll-off. If you look at the chroma zone plate, the center third is noticeably brighter than the left or right side thirds. Center is the lowest frequency and it goes higher towards the edge. When it gets dimmer, that detail is rolling off or being filtered out. On the LG in 4:4:4 mode, its equally bright across the entire image, hence my comment about it being the best I have seen. In normal mode, it is dimmer on the outer thirds, but still brighter than the Z9D. Keep in mind, the source material is 4:2:0, so scaling up and down (4:2:0 -> 4:4:4 -> 4:2:2 -> 4:4:4) may degrade the image. And some may filter on purpose based on their subjective opinion.

If you look at the chroma of Panasonic vs. OPPO into the LG when it is in 4:4:4 mode, you can see Panasonic is brighter towards the edges than OPPO. That means more chroma detail. Will you see this in real world material? If anything, possibly animation like Pixar. The test pattern is designed to make the most subtle difference stand out.

You can see examples of this in our Choosing a Color Space article using the Color Space Evaluation pattern.

Brighter is not always better. Nearest Neighbor will be the brightest, but will be out of alignment. (YC delay)
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post #910 of 921 Old 05-23-2020, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmane View Post
I have a panny ub820 and an lg cx should I set it to 12 bit priority or 10 bit priority?

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I don't have a CX, so I don't know. That has new processing compared to the C9.

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post #911 of 921 Old 05-24-2020, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The fade-up is smooth for me on the C9 when playing DV. When I play HDR10, I can see concentric bands (like an onion) from banding. The banding you see is not in the source. There is a short fade from black and then its also a time lapse sunrise on top of that.
Thanks Stacey!!! I understand about the NDAs. I'm indirectly affected by some in my line of work as well. Part of the reason I was asking is because I did originally notice this issue due to the concentric bands (like an onion) in Player Led, but recently re-evaluating that I've found that banding seems nearly absent in Player Led compared to what I remember seeing before. I assume this is due to the C9 doing a better job of handling/supporting Player LED processing with the current software (04.71.25), than with the software in use when I noticed it before (last August I believe).

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post #912 of 921 Old 05-24-2020, 01:48 AM
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Here is a Dolby Vision 2.9 version of our dynamic range low pattern. This is profile 7 in an mp4, which is probably not really a supported scenario. However, it works for my testing and development. I know it works from a USB stick directly into an LG as well as through an OPPO.

The reason I am sharing this is that there seems to be some belief that after a Calman calibration everything below 3% is clipped or crushed and that is not true at all. This goes up to code value 100. Code value 99 is 4%. Code value 82 is be 2%. The pattern goes from code value 4 through 100. If I turn brightness up on the LG C9, I can see it goes to 64, which is 0%.
Stacey, I'm getting significantly different results on your DNL pattern running on a USB directly into C9 than I am running it via USB though the Oppo UDP-203. Directly on the C9 I'm seeing everything down through 65-68 (depending on picture mode, calibrated vs. uncalibrated, etc.). USB via the UDP-203, I'm only able to see down though 81 (calibrated Cinema DV PM). Everything below that is in black. That remains the same whether in TV Led or Player Led (just checked as an experiment). I also brought Brightness up to 65 to see if I could see any bars below 81. I couldn't. Pulsar Black and OLED UHDA blocks are not visible. (I wasn't expecting this difference.)

Using Ryan Masciola's DVS Black Clipping patterns seems to behave just the opposite. Directly on USB to the C9, everything below 3.1%/32 drops into total black (calibrated Cinema DV PM). USB through the UDP-203, everything down through 0.8%/8 is visible (also calibrated Cinema DV mode) TV Led. However with Player Led only down through 2.7%./28 is visible (again just as an experiment). Of course these patterns also seem to perform significantly differently between calibrated and uncalibrated (as previously discussed). I mention this about Ryan's patterns because it seems to indicate the near black performance of Dolby Vision being all over the place. I'm not sure whether any of that has any relation to the differences I'm seeing in your DNL pattern between the C9 and UDP-203.

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@sspears I didn't get a chance to borrow my brothers UHD Bluray player, but what I did discover with the LG UP970. Is that the color space is intentionally or unintentionally HDR platform specific atleast in the player it is.

The player set to RGB, DV pops with great HDR dynamic range, color and depth. HDR10 is desaturated and lacks other HDR elements like deep blacks, but bright highlights are there, but the contrast isn't there. Switching to YCbCr and HDR10 looks great.

So the gamut issues I was having are related to color space settings. This may as well explain color space conversion performance.

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post #914 of 921 Old 05-28-2020, 06:03 AM
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DV TV led and player led

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyClyde1115 View Post
I saw this question and answer linked on another thread, so sorry for bringing up an old post. I was curious if this bug that’s mentioned by sspears is only on the Oppo 203, or if it affects all Dolby Vision capable UHD players?

I am in the middle of reading and trying out this new Dolby Vision trick that lets you watch it on any HDR display. So far it looks great and is an awesome trick people really should check out. It uses the player led version so I’m wondering if this is affected? I use a Sony X800/M2 now. I sold my 203 a few months ago, unfortunately.
@KC-Technerd also

It doesn't seem that a lot of mid range players have this manual selection for TV led and player led. I have the Sony X800-M2 and it does not seem to have it. Reviewing the manual of the Panasonic UB-820 it does not seem to have it. For a particular TV, if it can do TV led, it seems it should tell the player to revert to TV led? But in the case of at least the LG C9 it is not? To see if a particular player / TV combination that doesn't have a manual selection is different, one can still compare the USB input to the TV in DV to the USB input to the player for the defect that you are looking for. I am interested in any results.
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Which display is that? The tone mapping is not very good. I assume that is the 10,000 nit version. How does the 1000 nit version look?

Windows 10 is the worst I have see. I have attached three examples of Windows 10.
no its the 1000 version

65pfl5602/f7 got it from walmart $325 cnd no complaints at all. kodi hdr looks fine colors less saturated than sdr but looks more realistic
at this point i see no point in adjusting hdr without a meter i just leave on movie preset and disable all enhancements and set back light to max on sdr i have it set to movie and i up the brightness 2 notches during day leave it on default at night contrast at 90 from default 85 and backlight i run at 20/30 at night 25/30 during the day gamma set to normal during day and dark room at night
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post #916 of 921 Old 05-28-2020, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by highmr View Post
For a particular TV, if it can do TV led, it seems it should tell the player to revert to TV led
Based on how other aspects function this is what I would expect. However, I don't know for sure that there is a provision for sharing/identifying the TV's Dolby Processing preference over HDMI. It would seem to be what the "Auto" selection on the player is intended for.

Quote:
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But in the case of at least the LG C9 it is not?
Can't tell for sure if the TV isn't properly telling the player, or if the player isn't properly responding to what the TV is telling it, or if the TV is telling the player anything at all.

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To see if a particular player / TV combination that doesn't have a manual selection is different, one can still compare the USB input to the TV in DV to the USB input to the player for the defect that you are looking for. I am interested in any results.
With the latest software on my C9 the difference is more difficult to detect than it was with an earlier software. What I can use to tell the difference now varies with other factors (such as if the TV has been calibrated). The best way to make the manual selection is to know which is intended to work with the TV you have. My understanding is that is TV Led on everything except the Sonys.

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post #917 of 921 Old 05-28-2020, 03:17 PM
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Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion

I purchased the UHD HDR Benchmark ss well. My question is. Since I calibrated the 4k aspect of my tele do I need to calibrate te UHD/HDR as well?

Decided to not calibrate the UHD SDR side. Looks wayyyyyy too complicated.


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post #918 of 921 Old 05-30-2020, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
Based on how other aspects function this is what I would expect. However, I don't know for sure that there is a provision for sharing/identifying the TV's Dolby Processing preference over HDMI. It would seem to be what the "Auto" selection on the player is intended for.

Can't tell for sure if the TV isn't properly telling the player, or if the player isn't properly responding to what the TV is telling it, or if the TV is telling the player anything at all.

With the latest software on my C9 the difference is more difficult to detect than it was with an earlier software. What I can use to tell the difference now varies with other factors (such as if the TV has been calibrated). The best way to make the manual selection is to know which is intended to work with the TV you have. My understanding is that is TV Led on everything except the Sonys.
My concern or hypothesis is that the LG should be telling the player to do TV led, but is not. Then, if a player has only auto capability, it won't be correct. Meanwhile, the internal app will be correct for DV. This may be a concern for other TVs and various players as well, but specifically it isn't clear which players can work properly (with none of these errors) with the LG OLED for DV, aside from the Oppo set to a non auto setting.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by highmr View Post
My concern or hypothesis is that the LG should be telling the player to do TV led, but is not. Then, if a player has only auto capability, it won't be correct. Meanwhile, the internal app will be correct for DV. This may be a concern for other TVs and various players as well, but specifically it isn't clear which players can work properly (with none of these errors) with the LG OLED for DV, aside from the Oppo set to a non auto setting.
You kind of expect player manufacturers to know that TV led performs better, thats where Stacey comes in and inform them and customers.

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post #920 of 921 Old 05-30-2020, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
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My concern or hypothesis is that the LG should be telling the player to do TV led, but is not.
But that's not how EDID works, AUIU.

The EDID tells the player what the TV is capable of: its full list of features. This includes "I can handle both TV led and player-led Dolby Vision".

There's no mechanism for the TV to say "...but if it's ok, I'd really prefer that you send me TV led, please forget that I can handle player-led", which is what you seem to want. You might think it "should" do that, but it's not possible unless the TV uses a fake EDID which contains lies.

It's up to the player to choose which one, or to provide a menu option for the user to choose. Not the TV!

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post #921 of 921 Old 05-30-2020, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
But that's not how EDID works, AUIU.

The EDID tells the player what the TV is capable of: its full list of features. This includes "I can handle both TV led and player-led Dolby Vision".

There's no mechanism for the TV to say "...but if it's ok, I'd really prefer that you send me TV led, please forget that I can handle player-led", which is what you seem to want. You might think it "should" do that, but it's not possible unless the TV uses a fake EDID which contains lies.

It's up to the player to choose which one, or to provide a menu option for the user to choose. Not the TV!
OK, the question stands. The auto selection in the Oppo isn't working. Seems suspect that an auto selection in any other player may not work either, but those players don't give you a choice.

Living room: Samsung PN60F8500, Sony X800M2, Roku Premiere+, Revel W763, Revel M16, Hsu HB-1 MK2, RSL C34E, Rhythmik D15SE, Denon X4200W; Zone 2: Speaker selector, Yamaha RX-V495 (1999); Bedroom: Panasonic P50U54, Oppo BDP-80, Chromecast Audio, Advent Legacy III (1994), Denon 2310ci; Cabin: Roku 3, NHT Super Zero (1996), Hsu VTF-2 MK4, Denon 1712
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