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post #1051 of 1072 Old 06-30-2020, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
If you have a Panasonic player, you might consider 4:4:4 first since their chroma upsampling preserves more chroma detail. It also has some ringing.
Are there any benefits to sending 4:4:4 if the display is going to downconvert it to 4:2:2 anyway?

The only picture mode on my Sony A9F that displays full 4:4:4 without any apparent downconversion is Graphics. Any reason you know of not to use that mode? From all appearances, it seems to be the same as Custom for Pro 1/2 in terms of image quality once all the settings are matched up, minus the ability to turn on CineMotion (which I don't need for critical viewing because I always feed the display the original frame rate). It strikes me as the mode that applies minimal, if any, processing to the incoming signal.
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post #1052 of 1072 Old 06-30-2020, 01:31 PM
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Are there any benefits to sending 4:4:4 if the display is going to downconvert it to 4:2:2 anyway?

The only picture mode on my Sony A9F that displays full 4:4:4 without any apparent downconversion is Graphics. Any reason you know of not to use that mode? From all appearances, it seems to be the same as Custom for Pro 1/2 in terms of image quality once all the settings are matched up, minus the ability to turn on CineMotion (which I don't need for critical viewing because I always feed the display the original frame rate). It strikes me as the mode that applies minimal, if any, processing to the incoming signal.
In theory, no, but it is still worth testing since you don't know if a display is converting to 4:2:2 or not.

Good to know about the graphics mode. Sometimes a PC mode my lock out certain features. As long as what you need is present, then it seems like a good way to go. Next time I look at a Sony OLED, I will take a look at graphics mode.

When you play the chroma zone plates and switch between Cinema Pro and Graphics, do you see brighter sides on the zone plate?

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post #1053 of 1072 Old 06-30-2020, 01:36 PM
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@sspears What DV/HDR10 film releases have impressed you, and is there anything you have seen that you would like to have in the montage?

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One of the clips I use to demonstrate HDR is the Great Gatsby. If you only watch HDR, then you have no idea what you are getting. Sometimes you need to view as SDR to appreciate the big improvement of HDR. HDR, like HFR and shallow depth of field is just another tool for the content creator to use to tell their story.

Would have been nice to have some fire, sparklers (4th of July) some low light dark scenes and some skin tones. The issue with the last one is usage rights.

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post #1054 of 1072 Old 06-30-2020, 05:36 PM
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In theory, no, but it is still worth testing since you don't know if a display is converting to 4:2:2 or not.

Good to know about the graphics mode. Sometimes a PC mode my lock out certain features. As long as what you need is present, then it seems like a good way to go. Next time I look at a Sony OLED, I will take a look at graphics mode.

When you play the chroma zone plates and switch between Cinema Pro and Graphics, do you see brighter sides on the zone plate?
Graphics is brighter and more uniform; Custom has darker sides and bands of color. Difficult to capture with a camera due to moiré, but I've attached them anyway (first is Custom, second is Graphics).

After further testing, I found that Graphics mode has minor vignetting on a full-field white pattern, while Custom is perfectly uniform. Doesn't seem to be noticeable in actual content. Everything else looks so good that I think I can forgive this one negative aspect to Graphics mode.
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post #1055 of 1072 Old 07-02-2020, 11:12 AM
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Here is a Dolby Vision 2.9 version of our dynamic range low pattern. This is profile 7 in an mp4, which is probably not really a supported scenario. However, it works for my testing and development. I know it works from a USB stick directly into an LG as well as through an OPPO. Playing through the Panasonic UB9000 just results in the HDR10 base layer playing. I mention profile 7 and support only because the montage will hang in certain spots on the OPPO but plays on the LG directly.



This may not play on the LG CX or at least a report from someone with a CX and C9 says it does not work on their CX but does work on their C9. It works on my C9 and Tyler's C7.



The reason I am sharing this is that there seems to be some belief that after a Calman calibration everything below 3% is clipped or crushed and that is not true at all. This goes up to code value 100. Code value 99 is 4%. Code value 82 is be 2%. The pattern goes from code value 4 through 100. If I turn brightness up on the LG C9, I can see it goes to 64, which is 0%.



Hopefully everyone finds this useful.
Yea this doesn't play on my cx either It also defaults to hdr on my panny ub820 also. I wish i knew another way to test this because of the elevated black levels with dolby vision on the cx
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post #1056 of 1072 Old 07-02-2020, 12:05 PM
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Yea this doesn't play on my cx either It also defaults to hdr on my panny ub820 also. I wish i knew another way to test this because of the elevated black levels with dolby vision on the cx
Is that all Dolby Vision content or does it depend on the source, (i.e streaming vs Bluray)?

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post #1057 of 1072 Old 07-02-2020, 12:08 PM
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Is that all Dolby Vision content or does it depend on the source, (i.e streaming vs Bluray)?

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If u are referring to the elevated black issue on the cx yes its on disks and streaming. I wanted to use the dolby vision test to see if 49 is the correct setting instead of default 50 brightness but I have no way of testing it because this specific dolby test doesn't play on my cx via USB directly in the lg cx itself or my Panasonic ub820
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post #1058 of 1072 Old 07-02-2020, 01:07 PM
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If u are referring to the elevated black issue on the cx yes its on disks and streaming. I wanted to use the dolby vision test to see if 49 is the correct setting instead of default 50 brightness but I have no way of testing it because this specific dolby test doesn't play on my cx via USB directly in the lg cx itself or my Panasonic ub820
49 seems to have become the preferred brightness setting for many LG OLED owners. Maybe LG needs to change there approach to factory calibrating Dolby Vision.

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post #1059 of 1072 Old 07-02-2020, 03:10 PM
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49 seems to have become the preferred brightness setting for many LG OLED owners. Maybe LG needs to change there approach to factory calibrating Dolby Vision.
That would be a really bad idea. The black level problem, which doesn't always happen, is an issue with the Dolby processing that needs fixing. If you reduce Brightness to 49 in an attempt to "fix it" for those occasions, you break the entire conversion from 2.2 gamma to PQ EOTF not just for those wrong-black instances but also for the rest of the time when it was correct anyway. Using Brightness=49 is not a fix at all. (But yes, it is true that many people seem to think that it is, so yes, lots of people "prefer" it ).

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post #1060 of 1072 Old 07-02-2020, 05:02 PM
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That would be a really bad idea. The black level problem, which doesn't always happen, is an issue with the Dolby processing that needs fixing. If you reduce Brightness to 49 in an attempt to "fix it" for those occasions, you break the entire conversion from 2.2 gamma to PQ EOTF not just for those wrong-black instances but also for the rest of the time when it was correct anyway. Using Brightness=49 is not a fix at all. (But yes, it is true that many people seem to think that it is, so yes, lots of people "prefer" it ).
Is this a complaint for Sony or Panasonic OLED users or is it purely a LG problem?

Default 50 brightness on my Vizio P55 thats a RGB IPS panel, black level is to dark for HDR10. I really believe this is a factory calibration issue. One click up and black detail is proper, with no lifted blacks.

This is observed after using the Benchmark disc brightness pattern where it shows black detail clipped before the adjustment.

Until 7 months ago, Vizio had released some questionable factory calibrations for Dolby Vision. Gamma was under 2.2, I would say, way under 2.2. Today its spot on, with far better color accuracy.

Is this a black bar issue?

If so, then its a color grading issue, Dolby discovered that color graders were Lift to adjust content black levels, essentially lifting black bar black levels.





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post #1061 of 1072 Old 07-03-2020, 08:31 AM
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Yea this doesn't play on my cx either It also defaults to hdr on my panny ub820 also. I wish i knew another way to test this because of the elevated black levels with dolby vision on the cx
Sadly the CX will not support Profile 7 in an MP4. Profile 7 requires dual decoders, which is why it is officially limited to BD. C9 still supports it. You need a Profile 5 MP4. I won't be making Profile 5 any time soon as its a different workflow than I have built for BD.

50 is the correct setting for brightness on both the C9 and CX. The floating black issue, which I believe is what you are experiencing, will come in the form of a FW fix to the TV. There are a few issues to resolve. I also know how to work around the black crush issue with DV after an autocal.

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post #1062 of 1072 Old 07-03-2020, 10:38 AM
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Sadly the CX will not support Profile 7 in an MP4. Profile 7 requires dual decoders, which is why it is officially limited to BD. C9 still supports it. You need a Profile 5 MP4. I won't be making Profile 5 any time soon as its a different workflow than I have built for BD.



50 is the correct setting for brightness on both the C9 and CX. The floating black issue, which I believe is what you are experiencing, will come in the form of a FW fix to the TV. There are a few issues to resolve. I also know how to work around the black crush issue with DV after an autocal.
Yea the black issues im referring to are for example the Netflix loading screen is normally black but on the cx it's like a 2 percent gray screen or during transition scenes of a show or movie it tends to be a light gray instead of jet black. I'm not sure what floating blacks are?
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post #1063 of 1072 Old 07-03-2020, 11:39 AM
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Yea the black issues im referring to are for example the Netflix loading screen is normally black but on the cx it's like a 2 percent gray screen or during transition scenes of a show or movie it tends to be a light gray instead of jet black. I'm not sure what floating blacks are?
What you describe sounds like the floating black issue. If it is, then a future FW update should fix it.

Just want to confirm, you are using Cinema and not Cinema Home, correct? Cinema Home uses a light meter and adjusts the image based on ambient light in the room.

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post #1064 of 1072 Old 07-03-2020, 11:49 AM
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What you describe sounds like the floating black issue. If it is, then a future FW update should fix it.



Just want to confirm, you are using Cinema and not Cinema Home, correct? Cinema Home uses a light meter and adjusts the image based on ambient light in the room.
Yes regular Cinema and not cinema home. Clicking brightness down 1 click makes the blacks jet black again but im sure that isn't what I'm supposed to be doing but seeing that type of stuff on the Netflix intro screen or during movies just takes the thrill out lol
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post #1065 of 1072 Old 07-03-2020, 12:45 PM
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@sspears What is your opinion of Vizio announcement?

1 Ghz 64 bit image processor and all for the OLED and LCD. Any chance you will be able to get your hands on one for testing?

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post #1066 of 1072 Old 07-03-2020, 02:36 PM
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I also know how to work around the black crush issue with DV after an autocal.
Can you share anything about the work around? I'm still confused by the black crush issue as it seems to vary with test pattern used, device chain, etc. The majority of DV media I'm watching on the C9 are UHD discs played from my Oppo UDP-203, with the remainder being from LG's internal apps and an Apple TV 4K. I'm uncertain whether those are truly affected the same way the test patterns on a USB drive are.

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post #1067 of 1072 Old 07-03-2020, 06:00 PM
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@sspears What is your opinion of Vizio announcement?

1 Ghz 64 bit image processor and all for the OLED and LCD. Any chance you will be able to get your hands on one for testing?

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Have not seen there announcement. I took off a week from work to start rendering the content for the disc. So far, going slow. By render, I mean create the uncompressed source files. I am also running a set of 200 brute force encodes on every pattern to find the best settings per pattern. Turns out, same settings don't produce the best results on every pattern.
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@sspears

The Dolby Vision 2.9 brightness pattern played back in DV on LG UP970, At first I couldn't tell if any of the bars were flashing. Up close I can, 100 to 86. Nothing near 64 or 0.005 nits. The display also supported the file in DV, with similar results.
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Hi Tyler just got my disc as well , it look like the red color is clipping on hdr?

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Are you talking about the Cr high box or the color space conversion?

Don't know why Cr high clips on the LG OLED. I do know that the color space conversion section does not work on current displays in HDR. SDR is fine. This is because of the gamut and nit limitation. It will work on a true 2020 / 10K nit display.

Best way to check color conversion today is using the HDR color bars and the colour filter option on the LG. I have verified it is correct. (Sadly removed from 2019 models) You can tell the 2017 series does the wrong conversion on 709 by using the colour filter option and the HD color bars under the SDR 709 section.

I find myself in the same situation as Toto84 with my LG C9. Since it has been a while since this "problem", I guess I'll ask if there is a solution now (or an explanation).
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post #1070 of 1072 Old Yesterday, 10:15 AM
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Sadly the CX will not support Profile 7 in an MP4. Profile 7 requires dual decoders, which is why it is officially limited to BD. C9 still supports it. You need a Profile 5 MP4. I won't be making Profile 5 any time soon as its a different workflow than I have built for BD.

50 is the correct setting for brightness on both the C9 and CX. The floating black issue, which I believe is what you are experiencing, will come in the form of a FW fix to the TV. There are a few issues to resolve. I also know how to work around the black crush issue with DV after an autocal.
The DoVI pattern works on my new E9 calibrated at Value Elections.
Is this what I should keep an eye on or is there anything else I should look for specifically?

"The reason I am sharing this is that there seems to be some belief that after a Calman calibration everything below 3% is clipped or crushed and that is not true at all. This goes up to code value 100. Code value 99 is 4%. Code value 82 is be 2%. The pattern goes from code value 4 through 100. If I turn brightness up on the LG C9, I can see it goes to 64, which is 0%.

On a side note, Stacey you know the Xbox output better than anyone. Is there any issues in have the X output 12 bit? I know the systems murders chroma resolution.

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post #1071 of 1072 Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM
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I find myself in the same situation as Toto84 with my LG C9. Since it has been a while since this "problem", I guess I'll ask if there is a solution now (or an explanation).
This is not something you can calibrate out. The patch is much brighter than the capability of an OLED or any current consumer TV. Should look perfect on a true 10,000 nit BT.2020 display.
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post #1072 of 1072 Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM
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The DoVI pattern works on my new E9 calibrated at Value Elections.
Is this what I should keep an eye on or is there anything else I should look for specifically?

"The reason I am sharing this is that there seems to be some belief that after a Calman calibration everything below 3% is clipped or crushed and that is not true at all. This goes up to code value 100. Code value 99 is 4%. Code value 82 is be 2%. The pattern goes from code value 4 through 100. If I turn brightness up on the LG C9, I can see it goes to 64, which is 0%.

On a side note, Stacey you know the Xbox output better than anyone. Is there any issues in have the X output 12 bit? I know the systems murders chroma resolution.
Have not looked at the 12-bit output of the Xbox in a long time, so I don't recall, sorry.

HDR will never show anything below 64 or above 940 due to the way it works. That is on the display side. If you use an HDMI analyzer, then you can see values below 64 while in YCbCr. I am trying to decide if I should leave values below 64 on this pattern for the update. I have spent the past 14 days rendering all of the patterns and I am still not done with HDR. For SDR, I will leave them. They are also on the monotonicity pattern, which is meant for an HDMI analyzer.

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