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post #91 of 144 Old 07-11-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Lets take The Dark Knight were some shots were shot on IMAX and are 4x3 on the disc vs. other parts of the movie that is 2.39:1. While creating the Dolby Vision master, you can mark the shots that are 2.39.1 so tone mapping will know not to modify the region of the image where the letterbox bars are.

For HD DVD, we would crop off the bars and re-add them by aligning the top with a macroblock boundary to remove noise in the bar region. I am sure some are doing this for BD and UHD BD as well.
I am a big fan of Dolby Vision and I love learning these kinds of details so thank you.
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post #92 of 144 Old 07-11-2019, 04:11 PM
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One of the metadata items for DV is the letterbox region. If they don't set that, it might impact tone mapping. What is really cool, is you can change this per shot for a mixed aspect ratio movie. Again, you have to set it.
There was a white paper released by Dolby, suggesting that could be linked to trim pass usage, particularly "Lift" being used improperly.

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post #93 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 09:09 AM
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Good morning

I am back with my questions after a night of working with the disc. I was doing my SDR calibrations late last night. I didn't quite finish but got pretty far.

The question I have came up when I was doing color space evaluation. When using the Gamma Tracking boxes at the top color space evaluation pattern, do I want to see the blinking boxes within the boxes, or NOT see blinking boxes within the sqaures? ? My TV gives me the options for 1.9. 2.2. 2.4, and BT.1886 and all clearly change my brightness.

On a related note, I was actually surprised the gamma check comes this late in the SDR calibration as listed in the guide of steps to follow in order. With it affecting brightness, I'd think it would of come sooner. Unless I missed it of course.

I must admit I have had a really hard time getting my mind around Chroma sampling and choosing 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 or the other options available. I know the disc is suppose to help you evaluation if you are better off setting your player and 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 which determines what your TV does or does not need to do but boy I just had the hardest time understanding it. After re-reading a few articles several times I think I got it. In my case, during eval I could not tell much difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 so I am leaning towards just leaving it on 4:2:2 and letting the TV do more work. Do you ever recommend people keeping it on auto if they have the option?

***

Also during calibration last night i got to wondering, what do people do who, like me, have an AVR and the TV input never actually changes? My TV will be on HDMI2 for enternity because all the switching is done through my AVR. Here I am calibrating my TV with a disc in my 4K Blu-Ray player which is all well and good, but what about my Apple TV 4K? I imagine the settings I create based on the S&M disc are mostly going to be fine for the Apple TV, but there could be some variations. It does have it's own options for 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 for example. Personally my Apple TV is not my main viewing device and I care far less about it's color accuracy than watching a Blu-Ray disc but for others I am sure it's more important. So how do you set it when all your calibrations are based on a disc coming from a different device?

Thanks.

Edit. Another question. Is there any reason I would want to use ISF Expert or Technicolor over Cinema?

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post #94 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 10:17 AM
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Anyone testing Dolby Vision with the Sony UBP-X700? Vincent's review of the new UBP-X1000ES stated it clips DV highlight detail. Wondering if the X700 might do the same.

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post #95 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 10:42 AM
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Anyone testing Dolby Vision with the Sony UBP-X700? Vincent's review of the new UBP-X1000ES stated it clips DV highlight detail. Wondering if the X700 might do the same.
I am not but I actually have an X800M2 and that makes me wonder if that could affect mine too.

And on a related note, how do you test for Dolby Vision using this disc?
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post #96 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 01:47 PM
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Missing images

Any idea why the images (.PNG format) posted by @sspears do not appear when viewing the thread on an iPad? The images appear correctly when viewing on my Windows desktop. Example attached.
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post #97 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Good morning

I am back with my questions have a night of working with the disc. I was doing my SDR calibrations late last night. I didn't quite finish but got pretty far.

The question I have came up when I was doing color space evaluation. When using the Gamma Tracking boxes at the top color space evaluation pattern, do I want to see the blinking boxes within the boxes, or NOT see blinking boxes within the sqaures? ? My TV gives me the options for 1.9. 2.2. 2.4, and BT.1886 and all clearly change my brightness.

On a related note, I was actually surprised the gamma check comes this late in the SDR calibration as listed in the guide of steps to follow in order. With it affecting brightness, I'd think it would of come sooner. Unless I missed it of course.

I must admit I have had a really hard time getting my mind around Chroma sampling and choosing 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 or the other options available. I know the disc is suppose to help you evaluation if you are better off setting your player and 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 which determines what your TV does or does not need to do but boy I just had the hardest time understanding it. After re-reading a few articles several times I think I got it. In my case, during eval I could not tell much difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 so I am leaning towards just leaving it on 4:2:2 and letting the TV do more work. Do you ever recommend people keeping it on auto if they have the option?

***

Also during calibration last night i got to wondering, what do people do who, like me, have an AVR and the TV input never actually changes? My TV will be on HDMI2 for enternity because all the switching is done through my AVR. Here I am calibrating my TV with a disc in my 4K Blu-Ray player which is all well and good, but what about my Apple TV 4K? I imagine the settings I create based on the S&M disc are mostly going to be fine for the Apple TV, but there could be some variations. It does have it's own options for 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 for example. Personally my Apple TV is not my main viewing device and I care far less about it's color accuracy than watching a Blu-Ray disc but for others I am sure it's more important. So how do you set it when all your calibrations are based on a disc coming from a different device?

Thanks.

Edit. Another question. Is there any reason I would want to use ISF Expert or Technicolor over Cinema?
1. You don't want to see the blinking. If this is an OLED, then 2.4 and BT.1886 should be identical. I have BT.1886 selected.
2. Gamma should not impact the very bottom or top as those two points should be anchored and gamma just adjusts the curve between them. But your point is valid. Since you select the starting picture mode first, this is covered for HDR, but for SDR, I forget they might default to 2.2. Thank you for the feedback.
3. In theory, 422, 444 and RGB should produce identical results. In the end, everything goes to RGB. I can give you some real world examples I have encountered.
a. I have a Samsung DLP projector, the SP-A900B. If you send in 422, it uses nearest neighbor to convert to 444. Because chroma is co-sited with luma, a scaling algorithm needs to account for that and nearest neighbor cannot. This results is chroma being shifted half a pixel away from luma. (the chroma alignment diamonds show this) Sending in 444 does not have this issue.
b. I had a DVDO video processor once upon a time. (VP50 Pro I think) If you sent in 444, the first thing it did was convert to 422 since that is what its algorithms worked in. They decimated chroma resolution when you did this. Then they converted to 444 on output, but by then, chroma resolution was lost.
c. If you play the Scaling HD pattern from an OPPO into an LG C6/B7 (have not tested others), sending in 422 results in weird streaks in chroma. Sending in 444 was clean. I think I also had to set scaling to Auto vs. source direct. For LG, I recommend sending in 444.
4. Technicolor uses a different white point. They did a bunch of perceptual testing to match different display technologies. So their mode is not measured at .3217, .329 for D65 because it would appear visually greener on an OLED, so they brought in a bunch of experts and had them visually match all of them.

As far as the AVR situation, I can't help you on that, sorry.
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post #98 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I am not but I actually have an X800M2 and that makes me wonder if that could affect mine too.

And on a related note, how do you test for Dolby Vision using this disc?
No Dolby Vision test patterns on this disc. We are looking at that when the add-on comes next year. I was able to create our first Dolby Vision test pattern last week. Hoping to test more this weekend. Prior to that, we could not have created them for profile 7.

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post #99 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Any idea why the images (.PNG format) posted by @sspears do not appear when viewing the thread on an iPad? The images appear correctly when viewing on my Windows desktop. Example attached.
The images are on dropbox and perhaps the iPad does not like that.

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post #100 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
1. You don't want to see the blinking. If this is an OLED, then 2.4 and BT.1886 should be identical. I have BT.1886 selected.
2. Gamma should not impact the very bottom or top as those two points should be anchored and gamma just adjusts the curve between them. But your point is valid. Since you select the starting picture mode first, this is covered for HDR, but for SDR, I forget they might default to 2.2. Thank you for the feedback.
3. In theory, 422, 444 and RGB should produce identical results. In the end, everything goes to RGB. I can give you some real world examples I have encountered.
a. I have a Samsung DLP projector, the SP-A900B. If you send in 422, it uses nearest neighbor to convert to 444. Because chroma is co-sited with luma, a scaling algorithm needs to account for that and nearest neighbor cannot. This results is chroma being shifted half a pixel away from luma. (the chroma alignment diamonds show this) Sending in 444 does not have this issue.
b. I had a DVDO video processor once upon a time. (VP50 Pro I think) If you sent in 444, the first thing it did was convert to 422 since that is what its algorithms worked in. They decimated chroma resolution when you did this. Then they converted to 444 on output, but by then, chroma resolution was lost.
c. If you play the Scaling HD pattern from an OPPO into an LG C6/B7 (have not tested others), sending in 422 results in weird streaks in chroma. Sending in 444 was clean. I think I also had to set scaling to Auto vs. source direct. For LG, I recommend sending in 444.
4. Technicolor uses a different white point. They did a bunch of perceptual testing to match different display technologies. So their mode is not measured at .3217, .329 for D65 because it would appear visually greener on an OLED, so they brought in a bunch of experts and had them visually match all of them.
Good to hear from you. Thanks for the continued assistance.

1. Thanks for this. I will switch to BT.1886 and re-adjust this evening.

2. I'm glad I could help. What are you referring to when you say very bottom or top? I do not know what my Gamma was set to out of the Factory, but it was at 1.9 last night when I got to that setting. I forget why I set it that way. I was probably trying to fix my blacks.

3. I will still admit this subject is pretty advanced for me. I appreciate the advice to set my LG to 444. Why do you suggest that if I may ask? As I understand it, setting it to 444 will mean my player does more "work" before it sends it to the LG C8 correct? As a refresher, my BD player is a Sony X800M2. (Which also has an RGB option in addition to auto, 422, and 444 by the way.)

How is that better than the C8 doing more of the conversion? From my own (No doubt flawed) logic, I would assume my expensive TV does a better job processing than a $300 Blu-Ray player. But I'm guessing it's not that simple.


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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
No Dolby Vision test patterns on this disc. We are looking at that when the add-on comes next year. I was able to create our first Dolby Vision test pattern last week. Hoping to test more this weekend. Prior to that, we could not have created them for profile 7.
What add-on?


Thanks again!
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post #101 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Good to hear from you. Thanks for the continued assistance.

1. Thanks for this. I will switch to BT.1886 and re-adjust this evening.

2. I'm glad I could help. What are you referring to when you say very bottom or top? I do not know what my Gamma was set to out of the Factory, but it was at 1.9 last night when I got to that setting. I forget why I set it that way. I was probably trying to fix my blacks.

3. I will still admit this subject is pretty advanced for me. I appreciate the advice to set my LG to 444. Why do you suggest that if I may ask? As I understand it, setting it to 444 will mean my player does more "work" before it sends it to the LG C8 correct? As a refresher, my BD player is a Sony X800M2. (Which also has an RGB option in addition to auto, 422, and 444 by the way.)

How is that better than the C8 doing more of the conversion? From my own (No doubt flawed) logic, I would assume my expensive TV does a better job processing than a $300 Blu-Ray player. But I'm guessing it's not that simple.

What add-on?


Thanks again!
We would like to release a companion disc late Q1 of next year. It will add DTS:X and Atmos plus Dolby Vision 4.0 content.

2. Setting brightness will lock the bottom and setting contrast will lock the top. Then changing gamma will move the curve between them. So brightness and contrast should not change.

3. I tested 422 and 444 at both native and scaled and compared them using the color space eval and scaling HD patterns and selected what I thought was the best. A loupe will help you see the pixels up close, which you need for chroma alignment. Even more so in 8K!

The Panasonic BD players have chroma processing that is better than any display on the market. So its 444 output will be better. Displays typically use bilinear, which is soft. Many BD players also use that. The problem is when displays convert between 444 and 422.

If you want to see how good chroma can look on your C8, I can show you. The problem is, in that mode, the video goes 8-bit so you get massive banding.

Send in 444. Go to Advanced Video->Resolution->Chroma Zone plate locked. The left and right 3rds of the image will be dimmer than the center. Now on the LG, there is a menu where you can change the label of a source. It changes with each generation, so finding it something you will have to figure out. If you change the label from the default to PC, then you will be in 444 mode where the display does not ever convert between 422 and 444. The first time you do into this mode, it will switch to a different picture setting, so you need to change it back to cinema and also change all of the settings to match what you had before. Now when you look at the pattern, the side 3rds are as bright as the center. Chroma resolution is now improved.

In PC mode several image controls are disabled, but it is stuff you should turn off anyway if our goal is to preserve artistic intent. If you like those settings, such as detail enhance or noise reduction, then this mode would never work for you even if it stayed in 10-bit. I believe the 6 series stays 10-bit while 7, 8 and 9 do not.

Chroma resolution is better, but now there is banding! Even the smoke in the menu shows severe banding. But this also makes a nice demo for the quantization rotate pattern. In PC mode, the bottom 10-bit looks just like the top 8-bit. When you switch the label (maybe it is called icon) back, then the bottom 10-bit section looks much smoother as you are 10-bit again.

This pattern is a good one to also look at when comparing 422 vs. 444 in. We put little slivers of it on the top left of the color space eval pattern. Top right is the other chroma pattern. Then the bottom are like the chroma Cb and Cr RGB legal patterns.

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post #102 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 06:47 PM
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Does this disc have color clipping patterns for HDR10?
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post #103 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post
We would like to release a companion disc late Q1 of next year. It will add DTS:X and Atmos plus Dolby Vision 4.0 content.
Oh boy, this really excites me. Can you say any more? Is this going to be a literal extra disc we just slip into the UHD case or a stand alone item? Any idea on a price point? Would it have any kind of calibration for DTS:X and Atmos or would that just be for demo purposes?

What is Dolby Vision 4.0 exactly? And for that matter what is Dolby 1.0-3.0. I'm guessing you are talking about authoring software of some kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
2. Setting brightness will lock the bottom and setting contrast will lock the top. Then changing gamma will move the curve between them. So brightness and contrast should not change.
Good to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
3. I tested 422 and 444 at both native and scaled and compared them using the color space eval and scaling HD patterns and selected what I thought was the best. A loupe will help you see the pixels up close, which you need for chroma alignment. Even more so in 8K!

The Panasonic BD players have chroma processing that is better than any display on the market. So its 444 output will be better. Displays typically use bilinear, which is soft. Many BD players also use that. The problem is when displays convert between 444 and 422.
Looks like we have a misunderstanding. I do not have a Panasonic Player, the X800M2 is a Sony player. With that in mind, do you still recommend me use 444?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
If you want to see how good chroma can look on your C8, I can show you. The problem is, in that mode, the video goes 8-bit so you get massive banding.

Send in 444. Go to Advanced Video->Resolution->Chroma Zone plate locked. The left and right 3rds of the image will be dimmer than the center. Now on the LG, there is a menu where you can change the label of a source. It changes with each generation, so finding it something you will have to figure out. If you change the label from the default to PC, then you will be in 444 mode where the display does not ever convert between 422 and 444. The first time you do into this mode, it will switch to a different picture setting, so you need to change it back to cinema and also change all of the settings to match what you had before. Now when you look at the pattern, the side 3rds are as bright as the center. Chroma resolution is now improved.

In PC mode several image controls are disabled, but it is stuff you should turn off anyway if our goal is to preserve artistic intent. If you like those settings, such as detail enhance or noise reduction, then this mode would never work for you even if it stayed in 10-bit. I believe the 6 series stays 10-bit while 7, 8 and 9 do not.

Chroma resolution is better, but now there is banding! Even the smoke in the menu shows severe banding. But this also makes a nice demo for the quantization rotate pattern. In PC mode, the bottom 10-bit looks just like the top 8-bit. When you switch the label (maybe it is called icon) back, then the bottom 10-bit section looks much smoother as you are 10-bit again.

This pattern is a good one to also look at when comparing 422 vs. 444 in. We put little slivers of it on the top left of the color space eval pattern. Top right is the other chroma pattern. Then the bottom are like the chroma Cb and Cr RGB legal patterns.

On my TV, it's changing the input to be a PC input that gets the 444 you are suggesting. (Like you assumed.) But as I understood it, that is something I would never need to do in my case. But if I read your suggestion correctly, you were saying it would actually show it's BAD for me to set my TV that way based on what the end result would be.


Good evening to you.
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post #104 of 144 Old 07-12-2019, 08:39 PM
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I posted in another thread about this but thought I would get opinions here. Thoughts on ISF picture mode for SDR content calibration? I know your guide for SDR says Cinema as well, but I thought I would ask.
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post #105 of 144 Old 07-13-2019, 07:21 AM
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Does this disc have color clipping patterns for HDR10?
Not really. Until you have a true 10,000 nit / BT.2020 display, everything will be tone mapped and colors will just clip, especially the gamut, which is why the clipping pattern is only included for SDR. This is also why the contrast / dynamic range HDR patterns don't have the color clipping boxes on the top and bottom like SDR do.

Today's displays clip the gamut at their boundary, vs. remap.

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post #106 of 144 Old 07-13-2019, 07:23 AM
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I posted in another thread about this but thought I would get opinions here. Thoughts on ISF picture mode for SDR content calibration? I know your guide for SDR says Cinema as well, but I thought I would ask.
ISF and Technicolor modes both qualify as cinema modes, but since they are specific to those displays that license their names, we don't mention them explicitly.

One of the goals of the novice guide is to actually list controls / modes by each manufacturer to further help people vs. a generic list. Problem is each generation of TV may change the name of controls or remove them.
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Received my disc yesterday and did some SDR calibration on my Sony Z9D, mainly contrast and brightness along with choosing a proper or close enough color temp. Thinking of getting an X-Rite i1 Display Pro again, had one few years ago but sold it. I read the setup guide posted online and I never knew to leave contrast alone in HDR so the display can do tone mapping. What is the best configuration to use for HDR on the disc?
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post #108 of 144 Old 07-13-2019, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Oh boy, this really excites me. Can you say any more? Is this going to be a literal extra disc we just slip into the UHD case or a stand alone item? Any idea on a price point? Would it have any kind of calibration for DTS:X and Atmos or would that just be for demo purposes?

What is Dolby Vision 4.0 exactly? And for that matter what is Dolby 1.0-3.0. I'm guessing you are talking about authoring software of some kind.


Looks like we have a misunderstanding. I do not have a Panasonic Player, the X800M2 is a Sony player. With that in mind, do you still recommend me use 444?

On my TV, it's changing the input to be a PC input that gets the 444 you are suggesting. (Like you assumed.) But as I understood it, that is something I would never need to do in my case. But if I read your suggestion correctly, you were saying it would actually show it's BAD for me to set my TV that way based on what the end result would be.


Good evening to you.
1. Atmos and DTS:X is for calibration and evaluation. Possibly pink noise but then other tones as well. We would offer a new dual disc case, cover and second triple layer disc to existing customers for an upgrade fee. Initial thinking is $10 plus shipping. For new customers, we will replace the current disc with a two disc set and the price will go up to $47.95. We (Don and myself) won't receive any money from the upgrade. The cost is for bill of materials and logistics of handling an upgrade for everyone.

2. 4.0 is an update version of features for Dolby Vision. You have to master content in it and your display needs to support it. Part of 4.0 is a backwards compatibility to 2.9. Here is a Dolby guide for those creating content. It will show you some of the differences between each.

3. No misunderstanding, I was simply pointing out an example of where a player does a better job than the display. Don't assume the price of anything will impact the quality.

4. If the display did not go to 8-bit, then PC mode would have superior chroma resolution (fine chroma detail). The 444 mode is unique to LG as far as I can tell. Pretty much many / most image processing bits run in 422 to save money on memory and processing power. The issue comes down to the quality of the up and down conversion between 422/444. If you don't see any difference, then it does not matter which one you use as they will all look the same. I would not stress to much over this. It is also worth noting that test patterns are designed to make small issues more obvious.

The smallest issue our patterns expose still outdoes any money spent on high end HDMI cables. We even include a pattern to prove this. It is called the monotonicity. You use these patterns with an HDMI analyzer to read pixel values from the disc. This allows you to confirm that the pixels on the disc make it over the cables. We have not experienced any cables that change those values. We have gone through cables that cause actual dropouts or sparklies. Those are obvious issues. Majority of consumer and reviewers don't have HDMI analyers. The one that I have is the Accupel DGA-6000.

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post #109 of 144 Old 07-13-2019, 07:43 AM
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Received my disc yesterday and did some SDR calibration on my Sony Z9D, mainly contrast and brightness along with choosing a proper or close enough color temp. Thinking of getting an X-Rite i1 Display Pro again, had one few years ago but sold it. I read the setup guide posted online and I never knew to leave contrast alone in HDR so the display can do tone mapping. What is the best configuration to use for HDR on the disc?
Changing HDR settings should not impact SDR settings. If they do, would love to hear about it. I would say that SDR, HDR10 and Dolby Vision should each be in their own unique mode. LG is this way and I believe Sony is too. Can't speak for the rest as these are the only two I have on hand at the moment. I do go to the Portrait Displays (SpectraCal) office every now and then to check more displays.

So far the exception to the contrast rule has been on Sony displays where I have seen clipping occur in Dolby Vision that goes away by pulling contrast down, at least from the OPPO BD player. There are reports that Panasonic player hard clips Dolby Vision, but I have not had a chance to confirm yet. Working on some Dolby patterns to confirm this myself. Then I will provide the content to Panasonic.

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Changing HDR settings should not impact SDR settings. If they do, would love to hear about it. I would say that SDR, HDR10 and Dolby Vision should each be in their own unique mode. LG is this way and I believe Sony is too. Can't speak for the rest as these are the only two I have on hand at the moment. I do go to the Portrait Displays (SpectraCal) office every now and then to check more displays.

So far the exception to the contrast rule has been on Sony displays where I have seen clipping occur in Dolby Vision that goes away by pulling contrast down, at least from the OPPO BD player. There are reports that Panasonic player hard clips Dolby Vision, but I have not had a chance to confirm yet. Working on some Dolby patterns to confirm this myself. Then I will provide the content to Panasonic.
Before receiving UHD Benchmark I was using the same mode, Cinema Home for all content (SDR, HDR10) Dolby Vision does go into its own pic mode. I just started to use Cinema Pro for HDR10 and let Cinema Home become SDR only. I've read that Ch. 2 of the montage is where you can see clipping of Dolby Vision. What is the exact scene? Right now I leave my contrast at default which is 90 for DV on the Z9D. My UHD player is the Oppo 203.
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Before receiving UHD Benchmark I was using the same mode, Cinema Home for all content (SDR, HDR10) Dolby Vision does go into its own pic mode. I just started to use Cinema Pro for HDR10 and let Cinema Home become SDR only. I've read that Ch. 2 of the montage is where you can see clipping of Dolby Vision. What is the exact scene? Right now I leave my contrast at default which is 90 for DV on the Z9D. My UHD player is the Oppo 203.
You have a Sony. The shot of the horses in the snow, which should be the second shot in chapter 2. The first being the fence in the snow. On the horse scene, look at the detail around the lower quarter of the screen. By default it will be blown out in Dolby Vision on the Sony. I am to show this to both Sony and Dolby at the same time in a couple of weeks. This should not happen. You can compare this to the 1000 nit HDR10 version on the disc.

While the montage is playing, press the up arrow and the pop-up style menu will be displayed. On that scene, you can select any other montage and it will jump to it at roughly the same point in time. Going in and out of Dolby Vision will take longer. We jump back 1-second going between HDR10 and 2-seconds going into and out of Dolby Vision in order to try and get to a similar point.

Sadly, this does not work in pause mode. Most players don't allow navigation (Panasonic and OPPO for sure). We would have loved to be able to pause on a shot and then jump between them to compare.

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You have a Sony. The shot of the horses in the snow, which should be the second shot in chapter 2. The first being the fence in the snow. On the horse scene, look at the detail around the lower quarter of the screen. By default it will be blown out in Dolby Vision on the Sony. I am to show this to both Sony and Dolby at the same time in a couple of weeks. This should not happen. You can compare this to the 1000 nit HDR10 version on the disc.

While the montage is playing, press the up arrow and the pop-up style menu will be displayed. On that scene, you can select any other montage and it will jump to it at roughly the same point in time. Going in and out of Dolby Vision will take longer. We jump back 1-second going between HDR10 and 2-seconds going into and out of Dolby Vision in order to try and get to a similar point.

Sadly, this does not work in pause mode. Most players don't allow navigation (Panasonic and OPPO for sure). We would have loved to be able to pause on a shot and then jump between them to compare.
Thank you! Just played that scene and yes, I see clipping in DV. Thanks for the tip on the shortcut with the 'up' direction. Im sure you'll report what Sony & Dolby has to say after you show them.
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@sspears

Does the Dolby Pulsar have contrast control, or is it just a pure PQ monitor, meaning it doesn't even have a gamma setting either?

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post #114 of 144 Old 07-13-2019, 01:13 PM
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@sspears

Does the Dolby Pulsar have contrast control, or is it just a pure PQ monitor, meaning it doesn't even have a gamma setting either?
A mastering display does not have tone mapping, it simply goes up to its limit and then hard clips. This is much different than a consumer display, which has to allow for content beyond its capability by tone mapping it down with a curve.

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post #115 of 144 Old 07-13-2019, 01:46 PM
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A mastering display does not have tone mapping, it simply goes up to its limit and then hard clips. This is much different than a consumer display, which has to allow for content beyond its capability by tone mapping it down with a curve.
Yes, I was just curious if the mastering monitor has contrast control and gamma. Basically you can't do a SDR grade on the Dolby Pulsar.

The Pulsar, and Flanders S XM310K, have a higher full field brightness higher than your brightest consumer display, is that related to the fact they don't tone map?

One more question, can the enhancement layer exist outside of the dynamic metadata?

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post #116 of 144 Old 07-13-2019, 03:31 PM
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ISF and Technicolor modes both qualify as cinema modes, but since they are specific to those displays that license their names, we don't mention them explicitly.

One of the goals of the novice guide is to actually list controls / modes by each manufacturer to further help people vs. a generic list. Problem is each generation of TV may change the name of controls or remove them.

Good afternoon and good weekend.

Since I have ISF Picture modes and Cinema modes, which would you recommend? Since I already started with Cinema for my SDR config, should I just stick with it or would I gain anything by starting again with an ISF picture mode?

On a related note, do you recommend Cinema or Cinema home for HDR10 content?


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1. Atmos and DTS:X is for calibration and evaluation. Possibly pink noise but then other tones as well. We would offer a new dual disc case, cover and second triple layer disc to existing customers for an upgrade fee. Initial thinking is $10 plus shipping. For new customers, we will replace the current disc with a two disc set and the price will go up to $47.95. We (Don and myself) won't receive any money from the upgrade. The cost is for bill of materials and logistics of handling an upgrade for everyone.

2. 4.0 is an update version of features for Dolby Vision. You have to master content in it and your display needs to support it. Part of 4.0 is a backwards compatibility to 2.9. Here is a Dolby guide for those creating content. It will show you some of the differences between each.

3. No misunderstanding, I was simply pointing out an example of where a player does a better job than the display. Don't assume the price of anything will impact the quality.

4. If the display did not go to 8-bit, then PC mode would have superior chroma resolution (fine chroma detail). The 444 mode is unique to LG as far as I can tell. Pretty much many / most image processing bits run in 422 to save money on memory and processing power. The issue comes down to the quality of the up and down conversion between 422/444. If you don't see any difference, then it does not matter which one you use as they will all look the same. I would not stress to much over this. It is also worth noting that test patterns are designed to make small issues more obvious.

The smallest issue our patterns expose still outdoes any money spent on high end HDMI cables. We even include a pattern to prove this. It is called the monotonicity. You use these patterns with an HDMI analyzer to read pixel values from the disc. This allows you to confirm that the pixels on the disc make it over the cables. We have not experienced any cables that change those values. We have gone through cables that cause actual dropouts or sparklies. Those are obvious issues. Majority of consumer and reviewers don't have HDMI analyers. The one that I have is the Accupel DGA-6000.
1. Really looking forward to the add-on disc. You already have a sale here. Your UHD disc is my first product of yours and I love it. Someday if/when we get a dedicated HT I will probably look into Pro calibration, but for our current HT living room, I am finding the disc to be an excellent solution.

2. Never knew there were "versions" of Dolby Vision. Good to know it's always improving. Is it possible to update existing displays with firmware to be DV 4.0 or is it all hardware based?

3. My mistake on the misunderstanding!

4. If I can not tell the difference on 444 or 422, what would you recommend I set it to with my Sony x800m2 and LG c8 combo? Would auto ever be an option I would want?

Side note, you mentioned Panasonic players and I actually had the UB820 for awhile. I started with a UBK90 as my first 4K player and decided I wanted something a bit more premium to match everything else I have invested money in. I ended up with the UB820 and liked it...but ended up realizing it was too much for me. I also could never decide if I wanted to use it's tone mapping, my TVs, or both. I ended up returning it and waiting for the Sony x800m2. I like it and it's a good middle ground but it's lack of DV switching drives me nuts. With our recent conversation it got me wondering what I would think of the UB820 if I revisited it with your disc. My wife would probably kill me if I told her I want to buy it again. Haha.

5. I actually meant to ask this before but I forgot. Does your disc go over which color gamut to pick? When I was playing around with the disc a few nights ago I was changing this setting and it was one of those options that has an immediate and very noticeable change on a picture. Guides I have read before getting the S&M disc have said to leave this on auto. Is that your recommendation as well?

Thanks again.
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When using UHD Benchmark should I be disabling local dimming while viewing test patterns and performing adjustments? I've been leaving it on, I do know to fully back out of the tv's menu system to fully get an idea on the image after adjustment but remember hearing in the past about turning off local dimming.
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post #118 of 144 Old Yesterday, 07:35 AM
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Yes, I was just curious if the mastering monitor has contrast control and gamma. Basically you can't do a SDR grade on the Dolby Pulsar.

The Pulsar, and Flanders S XM310K, have a higher full field brightness higher than your brightest consumer display, is that related to the fact they don't tone map?

One more question, can the enhancement layer exist outside of the dynamic metadata?

Sent from my LGMP450 using Tapatalk
A mastering display should never tone map in HDR mode. That is the point of it. This includes X300, X310, Pulsar, PRM and Flanders XM310.

No one should ever use the Pulsar for SDR, it was not meant for it. That is what the PRM is for. The Pulsar is not something anyone can purchase. They are on loan to anyone who has one. It requires four power cables to run it.

The enhancement layer is where the DV metadata is muxed. DV won't work w/o that metadata. As a test, we forced scenarist to use a MEL w/o the actual metadata. What happens is the OPPO reports it as DV, but the output is locked to SDR.
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post #119 of 144 Old Yesterday, 07:41 AM
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Good afternoon and good weekend.

Since I have ISF Picture modes and Cinema modes, which would you recommend? Since I already started with Cinema for my SDR config, should I just stick with it or would I gain anything by starting again with an ISF picture mode?

On a related note, do you recommend Cinema or Cinema home for HDR10 content?




1. Really looking forward to the add-on disc. You already have a sale here. Your UHD disc is my first product of yours and I love it. Someday if/when we get a dedicated HT I will probably look into Pro calibration, but for our current HT living room, I am finding the disc to be an excellent solution.

2. Never knew there were "versions" of Dolby Vision. Good to know it's always improving. Is it possible to update existing displays with firmware to be DV 4.0 or is it all hardware based?

3. My mistake on the misunderstanding!

4. If I can not tell the difference on 444 or 422, what would you recommend I set it to with my Sony x800m2 and LG c8 combo? Would auto ever be an option I would want?

Side note, you mentioned Panasonic players and I actually had the UB820 for awhile. I started with a UBK90 as my first 4K player and decided I wanted something a bit more premium to match everything else I have invested money in. I ended up with the UB820 and liked it...but ended up realizing it was too much for me. I also could never decide if I wanted to use it's tone mapping, my TVs, or both. I ended up returning it and waiting for the Sony x800m2. I like it and it's a good middle ground but it's lack of DV switching drives me nuts. With our recent conversation it got me wondering what I would think of the UB820 if I revisited it with your disc. My wife would probably kill me if I told her I want to buy it again. Haha.

5. I actually meant to ask this before but I forgot. Does your disc go over which color gamut to pick? When I was playing around with the disc a few nights ago I was changing this setting and it was one of those options that has an immediate and very noticeable change on a picture. Guides I have read before getting the S&M disc have said to leave this on auto. Is that your recommendation as well?

Thanks again.
On an LG I would only use Cinema or Technicolor.

1. While we are targeting late Q1, we are dependent on Dolby 4.0. Until we have the montage re-graded in 4.0, we can't finish it. It is the primary driver for the disc.
2. I doubt anyone will update their existing displays. LG is the first to support it with their 9 series.
4. I don't ever use auto. In the past, with HD BD players, that often meant 8-bit RGB because it is the only mandatory format you must support. I personally use 444 into the LG I have.

I have never used the HDR Optimizer on the UB9000. I have it and an OPPO 203.

6. I would leave it in auto. The gamut for most SDR is 709 and the gamut for most HDR is 2020. In theory content can use 2020 for SDR and 709 for HDR. We are planning to include samples on the add-on.

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post #120 of 144 Old Yesterday, 07:43 AM
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Anyone testing Dolby Vision with the Sony UBP-X700? Vincent's review of the new UBP-X1000ES stated it clips DV highlight detail. Wondering if the X700 might do the same.
The Z9D that I have clips DV highlight detail.

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