Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:36 AM
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Impressed so far by this disc, a great resource for the toolkit . A couple of suggestions perhaps for future versions:

1) Aspect ratio marks - would be nice to have a larger selection of aspect ratio tests. Maybe not all on one image (might get hard to see). I'd particularly like to see firstly crop marks for all the common ratios (I think 2.0, 2.35 and 2.4 are notably missing on the composite from memory, arguably 2.39 is close-ish). I'd also like to see sample screens with the correct active area for each ratio being used - this would be very useful as a test source for triggering things like the Lumagen Pro that has aspect ratio detection.

2) ADL images. I've mentioned in the other ADL thread that for similar image sets there are often inconsistencies in the location of the ADL contributing dots relative to the measurement position. This image set also has these inconsistencies. Some of these images have dots to the sides of the measurement space, some do not, which yield variable results between ADL levels for displays that exhibit horizontal or vertical streaking. IMHO all these images should either distribute the ADL contributing part of the image 360 degrees around the image (equally exposing horizontal and vertical streaking effect), or not at all to the side or top / bottom so negating any optical streaking in the light engine.

But anyway, they're small things and don't detract from a great resource. Thanks for creating it @sspears !
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post #152 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Impressed so far by this disc, a great resource for the toolkit . A couple of suggestions perhaps for future versions:

1) Aspect ratio marks - would be nice to have a larger selection of aspect ratio tests. Maybe not all on one image (might get hard to see). I'd particularly like to see firstly crop marks for all the common ratios (I think 2.0, 2.35 and 2.4 are notably missing on the composite from memory, arguably 2.39 is close-ish). I'd also like to see sample screens with the correct active area for each ratio being used - this would be very useful as a test source for triggering things like the Lumagen Pro that has aspect ratio detection.

2) ADL images. I've mentioned in the other ADL thread that for similar image sets there are often inconsistencies in the location of the ADL contributing dots relative to the measurement position. This image set also has these inconsistencies. Some of these images have dots to the sides of the measurement space, some do not, which yield variable results between ADL levels for displays that exhibit horizontal or vertical streaking. IMHO all these images should either distribute the ADL contributing part of the image 360 degrees around the image (equally exposing horizontal and vertical streaking effect), or not at all to the side or top / bottom so negating any optical streaking in the light engine.

But anyway, they're small things and don't detract from a great resource. Thanks for creating it @sspears !
Thank you for the feedback.

2. Can you provide some simple mockups of how you would lay out the boxes? A crude mock-up is fine. Are you wanting to spread them across the top and bottom and not just the left and right sides? Are you okay with the various % levels? The ADL patterns were something Kris wanted and so we included the step sizes (%s) he requested.

1. We tried to focus on standards. e.g. 2.35 hasn't been a SMPTE standard since 1970 when the specs were changed to allow for a little space between the top of one film frame and the bottom of the next to allow for splices in projection. The standards were changed again in the early 1980's to make both flat and scope prints use a common width for their masks, but the proportion for scope remained around 2.39. The DCI standard for widescreen is 2.39:1 (2048x858 for 2K and 4096x1716 for 4K delivery).

One of the interesting things to consider, which is sometimes done for better compression, is to first remove the existing bars and re-add them in order to move the first line of the active image to a macroblock boundary. This cleans up compression noise that would otherwise leak into the bar itself. This makes the image slightly off center in the vertical direction.

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post #153 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post


One more thing NEVER, under any circumstance, use 420 from a BD player. Never, ever, ever, ever. Did I mention never? 422 or 444 is what you want to use. 420 from a player is not direct.......
Stacey: Just to be absolutely clear: This applies to disc players only? We are ok with 4:2:0 from Apple TV?

Thanks so much,

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post #154 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 09:25 AM
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Stacey: Just to be absolutely clear: This applies to disc players only? We are ok with 4:2:0 from Apple TV?

Thanks so much,

Pip
The same problem applies. 4:2:0 was put into HDMI before everyone realized the co-siting for 2020 changed, so I would never use 4:2:0 from any source.

While I Have not tested 2019 TVs, 2018 and below pretty much all did 709 upsampling from 4:2:0 sources off of USB. This includes 2020 HDR content, so alignment is wrong. LG may have fixed in 2018, but I think it was 2019.

If you want to see what your display does with chroma alignment from USB, here are some MP4s in 709 and 2020 @ HD and UHD resolutions. HD scaled to UHD is easier to see, but then we found displays that introduced delay during scaling. Here are some pass/fail sample images.

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post #155 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 11:14 AM
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The same problem applies. 4:2:0 was put into HDMI before everyone realized the co-siting for 2020 changed, so I would never use 4:2:0 from any source....
That’s disappointing to learn. ATV only offers 4:2:0, or 4:4:4. Am I correct in recalling that 4:4:4 60/10 bit will not pass HDMI?

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post #156 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip View Post
That’s disappointing to learn. ATV only offers 4:2:0, or 4:4:4. Am I correct in recalling that 4:4:4 60/10 bit will not pass HDMI?

Thanks,

Pip
Depends on the version of HDMI. Can the ATV output 24p? Assuming the source is 24p.

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post #157 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip View Post
That’s disappointing to learn. ATV only offers 4:2:0, or 4:4:4. Am I correct in recalling that 4:4:4 60/10 bit will not pass HDMI?
That’s only for SDR. For 4K HDR the options are 4:2:0 and 4:2:2.
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post #158 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Depends on the version of HDMI. Can the ATV output 24p? Assuming the source is 24p.
Yes. The ATV can output 24p.

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post #159 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 11:57 AM
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That’s only for SDR. For 4K HDR the options are 4:2:0 and 4:2:2.
The ATV 4K running tvOS 13 no longer offers these options. The options are 4K Dolby Vision, 4K HDR, and 4K SDR (and a bunch of other choices). The Match Content options offer matching Dynamic Range.
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post #160 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:32 PM
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That’s only for SDR. For 4K HDR the options are 4:2:0 and 4:2:2.
Doh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The ATV 4K running tvOS 13 no longer offers these options. The options are 4K Dolby Vision, 4K HDR, and 4K SDR (and a bunch of other choices). The Match Content options offer matching Dynamic Range.
There are no longer chroma options? In the case, what is being output in HDR and SDR?

Thanks,

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post #161 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:33 PM
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The ATV 4K running tvOS 13 no longer offers these options. The options are 4K Dolby Vision, 4K HDR, and 4K SDR (and a bunch of other choices). The Match Content options offer matching Dynamic Range.
That's strange. I am running tvOS 13 Beta 3 at 4:2:2 for 4K HDR. See attached screenshot. AFAIK this is the latest Public Beta (as opposed to Developers Beta).

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post #162 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:34 PM
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There are no longer chroma options? In the case, what is being output in HDR and SDR?

Thanks,

Pip
Don’t know. You could ask that question in the ATV tvOS public beta thread and perhaps someone will know the answer.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...-releases.html
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post #163 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The ATV 4K running tvOS 13 no longer offers these options. The options are 4K Dolby Vision, 4K HDR, and 4K SDR (and a bunch of other choices). The Match Content options offer matching Dynamic Range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That's strange. I am running tvOS 13 at 4:2:2 for 4K HDR. See attached screenshot.

Thanks Dominic. That clearly shows what is being output, but do you still have chroma options, or are the options gone and this is automatic?

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post #164 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:41 PM
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Thanks Dominic. That clearly shows what is being output, but do you still have chroma options, or are the options gone and this is automatic?

Pip
There are two options as I mentioned in the previous post.
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post #165 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:42 PM
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There are two options as I mentioned in he previous post.
Thanks so much,

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post #166 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:47 PM
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Dolby Vision supports 422 through HDMI doesn't it?

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post #167 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 12:52 PM
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I did not intend to turn this thread into an AppleTV discussion. My comments pertain to the current tvOS 13 beta version. When selecting 1080p, the "About" screen clearly shows 4:2:2 as the output, but there is no option to switch to something else, say 4:4:4. When selecting Dolby Vision, nothing is shown.



The Video options also no longer offer the option to select the output.

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post #168 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I did not intend to turn this thread into an AppleTV discussion. My comments pertain to the current tvOS 13 beta version. When selecting 1080p, the "About" screen clearly shows 4:2:2 as the output, but there is no option to switch to something else, say 4:4:4. When selecting Dolby Vision, nothing is shown.







The Video options also no longer offer the option to select the output.





422 and 420 are the only supported formats for HDR10 at 60P for 10/12 bit. You can do RGB at only 8bit. This is a limitation of HDMI 2.0 bandwidth.

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post #169 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 02:37 PM
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422 and 420 are the only supported formats for HDR10 at 60P for 10/12 bit. You can do RGB at only 8bit. This is a limitation of HDMI 2.0 bandwidth.
No one is disputing that, Tyler, but you have missed the point of this discussion.

We were originally discussing using the S&M UHD HDR disk to determine the correct color space to select on a player. The Oppo 203, for example, allows different color space settings to be selected, and one is likely to be the "correct" setting, given the other hardware in the video chain.

Then someone asked whether the same color space settings should be used for other source devices, specifically the AppleTV 4K. While previous versions of the tvOS allowed the user to select a color space, the current tvOS public beta version 13 no longer has the option to select the color space. When 1080P HDR or 4k HDR is selected, the player automatically selects 4:2:2, which is clearly shown on the "About" screen. When Dolby Vision is selected, the color space is not shown, but one would assume that it is 4:2:2. The point is, Apple has removed the option for the user to specify the color space, so the argument is moot.
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post #170 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 03:08 PM
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If you all are trying to CHANGE the chroma output on the Apple TV, it’s actually done in the Video and Audio section of settings if I remember correctly.
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post #171 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 03:32 PM
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If you all are trying to CHANGE the chroma output on the Apple TV, it’s actually done in the Video and Audio section of settings if I remember correctly.
It is no longer an option in tvOS 13 public beta. Can we get back to discussing the S&M disk?
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post #172 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’️s only for SDR. For 4K HDR the options are 4:2:0 and 4:2:2.
The ATV 4K running tvOS 13 no longer offers these options. The options are 4K Dolby Vision, 4K HDR, and 4K SDR (and a bunch of other choices). The Match Content options offer matching Dynamic Range.
I am running TVOS 13 and the option to change Chroma is still there. The options are 4:2:2 and 4:2:0. It’s in settings > Audio & Video > Chroma.

Sorry to keep the thread derailed. Just want to help.
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post #173 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 05:38 PM
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Sorry, check the version you are running. The current beta is 17J5515e, and the Chroma is not there (at least not on my ATV 4K, and I don’t know why mine would be different from yours).
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post #174 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 05:48 PM
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Sorry, check the version you are running. The current beta is 17J5515e, and the Chroma is not there (at least not on my ATV 4K, and I don’t know why mine would be different from yours).
That’s the same version I’m running, and yet I have the options, as mentioned previously:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58308014
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post #175 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 06:01 PM
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Sorry, check the version you are running. The current beta is 17J5515e, and the Chroma is not there (at least not on my ATV 4K, and I don’️t know why mine would be different from yours).
That is weird. I’m on the same version. Can’t imagine why I see the option and others don’t. But I can change it in Audio and video settings.

Edit: I just updated my Apple TV to the latest beta that came out today and my options for 422 and 420 are still present. So I did some quick experimenting on my system. I have a Denon AVR and one of its options is for HDMI Video to be "Standard" or "Enhanced." I usually have it on Enhanced, but for fun I changed it to standard and the options for chroma on my Apple TV changed. I still have the options to change it (Now from 420 or 444) but perhaps since changing that setting on my Denon affected the options on my ATV, maybe something up the chain on your devices is also affecting your ability to choose Chroma.

@sspears

Getting this back on track. Are your discs pretty readily available? I ask because I want to get this disc for my buddy for his Birthday but that isn't until like December so I am just wondering if I need to rush out and buy another copy or if I can wait and be able to get it closer to when I need it.

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Well, I don’t see that option, and I don’t know why the behavior of my ATV 4K would be different from any other ATV 4K. I have asked this question in the tvOS public beta thread to see if anyone can shed light on the issue. I wonder if the options on the Video screen could be dynamically configured based on the EDID information from the HDMI handshake?
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Mystery solved. When I set my format to 1080p HDR, the Chroma option appears. When I set it to Dolby Vision, the option is no longer there. So, it would seem that would explain why you guys are seeing the Chroma option, correct?

So, what does this mean? AppleTV is automatically setting the color space when Dolby Vision is enabled, so we don’t need to worry about whether the color space is set correctly.

Back to the regular programming...
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post #178 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 08:09 PM
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@sspears

Getting this back on track. Are your discs pretty readily available? I ask because I want to get this disc for my buddy for his Birthday but that isn't until like December so I am just wondering if I need to rush out and buy another copy or if I can wait and be able to get it closer to when I need it.
Amazon will have it when you need it.

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post #179 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 08:12 PM
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Mystery solved. When I set my format to 1080p HDR, the Chroma option appears. When I set it to Dolby Vision, the option is no longer there. So, it would seem that would explain why you guys are seeing the Chroma option, correct?

So, what does this mean? AppleTV is automatically setting the color space when Dolby Vision is enabled, so we don’t need to worry about whether the color space is set correctly.

Back to the regular programming...
If the decoding of Dolby Vision is done in the source device, which OPPO calls Player-led (aka Low Latency), then 12-bit 4:2:2 is sent to the display. If it is in what OPPO calls TV-led (aka tunneled), then 8-bit RGB is sent to the display. Now, before you freak out about 8-bit RGB, its not really 8-bit RGB. It is 12-bit 4:2:2 pretending it is 8-bit RGB to make it through an AVR, or other device, w/o being messed with. 8-bit RGB is the only mandatory format for HDMI and 12-bit 4:2:2 and 8-bit RGB are the same number of bits in total.

When Dolby Vision is selected, the output is locked and you can't change it. For HDR10 and SDR, you can select whatever you like. What i mean by this is that if you set your BD player to output 10-bit 4:4:4, that will be overridden for Dolby Vision output.

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post #180 of 367 Old 07-17-2019, 08:14 PM
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I have been considering getting an Apple TV to have a Dolby Vision VUDU source, so I have enjoyed the side discussion.

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