RGB being clipped? But not YCBCR? Help? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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RGB being clipped? But not YCBCR? Help?

Hey guys.

Slight problem that's bugging me.

Got an old Seiki LCD TV, yeah it's old and crappy but it's actually serving me well for the time being. And a Denon AVR 2313 reciever. Now my problem is, using the Spears & Munsil Bluray, I need to use my receivers brightness and contrast sliders ON TOP of my tvs sliders to get good results in ycbcr which according to the patterns I am. However, seeing as I mostly game on Ps4, switching the colorspace to RGB for Spears & Munsil, I get definite clipping in blacks and whites, whether I use the help of my recievers picture sliders or not.

So, although it seems perfect for movies, ycbcr, Im not sure it's transferring very well over to games. Unless I'm doing the wrong thing by setting my ps3 to rgb for calibration for games. Any advice would be welcome to my ocd brain on this stuff lol.

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post #2 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Bump* Anyone at all?

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post #3 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 11:08 AM
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YCbCr uses a scale of 16-235 from Black to full White. RGB can be 16-235 but is usually 0-255. This means if your TV is set up for YCbCr at 16-235 but you feed it RGB at 0-255 (usually called "Full" or "High"), anything below 16 and over 235 will not be displayed, merging into Black at the low end and into White at the high end.
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post #4 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
YCbCr uses a scale of 16-235 from Black to full White. RGB can be 16-235 but is usually 0-255. This means if your TV is set up for YCbCr at 16-235 but you feed it RGB at 0-255 (usually called "Full" or "High"), anything below 16 and over 235 will not be displayed, merging into Black at the low end and into White at the high end.
Does that apply to RGB still even if I'm outputting RGB at 16-235?

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post #5 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post
Does that apply to RGB still even if I'm outputting RGB at 16-235?

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See here: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...ion-3/61370478

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Last edited by Rolls-Royce; 07-30-2019 at 12:14 PM.
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post #6 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
It shouldn't really matter about full range or limited range, limited range should be fine as rgb is backwards compatible with limited range. So calibrating for games with a setup disc outputting RGB from the Ps3 should be right, right?

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post #7 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post
It shouldn't really matter about full range or limited range, limited range should be fine as rgb is backwards compatible with limited range. So calibrating for games with a setup disc outputting RGB from the Ps3 should be right, right?

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The video range does matter, and is the key to what you were seeing. You have a mismatch somewhere, "backwards compatible" or not.

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post #8 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
The video range does matter, and is the key to what you were seeing. You have a mismatch somewhere, "backwards compatible" or not.
Can this clipping in RGB still happen even if I have everything set to limited?

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post #9 of 14 Old 07-30-2019, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post
Can this clipping in RGB still happen even if I have everything set to limited?

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In theory, yes. It all depends on what the TV does with that signal. If it only accepts RGB at 0-255 in the expectation that it's dealing with a PC or game console, your PS3 has two choices: output what the TV wants, which will give you, the user, a picture. Or strictly follow your directions and risk an "Out of Range" or "Format not Supported" message from the TV and an irate call to Sony. As the discussion I linked to earlier points out, it's complicated.

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post #10 of 14 Old 08-05-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post
Can this clipping in RGB still happen even if I have everything set to limited?
Hi,

Using PS3, when you will playback a Blu-Ray disk, as we know it can output YCbCr or RGB-Limited, it's up to user to select each one output using PS3 options.

With RGB-Limited it will clip Above Reference White (236-254) and below Reference Black (1-15), so you will not able to see any contrast flashing bar above 235 by reducing your display Contrast slider. (and below 16 in Brightness Pattern)

Only by using a combination of YCbCr output with Super White On, it will display Above Reference White Flashing Bars when you will look a Contrast Pattern, and not clip below 16.

Each selection of between these 2 output options, it will impact the output of your player, there measurable differences if you take measurements with x-Point Grayscale/Saturation/Luminance/ColorChecker pattern etc. means that its not having a 'transparent' video signal output, some processing will affect the output picture.

So calibrate using YCbCr output, for not clipping your 'headroom'.

You can see why you need to leave 'headroom' there, with some picture examples of 'out of video legal range values' using 'Mission Impossible - Fallout (Blu-Ray)' movie as example there.

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post #11 of 14 Old 08-05-2019, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi,

Using PS3, when you will playback a Blu-Ray disk, as we know it can output YCbCr or RGB-Limited, it's up to user to select each one output using PS3 options.

With RGB-Limited it will clip Above Reference White (236-254) and below Reference Black (1-15), so you will not able to see any contrast flashing bar above 235 by reducing your display Contrast slider. (and below 16 in Brightness Pattern)

Only by using a combination of YCbCr output with Super White On, it will display Above Reference White Flashing Bars when you will look a Contrast Pattern, and not clip below 16.

Each selection of between these 2 output options, it will impact the output of your player, there measurable differences if you take measurements with x-Point Grayscale/Saturation/Luminance/ColorChecker pattern etc. means that its not having a 'transparent' video signal output, some processing will affect the output picture.

So calibrate using YCbCr output, for not clipping your 'headroom'.

You can see why you need to leave 'headroom' there, with some picture examples of 'out of video legal range values' using 'Mission Impossible - Fallout (Blu-Ray)' movie as example there.
Thanks Tedd. So is this just an issue with the ps3s RGB output selection? What about playing games, if they output natively in RGB does that mean they are also clipping?

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post #12 of 14 Old 08-05-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post
Thanks Tedd. So is this just an issue with the ps3s RGB output selection? What about playing games, if they output natively in RGB does that mean they are also clipping?
Set YCbCr (Super White ON) and you will have no clipping to the games also.

BTW PS4 don't clip with RGB-Limited, but even there, YCbCr is better to use for having 2160p60 10/12 bit.

If you have PS4 see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58380318

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post #13 of 14 Old 08-05-2019, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Finally I found an answer to this, thanks guys.

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post #14 of 14 Old 08-12-2019, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, here to bother you again. I wanted to ask what would be the best way to calibrate for games? Should I use a normal setup disc like spears and munsil? Output them in ycbcr or rgb? And what about games output, do they display WTW and BTB and set it up like I would for films or is it slightly different?

I do play games a lot so setting up to the best they can be is important to me.

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