Grayscale controls don't match test patterns - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Old 07-30-2019, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Grayscale controls don't match test patterns

I'm trying to calibrate my TCL 55s421 using an i1 Display Pro and the AVSHD709 test patterns loaded onto a USB stick, connected directly to the tv and played through the Roku Media Player.

My issue is that say for instance I bring up an 80% gray window and then use the grayscale controls to adjust it, the 80% controls in the Roku app don't affect the grayscale.

I usually have to use the blue control for 70% and the red controls from 80%.

I hope this makes sense and I'd really appreciate any help with understanding what's going on. Thank you kindly!
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post #2 of 26 Old 07-30-2019, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
I'm trying to calibrate my TCL 55s421 using an i1 Display Pro and the AVSHD709 test patterns loaded onto a USB stick, connected directly to the tv and played through the Roku Media Player.

My issue is that say for instance I bring up an 80% gray window and then use the grayscale controls to adjust it, the 80% controls in the Roku app don't affect the grayscale.

I usually have to use the blue control for 70% and the red controls from 80%.

I hope this makes sense and I'd really appreciate any help with understanding what's going on. Thank you kindly!
“Control displacement” is fairly common, but in most cases the three colours are affected the same way. Did you make significant adjustments to the R/G/B gain controls?
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post #3 of 26 Old 07-31-2019, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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That you said control displacement is fairly common helped put me at ease as I thought I was doing something wrong.

I was getting really bad images from my calibration that read really well and it was getting frustrating.

I then factory reset all the picture settings on the display and re-calibrated it and got great readings again, but I didn't have to adjust the controls nearly as far and the image looks stellar in comparison to factory and my initial, awful calibration.

Thank you for your help!
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post #4 of 26 Old 08-01-2019, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
That you said control displacement is fairly common helped put me at ease as I thought I was doing something wrong.

I was getting really bad images from my calibration that read really well and it was getting frustrating.

I then factory reset all the picture settings on the display and re-calibrated it and got great readings again, but I didn't have to adjust the controls nearly as far and the image looks stellar in comparison to factory and my initial, awful calibration.
Hi,

What calibration controls you have available for Grayscale?

2 or 10-Point? If you have 2-Point have you start with 2-point using 100-30% patterns and then you move to 10p?

Do you have CMS controls also. Have you started with pre-cal of brightness/contrast and color clipping patterns and then you moved to meter measurements?

What calibration software are you using?

Be sure that any image enhancement feature is disabled, any power saving, any ambient sensor, local dimming etc.

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post #5 of 26 Old 08-01-2019, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
I'm trying to calibrate my TCL 55s421 using an i1 Display Pro and...
I suggest using HCFR in place of the test patterns and X-rite SW. It automates grey scale, other measurements; provides targets based on standards.
https://sourceforge.net/p/hcfr/wiki/Home/

I've used it to calibrate a TCL 55P615 and 75P615, as well as an LG 50UK6090PUA with no issues (besides a clunky LG interface).

HAve fun,
Frank
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post #6 of 26 Old 08-02-2019, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I am using HCFR as that's what I'm most used to and I can't afford CalMan (which is love to have) D:

I was able to get it calibrated and it looks great, but it was a massive pain to do due to the controls not matching the patterns, but I worked around it.

For instance, the 100% controls of the 11 point grayscale in the phone app do nothing to affect the meter readings no matter what I try, which seems weird to me, but it just means I had to use red from 90% and blue from 80%.. it was a hot mess, but I got it finally lol
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post #7 of 26 Old 08-02-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kamui View Post
I am using HCFR as that's what I'm most used to and I can't afford CalMan (which is love to have) D:

I was able to get it calibrated and it looks great, but it was a massive pain to do due to the controls not matching the patterns, but I worked around it.

For instance, the 100% controls of the 11 point grayscale in the phone app do nothing to affect the meter readings no matter what I try, which seems weird to me, but it just means I had to use red from 90% and blue from 80%.. it was a hot mess, but I got it finally lol
Try to measure with 21-Point patterns and see how it goes, its better for detecting un-align of calibration controls adjustments with displayed xx% patterns, then try to apply some adjustments to 10-Point RGB balance to see if its improving further your results.

There display's which are suffering with some issues related with a un-align of available calibration controls (10-Point RGB Balance) to the working effecting range of the signal, for example when you display a 50% Gray patch and you dial 50% Gray RGB balance, internally to the display its not changing the 50% of Gray but another level...for example 42% or 56% etc...just for example.)

This makes the calibration more difficult and you will always introduce anomalies when you will finish a 10-Point RGB balance and you display a Grayscale Ramp, there will be visible issues there with strange color-shades.

There specific values (to each display) of contrast/brightness controls which are align better the calibration controls and it will be helpful to measure with 21-Point Grayscale patterns when you calibrate using the available 10-Point controls you have. Doing this will be able to spot better any anomaly and prevent issues.

ts also a better idea to take full grayscale sweep and not do real-time adjustments, to be able to spot easier your adjustments how they affect the grayscale performance....so measure fully grayscale (with menu OSD off)....then look your RGB Balance / Gamma charts....open OSD...apply the adjustments you believe they will help...then close OSD and remeasure grayscale again.

To some displays, the RGB balance controls design in such way where they will align better to exact 10-p luminance levels when you will have contrast/brightness to default positions, to other models it will align better when you will have contrast at max position, this is something you need to test. That un-alignment can interact and shift each RGB balance controls to higher or lower affecting luminance range.

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post #8 of 26 Old 08-02-2019, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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When I did the 21 point sweep, there was indeed awful spikes and dips not present with the 10 point, so that tip helped me a lot! Thank you.

I'm confused by you saying to not make real time readings / adjustments. How would that be more beneficial and I don't know how I could guess what they might be without that constant feedback.

Separately, I calibrated the CMS with 100% patterns, but today I did 75% instead and got much less saturated colors, which does indeed look more natural to me, but I was surprised at how much the variance was and it makes me curious how far off my colors really are at different saturation levels and as far as I know, I can't do the saturation sweeps with the AVSHD 709 disc.
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post #9 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
When I did the 21 point sweep, there was indeed awful spikes and dips not present with the 10 point, so that tip helped me a lot! Thank you.

I'm confused by you saying to not make real time readings / adjustments. How would that be more beneficial and I don't know how I could guess what they might be without that constant feedback.
I mean don't do 100% White in real-time RGB adjustment and then go to 90% Gray, do real-time, then go to 80% Gray etc...

Measure whole Grayscale with 21-Point Grayscale and then look the software RGB balance chart, if you see that the mid-top end of you grayscale has more red, then open your OSD menu remove red from 50-60-70-80-90-100, with values you believe it will redure the Red Y error, then close the OSD menu and re-measure again with 21-Point.....so you will see the new charts not and decide what to do to reduce other errors etc, and have better idea how the whole grayscale affected by your changed.

Doing this, you will have much smoother gradation later when you will look a Grayscale Ramp since your adjustments per each control point will be more linear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
Separately, I calibrated the CMS with 100% patterns, but today I did 75% instead and got much less saturated colors, which does indeed look more natural to me, but I was surprised at how much the variance was and it makes me curious how far off my colors really are at different saturation levels and as far as I know, I can't do the saturation sweeps with the AVSHD 709 disc.
About the patterns you are using for your CMS calibration, when you have patterns with 75% Saturation and 75% Luminance then use 75% REC.709 colorspace target @ HCFR preferences.

Note that AVSHD disk patterns named as 75% Color have 100% Saturation with 75% Luminance (not with 75% Saturation) while the100% color patterns you see labeled have 100% Saturation and 100% Luminance level.

This means that with HCFR and AVSHD you have to use only the 'REC.709' as target colorspace when you are using AVSHD CMS patterns.

BTW, there a mis-match in AVSHD Grayscale patterns when you are using HCFR, to resolve this, HCFR will add an offset to fix that issue.



There is a grayscale levels mismatch between grayscale patterns available to AVSHD with the patterns HCFR engine calculated the dE, but HCFR has an option to its preferences to fix that level mismatch.

The ''normal rounding' (untick the round down) is for calibration disks designed for HCFR or ChromaPure so HCFR will work normally like how it's been programmed (RGB triplets of HCFR are based to same RGB triplets of ChromaPure's engine).

But you should 'use round down' for AVSHD and DVE disks because these disks are not matching exactly the levels that HCFR (and ChromaPure) engine's is expecting for the grayscale measurements/dE calculations.

ChromaPure/CalMAN...don't have that 'round down' option to their settings.

So HCFR users with AVSHD/DVE disks will not have 100% exact match for the half of the grayscale measurements if they don't tick the 'use round down'.

The difference you will have @ gamma calculations when you haven't ticked the 'use round down' will be:

5% Gray = -19.22% Luminance error
10% Gray = -9.23% Luminance error
15% Gray = -5.82% Luminance error
20% Gray = -4.10% Luminance error
25% Gray = 3.07% Luminance error
30% Gray = 2.39% Luminance error
35% Gray = 1.90 % Luminance error
40% Gray = 1.53 % Luminance error

Also the 4-Point Saturation of AVSHD is not compatible with HCFR (and there no fix about this), for example:

AVSHD 50% Red Saturation Pattern has RGB Triplet 190.95.95 but HCFR's Color Engine needs/calculates errors from RGB Triplet 191.96.96, it's 0.42 dE2000 error.

AVSHD 75% Magenta Saturation Pattern has RGB Triplet 203.100.203 but HCFR's Color Engine needs/calculates errors from RGB Triplet 202.99.202, it's 0.36 dE2000 error.

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post #10 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a lot of information to take in, but I've been breaking it down and working on it a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond with so much helpful information!

I have another question if you don't mind: my tv doesn't have 11 point grayscale controls, so I've been dialing in bt.1886 by adjusting the RGB 11 point grayscale controls.. Is that okay or am I potentially messing up something else by doing that?

The only built in gamma controls I have are a preselection of 1.8, 2.0, 2.2, and 2.4.
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post #11 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
I can't do the saturation sweeps with the AVSHD 709 disc.
If you confirm that your laptop’s output matches the disc patterns, you can use HCFR’s internal patterns to check the saturation sweep and Colorchecker patterns.
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post #12 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I did want to do that and use DisplayCal to see what it would come up with, but I couldn't get the laptop to match (it's old and crummy is my guess as to why).
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post #13 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 10:11 AM
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I did want to do that and use DisplayCal to see what it would come up with, but I couldn't get the laptop to match (it's old and crummy is my guess as to why).
“Old” isn’t necessarily an issue. There may be some settings that need to be changed. Can you post the HCFR data files for both disc and internal patterns?
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post #14 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I said old because it only outputs 1080p to the display, when it's "4k", so I thought that might have something to do with the variance.

I'll try to remember how to output my HCFR files (I haven't calibrated in years, so I'm getting back into it and trying to remember everything)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
I said old because it only outputs 1080p to the display, when it's "4k", so I thought that might have something to do with the variance.
The AVS discs are also 1080p.

Quote:
I'll try to remember how to output my HCFR files (I haven't calibrated in years, so I'm getting back into it and trying to remember everything)
You just need to do a Save in HCFR, and zip the .chc file.
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post #16 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui View Post
This is a lot of information to take in, but I've been breaking it down and working on it a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond with so much helpful information!

I have another question if you don't mind: my tv doesn't have 11 point grayscale controls, so I've been dialing in bt.1886 by adjusting the RGB 11 point grayscale controls.. Is that okay or am I potentially messing up something else by doing that?

The only built in gamma controls I have are a preselection of 1.8, 2.0, 2.2, and 2.4.
Hi, start by taking 21-Point Grayscale readings the 2.4, 2.2 and 2.0 preset you have available.

Compare the results you will see for gamma tracking and use for your calibrated the gamma preset which is closer to your target.

Use 2.4 gamma and not BT.1886.

Then using 11-Point RGB balance controls you will handle and fix gamma issues also, when you will reduce or increase all RGB of one control, it will arr or remove Y from that Gray patch.

If you have 2-Point RGB balance, start from there and do 100% White and 30% Gray, then move to 11-Point RGB balance.

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post #17 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Why not bt.1886? I thought that's how studios were mastering HD work (I'll try the 2.4 flat and see how it compares)
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post #18 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Also if I do 2.4, should I select the black compensation in HCFR references?
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Why not bt.1886? I thought that's how studios were mastering HD work (I'll try the 2.4 flat and see how it compares)
BT1886 can be a problem on displays/projectors with lifted blacks, due to the way it raises gamma in the shadow region. This causes the shadows to become washed-out, which in turn will cause the colorist to attempt to grade the shadows darker. When the graded footage is then viewed on a display with a standard power law gamma, or a display with a lower black and calibrated to BT1886, the shadows will appear crushed.

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Also if I do 2.4, should I select the black compensation in HCFR references?
Go to HCFR Preferences -> Advanced -> change the Grayscale handling to ''Absolute w/gamma'', to include to the dE calculation the gamma errors also.

Look at each % Grey data the meter reports, there is a Y (which shows to you the measured luminance) and the Y target (which show the target luminance)

@ HCFR Preferences ->Referencies, sewt HDTV-REC.709, display gamma (black compensation) Power Law Gamma 2.4.

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post #21 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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It wouldn't let me upload a .chc file, so hopefully this works.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1K4...3UKwSrevmUDvhl

sspears:
(Rules? Rules? In Television???? Thou shalt not oversaturateth red. RGB shall be thy rod and thy staff; there shall be no other color space before thee.)
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It wouldn't let me upload a .chc file, so hopefully this works.
In order to see the difference I need both sets of results - with disc patterns and with internal patterns.

To upload chc files simply zip them first.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-03-2019 at 07:59 PM.
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post #23 of 26 Old 08-03-2019, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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@Ted : What color difference formula should I choose? I have to choose one in order to change the Gray Scale dE handling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Go to HCFR Preferences -> Advanced -> change the Grayscale handling to ''Absolute w/gamma'', to include to the dE calculation the gamma errors also.
A much quicker way is to right-click on the RGB graph and select w/ or w/o gamma.
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post #25 of 26 Old 08-04-2019, 12:02 AM
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@Ted : What color difference formula should I choose? I have to choose one in order to change the Gray Scale dE handling
dE2000

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post #26 of 26 Old 08-04-2019, 03:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I chose dE2000 based on a guess haha.

I re-calibrated again, used 2.4 w/ black compensation, and the images look stellar!

I thought for sure I'd lose a lot of details in the dark areas, but I don't seem to be, just the blacks look deeper to me and it's really fantastic!

I don't know if I'm going to do a calibration with the laptop to the display because it sounds like a huge pain for something I won't use (I'm mainly calibrating for my PS4 Pro), but I might anyways at some point just to see the color sweeps and color checker patterns, etc.

Thank you for all the help again!
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