ΔEITP is Now ITU-R BT.2124--Is the Industry Ready to Move on From ΔE2000? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 08-12-2019, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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ΔEITP is Now ITU-R BT.2124--Is the Industry Ready to Move on From ΔE2000?

I am very, very interested in this subject. As I can't be present at this EVENT:


Is there any possibility that it will be streamed or, at least, that the various speeches will be transcribed on the SMPTE website? Are the event and/or speakers confirmed? Because Miss Meininger deleted from her Facebook profile any reference to her work experience at Portrait Displays. She's no longer working for CalMAN? If so, it's really a pity. I was excited about her hiring, she looks like a person who knows profoundly color science.

When she got the job (July 2018):


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post #2 of 33 Old 08-12-2019, 06:15 AM
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dEITP is not suitable as a replacement for dE2000.
They are aimed at very different applications when it comes to error reporting.
(No dE formula should be used when actually performing calibration.)

Steve

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post #3 of 33 Old 08-12-2019, 05:50 PM
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Yes, Catherine and myself will be presenting this technical paper at the 2019 SMPTE Conference in LA. They will be recording a video of the presentation and publishing it on YouTube sometime after the event.
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post #4 of 33 Old 08-12-2019, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
dEITP is not suitable as a replacement for dE2000.
They are aimed at very different applications when it comes to error reporting.
(No dE formula should be used when actually performing calibration.)

Steve
Can you please elaborate on that, Steve?

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ΔEITP is Now ITU-R BT.2124--Is the Industry Ready to Move on From ΔE2000?



I can’t wait for everybody to read this paper.
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post #6 of 33 Old 08-12-2019, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool. Please, link the video in this thread when it will be available.

I created an Excel spreadsheet for dE2000 and dEITP to have a faster tool to compare the “ΔΙΑΦΟΡΑ* (Diafora)” between FCCM and TMC results. That’s why I’m sincerely interested.

*Greek word from where the Δ (Delta) symbol originates. It means “difference”.

Steve’s assertion is correct. A Delta formula is only used to determine the difference between 2+ points. Frankly, I don’t even know how it could be used to build a display profile or a LUT.

Miki
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post #7 of 33 Old 08-13-2019, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Steve’s assertion is correct. A Delta formula is only used to determine the difference between 2+ points. Frankly, I don’t even know how it could be used to build a display profile or a LUT.
As far as I know, some autocal mechanisms work by changing parameters and using the improvement in dE to judge whether or not to keep the change or carry on tweaking. I don't know about the inner workings of Calman, but I did have Chromapure and this appears to be how it generates 3DLUTs in the Lumagen advanced autocal it has; by changing single LUT values and checking the measurements. When you watch the log you can see it behave in this way. I was never very impressed with the LUTs coming out of the Chromapure process.
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post #8 of 33 Old 08-13-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Cool. Please, link the video in this thread when it will be available.

I created an Excel spreadsheet for dE2000 and dEITP to have a faster tool to compare the “ΔΙΑΦΟΡΑ* (Diafora)” between FCCM and TMC results. That’s why I’m sincerely interested.

*Greek word from where the Δ (Delta) symbol originates. It means “difference”.

Steve’s assertion is correct. A Delta formula is only used to determine the difference between 2+ points. Frankly, I don’t even know how it could be used to build a display profile or a LUT.

Miki
After switching my workflow from De2000 to DEITP I ended up creating a layout comparing the De2000 and DEITP values for the grayscale and color checker post-calibration readings. I found it interesting that the differences by reading are not uniform, though DEITP tended to be visibly higher.

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post #9 of 33 Old 08-13-2019, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, the problem with dEITP, at least for me and my Excel spreadsheet, it is that it starts with a RGB to LMS conversion. So I have to convert my XYZ readings to RGB and that gives me frequently negative values and, therefore, errors.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Yes, the problem with dEITP, at least for me and my Excel spreadsheet, it is that it starts with a RGB to LMS conversion. So I have to convert my XYZ readings to RGB and that gives me frequently negative values and, therefore, errors.


The ITU document talks about negative values.

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post #11 of 33 Old 08-14-2019, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it says to “not clamp” them throughout the conversion to ITP. My problem is that excel returns “#NUM” with negative numbers. I will recheck the implementation of the formula and report back.

The document talks about negative numbers in Annex 4, paragraphs 3&4. Short story: if you want to analyze only colors within BT.2100 color volume, then negative numbers must be clamped to 0 and, I guess, numbers>1 to 1 (?). But, if you want to consider colors as they are actually measured, then negative numbers should not be clamped.

EDIT: Ok, the formula I used for XYZ-RGB conversion is different from the one suggested in the ITU-R BT.2124 document, probably it has the correct matrix for the BT. 2100 color space while I was using the Rec.709 inverse matrix. After I've implemented that, all is fine. Cheers.
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post #12 of 33 Old 10-18-2019, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Cool. Please, link the video in this thread when it will be available.

I created an Excel spreadsheet for dE2000 and dEITP to have a faster tool to compare the “ΔΙΑΦΟΡΑ* (Diafora)” between FCCM and TMC results. That’s why I’m sincerely interested.
Sorry, what is FCCM? What is TMC?

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post #13 of 33 Old 10-18-2019, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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FCCM = Four Colors Correction Matrix, TMC = Three Matrix Calibration which is a LG new method to profile probes but our (mine and @ebr9999 ‘s) tests didn’t give expected results.

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post #14 of 33 Old 10-18-2019, 11:49 AM
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Ah yes, thanks. btw I'm delighted to see the "Δ" character used in the thread title and working
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post #15 of 33 Old 10-19-2019, 04:15 AM
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It is interesting that even the ITU admit that dE ITP is not suitable for displays that have 'non-specified' peak luma values.
That means all home TVs, where the peak luma can be anything from 100 nits to 400+, depending on the viewing environment...

I guess what it really means is that dE ITP is really only suitable for PQ based HDR.

And that's where dE ITPR comes into being.

Is this really better than dE 2000?
I wonder...

Steve
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post #16 of 33 Old 10-20-2019, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
It is interesting that even the ITU admit that dE ITP is not suitable for displays that have 'non-specified' peak luma values.
That means all home TVs, where the peak luma can be anything from 100 nits to 400+, depending on the viewing environment...

I guess what it really means is that dE ITP is really only suitable for PQ based HDR.
What if you are calibrating for SDR, and you want to target a peak luminance of 120nits, surely then that is a specified value?

Quote:
And that's where dE ITPR comes into being.
Never heard of that one.

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post #17 of 33 Old 10-20-2019, 05:11 AM
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As it says, that's where dE ITPR comes into being.
(Have a look at the specification doc.)
It really is not at all straightforward...

Steve
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post #18 of 33 Old 10-20-2019, 05:29 AM
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Ok, I wouldn't know where to look and I fear it'll be one of those documents with lots of hard sums in it, and squiggly lines I don't understand anyway.

One thing I've learned about this hobby is that every time I get to the top of the mountain and I think I've done a nice calibration[*], a new mountain is revealed (with hidden man-traps on the paths) and I'm actually still close to the bottom, and people say "oh, didn't you know about X"?
[*] which looks, showing content, massively better than before, so I am happy anyway.

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post #19 of 33 Old 10-20-2019, 05:39 AM
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I have to agree with Florian's comment, that there not available any non-Dolby researcher study about dE ITP: https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/19763/

This reminds me the other Dolby's study to 'push' Dolby ICtCp for content encoding (to replace YCbCr) where according to Dolby ICtCp is better, but there experiments where they have found weaknesses also, the group called ''Joint Collaborative Team on Video Coding (JCTVC)'' has performed some testing comparing non constant or constant luminance YCbCr vs. ICtCp, and found that YCbCr has better coverage of pure colors close to edge of the 2020 gamut (Reference: Joint Collaborative Team on Video Coding (JCTVC-X0051) - ICtCp colour representation - Observations & Findings), so ICtCp is not clearly better to all areas, and can make a good improvement overall of they will move from YCbCr 4:2:0 to YCbCr 4:2:2.
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I guess the ITU-R doesn’t know what they’re talking about right?

DE2000 has major flaws and is mostly useful for reflective measurements of actual objects like paint and printer ink and not display devices.

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post #21 of 33 Old 10-21-2019, 03:26 AM
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[quote=WiFi-Spy;58710078]I guess the ITU-R doesn’t know what they’re talking about right?

Industry's standard for display calibration is dE2000 for ages, and your company don't say anywhere that dE2000 is not suitable for display calibration measurements:

https://app.spectracal.com/Documents...%20AutoCal.pdf
https://kb.portrait.com/help/visual-color-comparison
https://kb.portrait.com/help/ictcp-c...ference-metric

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
DE2000 has major flaws and is mostly useful for reflective measurements of actual objects like paint and printer ink and not display devices.
To the following page you have to add that 'ΔE' derived from the Greek work 'delta' and German word 'Empfindung' that translates to 'difference in sensation'.... as its explaining only the 'E':

https://kb.portrait.com/help/about-deltae-e



Removing the Luminance errors from de ITP for the charts to look pretty is not valid evaluation of a display performance also.

dE reporting of gamut for consumer displays will always have many errors, whatever formula you will use.

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[quote=ConnecTEDDD;58711056]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
I guess the ITU-R doesn’t know what they’re talking about right?

Industry's standard for display calibration is dE2000 for ages, and your company don't say anywhere that dE2000 is not suitable for display calibration measurements:

https://app.spectracal.com/Documents...%20AutoCal.pdf
https://kb.portrait.com/help/visual-color-comparison
https://kb.portrait.com/help/ictcp-c...ference-metric



To the following page you have to add that 'ΔE' derived from the Greek work 'delta' and German word 'Empfindung' that translates to 'difference in sensation'.... as its explaining only the 'E':

https://kb.portrait.com/help/about-deltae-e

Spoiler!

Removing the Luminance errors from de ITP for the charts to look pretty is not valid evaluation of a display performance also.

dE reporting of gamut for consumer displays will always have many errors, whatever formula you will use.
TEDD, as I understand it and is currently implemented in the current SDR Analysis workflow, selecting DeITP from the dropdown includes luminance error by default. DeITP Compensated would not include the luminance error.

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post #23 of 33 Old 10-21-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post

TEDD, as I understand it and is currently implemented in the current SDR Analysis workflow, selecting DeITP from the dropdown includes luminance error by default. DeITP Compensated would not include the luminance error.
Both (with and without Y) are provided to the picture I have attached.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Both (with and without Y) are provided to the picture I have attached.
Undersdtood, but from your wording I was under the impression you were implying CalMAN was promoting not showing the luminance error, which they are not, quite the opposite. Apologies if that wasn't your intention.

From what I've seen the DeITP implemented in their workflows is DeITP 720 with lumiunance error, not 240, which is much stricter. As I understand it plain DeITP has been defined as DeITP 720 with luminance error.

I believe their workflows are being updated to follow suit. I got into these complications when I updated my workflow to DeITP from De2000, even including a layout comparing the two, with and without luminance error.
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post #25 of 33 Old 10-21-2019, 10:37 AM
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ΔEITP is Now ITU-R BT.2124--Is the Industry Ready to Move on From ΔE2000?

DE2000 is the industry standard, until it isn’t. That day is coming very soon.

DE2000 is really only useful for SDR non-WCG measurements between 15-100 nits.

DE1994 and DE2000 tried to mitigate fundamental flaws in their underlying color space, CIELAB. But at the end of the day they were still based on a flawed color space.

(The above information is applicable to display device measurement, not evaluating reflective objects like paint or printer ink)
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Last edited by WiFi-Spy; 10-21-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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post #26 of 33 Old 10-21-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Undersdtood, but from your wording I was under the impression you were implying CalMAN was promoting not showing the luminance error, which they are not, quite the opposite. Apologies if that wasn't your intention.



From what I've seen the DeITP implemented in their workflows is DeITP 720 with lumiunance error, not 240, which is much stricter. As I understand it plain DeITP has been defined as DeITP 720 with luminance error.



I believe their workflows are being updated to follow suit. I got into these complications when I updated my workflow to DeITP from De2000, even including a layout comparing the two, with and without luminance error.


Without luminance DE formulas are to help users understand if their grayscale error is mainly due to luminance or chromaticity deviation. It also helps people that want to make sure the white point is staying correct during the HDR tone mapping roll-off.
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post #27 of 33 Old 10-21-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Without luminance DE formulas are to help users understand if their grayscale error is mainly due to luminance or chromaticity deviation. It also helps people that want to make sure the white point is staying correct during the HDR tone mapping roll-off.
When I updated my workflow I now show dE both with and without luminance,along with gamma and RGB. It's nice to see how the compensated and luminance errors relate to the gamma and RGB charts.
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post #28 of 33 Old 10-22-2019, 10:37 AM
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As has been said before, any dE 'can' be used for actual calibration, via 3D LUT generation for example, as well as when performing manual measurement adjustments, but it should NOT be used, as it is in no way the best approach to calculate error corrections.

It is only good for attempting to 'suggest' how inaccurate a colour error is based on perceptual visually differences.
So is suitable only for verification.

Using any dE formula to try to correct an error will always be less than ideal, and will never be as accurate as the correction could be, if the correction algorithm used is dedicated to absolute correction - and not an attempt to use a perceived verification value.

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post #29 of 33 Old 10-28-2019, 04:31 PM
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ΔEITP is Now ITU-R BT.2124--Is the Industry Ready to Move on From ΔE2000?

The presentation went great last Wednesday. SMPTE will very soon be making the the paper available via their IEEE digital library, as well as posting a video of the presentation on their YouTube channel.



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post #30 of 33 Old 10-28-2019, 04:45 PM
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The presentation went great last Wednesday. SMPTE will very soon be making the the paper available via their IEEE digital library, as well as posting a video of the presentation on their YouTube channel.


Spoiler!
Can we get links so we can read the text?

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