basic color space questions - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4Likes
  • 1 Post By ConnecTEDDD
  • 1 Post By mombasa123
  • 1 Post By Rolls-Royce
  • 1 Post By ConnecTEDDD
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 16 Old 10-06-2019, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
rbronco21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Question basic color space questions

I have always wondered why contrast on my Sony TVs didn't ever hide whiter than white colors, then I found this article while playing around with Kodi settings. I looks like I am looking for a Limited, Full, Limited pipeline.

https://kodi.wiki/view/Video_levels_and_color_space

I have a Fire TV Stick 4K running Kodi and an Xbox One X for BR and gaming. Everything runs through a Sony AVR (STR-DN1070) and I think it is just passing through the signal. I've used two Sony TVs in this setup, a 2014 XBR-49X850B (no HDR) and 2015 XBR-65X900C (HDR). I have messed around with a lot of settings and thought I was looking for a combination of settings that would allow me to change the TVs' contrast and brightness to see BtB and WtW and then adjust them correctly. Is this what I am looking for? How do I know what my pipeline is?
rbronco21 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
rbronco21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've since tested with a Vero 4K+ to allow 3D and HDR playback. Here are some more specific results using the Vero:

Default Settings (YCbCr, limited) give me ability to adjust Black Level correctly, but Contrast doesn't affect white and I can see up to 252/253.
YCbCr and full give me clipped BtB and WtW at limited levels. I think this is the better option, but I don't know if I'm losing info due to conversions...
I can check the output with RGB, but most of what I've read says YCbCr is best from this box. Of course I've also read so many conflicting ideas that I don't know what to think anymore.
rbronco21 is offline  
post #3 of 16 Old 10-22-2019, 12:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,653
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3399 Post(s)
Liked: 4229
Hi, when you experience such issue, you start by removing the AVR from the chain, until to resolve the problem, so doing this you focus to resolve using Source-TV settings.

All your players have to send YCbCr colorspace to the TV and the TV should expect to receive TV Legal Video (limited) levels.

Another idea is to use a media file (MP4/MKV) and to load it directly to TV's USB, so to see what is happening to TV's controls adjustments, so to find out about the settings which will not clip your 'headroom'.

After that test, you will use the same pattern from your streamers.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 16 Old 10-23-2019, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
rbronco21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Is running YouTube on the TV itself accurate? It's easy to find basic patterns, but I don't know if streaming causing changes to colors and levels.
rbronco21 is offline  
post #5 of 16 Old 10-23-2019, 01:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rolls-Royce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 4,217
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1174 Post(s)
Liked: 1261
I wouldn't trust it as a calibration source.

...Royce...

"I never drink...wine."
Bela Lugosi, DRACULA, 1931
Rolls-Royce is online now  
post #6 of 16 Old 10-23-2019, 02:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,653
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3399 Post(s)
Liked: 4229
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbronco21 View Post
Is running YouTube on the TV itself accurate? It's easy to find basic patterns, but I don't know if streaming causing changes to colors and levels.
No, as any video you upload to youtube it will be re-encoded, so it will distort the original pattern values.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #7 of 16 Old 10-31-2019, 02:01 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
No, as any video you upload to youtube it will be re-encoded, so it will distort the original pattern values.
how about uploading the mp4 files to cloud storage. Im using a 4k firestick to view the mp4 files on google drive
Kid Poker is offline  
post #8 of 16 Old 10-31-2019, 07:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,653
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3399 Post(s)
Liked: 4229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Poker View Post
how about uploading the mp4 files to cloud storage. Im using a 4k firestick to view the mp4 files on google drive
I haven't checked that, but if the firestick will use its internal player for playback then it will be OK. (not use any on-line cloud/drive player).

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #9 of 16 Old 11-07-2019, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
rbronco21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the help. Is it normal for a Sony TV to still show white up to 245 with Contrast maxed to 100? Black level performs as expected.

I get this result from the TV's own Youtube app, a Fire Stick 4K, a Vero 4K+ playing the AVS 709 mp4 files, and my Xbox One X playing the AVS 709 disc. I'm excited to have this resolved and try out some of the next steps. Movies already look great (but could use some fine tuning), but I need to get UHD adjusted for Destiny 2 on the Xbox, too.
rbronco21 is offline  
post #10 of 16 Old 11-07-2019, 03:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,653
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3399 Post(s)
Liked: 4229
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbronco21 View Post
Thanks for the help. Is it normal for a Sony TV to still show white up to 245 with Contrast maxed to 100? Black level performs as expected.
Yes, it can be possible, but the point of using the contrast pattern is not to clip to 235 but to allow headroom to see flashing until the latest flashing bar (253).

So you have to reduce contrast.

Also you should not have any strange color-tint to the flashing bars, they should look neutral.
Rolls-Royce likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #11 of 16 Old 11-07-2019, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
rbronco21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I must be missing something or I'm not using the correct terms. Please let me know if I am using the wrong words below, or if I am wrong in how I thought I want to adjust it.

See attached pics. With Contrast at 65, I can see all the way up to 253. With it maxed, I only see up to 240. I thought the point was to adjust it to show up to 235 and clip(?) WtW. I did the same thing with Black Level, but with it set right in the middle (48-50) I see right up to Ref Black. If I adjust it up or down I see more or less, which is what I expected.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG-0318.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	556.1 KB
ID:	2637926   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG-0317.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	511.9 KB
ID:	2637928  
rbronco21 is offline  
post #12 of 16 Old 11-07-2019, 07:04 PM
Senior Member
 
mombasa123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 231
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbronco21 View Post
I've since tested with a Vero 4K+ to allow 3D and HDR playback. Here are some more specific results using the Vero:

Default Settings (YCbCr, limited) give me ability to adjust Black Level correctly, but Contrast doesn't affect white and I can see up to 252/253.
YCbCr and full give me clipped BtB and WtW at limited levels. I think this is the better option, but I don't know if I'm losing info due to conversions...
I can check the output with RGB, but most of what I've read says YCbCr is best from this box. Of course I've also read so many conflicting ideas that I don't know what to think anymore.
Should never clip WTW. Correct settings for Vero 4K+ is YCbCr, Limited. That way you have no conversions going on in teh chain until it hits the TV.
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
mombasa123 is offline  
post #13 of 16 Old 11-07-2019, 07:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rolls-Royce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 4,217
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1174 Post(s)
Liked: 1261
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbronco21 View Post
I must be missing something or I'm not using the correct terms. Please let me know if I am using the wrong words below, or if I am wrong in how I thought I want to adjust it.

See attached pics. With Contrast at 65, I can see all the way up to 253. With it maxed, I only see up to 240. I thought the point was to adjust it to show up to 235 and clip(?) WtW. I did the same thing with Black Level, but with it set right in the middle (48-50) I see right up to Ref Black. If I adjust it up or down I see more or less, which is what I expected.
You will get different opinions on this. Some hold that there should be no info above 235 in SDR and advise setting contrast to clip above that point. Others say there is sometimes content above 235 and so one can/should adjust to allow viewing of that without clipping. I happen to be in the second camp. Do keep in mind that 235 as maximum white is a recommendation only, and not a hard and fast limit. With black, you should see no BTB content.
Dominic Chan likes this.

...Royce...

"I never drink...wine."
Bela Lugosi, DRACULA, 1931
Rolls-Royce is online now  
post #14 of 16 Old 11-07-2019, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
rbronco21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Should never clip WTW. Correct settings for Vero 4K+ is YCbCr, Limited. That way you have no conversions going on in teh chain until it hits the TV.
Thanks for the Vero-specific info. That's what I finally settled on and it matches the TV's internal YouTube and my Fire Stick 4K. Seems to match the Xbox blu-ray player, but the dashboard is a little weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
You will get different opinions on this. Some hold that there should be no info above 235 in SDR and advise setting contrast to clip above that point. Others say there is sometimes content above 235 and so one can/should adjust to allow viewing of that without clipping. I happen to be in the second camp. Do keep in mind that 235 as maximum white is a recommendation only, and not a hard and fast limit. With black, you should see no BTB content.
I've read the same thing about WtW. I am kinda alarmed I have to max Contrast to get it below max white. Is that a cause for concern? Will it cause an issue as I get into more in-depth calibration? Do you prefer to see everything above 235, or is there some compromise?
rbronco21 is offline  
post #15 of 16 Old 11-08-2019, 09:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rolls-Royce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 4,217
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1174 Post(s)
Liked: 1261
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbronco21 View Post
I've read the same thing about WtW. I am kinda alarmed I have to max Contrast to get it below max white. Is that a cause for concern? Will it cause an issue as I get into more in-depth calibration? Do you prefer to see everything above 235, or is there some compromise?
I prefer to adjust so I can see WTW if it's there. I watch a lot of "How It's Made", which features welding and various forms of metal cutting in many episodes. These flares apparently are encoded as WTW, because if my display isn't adjusted to show WTW (and gray scale is properly adjusted to match), they will be presented as bright cyan or magenta. That is distracting, so I adjust for WTW.

...Royce...

"I never drink...wine."
Bela Lugosi, DRACULA, 1931
Rolls-Royce is online now  
post #16 of 16 Old 11-08-2019, 09:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,653
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3399 Post(s)
Liked: 4229
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbronco21 View Post
I've read the same thing about WtW. I am kinda alarmed I have to max Contrast to get it below max white. Is that a cause for concern? Will it cause an issue as I get into more in-depth calibration? Do you prefer to see everything above 235, or is there some compromise?
Hi,

You can see some graphs there about what each control of these are checking: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58776446

You can see why you need to leave 'headroom' there, with some picture examples of 'out of video legal range values' using 'Mission Impossible - Fallout Blu-Ray' movie as example there.

The 'standards' we have recommend to not clip but to allow headroom:

Locale to that page the info related with ''Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitor/TV Calibration Targets''.

According to EBU TECH 3320, Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitor should be been calibrated and capable to produce a reference luminance level of 100 cd/m2 (nits) for 100% White (235 level @ 8-bit) patch on the screen.

Automatic Brightness Limiter (ABL) functions shall not be used for Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitors, this means that the monitor need to be capable to display 100 cd/m2 with a full field 100% Reference White pattern also.

100% luminance on the screen corresponds to a 10-bit luma signal of digital level 940 (235 @ 8-bit) , and the black level corresponds to a 10-bit luma signal of digital level 64.

100% luminance on the screen is defined as the luminance of a luma signal of digital level 940, but levels 941 through 1019 (254 @ 8-bit) should also be correctly displayed.

The highest value of 10-bit luma signal is digital level 1019. The luma level 1019 is called 'Super-White' or '109% White'.


There some cases where you can clip and not allow WTW, for example when you have an old Plasma which can't output 100 nits, (the Contrast slider @ Plasma control the light output), so you can clip for getting some more output (to reach 100 nits for example, so this will increase your contrast).

Other case is when you have an old projector or a projector with a reduced-output-from-usage lamp, and you can't reach for example 48 nits output, you can clip WTW to get some nits more, until you will get a new lamp.

These 2 examples are some tricks to get some more output from older devices.

Now modern displays can output at least 300-400 nits, and projector are bright enough to reach the peak output recommendations.

When you using your Contrast slider, if you reduce a lot more than its required, then you compress your signal, so you have to be careful.

The last bar have to slightly be flashing, it can happen for this to be visible when you will go close to your screen only, as its one 8-bit difference (background is 254 level, last flashing bar is 253), if you reduce a lot your contrast, it may be more visible the difference but this will compress your signal.

There another way to check your contrast setting if you have meter/software, to take measurements using 100-109% patterns, my calibration disk has such chapters to use with CalMAN for example (called Dynamic Range Clipping chapters) ot check your gamma also with changes of contrast values to the 100-109% levels.



If you have CalMAN see there.
Rolls-Royce likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off