100 nits SDR to Bright? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 11-18-2019, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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100 nits SDR to Bright?

Hello all,

I have a Sony A1E 65 inch TV in my dedicated treated room & am having issues with my calibrated night mode being to bright for me.

All my walls & ceiling are treated with black devore fabric due to this room also having a projector installed so it's totally pitch black.

I have a bias light installed but I still find the image to bright, I have calibrated the bias light to 5 nits & for SDR peak white is set at 100 nits.

I calibrated with CalMAN & and my i1 Pro profiling my i1 Display Pro

Any ideas or am I losing it
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post #2 of 22 Old 11-18-2019, 07:28 PM
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100 nits is the preferred reference but do not hesitate to go lower. Try 80 nits and see if that helps.
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post #3 of 22 Old 11-18-2019, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
100 nits is the preferred reference but do not hesitate to go lower. Try 80 nits and see if that helps.
I will give 80 nits a try thanks for the suggestion.

Would I need to recalibrate if I am happy at 80 nits or can I just lower the Brightness control on the A1E?
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post #4 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I will give 80 nits a try thanks for the suggestion.

Would I need to recalibrate if I am happy at 80 nits or can I just lower the Brightness control on the A1E?
Since you will measure with your meter to find out which will be the Brightness setting with 80 nits output, measure your grayscale and color gamut to find out what kind of deviations you have.

Have you used Peak Luminance of the Sony @ OFF?

The 100% White @ 80 nits will look more than a grey with OLED.
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post #5 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Since you will measure with your meter to find out which will be the Brightness setting with 80 nits output, measure your grayscale and color gamut to find out what kind of deviations you have.

Have you used Peak Luminance of the Sony @ OFF?

The 100% White @ 80 nits will look more than a grey with OLED.

Hello Ted,


I was just going to reduce the Brightness control down until I hit 80 nits hoping I will not have to adjust the Peak Luminance control from Low which is where I have it set now.


Not sure what OFF is Ted.
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post #6 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Hello Ted,

I was just going to reduce the Brightness control down until I hit 80 nits hoping I will not have to adjust the Peak Luminance control from Low which is where I have it set now.

Not sure what OFF is Ted.
The Peak Luminance control you have, its has selection to disable it (OFF position?)
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post #7 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The Peak Luminance control you have, its has selection to disable it (OFF position?)
Yes I can turn it to off but the Brightness control I guess would to be maxed out to hit 80 nits.

I was trying to get away with not having to go the whole way & start all over but I am sure adjusting the Brightness & Peak Luminance controls will effect the grayscale & color gamut.

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post #8 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 10:13 AM
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Yes I can turn it to off but the brightness control I guess would to be maxed out to hit 80 nits.
It will provide you better results if you disable it and set brightness at maximum position.

With Peak Luminance in any setting, it will add an processing which will distort more the REC.709 color gamut tracking.

Another day I will post an analysis for that, by comparing 10000 points verification between LOW and OFF to see the difference, its a detail can't be detected with classic measurements runs you perform with CalMAN using a very small in number patches... looking basic and simple 2D CIE charts only

LightSpace has tools to showcase volumetric issues like that one.
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post #9 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Hello all,

I have a Sony A1E 65 inch TV in my dedicated treated room & am having issues with my calibrated night mode being to bright for me.

All my walls & ceiling are treated with black devore fabric due to this room also having a projector installed so it's totally pitch black.

I have a bias light installed but I still find the image to bright, I have calibrated the bias light to 5 nits & for SDR peak white is set at 100 nits.

I calibrated with CalMAN & and my i1 Pro profiling my i1 Display Pro

Any ideas or am I losing it
Human sensitivity to eye strain and viewing fatigue in a dark video viewing environment can vary to some degree from one person to the next. I suggest you try a brighter bias light setting and/or lower the peak white luminance of the display when viewing programs on the TV. The SMPTE standards for reference viewing environment conditions are for video mastering applications where a unified methodology is desired, suitable for the majority of technicians. You may be a genuine exception to the average viewer.


Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
SMPTE, PVA, THX, ISF, Lion AV Consultants

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #10 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Hello all,

I have a Sony A1E 65 inch TV in my dedicated treated room & am having issues with my calibrated night mode being to bright for me.

All my walls & ceiling are treated with black devore fabric due to this room also having a projector installed so it's totally pitch black.

I have a bias light installed but I still find the image to bright, I have calibrated the bias light to 5 nits & for SDR peak white is set at 100 nits.

I calibrated with CalMAN & and my i1 Pro profiling my i1 Display Pro

Any ideas or am I losing it
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
100 nits is the preferred reference but do not hesitate to go lower. Try 80 nits and see if that helps.
You would hate my 300 nit calibration .
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post #11 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
It will provide you better results if you disable it and set brightness at maximum position.

With Peak Luminance in any setting, it will add an processing which will distort more the REC.709 color gamut tracking.

Another day I will post an analysis for that, by comparing 10000 points verification between LOW and OFF to see the difference, its a detail can't be detected with classic measurements runs you perform with CalMAN using a very small in number patches... looking basic and simple 2D CIE charts only

LightSpace has tools to showcase volumetric issues like that one.
That is very interesting Ted, I will be sure to do a calibration run with Peak Luminance set to off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post
Human sensitivity to eye strain and viewing fatigue in a dark video viewing environment can vary to some degree from one person to the next. I suggest you try a brighter bias light setting and/or lower the peak white luminance of the display when viewing programs on the TV. The SMPTE standards for reference viewing environment conditions are for video mastering applications where a unified methodology is desired, suitable for the majority of technicians. You may be a genuine exception to the average viewer.


Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
SMPTE, PVA, THX, ISF, Lion AV Consultants

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
Many thanks for the advice, I did try raising the brightness of the bias light but I still felt the TV was to bright. I will try reducing the peak white luminance next.

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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
You would hate my 300 nit calibration .
Yeah I think I would have no retinas left Is your room totally blacked out too?

With this fabric you really are looking into a black hole with very little reflected light from the walls, ceiling or floor & with no ambient light other than the bias light present.
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post #12 of 22 Old 11-19-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post

Yeah I think I would have no retinas left Is your room totally blacked out too?

With this fabric you really are looking into a black hole with very little reflected light from the walls, ceiling or floor & with no ambient light other than the bias light present.
Yes, it is fully dark. But every display and eyes do have different characteristics For reference I used to calibrate my previous display, a Sharp Elite, to 30 nits. I calibrate using many setting combinations to select the best looking one. And I do want a natural look.. It can be a bit overwhelming once in a while (as brightness can be in real life) but most of the times it looks quite natural and gorgeous and overall better than the 100 nit calibration.
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post #13 of 22 Old 11-20-2019, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
It will provide you better results if you disable it and set brightness at maximum position.

With Peak Luminance in any setting, it will add an processing which will distort more the REC.709 color gamut tracking.

Another day I will post an analysis for that, by comparing 10000 points verification between LOW and OFF to see the difference, its a detail can't be detected with classic measurements runs you perform with CalMAN using a very small in number patches... looking basic and simple 2D CIE charts only

LightSpace has tools to showcase volumetric issues like that one.
Ted are these worth buying?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...74CDFPFSB9FBCK

I read from one of your posts that from June 2015 all firmware & hardware is the same on OEM / custom OEM / Retail meters?

This is the label on my current i1Display.

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post #14 of 22 Old 11-20-2019, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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From what information I can find out it seems these "PLUS" meters are the same as the OEM meters?

So capable of reading up to 2000 nits & have something called " black current subtraction technology"

With my current TV I am not going to get anywhere near 2000 nits let alone the 1000 nit limit of my current i1Display.

I have no idea what this "black current subtraction technology" is or if it will benefit me?
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post #15 of 22 Old 11-20-2019, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Ted are these worth buying?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...74CDFPFSB9FBCK

I read from one of your posts that from June 2015 all firmware & hardware is the same on OEM / custom OEM / Retail meters?

This is the label on my current i1Display.
Hi Adam,

The i1Display PRO Plus retail has the same exact features as hardware with the i1Display PRO OEM (both are rated for 2000 nits).

The problem is that its unknown if or when i1Display PRO Plus will be supported from 3rd party software, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58832868

Your meter is a Retail 1000 nits model from 2018.
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post #16 of 22 Old 11-20-2019, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
From what information I can find out it seems these "PLUS" meters are the same as the OEM meters?

So capable of reading up to 2000 nits & have something called " black current subtraction technology"

With my current TV I am not going to get anywhere near 2000 nits let alone the 1000 nit limit of my current i1Display.

I have no idea what this "black current subtraction technology" is or if it will benefit me?
The ‘black current subtraction’ was a development idea that did not work out….

It has not been implemented to any i1Display PRO (Plus or normal)

Unfortunately, X-Rite marketing team was not been informed about this so they announced the info.

For that reason that 'black offset' entry offset exist to current OEM meters (and probably to retail also) but hasn't already used.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3090510-x-rite-announces-new-display-calibration-solutions-photographers-filmmakers.html#post58631572
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post #17 of 22 Old 11-20-2019, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The ‘black current subtraction’ was a development idea that did not work out….

It has not been implemented to any i1Display PRO (Plus or normal)

Unfortunately, X-Rite marketing team was not been informed about this so they announced the info.

For that reason that 'black offset' entry offset exist to current OEM meters (and probably to retail also) but hasn't already used.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58631572

So the only benefit is the ability to measure up to 2000 nits correct?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 11-20-2019 at 05:55 PM.
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post #18 of 22 Old 11-20-2019, 05:56 PM
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So the only benifit is the ability to measure up to 2000 nits correct?
From inside X-Rite i1Profiling is working only, not with any other software, so there no benefit at all, currently, as you can't operate the meter with calibration software.

When and if it will be supported, then it will be the 2000 nits capability only the difference from normal Retail i1Display PRO.

2000 nits rated is also the i1Display PRO OEM from January 2017, just the retail market didn't had 2000 nits version as the high-brightness PC monitors options were limited at past.
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
From inside X-Rite i1Profiling is working only, not with any other software, so there no benefit at all, currently, as you can't operate the meter with calibration software.

When and if it will be supported, then it will be the 2000 nits capability only the difference from normal Retail i1Display PRO.

2000 nits rated is also the i1Display PRO OEM from January 2017, just the retail market didn't had 2000 nits version as the high-brightness PC monitors options were limited at past.

I see, so these metera are not yet supported by the software but the OEM meters are?
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I see, so these metera are not yet supported by the software but the OEM meters are?
There no Plus OEM, it will never be released, as its the same as normal OEM as features.

The normal OEM is out from 2011, just from January 2017 all normal OEM's are 2000 nit rated.

All normal Retail of any year are 1000 nits rated.
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post #21 of 22 Old 11-25-2019, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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So I recalibrated to 80 nits with the Peak Luminance control set to off & whilst it is better in terms of eye strain I do tend to find in bright scenes it still a little to bright.

Like for example the commercials are on & a near full white screen in displayed.

I am running the bias light at 5 nits at the moment but do wonder if I should try it a little brighter.

Would you guys recommend going lower than 80 nits or is that a bad idea?

Should I give it a few weeks of watching at 80 nits to see if I get used to it?
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post #22 of 22 Old 11-25-2019, 08:16 PM
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I'm watching at 90 nits as well. Subjectively I find 100 nits too bright.

This discussion was held years back in one of the old home theatre geeks episodes. (Where a systems integrator calibrated different nits levels and also prefered lower than 100 nit ones for better immersion (less 'activation on part of the viewer))

Quote:
In film projection, it’s the projector without any film projecting onto the screen. With digital projectors, it’s a 100% white image. It’s interesting to note that the two are not identical. Film base attenuates the light through the projector, so a white film frame would measure lower, but digital projectors use no such film, so 100% is 100%. The target luminance is between 12 and 22 foot-lamberts (fl). The target is 16fl, but a group of surveyed viewers much preferring the 22fl screen brightness. Many movie houses are dimmer, around 7-10fl. Yes, it’s a cost thing. Xenon bulbs are expensive, and last longer if you don’t burn them as bright.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190130...-and-lamberts/

16fl are 54 nits
22fl are 75 nits

That said - especially on OLEDs with black crush - stick to around 85 or 90 (else darker areas get too grainy too often).


And just to make that clear, the calibration standard is dark room scenario at 100 nits (but with smaller screens probably.. ), so anything that differs from that is considered non standard. That said luminance (brightness portion of colors), impacts dE the least (hue and saturation impact it more).

So in my humble opionion, just turn brightness down (or just calibrate at lower brightness targets).

I've actively recommended to a friend not to go with a Philips with ambilight, which he wanted to use for bias lighting before - and recommended to him to just turn brightness down. 'Priming' your eyes with bias lighting in a dark room, so they can take brighter images overall to me always sounded a little heinous. (Outside grading suites.)
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Last edited by harlekin; 11-26-2019 at 01:49 AM.
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