2020 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Apple TV supports both.
It may support both, but doing a direct connect to the CX, it is Player-Led. I've verified this by using another ATV directly to my A9G and switching it between DV Bright and Dark. DV Dark looks identical to the CX while DV Bright is brighter than the CX.
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post #122 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jakob D. View Post
hi D-Nice could you please show scans of DCI and HDR color space measured? Has something changed compared to C9? if you load a Lut with LS on it will DCI / HDR still improve?
I have not done any of those scan yet due to me figuring out what is going on with DV. Visually, it looks the same as the C9. You don't load LS LUTs for DCI and HDR on the LGs. Only SDR Rec709.
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post #123 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 04:10 PM
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thanks for your feedback, regarding LS and HDR ok I understand! But what about a direct connection to TV and iPhone, everything sinks in black, I couldn't find anything about it in google!
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post #124 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Can you share your methodology for measuring grayscale on player led? There’s no such thing as absolute metadata in player led mode.
DV test patterns on a USB stick plugged into an Oppo 203. I've known about this for quite a while now and still surprised no one else has "figured this out". Verified the EOTF via my Murideo Six-G with it in Perceptual mode. It appears Perceptual on Murideo equals Player-Led while Absolute equals TV-Led. Here is what I measured via the Murideo in Perceptual mode (repost from yesterday) and USB via Oppo in Player-Led today.... looks super similar to me :

Murideo Six-G Perceptual Mode





Player-Led

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post #125 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Here is my LS 3DLUT verification report of ISF Expert Dark Room via CalMan. Working on doing a 1000 point verification via LS now.
nice result.

just to be clear this was a SDR cal via CM using the internal 3D LUT of the LG ?

what is the internal LUT size for BX/CX models ? same as previous 17^3/33^3 ?



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post #126 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
nice result.

just to be clear this was a SDR cal via CM using the internal 3D LUT of the LG ?
It’s a 3DLUT created with LS and then verified with CM.

Quote:
what is the internal LUT size for BX/CX models ? same as previous 17^3/33^3 ?



Thanks.
Yes, same as before.
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post #127 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jakob D. View Post
thanks for your feedback, regarding LS and HDR ok I understand! But what about a direct connection to TV and iPhone, everything sinks in black, I couldn't find anything about it in google!
would be glad if someone could confirm this bug to me!
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post #128 of 161 Old 03-26-2020, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
It’s a 3DLUT created with LS and then verified with CM.
Yes, same as before.
Thanks.

have not gotten my hands on a panel yet, anything change in the pre-cal panel set up ?

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post #129 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post
Thanks.

have not gotten my hands on a panel yet, anything change in the pre-cal panel set up ?
No change since the C9 series.
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post #130 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
So in theory LG's internal Apple TV app (or Netflix) would output a brighter DV image than Apple's Hardware?
Is this something you could test?
Actually, ATV 4K image is darker (eg. higher average gamma) also in 1080p/4K SDR. In 4K it also introduces near black flashing. @D-Nice would you mind checking if it's the same for you? I mean the SDR higher gamma and near black flashs. Thanks in advance.

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post #131 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Actually, ATV 4K image is darker (eg. higher average gamma) also in 1080p/4K SDR. In 4K it also introduces near black flashing. @D-Nice would you mind checking if it's the same for you? I mean the SDR higher gamma and near black flashs. Thanks in advance.
What content would you like me to check out?
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post #132 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 02:50 PM
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Ted’s patterns are enough, measuring a 10 points GS to check increased gamma issue and watching his 6 point near black in 4K/24 (especially 1-2%) to see the flashing and then in 1080p/24 to evaluate the difference. Please, let me know what you see. Thanks D.

Also ATV YCC output brings more errors compared to an eGreat A5 (or Oppo 203 I think) for example. I hope Apple will pay more attention to output quality in the next TV generation.

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post #133 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Found another issue with the CX series.....


The display tracks the EOTF (PQ) different depending on the DV signal type. If the signal says the TV should do the DV processing (aka TV-Led), the EOTF is tracked perfectly. However, if the signal says the source device is going to do the processing (aka Player-Led), it tracks the EOTF to the right.... meaning a darker image. I've confirmed the C9 series behaves the same way. So, there needs to be a firmware update that ensures regardless of DV signal type (Player-Led or TV-Led) the calibration is the same. I will do a write up of my findings and send it to Portrait and LG. Below are the EOTF scans in Cinema DV for Player-Led and TV-Led DV processing (looks pretty much the same as what I posted yesterday):

Player-Led





TV-Led

Do the Sony's have this problem? I'm in the US and it's pretty much LG or Sony for OLED.
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post #134 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 04:06 PM
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Do the Sony's have this problem? I'm in the US and it's pretty much LG or Sony for OLED.
Please visit the Sony threads for your question.
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post #135 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 06:33 PM
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Did calman home LG already support CX?
I dont see any software update.
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post #136 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 07:19 PM
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Did calman home LG already support CX?
I dont see any software update.
The current version will work just select the 2019 lg. You won’t be able to use the internal test pattern generator and you won’t be able to calibrate filmmaker picture mode until the next version. And for Dolby vision after calibration make sure your source device set to TVLed if it has that option. Apple TV and the oppo and Panasonic has players have this option.

Update: I've only been able to find this option on the Oppo. Users who have Apple TV confirmed there is no option but the device is supposed to use the EDID information from the TV and switch to the appropriate TV-Led or Player-Led mode.

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post #137 of 161 Old 03-27-2020, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by f16leon View Post
Did calman home LG already support CX?
I dont see any software update.
The current version will work just select the 2019 lg. You won’t be able to use the internal test pattern generator and you won’t be able to calibrate filmmaker picture mode until the next version. And for Dolby vision after calibration make sure your source device set to TVLed if it has that option. Apple TV and the oppo and Panasonic has players have this option.
Thanks.
I just want to try the new HDR10 TPG. So I have to wait update for calman home.
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post #138 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
The current version will work just select the 2019 lg. You won’t be able to use the internal test pattern generator and you won’t be able to calibrate filmmaker picture mode until the next version. And for Dolby vision after calibration make sure your source device set to TVLed if it has that option. Apple TV and the oppo and Panasonic has players have this option.
What setting is that in Apple TV?
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post #139 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 08:31 AM
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What setting is that in Apple TV?
I don't have an Apple TV but from what I understand there is an option to select either method.

I was looking in the Panasonic UB9000 manual and wasn't able to find a setting for DV Player-Led or TV-Led but I believe the EDID information works correctly so if the TV is capable of TV-Led the UB09000 uses that DV method. The Oppo has a setting under the Video/HDR menu.

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post #140 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 08:34 AM
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I don't have an Apple TV but from what I understand there is an option to select either.
I have Apple TV. I have never seen such an option.
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post #141 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 08:37 AM
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I have Apple TV. I have never seen such an option.
I'll let D-Nice or an Apple TV expert address this because as I said I don't have an Apple TV.

Whatever the answer is, as it relates to CM which is what the initial question was about, you can calibrate HDR and DV with the current version as long as you use an external test pattern generator. You will need to wait for the next release if you want to use the ITPG.

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post #142 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I'll let D-Nice or an Apple TV expert address this because as I said I don't have an Apple TV.

Whatever the answer is, as it relates to CM which is what the initial question was about, you can calibrate HDR and DV with the current version as long as you use an external test pattern generator. You will need to wait for the next release if you want to use the ITPG.
ATV 4K doesn't have an option. It is said that is supports both and I have no reason to doubt that. But if it does then it must act in the same way (EDID) as the DV compatible Panasonic UHD Blu Ray players.
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post #143 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 09:24 AM
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ATV 4K doesn't have an option. It is said that is supports both and I have no reason to doubt that. But if it does then it must act in the same way (EDID) as the DV compatible Panasonic UHD Blu Ray players.

Could the Dolby Vision TV led option have anything to do with the Match Dynamic Range setting? “Turn on to have Apple TV 4K match its output to the original dynamic range of content that you’re watching.”
Just a guess.


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post #144 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Could the Dolby Vision TV led option have anything to do with the Match Dynamic Range setting? “Turn on to have Apple TV 4K match its output to the original dynamic range of content that you’re watching.”
Just a guess.


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Match Range just switches between SDR/HDR/DV depending on the content. If your TV is DV compatible it will just auto switch to that. The main question is the option of TV vs Player Led DV and how it knows the difference and which version to use.

For example, Sony TV's use Player Led, but LG's can use both Player/TV Led. On the Panasonic UHD Blu Ray Player, it knows this from the EDID information and sends TV Led DV from a disk. I assume the ATV would do the same if it supports both.
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post #145 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
Match Range just switches between SDR/HDR/DV depending on the content. If your TV is DV compatible it will just auto switch to that. The main question is the option of TV vs Player Led DV and how it knows the difference and which version to use.

For example, Sony TV's use Player Led, but LG's can use both Player/TV Led. On the Panasonic UHD Blu Ray Player, it knows this from the EDID information and sends TV Led DV from a disk. I assume the ATV would do the same if it supports both.
It would be nice to experiment with this using a HDFury. But I can't see how to do it - there's only a single tickbox called "Dolby Vision", it really needs two tickboxes: one for TV-Led and one for Player-LED. I believe that the first DV-capable LG OLEDs are TV-Led-only, for example.

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post #146 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
Match Range just switches between SDR/HDR/DV depending on the content. If your TV is DV compatible it will just auto switch to that. The main question is the option of TV vs Player Led DV and how it knows the difference and which version to use.

For example, Sony TV's use Player Led, but LG's can use both Player/TV Led. On the Panasonic UHD Blu Ray Player, it knows this from the EDID information and sends TV Led DV from a disk. I assume the ATV would do the same if it supports both.

According to D-Nice LG’s internal apps, w/ DV on Apple TV and Netflix are brighter than Apple’s hardware. So it must be source led.


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post #147 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 11:26 AM
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It would be nice to experiment with this using a HDFury. But I can't see how to do it - there's only a single tickbox called "Dolby Vision", it really needs two tickboxes: one for TV-Led and one for Player-LED. I believe that the first DV-capable LG OLEDs are TV-Led-only, for example.
I'm honestly not sure if it could be.

To get DV from the HD Fury to the LG, the only way I know of is by using (bit accurate) Notebook HDMI output with CalMAN built in source pattern window which tunnels the DV metadata inside the 8bit RGB output. You then have to send Absolute Mode metadata to kick into DV, and can then switch between that and Relative for calibration purposes and that's it (at least in CalMAN Home).

One would assume that this is all TV-Led DV.

I guess the only way to compare Player vs TV Led DV is with a device that can force either with a specific option, such as a dedicated TPG (???) or a device with the option toggle (OPPO 203).

All other devices I know of use either TV-Led (early UHD BDP players, didn't work with Sony) Player-Led (some streaming devices) or both TV/Player-Led and use EDID to choose which to send.

Could be way off base, but that is my current understanding.

I still don't get this perceptual metadata though. I was always under the assumption that HDR (including DV) was Absolute? I've tried a quick search online a couple times but found nothing.

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post #148 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
According to D-Nice LG’s internal apps, w/ DV on Apple TV and Netflix are brighter than Apple’s hardware. So it must be source led.


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I agree, it definitely looks that way to me but we have been told it supports both and if it does it should choose TV-Led over Player-Led. As there is no option to choose one or the other, it has to rely on EDID information to choose one or the other. And then there's Profile 5 and Profile 7 thrown into the mix.

I still believe it is all an ATV (specifically Apple) issue. And that's not a hate on Apple. I have iPhone, iPad and other Apple devices and I'm happy with them all including the ATV 4K. It just sucks we're stuck with the dodgy DV implementation and 24fps problem.
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post #149 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I'm honestly not sure if it could be.

To get DV from the HD Fury to the LG, the only way I know of is by using (bit accurate) Notebook HDMI output with CalMAN built in source pattern window which tunnels the DV metadata inside the 8bit RGB output. You then have to send Absolute Mode metadata to kick into DV, and can then switch between that and Relative for calibration purposes and that's it (at least in CalMAN Home).

One would assume that this is all TV-Led DV.
Well yes but not really what I meant at all.

Quote:
I guess the only way to compare Player vs TV Led DV is with a device that can force either with a specific option, such as a dedicated TPG (???) or a device with the option toggle (OPPO 203).
All I meant, was routing the Apple box through the HDFury, but manipulating the EDID with the tick boxes in the UI. The sort of thing that Projector owners do to workaround EDID issues.

If the HDFury had the two tick boxes which it doesn't have, then you could change the TV's capabilities as read by the Apple box, to force the Apple box to send either:
* TV-led (RGB 8bit with the 1 or 2 DV 10 bit streams tunneled inside),
or
* Player-led (decoded by the Apple box into a single 12 bit DV stream)
...at will, by ticking different boxes.

Currently, LG 2018-2020 (at least) TVs support both.
Older LG TVs (I don't know which years) support only TV-led.
Sony TVs support only Player-led

I was only ever talking about changing the EDID presented to the source device using the HDFury. Nothing about Infoframes, or AVI frames, or metadata, at all.. All that stuff is untouched all the way from Apple box to TV (through HDFury). It's only changing the EDID of the TV .

Quote:
I still don't get this perceptual metadata though. I was always under the assumption that HDR (including DV) was Absolute? I've tried a quick search online a couple times but found nothing.
Agree, the very term "perceptual metadata" is alien to me . I know that the LG has its special "I'm in Dolby Vision mode but not with PQ" mode that is only possible during Calibration, but I always understood that to be controlled by Calman commands, or special "secret sauce" in the patterns - but not the "metadata" as you and I understand it - which only really specifies MaxCLL, MaxFLL etc.

But I wasn't talking about anything like that at all! I was only suggesting a way to make the Apple box choose either TV-led and Player-led modes at will, even if you have a TV which supports both types which would normally default to only one of those. This would allow you to could do an A/B comparison on your TV of some Apple-sourced Dolby Vision movies. I should have been a bit clearer earlier, sorry
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Last edited by mrtickleuk; 03-28-2020 at 12:16 PM.
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post #150 of 161 Old 03-28-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Well yes but not really what I meant at all.



All I meant, was routing the Apple box through the HDFury, but manipulating the EDID with the tick boxes in the UI. The sort of thing that Projector owners do to workaround EDID issues.

If the HDFury had the two tick boxes which it doesn't have, then you could change the TV's capabilities as read by the Apply box, to force the Apple box to send either:
TV-led (RGB 8bit with the 1 or 2 DV 10 bit streams tunneled inside),
or
Player-led (decoded by the Apple box into a single 12 bit DV stream)
...at will, by ticking different boxes.

Currently, LG 2018-2020 (at least) TVs support both.
Older LG TVs (I don't know which years) support only TV-led.
Sony TVs support only Player-led

I was only ever talking about changing the EDID presented to the source device using the HDFury. Nothing about Infoframes, or AVI frames, or metadata, at all.



Agree, the very term "perceptual metadata" is alien to me. I know that the LG has its special "I'm in Dolby Vision mode but not with PQ" mode, but I always understood that to be controlled by Calman commands, or special "secret sauce" in the patterns - but not the "metadata" which only specificies MaxCLL, MaxFLL etc.

But I wasn't talking about anything like that at all! I was only suggesting a way to make the Apple box choose either TV-led and Player-led modes at will, even if you have a TV which supports both types which would normally default to only one of those. This would allow you to could do an A/B comparison on your TV of some Apple-sourced Dolby Vision movies.
Ahhhhhhhhh, I see. Sorry I was on a completely different line of thought. But yes if that would be an awesome addition to the HD Fury if it were possible.

I also have a 2017 LG OLED, and I'm not even sure myself if it's supports both now I think about it. I have a feeling it is TV-Led only.

Anyway, better let this get back to the discussion of calibrating 2020 LG's before we get told off! lol
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