2020 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 303 Old 04-30-2020, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
If anybody is using Calman Home with a 2020 LG, I just wanted to let you know about the internal pattern generator.

The new LG internal pattern generator that can now be used to verify HDR calibrations, Is currently not enabled in the public TV firmware. It will be enabled in a future firmware update. So for now when you connect to the TV as a pattern generator, you should connect as 2019 TV instead of 2020 (for pattern generator only).

We have confirmed that the HDR internal pattern generator is working correctly on beta firmware, so the functionality is ready to go in Calman as soon as the TV firmware is released publicly.
Hey, just wondering if/when there will be youtube videos for LG OLED 2020 Calibration with CalMAN home. I found those walkthroughs super helpful and would love an updated one for the new TVs if there are any changes in the workflow!

Thank you,
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post #182 of 303 Old 05-21-2020, 08:59 AM
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post #183 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 05:59 AM
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I discovered on the 2020 LGs Dolby Vision Cinema Home PM is implemented differently than on any previous LG. The previous LGs in this PM never followed PQ because the intent was to make the picture brighter and this is the way it was implemented. On the 2020 LGs once calibrated, Cinema Home follows the PQ curve. At first i thought there was a bug but in talking to LG they say that's the way it's supposed to calibrate. So on the 2020 LGs, DV Cinema Home is the DV IQ PM and when in this PM the TV will adjust the brightness and tone mapping accordingly depending on the light sensor. DV Cinema follows PQ but with out the dynamic adjustments. Although Peak Brightness is the same in both PMs, in DV IQ in a bright room you can see how it changes the tone mapping so you can see more near black detail that would otherwise not be visible. It works pretty well in my opinion.
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post #184 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 06:11 AM
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IQ mode makes me smile...
It totally breaks the concept of PQ, and makes is more of a 'relative' standard, and not the 'absolute' standard PQ really is.

We actually told Dolby a long time back that PQ being an 'absolute' standard would be a problem for home viewing.
Nice to be proven right

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post #185 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
IQ mode makes me smile...
It totally breaks the concept of PQ, and makes is more of a 'relative' standard, and not the 'absolute' standard PQ really is.

We actually told Dolby a long time back that PQ being an 'absolute' standard would be a problem for home viewing.
Nice to be proven right

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post #186 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 07:01 AM
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It reality, as home TVs increase in luma output, there will be no need for any HDR metadata... as the moment the TV matches the peak luma of the mastering display, there is no need for roll-off, dynamic or not.

But, IQ would likely be need for normal home use (as in TV users without 'home cinema' setup, as the surrounding environment will likely be too bright - which is wat IQ attempts to overcome.

But, I have yet to see a TV with a light sensor that works!

Steve
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post #187 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
It reality, as home TVs increase in luma output, there will be no need for any HDR metadata... as the moment the TV matches the peak luma of the mastering display, there is no need for roll-off, dynamic or not.

But, IQ would likely be need for normal home use (as in TV users without 'home cinema' setup, as the surrounding environment will likely be too bright - which is wat IQ attempts to overcome.

But, I have yet to see a TV with a light sensor that works!

Steve
Of course it's not reference but it does make some darker content viewable where as without it you couldn't possibly watch it in a fairly bright room.

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post #188 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Of course it's not reference but it does make some darker content viewable where as without it you couldn't possibly watch it in a fairly bright room.
For a brightly lit room, you will get a far superior image by using a high brightness SDR mode.
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post #189 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
For a brightly lit room, you will get a far superior image by using a high brightness SDR mode.
I'm not defending the PM, just reporting what i see.

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post #190 of 303 Old 05-22-2020, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
It reality, as home TVs increase in luma output, there will be no need for any HDR metadata... as the moment the TV matches the peak luma of the mastering display, there is no need for roll-off, dynamic or not.



But, IQ would likely be need for normal home use (as in TV users without 'home cinema' setup, as the surrounding environment will likely be too bright - which is wat IQ attempts to overcome.



But, I have yet to see a TV with a light sensor that works!



Steve
So home displays are already matching pro monitors black level, which I understand is 0.005 nits without using over aggressive local dimming. I read that black level is tone mapped as well as luma.

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post #191 of 303 Old 05-23-2020, 12:14 AM
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So home displays are already matching pro monitors black level, which I understand is 0.005 nits without using over aggressive local dimming. I read that black level is tone mapped as well as luma.
While true that the specification tone maps black, few home TVs do, as it causes shadow detail clipping, when black in the home TV is in any way higher than the grading display.
Yet another failure of the PQ standard's 'Absolute' nature...

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post #192 of 303 Old 05-23-2020, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
While true that the specification tone maps black, few home TVs do, as it causes shadow detail clipping, when black in the home TV is in any way higher than the grading display.

Yet another failure of the PQ standard's 'Absolute' nature...



Steve
Is that just poor tone mapping compared to what Dolby has developed for Dolby Vision. I never see any issues, unless its HDR10 which has more to do with Vizio tone mapping algorithm and the display peak nits.

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post #193 of 303 Old 05-23-2020, 01:15 AM
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Is that just poor tone mapping compared to what Dolby has developed for Dolby Vision. I never see any issues, unless its HDR10 which has more to do with Vizio tone mapping algorithm and the display peak nits.
Can't see that it is, as 'any' tone mapping will compress/crush the blacks/shadows...
Especially, as it's not a 'dynamic' component of DV in itself.
But the problem is, you just don't know how different TVs are responding to any PQ signal, as they are all using their own secret sauce - DV included.

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post #194 of 303 Old 05-23-2020, 05:49 AM
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Update on the autocal issue. Tyler reached out to me to confirm my findings that LG was able to reproduce. SDR auto-calibration(at least for my model. lg-oled65cxpua/FW:03.00.60) is not viable for now. The good news though is HDR-10 and DV auto-calibration worked flawlessly. I verified my results with mascior test patterns.

Tyler says more information will come after the holiday weekend.

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post #195 of 303 Old 05-23-2020, 07:37 PM
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I downloaded and installed the Calman Home 2020 beta software. I was able to use it to calibrate my 2020 CX 77 in SDR, HDR, and DV modes. I don't have any crushed black issue in SDR on my display. In HDR and DV, my workflow differed from the 2019 workflow videos for some reason, as I never got the step to measure the peak panel luminance and upload a custom tone map curve. Is this normal behavior in Calman Home 2020, or is this a limitation imposed by current firmware version on the TV?
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post #196 of 303 Old 05-23-2020, 09:08 PM
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I never got the step to measure the peak panel luminance and upload a custom tone map curve.
I'm a little confused by what you are trying to say here. Are you saying the software skips this step or the TV doesn't allow you to? Or are you saying something else entirely?
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post #197 of 303 Old 05-24-2020, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Update on the autocal issue. Tyler reached out to me to confirm my findings that LG was able to reproduce. SDR auto-calibration(at least for my model. lg-oled65cxpua/FW:03.00.60) is not viable for now. The good news though is HDR-10 and DV auto-calibration worked flawlessly. I verified my results with mascior test patterns.

Tyler says more information will come after the holiday weekend.
I hope Tyler figures out what's going on with your calibration but last night i spent time trying to look for raised blacks on my calibrated 55CX in SDR, HDR and DV and i just can't see any. I then used Stacy's disks to see if i could find some but all i see are perfect blacks. After calibrating six of these sets so far, i did have one set that was crushing black even after a pixel refresh. It had abnormal tinting so it went back to LG. I know you only see this when replacing the 1DLUT but i'm wondering if the calibration from the factory is raising blacks so they look fine on your set then when you calibrate they crush. Did you try to calibrate the gray scale manually and see if you get any crush? That would be the test to do. If your set is crushing, you can probably get a replacement.

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post #198 of 303 Old 05-24-2020, 06:38 AM
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I downloaded and installed the Calman Home 2020 beta software. I was able to use it to calibrate my 2020 CX 77 in SDR, HDR, and DV modes. I don't have any crushed black issue in SDR on my display. In HDR and DV, my workflow differed from the 2019 workflow videos for some reason, as I never got the step to measure the peak panel luminance and upload a custom tone map curve. Is this normal behavior in Calman Home 2020, or is this a limitation imposed by current firmware version on the TV?
If you didn't see the CM tone map layout appear, you will only see this in HDR, you don't have the correct TV year selected when you connect to the display. There is a pull down menu where you need to select the 2020 LG.
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post #199 of 303 Old 05-24-2020, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I hope Tyler figures out what's going on with your calibration but last night i spent time trying to look for raised blacks on my calibrated 55CX in SDR, HDR and DV and i just can't see any. I then used Stacy's disks to see if i could find some but all i see are perfect blacks. After calibrating six of these sets so far, i did have one set that was crushing black even after a pixel refresh. It had abnormal tinting so it went back to LG. I know you only see this when replacing the 1DLUT but i'm wondering if the calibration from the factory is raising blacks so they look fine on your set then when you calibrate they crush. Did you try to calibrate the gray scale manually and see if you get any crush? That would be the test to do. If your set is crushing, you can probably get a replacement.
I posted more info about my experience in the Calman thread that basically answers this. By default without any calibration the TV does not crush blacks, so a manual calibration would work, but I would be missing out on the benefits of a 3D Lut. I already tested this on an uncalibrated default ISF picture mode. Seeing as how LG was able to reproduce it and PD knows about it, I will wait to see what can be done. I still have plenty of time to have it replaced if necessary.
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post #200 of 303 Old 05-24-2020, 06:56 AM
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I posted more info about my experience in the Calman thread that basically answers this. By default without any calibration the TV does not crush blacks, so a manual calibration would work, but I would be missing out on the benefits of a 3D Lut. I already tested this on an uncalibrated default ISF picture mode. Seeing as how LG was able to reproduce it and PD knows about it, I will wait to see what can be done. I still have plenty of time to have it replaced if necessary.
Agreed but just to be clear, you need to take ISF bright or Filmmaker PM and set the user controls exactly as you have the calibrated PM you did with CM. Then using CM, do a 21 pt manual gray scale calibration. No DDC reset or new 3DLUT. Then switch between the PMs and see if you see the raised blacks with the manual calibration. If you do then it's the set. If not, then it has to do with the 1DLUT. I'm sure you will figure this out so i wouldn't worry. The 2020 LGs are fairly consistent so even if you needed to get a replacement i'm sure you have a good chance of getting a good panel.
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post #201 of 303 Old 05-24-2020, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I hope Tyler figures out what's going on with your calibration but last night i spent time trying to look for raised blacks on my calibrated 55CX in SDR, HDR and DV and i just can't see any. I then used Stacy's disks to see if i could find some but all i see are perfect blacks. After calibrating six of these sets so far, i did have one set that was crushing black even after a pixel refresh. It had abnormal tinting so it went back to LG. I know you only see this when replacing the 1DLUT but i'm wondering if the calibration from the factory is raising blacks so they look fine on your set then when you calibrate they crush. Did you try to calibrate the gray scale manually and see if you get any crush? That would be the test to do. If your set is crushing, you can probably get a replacement.
What is ABNORMAL tinting? Do you check it with a 15% pattern or a 80% pattern?

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post #202 of 303 Old 05-24-2020, 11:13 AM
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If you didn't see the CM tone map layout appear, you will only see this in HDR, you don't have the correct TV year selected when you connect to the display. There is a pull down menu where you need to select the 2020 LG.
I am sure I had the correct TV year selected. I did the SDR mode calibration first, where I know when I first connected to the TV and selected 2020 model. I did the HDR modes next without having to reconnect to the TV afterwards. I will double check if it defaulted to 2019 TV during the next calibration session, but I highly doubt that. I will try again later tonight to see if something was glitched on my end.
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post #203 of 303 Old 05-24-2020, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rajendra82 View Post
I am sure I had the correct TV year selected. I did the SDR mode calibration first, where I know when I first connected to the TV and selected 2020 model. I did the HDR modes next without having to reconnect to the TV afterwards. I will double check if it defaulted to 2019 TV during the next calibration session, but I highly doubt that. I will try again later tonight to see if something was glitched on my end.
It's possible it's a bug (selected 2020 but got something else), but it's also possible you selected the wrong model by mistake (design flaw). Calman keep forgetting which model LG you own - every time you go out of the menu, the next time you go in - BANG, you're back to the full list with the top one selected, and your previous selection deleted. Try it. Change from LG to Sony or something else, and then back to LG, and you'll see the problem. Your TV will be forgotten, and when you select your correct model TV, the IP address will be wiped too.

I've been asking for Calman to remember which model TV you have to selected as a default, which pattern gen you have to select as a default, which IP addresses you use for TV and PGen to pre-populate as defaults (very basic things, really, which would make a big improvement) for a very long time now. This would be new code that would have to be added because currently, there's no code to do this, it just dumps you at the top of the list.

Time and time again people are being caught out when it resets these things, should you accidentally go up a level in the menus. And there's no excuse IMHO for it wiping away IP addresses and forgetting them all the time if you run calman with a device not connected for any reason. I think it's very hostile to the user.
(Before anyone jumps on this, yes of course I've submitted these requests properly via the feedback forms each time, my mentioning them here is also a repeat of the correct feedback process).

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post #204 of 303 Old 05-25-2020, 06:13 AM
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Another observation on this set. Over the past couple of years most of my pro calibrator colleagues tell me they always did at least one pixel refresh before calibration to make sure the set comes out of black properly. On past LGs, i've noticed very slight if any improvement doing this BUT on the 2020 LGs, i've seen significant improvement on some sets where if i calibrated before the pixel refresh then the customer did one after, or the set eventually changed with the 4hr compensations, it would effect the calibration. In addition, on most of the sets where i did a pixel refresh during the break in period, it increased the peak brightness of the set. The amount of increase varied from 50-75 nits peak in HDR. I've never seen this before but i was able to reproduce these observations on at least 5 out of the 6 LGs i've calibrated and tested so far. It's contrary to what we normally would expect. Maybe the increased brightness made the blacks better? or maybe a combination of the changes? Maybe LG modified their pixel refresh algorithm?

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post #205 of 303 Old 05-25-2020, 07:30 PM
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Calibrated SDR, HDR, and DV on my LG CX 77 yesterday with the Calman Home 2020 beta. In SDR I used rolling method to do a 26 point 1-D LUT and did 9 point fixed grid method for the 3D LUT. Tried lightning LUT first, but the results were not as good as these for iSF bright or dark mode. I used the Judd modified white point and the FSI EDR, and other than peak brightness the look is quite similar to filmmaker mode, which I left untouched for comparison. I am pretty happy. I wish I could check the pre- vs post-calibration accuracy for HDR or DV patterns generated internally, but can't until LG updates the firmware to enable validation. The results there look pretty good to me in content too. My peak panel brightness measured at 710 nits, so updated my PQ curve for that.
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post #206 of 303 Old 05-25-2020, 07:42 PM
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Calibrated SDR, HDR, and DV on my LG CX 77 yesterday with the Calman Home 2020 beta. In SDR I used rolling method to do a 26 point 1-D LUT and did 9 point fixed grid method for the 3D LUT. Tried lightning LUT first, but the results were not as good as these for iSF bright or dark mode. I used the Judd modified white point and the FSI EDR, and other than panel brightness the look is quite similar to filmmaker mode, which I left untouched for comparison. I am pretty happy. I wish I could check the pre- vs post-calibration check for HDR or DV, but can't until LG updates the firmware to enable this. The results there look pretty good to me in content too. My peak panel brightness measured at 710 nits, so updated my PQ curve for that.
Did you verify contrast and brightness were correct before and after calibration?
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post #207 of 303 Old 05-25-2020, 08:47 PM
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Did you verify contrast and brightness were correct before and after calibration?
I didn't touch either setting or look pre-calibration at any test patterns. Post-calibration my brightness and contrast levels look good to me at their default values based on the clipping test patterns I have looked at. I can clearly see that 2% above black level not crushed. 1% above black is debatable, but my eyes are not that sensitive. For white clipping I can see all the bars flashing up to 253 on the test pattern so no above white clipping.
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post #208 of 303 Old 05-25-2020, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rajendra82 View Post
I didn't touch either setting or look pre-calibration at any test patterns. Post-calibration my brightness and contrast levels look good to me at their default values based on the clipping test patterns I have looked at. I can clearly see that 2% above black level not crushed. 1% above black is debatable, but my eyes are not that sensitive. For white clipping I can see all the bars flashing up to 253 on the test pattern so no above white clipping.
No elevated blacks, especially in HDR? Need a complete dark room to see any elevated blacks.
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post #209 of 303 Old 05-26-2020, 05:15 AM
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What is ABNORMAL tinting? Do you check it with a 15% pattern or a 80% pattern?

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If you have it you will see it with content. Generally you will see a slight magenta tint with full white or snow scenes in the upper right or lower left side of the panel generally. If its very faint that's normal but if it jumps out at you then that's abnormal.

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post #210 of 303 Old 05-26-2020, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrfabio View Post
No elevated blacks, especially in HDR? Need a complete dark room to see any elevated blacks.
My room is dark enough at night that when the TV is showing a full video black slide I can't see it. I don't mean just the screen glowing, I mean there is a black void where a TV used to sit. When I put up a HDR black level pattern, the blacks look black too. I can see the levels above black to be different from black. I haven't bought a jeweler's loupe and looked at black through it, but not sure I need/want to.

Edit: Ordered a jeweler's loupe off Amazon to satisfy myself. Will let you know tomorrow if there is any visible glow on black in HDR test patterns.
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Last edited by rajendra82; 05-26-2020 at 06:03 AM.
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