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post #1 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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2 Lightspace questions

Good evening,
I've been reading and learning a lot on calibration (though there is a lot to learn)! I am using lightspace ZRO and a colormunki on a samsung qled tv (yes I know not the best but I am just trying to learn at this point) So I have two questions i'm hoping someone can give insight on.

First, when calibrating Peak White, why do the CMS articles say to set the backlight so that you get about 100nits on white 255/255/255? I had to lower the backlight down to 7 (50 is max) on the tv to accomplish this, which is SUPER dim.

Second, I have everything turned off/disabled on the tv with gamma set to 2.2, in lightspace I have the colour standard target as sRGB (basically rec709 with 2.2 gamma). However when I try to set the grey scale (i'm starting at 100% 255/255/255) red is super low and even if I push red all the way up on the tv (using 100% on a 20 point scale) it doesn't fix it... however I can see the white on the screen turning red. So there has to be something configuration wise in lightspace that I didn't configure correctly but i'm not sure what...

Thank you for your time and help.
Ken
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 09:51 PM
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Everything you described screams meter broken..

What colormunki do you use? Photo/Design or Display?

If you use a Colormunki Display, understand, that it is a colorimeter, and that it needs a spectral correction for your QLED display first. (Otherwise it doesnt understand the display tech. (QLED isnt 'just another LCD, so you cant use the LCD profile when calibrating.))) It doesnt come with one either...

Backlight levels that low still arent (?) explained away by this though.. (edit: On second thought, maybe they are.. )
(100 IRE white at 100 nits is the SDR standard, but this doesnt correspond with display light levels of 7/100 - as in, never does - something else is wrong here.. )

What are you using as a pattern source. (Are you supplying rec709 (= SDR) patterns? Your TV is not in a HDR mode while calibrating, I take it?)
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post #3 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 10:09 PM
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If you are using a Colormunki Display, and need a spectral correction file (does lightspace offer a QLED profile for your meter?), as in still not have one - your best bet is going with HCFR instead.

(Also read: https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/...t30024008.html)

And trying to find a QLED spectral correction. (.ccss file).
-

After writing this i googled for 15 minutes, didnt find one, but found a matrix correction you might be able to use: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56186026

(HCFR does support using it with the colormunki, dont know if lightspace zero does.)

A spectral correction file (.ccss for HCFR) would me 'more ideal', since matrix corrections usually are only to be used for 'those two meters' you made them with. Because you are compounding margins of error. (That might be there or not)

In your case though, anything is better - than not having a spectral correction file at all to work with. (If you are working with a Colormunki Display.)

Also if you have a Colormunki Display (or Photo), learning with HCFR (which supports it), isnt a bad way to go. I guess with Lightspace zero you'll hit 'only supported by payed version' limitations pretty soon (can you apply a matrix correction? ). Which for learning, isnt ideal..
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 10:16 PM
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Aaaaand I found a QF7N (QLED) .ccss as well.

https://colorimetercorrections.displ...l%20Gamut.ccss

(made with a Colormunki Photo, so not the best, but eh...)

Use that profile with HCFR (drop it into the right folder, restart, then select it as your meter profile).

Also set up the matrix correction above as a correction profile (while using the generic non refresh profile in HCFR) in another window/on another run (meter settings, second tab) and compare if they roughly measure the same (on a 10(/11) point greyscale measurement run).


All of that only if you are using a Colormunki Display

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post #5 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 10:23 PM
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Also read this: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sa...-qled/settings

Just so you get a feeling for 'correct ballpark settings'. Or look up the settings page on rtings for your QLED model. rtings suggests, that a backlight of "ballpark" 18 is correct for Samsung SDR calibrations (100 nits target for 100 IRE (255 255 255) white).

Also check if your source device is outputting limited or full RGB (/YCbCr), and if your TV is set to correctly expect a limited or full signal. (This still doesnt explain away the low backlight setting though. ).

When you respond, give details on all that stuff.


edit: Also name your TV model. (QLED might not be QLED in terms of spectral profile either - but then again, anything is better than not having a QLED spectral correction active at all, while working with a colorimeter. That is just so we can tell you, that your QLED corrections still might be wrong (because they were made for a Q7FN). Half jokingly, but then also entirely not jokingly at all.. )

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post #6 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies, it will take me a bit to go through the links.

It is a colormunki display.
The reason I initially went with light space is because it has that really great “dummies” guide 😆 and it seemed simpler from things I read on this forum vs hcfr.
I do not have any correction file, so that probably has something to do with it!
The tv is definitely in SDR and not HDR.
I’ll have to also look at the HDMI output of the laptop...
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post #7 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Tv is a qn85q70rafxza
I initially set it up with the Rtings settings.
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post #8 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 10:42 PM
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To learn to work with HCFR, read this:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...e-help-me.html

Minus the driver stuff (not needed for a Colormunki Display).
.

What you are running into most likely is, that the spectral profile of a normal LCD (LCD profile you used in lightspace zro?) looks like this:



While that for a QLED looks like this:


(bottom right, so after filters)

Your colorimeter cant differentiate, and first needs a correction profile made with a spectrophotometer (much more expensive.. ) (.ccss or matrix correction).
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Gotcha thanks. I’ll read that link.
So if I had a i1 display pro I would still need a correction file for the qled correct?
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post #10 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 11:06 PM
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Yes. The i1Display Pro and the Colormunki Display are essentially the same meter, with the Colormunki Display being more limited in terms of read speeds (slower).

Thats why I also linked to that matrix correction for the i1 Display Pro. (Applicable with an error margin (inter unit variability ) of about +/- dE 2000 of 2. (This is where you try both the .ccss correction file, and the matrix correction on your screen and hope that they roughly match - so you have confidence, that your correction files are roughly correcting the same.))

Also, any colorimeter needs a correction file(/profile). Always.


A .ccss file is basically the spectral graph you see above (but the actual one, not a schematic (as in the second image)) in a spreadsheet format.

HCFR (or any other suitable software (but lightspace doesnt support the .ccss format, afair (might be wrong)), can calculate a correction out of that (by matching the default meter curve to the .ccss one).

A matrix correction is a 3x3 values correction of the meter on 100% white, red, green and blue. So "meter (spectrophotometer) to meter (colorimeter)". Its usually more accurate (if you do it for the same meter at hand), but also more prone to compounding errors (if you share it between different meters (online from a buddy), because of f.e. inter meter variability (same meter brand and model, slight measuring differences)).

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post #11 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 11:44 PM
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Anecdotal reference for sharing profiles between meters and displays.



Leo1 is another persons matrix correction (different meters, but also for a i1Display Pro) on the same type of TV on my Oled using my i1 Display Pro, as baseline.

Leo 2 is the same but matrix created with a different i1 pro 2 spectroradiometer.

Colormunki Photo matrix is my Colormunki Photo (spectroradiometer (!)) on my TV correcting my i1 Display Pro.

Zoyd B7 is zoyds default OLED correction .ccss - created on a Jeti Spectrobos - he implemented in HCFR on a newer (slightly different spectral profile) LG OLED than mine (moved over to calman as a matrix correction for my meter - thats why matrix is in the title).

Leo 3 is a Jeti Spectrobos matrix correction sourced from another person (different meters, but also for a i1Display Pro) on the same type of TV - applied to the i1 Display pro on my Oled.

Subjectively Leo 3 is the most accurate one (critical viewing, compairing to other calibrated displays (different display tech (LCDs)).

So that is the "good case" scenario of variability you should run into, sourcing spectral corrections from others on the internet.

(Beats buying more expensive spectroradiometers, though.. )

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post #12 of 27 Old 01-31-2020, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Makes sense. Yeh i'm not looking for perfect at this point, just better. And learning how things work

I'm going to try switching over to HCFR at this point.

So completely off topic this tv has both a 2 point and 20 point white balance. In looking at the Rtings settings they have both the 2 point and 20 point scales adjusted. I would have thought you would only adjust one or the other, so that kind of confuses me.
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post #13 of 27 Old 02-01-2020, 01:23 AM
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You conventionally adjust both (rough adjustments with 2 point, and fine adjustments with 20 point).

Also - was bored, so I also plotted the content of the .ccss file I linked to:


And here a normal (SDR gammut) LCD (Macbook Air 2019) in comparison:


So yes, the .ccss file linked indeed is for a QLED.

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post #14 of 27 Old 02-01-2020, 02:03 AM
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And here is another bit of bad news - color volume between the

q7fn
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sa...-q7f-qled-2018

and the

q70
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/q70-q70r-qled

actually changed, which means, that spectral characteristics (graphs) of the panel changed as well, which means, that the correction profiles provided might, or might not be applicable.

If they are, we don't know. More specifically, we dont know the added error margin. Usually the correction profiles should still somewhat apply - but we have reason to believe, that they are not accurately representing the screen you are calibrating at this point.

Try it anyway (with both corrections), see how much the results differ from what rtings suggested - and see how you like the result.

You also can still use it for learning how to calibrate. (Error profile shouldnt me near as high as in your first case where brightness was underreported by probably more than 50% )

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post #15 of 27 Old 02-01-2020, 03:42 AM
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I would ignore what has been said here, and not wast your time chasing something that is irrelevant.
No EDR preset (or any other offset/matching) would cause the issues you have reported.
At most, they make small degrees of change to the measured values - not orders of magnitude.

You look to have a much more fundamental issue going on.
(But not at all sure what!)

And 100 nits is used as the industry standard for grading displays in 'dark' environments.
For home use 200 nits, or more, is totally acceptable.

See: https://www.lightillusion.com/viewing_environments.html

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post #16 of 27 Old 02-01-2020, 05:51 AM
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I would not ignore any of the things said in here, because they are all correct and ultimately necessary.

As Steve said, and I've written (allthough with doubt where he used certainty) - even the lack of a proper correction profile probably would not explain the difference in brightness (luminance) in your readings, that you are experiencing.

Part of that was also my reasoning to move you over to HCFR - to see if that (with another set of readings) changes anything.

Or go with Steves recommendation of - I would ignore whats said in here and just give up. Dont know what you are doing wrong. But its more substantial.

What patterns are you using. Because according to Steve we are talking big, dumb mistakes now. And he obviously doesnt think that they come from the Colormunki integration in Lightspace..

edit:
If or that you can use 200 nits for bright room viewing (with untold impact on percieved color accuracy (do you then use gamma 1.8 for that? (I think also optional according to spec.) ), doesnt help you in any way. Also steve is ignoring, that you are seeing a red tint, while the meter is still underreporting red saturation. (Maybe rightly so - we dont know if this is your eyes not having adopted, or if the image really looks red in your case - in which case, no correction profile would be the most likely cause for that.)

Also - rude.

Also, let me stress this as well, I think its unforgivable to have people learn how to calibrate on Lightspace zro, which is a time limited license to ultimately a very expensive and non standard calibration solution.

Give a man a fish, and then take it away from him and force him to pay 1000 US if he wants to eat again, business model.

Dont support that.

(Lightspace is a great program and calibration solution on the professional level regardless.)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
...Lightspace zro, which is a time limited license...
Again, totally wrong!

Steve

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post #18 of 27 Old 02-01-2020, 06:25 AM
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Oh so sorry - so

Quote:
Note: When the free ZRO license expires a new license will need to be requested via the downloads page.
src: https://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_zro.html

refers to you nagging the user to visit the website again for unlimited, but timed free throw away licenses then?

So sorry - how inconsiderate from me.

Let me double down then:
NEVER go with Lightspace, when still learning how to calibrate.



Only ever buy it for its LUT creation and comparison functionality.

In all other cases you are better of with the free ond open source solution (HCFR), or the more standard (wider used) Calman. Both will open you up to more support, while still learning.

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post #19 of 27 Old 02-01-2020, 06:46 AM
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Let me take one thing back, based on a hypothetical.

If Lightspace includes a QLED spectral correction profile (for the most common meters, and even though one would hardly be enough, looking at the amount of gamut changes Samsung went through in only two years), while none of the other solutions does.

Then starting with Lightspace would be something I could understand. Again, its a good software solution. Just the payment options are atrocious. (Comparable to other payment models in the industry though.)
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With all due respect, it comes across as if you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to LightSpace. I ran the free LightSpace ZRO for a while before upgrading initially to HTL, and then to HTP (through my own choice for LUT generation, not through any nagging by anyone), and during the time I used it, never once did the license expire. While it does state on the website that the free license can expire, if/when it does, it is a simple 2 minute minor inconvenience to request a new license which you would receive within seconds!!!

On top of that, your statement about HCFR and CalMAN opening up to more support is laughable. LightSpace has one of the best calibration software support networks out there IMO. Both directly through official channels, and among enthusiasts here in these very forums!!

If you want to promote the use of HCFR, then by all means, do so. But that does not mean you have to do it by spreading misinformation.

With regards to the OP, any number of things could be the cause of your issue, but as the only thing I see relating to how your patterns are possibly generated is the phrase "I’ll have to also look at the HDMI output of the laptop", my initial guess would be a total misconfiguration of your GPU output, probably coupled with an incorrectly configured patch scale within LightSpace probe options. Either that, or your probe is totally borked!!!

Again, to the OP, you'd be best served trying first to verify your probe is not faulty, then move to verify your patch generation method is correctly configured. Once you have done this, if you are still having issues and you plan on staying with LightSpace (of any license level), post in one of the LightSpace threads for advice and assistance from users who actually know how the software works, or seek assistance directly through Light Illusions own forums.
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post #21 of 27 Old 02-01-2020, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I appreciate everyone’s comments. All of you have more knowledge about this than I do.

The reason I didn’t contact LightSpace support was I’m using ZRO and it didn’t seem right to bug them since I’m using a free product.

I guess Im a bit confused on the whole calibration file/filter thing... I was under the impression from initial reading I just needed a probe like i1 or such and LightSpace or hcfr. But it seems like unless you can find the calibration file for your specific tv (in my case a q70 qled) you cant really calibrate it?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
I would ignore what has been said here, and not wast your time chasing something that is irrelevant.
No EDR preset (or any other offset/matching) would cause the issues you have reported.
At most, they make small degrees of change to the measured values - not orders of magnitude.

You look to have a much more fundamental issue going on.
(But not at all sure what!)

And 100 nits is used as the industry standard for grading displays in 'dark' environments.
For home use 200 nits, or more, is totally acceptable.

See: https://www.lightillusion.com/viewing_environments.html

Steve
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply. So to verify for me to actually calibrate this qled tv I have I would need not only a probe like a colormunki/i1 display pro and lightspace, but also a spectrophotometer?

Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentash View Post
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply. So to verify for me to actually calibrate this qled tv I have I would need not only a probe like a colormunki/i1 display pro and lightspace, but also a spectrophotometer?

Thanks
You don't need a Spectro at all. Many users here calibrate their TV's without one. Of course, if you have or have access to one, then it will improve accuracy as you can measure W R G B and create a matrix to apply to your colorimeter to make it as accurate as the Spectro (basic explanation).

Without a Spectro or a spectral correction file, you just use the probe in its normal state, and it won't be as accurate as a corrected probe with regards to colour and luminance and things like skin tones and other "memory colours" may seem a bit over/under saturated. But for the most part, differences are going to be marginal. Certainly not the large differences you say you are getting.

Some of the other information provided can possibly be seen as useful the further you get into calibration, but it has no relevance to your initial question. You still have not provided any information on your patch generation source and/or what settings you used within LightSpace and until you do it is highly unlikely anyone can advise you further. My gut feeling is still that you have either a misconfigured GPU output (if as I guess you are using your laptop) or misconfigured LightSpace settings, or both.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentash View Post
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply. So to verify for me to actually calibrate this qled tv I have I would need not only a probe like a colormunki/i1 display pro and lightspace, but also a spectrophotometer?

Thanks
You don't need a Spectro at all. Many users here calibrate their TV's without one. Of course, if you have or have access to one, then it will improve accuracy as you can measure W R G B and create a matrix to apply to your colorimeter to make it as accurate as the Spectro (basic explanation).

Without a Spectro or a spectral correction file, you just use the probe in its normal state, and it won't be as accurate as a corrected probe with regards to colour and luminance and things like skin tones and other "memory colours" may seem a bit over/under saturated. But for the most part, differences are going to be marginal. Certainly not the large differences you say you are getting.

Some of the other information provided can possibly be seen as useful the further you get into calibration, but it has no relevance to your initial question. You still have not provided any information on your patch generation source and/or what settings you used within LightSpace and until you do it is highly unlikely anyone can advise you further. My gut feeling is still that you have either a misconfigured GPU output (if as I guess you are using your laptop) or misconfigured LightSpace settings, or both.
Thank you for the info.
Correct I’m using a Dell win10 laptop using the hdmi out. I did find the hdmi output range was set to auto, but has a limited and full option. I am using the built in LightSpace generation.
However I did try an alternate source and got similar results as far as the lums and red. So still thinking it’s either the probe or the LightSpace settings.
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post #25 of 27 Old 02-02-2020, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
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Thank you for the info.
Correct I’m using a Dell win10 laptop using the hdmi out. I did find the hdmi output range was set to auto, but has a limited and full option. I am using the built in LightSpace generation.
However I did try an alternate source and got similar results as far as the lums and red. So still thinking it’s either the probe or the LightSpace settings.
Output must be set to RGB Full from the laptop.

Once connected, try setting the TV to RGB Limited in the Picture Settings. I think with Samsung, this will be called Black Level Low.

In LightSpace, begin by setting Patch Scale to 16 - 235 (forget about above white for now).

If the problem persists, your probe could be borked, but this should be easy to check. Just measure something else, like patches measured directly from your laptop screen for example.

If the probe operates as expected, find some other way to display patterns, such as USB media files. You need to do this to rule out the laptop incorrectly sending patterns. Free ones are available, just search these forums.

LG OLED65C9MLB**Denon AVR-X3500H**Focal Sib Evo Atmos 5.1.2**Sky Q UHD**Xbox One X**Panasonic DP-UB820**ATV 4K**Harmony Elite
i1D3 OEM**i1D3 Retail**i1 Pro2 OEM**LightSpace HTP**CalMAN Home for LG**RPi Pgenerator**Ted's Disk & Media Files**S & M HD & UHD HDR Benchmark Disks**HD Fury Integral 2
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post #26 of 27 Old 02-02-2020, 03:20 AM
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When using direct HDMI this info may help too: https://www.lightillusion.com/direct_profiling.html
Also, do post a Quick Profile report, so we can see what you are seeing.

Steve

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post #27 of 27 Old 02-02-2020, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies. I am actually flying out on business tomorrow for a week or so. But once I get back i'll dig back into this
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