Detla E of color saturation - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4Likes
  • 2 Post By Rolls-Royce
  • 1 Post By Dominic Chan
  • 1 Post By Rolls-Royce
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 02-01-2020, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Detla E of color saturation

Anyone shed any info on these.

My primary and secondary are good as you can see by the photos. I'll also add the saturation scale. How could i fix the 25 and 50 if anyone has any input. Thanks.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot (6).png
Views:	69
Size:	134.3 KB
ID:	2679078   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot (3).png
Views:	55
Size:	130.5 KB
ID:	2679080   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot (4).png
Views:	53
Size:	131.3 KB
ID:	2679082   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot (5).png
Views:	52
Size:	131.3 KB
ID:	2679084  
12voltb is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 12:02 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 11,566
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3927 Post(s)
Liked: 3946
Detla E of color saturation

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltb View Post
Anyone shed any info on these.



My primary and secondary are good as you can see by the photos. I'll also add the saturation scale. How could i fix the 25 and 50 if anyone has any input. Thanks.


What kind of set are you calibrating and does it have a full
Cms or just color and tint ? Can you post the chart with the color targets?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LG 77C8
LG 55B7A
DirectTV/ ATV4k/Panasonic UB820/Sony Z9F Soundbar
Calman Enthusiast, Lightspace, C6 HDR 2000 I1Pro2
chunon is online now  
post #3 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 06:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rolls-Royce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 4,583
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked: 1451
Unfortunately, this is very common. Most displays are not linear in their progression from darkest to brightest colors, and that is what you are seeing. The only real way to fix it is with a 3D LUT. A display's built-in CMS will not do it, as you can only adjust each color at a single saturation point (100%, 75%, etc) and hope that the others fall into line. If you are adjusting at 100%, you may want to try at 75% and see if things improve.
Anger.miki and AnotherDude like this.

...Royce...

"I never drink...wine."
Bela Lugosi, DRACULA, 1931

Last edited by Rolls-Royce; 02-02-2020 at 06:56 AM.
Rolls-Royce is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Chun on. I am using a not too good display. Vizio m65c-1. Just seeing how close it would get. Overall it does looks more true to life then what it was. Did you want to see the CIE diagram color chart? If so I can post that!!!

Royal, Thanks for info! I don’t know how to do 3D lut in hfcr yet. I’ll have to read on that if it can. Know enough of everything else to be dangerous lol. I used 100% saturation for the number showing. I guessing that if I did 75% it would the be 0% and 100% off and mid better? I will tinker with it for the heck of it. I kinda thought I would hit limitations to be excepted for sure with this va panel. More less just wanted to see what it could do.
12voltb is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 09:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AnotherDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,616
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1118 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Unfortunately, this is very common. Most displays are not linear in their progression from darkest to brightest colors, and that is what you are seeing. The only real way to fix it is with a 3D LUT. A display's built-in CMS will not do it, as you can only adjust each color at a single saturation point (100%, 75%, etc) and hope that the others fall into line. If you are adjusting at 100%, you may want to try at 75% and see if things improve.
Exactly. I'm not doing a LUT so I try several single points and find currently the 75% works much better than the 100% or 50% across the saturation levels. I calibrate using the Saturation Sweep option set to 75%, which I found works better for me than using CMS calibration @ 75%. You can also try luminance other than 75%.

With previous firmware 80% saturation with 85% luminance worked best for me. You need to check as firmware updates can affect the base calibration settings.

Try various options and see which one works best for your situation. Doing a Color Checker reading, not just a saturation sweep, helps with selection.

Edit: Forgot to mention, check also Color and Tint for minor adjustments.

---------------------------------------
Samsung 75Q9FN, Pioneer UDP-LX500, Outlaw 975, Sony TA-N9000ES
C6-HDR, VideoForge Pro, CalMAN Home Enthusiast, Win 10 Pro x64 1909
HT Enthusiast Extended Custom WF v22.0.0 - 1/8/2020
HT Enthusiast Essentials Custom WF v1.2.0 - 7/5/2019

Last edited by AnotherDude; 02-02-2020 at 09:23 AM.
AnotherDude is online now  
post #6 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Also yes chun it has a full CMS! But how good I’m finding that when adjusting saturation on color the luminance changes more then color reading xy so it’s probably a poor CMS.
12voltb is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Okay thanks another dude. When you say saturation sweep, do you mean a test pattern as in the 0% 25 50 75 100 pattern? Thanks
12voltb is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 09:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AnotherDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,616
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1118 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltb View Post
Okay thanks another dude. When you say saturation sweep, do you mean a test pattern as in the 0% 25 50 75 100 pattern? Thanks
I use CalMAN AutoCal from a Gamut Saturation Sweeps chart, and it allows the selection of the sweep level to calibrate. Not sure how your software treats this, but I'm guessing it's what you mention here.

---------------------------------------
Samsung 75Q9FN, Pioneer UDP-LX500, Outlaw 975, Sony TA-N9000ES
C6-HDR, VideoForge Pro, CalMAN Home Enthusiast, Win 10 Pro x64 1909
HT Enthusiast Extended Custom WF v22.0.0 - 1/8/2020
HT Enthusiast Essentials Custom WF v1.2.0 - 7/5/2019
AnotherDude is online now  
post #9 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 09:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,107
Mentioned: 171 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5825 Post(s)
Liked: 2336
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltb View Post
Anyone shed any info on these.

My primary and secondary are good as you can see by the photos. I'll also add the saturation scale. How could i fix the 25 and 50 if anyone has any input. Thanks.
Please post the HCFR data file for the measurements before and after you made the CMS adjustments.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #10 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Okay another dude. Thanks. HFCR is lot different. Uknown if it has those options. So what I will do is play with a test pattern at 75% and check the results difference. Thanks everyone for the info. Chun I will add a chart of current at what I have now and after when I try 75%.. Give me some time to tinker and i'll post both. Thanks again everyone. This has been fun.
12voltb is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I have not changed anything yet. There is the files. I had to re read the screen so then changed just slightly. Let me know if you need screen shots instead of files.
Attached Files
File Type: zip files.zip (2.8 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by 12voltb; 02-02-2020 at 10:09 AM.
12voltb is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 10:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,107
Mentioned: 171 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5825 Post(s)
Liked: 2336
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltb View Post
I have not changed anything yet. There is the files. I had to re read the screen so then changed just slightly. Let me know if you need screen shots instead of files.
This confirms that your display has a very non-linear saturation curve. As others have suggested, you can try to adjust the CMS based on the 75% saturation points. This will help with the 25% and 50% as well, at the expense of the 100% points which are less important for most real-life scenes.

Keep checking 75% and 100% as you adjust, and settle for the best "compromise".
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Nonlinear_Saturation.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	232.8 KB
ID:	2679300  
AnotherDude likes this.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #13 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
This confirms that your display has a very non-linear saturation curve. As others have suggested, you can try to adjust the CMS based on the 75% saturation points. This will help with the 25% and 50% as well, at the expense of the 100% points which are less important for most real-life scenes.

Keep checking 75% and 100% as you adjust, and settle for the best "compromise".
I will give it a try for sure! Thanks! How did you get that graph in HFCR? Or is this from another software? Like when people do tech stuff like this! lol I would like to see if I could show those points as well? Or does HFCR not allow?


Time for a new TV! LOL!

Last edited by 12voltb; 02-02-2020 at 11:06 AM.
12voltb is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
One other question. If i used 100% IRE color pattern's to set the lumiance of the color to get the Delta E errors I did, Should re cal them to 75% as well? Or leave them and just adjust to other stated?
12voltb is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 11:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,107
Mentioned: 171 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5825 Post(s)
Liked: 2336
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltb View Post
I will give it a try for sure! Thanks! How did you get that graph in HFCR? Or is this from another software? Like when people do tech stuff like this! lol I would like to see if I could show those points as well? Or does HFCR not allow?


Time for a new TV! LOL!
That graph is from HCFR. Just look for that icon on the toolbar and click on it, or from the menu select Graphs -> CIE Diagram.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #16 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Learn more every day. Right click it once open and have more options to display! Thanks!
12voltb is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Thank you everyone for the help! I have re done to 75% saturation got better and closer to the the color checker boxes. How ever the delta E when up about 4 to 6 per color luminance. So think I have reached my tv best it can do. If i go back and readjust the saturation it throws back off lumiance of the color so its a trade off. Thanks again everyone though. Learn a lot!
12voltb is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 01:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rolls-Royce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 4,583
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked: 1451
Traditionally, when not using a 3D LUT, the most important aspect for primary colors has been considered to be luminance, while for secondary colors, it is hue. Try that on your next attempt.
AnotherDude likes this.

...Royce...

"I never drink...wine."
Bela Lugosi, DRACULA, 1931
Rolls-Royce is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 01:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,107
Mentioned: 171 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5825 Post(s)
Liked: 2336
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltb View Post
Thank you everyone for the help! I have re done to 75% saturation got better and closer to the the color checker boxes. How ever the delta E when up about 4 to 6 per color luminance. So think I have reached my tv best it can do. If i go back and readjust the saturation it throws back off lumiance of the color so its a trade off. Thanks again everyone though. Learn a lot!
The adjustments are interactive, so you need to go back and forth between saturation and luminance, until you get the lowest dE. It’s easiest done the the measurement “grid” on the top part of the screen (to check the luminance), and the CIE chart on the bottom of the screen.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #20 of 20 Old 02-02-2020, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Very well on the new posts. With going back and forth and apply all i I can’t get it to even out Magenta and blue still have the highest delta E being between delta E 11 and 18 for blue and magenta 14 16 in the 50 to 75 % range. If I up the values more in the CMS no changes take effect. . It’s just the limitation at this point. The next I may try a 3D lut but don’t know anything about it. Might be limited by my i1display pro and hfcr software. Will play around more in the future. Just can’t get er on the head yet or for matter of lowest delta E
12voltb is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off