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post #1 of 18 Old 05-22-2020, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Linearity testing....

Hi, guys. I'm trying to prove which applications on the Mac are properly displaying color. I already calibrated my Dell UP2716D with my i1 Display pro. Using the Dell application (which is based on XRite) that writes the calibration into a 3D LUT in the monitor.

So now, with the calibrated monitor, I should be able to read its luminance and chrominance (R, G, and B) levels in Calman, using swatches I generated in Photoshop with color management turned off in Photoshop. I did a spreadsheet to calculate what % of 255 in order to create each 10% swatch. For example, 100% white is 255,255,255. 10% white should be 25,25,25.

I also turned those swatches into .mp4 movies using Adobe Media Encoder so I could play them as movies in Quicktime and other applications, to prove that each app was respecting the colorsync profile.

I'm effectively running Calman on a separate computer, but it might blow your mind that I have it in Parallels running in windows on the Mac. But it senses the i1 Display pro fine.

Here's where it gets crazy. First of all, Calman is set up for Blu-Ray video with 16-235 levels. But I want to proof full levels since I'm testing a workflow for eventual playback in YouTube.

But still, calman should be able to read the incoming luminance levels regardless of how they are encoded on the source side. I chose the luminance check "workflow" and "read continuous". The only reading that makes any sense is my 100% swatch reads 127 nits, close enough to show I'm in the ballpark. But the 50% swatch is reading way low and they all are off from there. Color indications in Calman are also way off except for a couple of the source swatches. And I'm just not sure if the luminance workflow is the best one because it asks to see whichever swatch is being generated and maybe it has to expect some level instead of just reading it.

Can anyone recommend an application (or a workflow in Calman) where I can just do a continuous reading and also read R,G, and B levels?
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post #2 of 18 Old 05-23-2020, 12:38 AM
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The Dell calibration application will not have loaded a 3D LUT into the monitor.
At best, it will have loaded a 1D LUT and 3x3 matrix, and may have additional volumetric information in an associated ICC profile.
(It's not even definite a 1D LUT is used in the monitor, but may be a VCGT in the graphics card, with no 3x3 matrix...)
The specs on the monitor I can find are not at all clear on this.

For issues with such calibration software please see: https://www.lightspace.lightillusion..._profiles.html

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post #3 of 18 Old 05-23-2020, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkatz View Post
Can anyone recommend an application (or a workflow in Calman) where I can just do a continuous reading and also read R,G, and B levels?
I suppose you would want to read XYZ/xyY values instead of RGB levels? Or are you talking about the input RGB values (which I guess should already be known to you)?

When a probe takes a color measurement, it returns XYZ values for the measured color. You will get chromaticity (x,y) and luminance (Y) information for the test patch when XYZ is converted to xyY. Well, XYZ values can also be converted to RGB with respect to a color space, if that color space contains the measured color. You can use HCFR if you really need to see RGB values, and it will also show XYZ/xyY.

Note that when you upload a video in Youtube, the colors of the uploaded video as seen in Youtube will not match with the colors seen when you play the file locally. It's because Youtube does some color processing on the uploaded videos.

Last edited by omarank; 05-23-2020 at 02:41 AM.
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post #4 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, guys. I'm very pleased and thankful that several experts, including Light Illusion have replied to my plea. And that the gentleman from Light Illusion corrected my misunderstanding about my Dell Monitor and its under-the-hood color correction technology. In fact, I just learned by studying your page that my wife's Eizo CG2730 also does not have a 3d LUT! Quite surprising given the high cost of that monitor.

I just "assumed" that it did have a 3D LUT. Regardless, I've found the Delta E results on her monitor using ColorNavigator, and on my Dell using its application seem to be pretty good. At least the Dell and the Eizo limit the gamuts to the color space that has been chosen.

Back to my question, I'm looking for a simple substitute for Calman so I can see what's going on when I play swatches in Adobe Premiere Pro. I'll check out HFCR as posted by another expert in this thread. Please stand by.


Best regards,


Bob Katz

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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
The Dell calibration application will not have loaded a 3D LUT into the monitor.
At best, it will have loaded a 1D LUT and 3x3 matrix, and may have additional volumetric information in an associated ICC profile.
(It's not even definite a 1D LUT is used in the monitor, but may be a VCGT in the graphics card, with no 3x3 matrix...)
The specs on the monitor I can find are not at all clear on this.

For issues with such calibration software please see: https://www.lightspace.lightillusion..._profiles.html

Steve
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post #5 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 02:15 AM
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The Free version of LightSpace can be used as you require, and so will the free version of ColourSpace, when available.
https://www.lightillusion.com/free.html

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post #6 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all for the introduction to HCFR. It's dedicated to a different purpose than Calman and allowed me to measure and compare Quicktime Pro vs. Premiere Pro with and without color management. Proved that at the critical 10 to 20% white PP performs better with DISPLAY COLOR MANAGEMENT TURNED OFF.

The fault is apparently with PP because Quicktime Pro does much better from 0-10% white. I wonder if I could make a better Colorsync profile

The Dell UP2716D monitor uses a modified version of XRite Profiler made by XRite for their Dell application. Of course it knows at the top that the Dell uses a GN-BLU LED, which is an inconsequential thing. The main difference is that at the end of the calibration process, the application saves something into the calibration memory of the Dell. Whether it's a LUT or a matrix or whatever remains a mystery. Dell's not telling. :-(

I wonder if I can produce a better ICC profile for the Dell using HCFR. One of them dedicated to Premiere, one to Quicktime. Which I can do because HCFR allows external swatches and I can play Premiere or Quicktime like a disk player.

Does anyone have a script for changing profiles from the command line or Applescript? Thanks a lot for your help.
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post #7 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
The Free version of LightSpace can be used as you require, and so will the free version of ColourSpace, when available.
https://www.lightillusion.com/free.html

Steve
Thanks, Steve. I'm overloaded with calibration apps on Mac and PC. Sometimes I can't remember which one I'm supposed to use. I have to keep careful notes :-)
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post #8 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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By the way, I sent the author of HCFR a little donation as it's a very nice little test application.

Now that I know that neither Quicktime nor Premiere is perfect and my Dell monitor leaves something to be desired, I'd like to move forward with the goal of seeing if I can make Quicktime on the Mac and Premiere Pro on the mac perform more correctly and more similarly. I've seen a large difference in color between the two applications. HCFR reveals that Quicktime Pro is the more accurate of the two, in the critical 10-20% gray range.

I"m dependent on the Dell application to save some sort of calibration data into the memory of the Dell and also it generates an ICC profile that includes some further correction. Maybe, if I'm lucky, I can create a custom profile for each application I use on the Mac. My hope is that by using Premiere or Quicktime as the pattern generator I can make a custom profile for Quicktime and another for Premiere. Maybe it won't prove any better, but you never know. I want to try.

Previously I've used Calman to create a 3D LUT for use in JRiver with MADVR. I see that Calman can also create an ICC profile. But it looks like Calman needs to use its own pattern generator (a remote-controlled pattern generator on a client computer). Does anyone know if Calman is capable of using an independent pattern generator, like a "simulated Blu-ray player" to generate the patches that it needs?

It gets deep, of course. I imagine I should play from Premiere using a LINEAR profile to do the analysis and then with luck the new ICC profile that is generated will compensate for all of Premiere's mistakes. Or maybe not, maybe Premiere is just not capable of reading an ICC profile very well. But it's worth a try.

I know, all this to avoid spending a fortune on a video monitor with a 3D LUT! Maybe someday. If only there were something like MADVR available for Mac that would use a software 3D LUT to do display correction for all sources on the mac.
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post #9 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkatz View Post
I see that Calman can also create an ICC profile. But it looks like Calman needs to use its own pattern generator (a remote-controlled pattern generator on a client computer). Does anyone know if Calman is capable of using an independent pattern generator, like a "simulated Blu-ray player" to generate the patches that it needs?
No, but LightSpace/ColourSpace can, using DIP mode.
See: https://www.lightspace.lightillusion...time_per_frame
And SpaceMan can be used for ICC generation.

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post #10 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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To summarize: Since Calman must use its own pattern generator, I'm now looking for an application that can create an ICC profile and use an independent generator, manually-controlled, like Premiere or Quicktime Player, to play patches --- and then generate an ICC profile.

Light Illusion replied that Colorspace can do this in DIP mode. I'm sorry that Colorspace/Lightspace is out of my budget. Is there any less expensive application that would allow me to do this?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkatz View Post
I wonder if I can produce a better ICC profile for the Dell using HCFR. One of them dedicated to Premiere, one to Quicktime. Which I can do because HCFR allows external swatches and I can play Premiere or Quicktime like a disk player.

Does anyone have a script for changing profiles from the command line or Applescript? Thanks a lot for your help.
You can use Argyll's dispwin command to install/change an ICC profile for your monitor. A script can also be created.

If you want to color match Premiere Pro and Quicktime, there is another thing that can be tried. Your Monitor ICC profile can be converted to a LUT, and that LUT can be loaded in Premiere Pro via Lumetri Color panel. ICC color management should then be disabled in Premiere Pro. You can then see if the colors match between the two applications. To give an explanation to this approach, the idea is, if your Monitor ICC profile is a basic one (with just VCGT data or RGB channel curves, primaries coordinates and chromatic adaptation matrix), Quicktime would be applying a simple color transform to process the video. That transform can be generated externally and saved as a LUT to be used in Premiere Pro. So, in all likelihood, colors between the two applications should match then. However, if your Monitor ICC profile supports different gamut mapping modes with A2B/B2A tables for different intents etc, then different kinds of color transforms may be generated by different applications and more complex methods would be required to probe the transform that Quicktime is generating on the fly.

For highest color accuracy, you should profile your monitor with a large sequence of color test patches and get a Calibration 3DLUT, which when loaded in Premiere Pro will do a volumetric color correction for your monitor, and this way Premiere Pro output would be your reference output.


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Does anyone know if Calman is capable of using an independent pattern generator, like a "simulated Blu-ray player" to generate the patches that it needs?
I don't think it's possible with CalMAN. You can use DisplayCAL's untethered mode or DIP mode in LightSpace/ColourSpace.


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It gets deep, of course. I imagine I should play from Premiere using a LINEAR profile to do the analysis and then with luck the new ICC profile that is generated will compensate for all of Premiere's mistakes. Or maybe not, maybe Premiere is just not capable of reading an ICC profile very well. But it's worth a try.
I am not sure if there is anything like a Linear ICC Device Profile. A Display ICC Device Profile will be for some color space.

If you used Resolve instead of Premiere Pro, you could use DisplayCAL to display patterns via Resolve's internal test pattern generator (just like you used madTPG for madVR calibration 3DLUT). CalMAN and LightSpace can also be used (but will require you to buy a license).
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Light Illusion replied that Colorspace can do this in DIP mode. I'm sorry that Colorspace/Lightspace is out of my budget. Is there any less expensive application that would allow me to do this?
As mentioned above, you can try DisplayCAL's untethered mode. DisplayCAL is free software.
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post #13 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Please forgive the multiple posts!

I have another thought: HCFR has revealed that the red levels in the Dell are meaningfully lower than the G and B levels after its calibration.

I'm wondering if I can do this:

1) Instead of using Cal 1 and Cal 2 in the Dell, I set it to custom color and adjust its white point and black point levels manually using HCFR and HCFR's pattern generator and a linear Profile in OSX Displays. I can also do color temperature and a few other tweaks in custom color. The old fashioned way we used to do with CRTs. This gets the monitor to the closest it can get come with its internal adjustments. Pity I can't save that to a Cal slot, but custom color will have to do.

2) Since I do both still photography and video: I switch to i1Profiler and I create a profile for 120 Nits with something close to BT.1886 gamma, for use with video. I then create another profile set to 80 Nits for use with Adobe RGB and Adobe RGB Gamma (2.2).

3) I test Premiere Pro running swatches in HCFR and use it with color management off or on, whichever is most accurate according to HCFR.

4) Quicktime Player will hopefully be even more friendly than Premiere with this new profile for the Dell.

And some day, I get a new monitor with an integral 3D LUT!
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post #14 of 18 Old 05-25-2020, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by omarank View Post
You can use Argyll's dispwin command to install/change an ICC profile for your monitor. A script can also be created.

If you want to color match Premiere Pro and Quicktime, there is another thing that can be tried. Your Monitor ICC profile can be converted to a LUT, and that LUT can be loaded in Premiere Pro via Lumetri Color panel. ICC color management should then be disabled in Premiere Pro. You can then see if the colors match between the two applications. To give an explanation to this approach, the idea is, if your Monitor ICC profile is a basic one (with just VCGT data or RGB channel curves, primaries coordinates and chromatic adaptation matrix), Quicktime would be applying a simple color transform to process the video. That transform can be generated externally and saved as a LUT to be used in Premiere Pro. So, in all likelihood, colors between the two applications should match then. However, if your Monitor ICC profile supports different gamut mapping modes with A2B/B2A tables for different intents etc, then different kinds of color transforms may be generated by different applications and more complex methods would be required to probe the transform that Quicktime is generating on the fly.

For highest color accuracy, you should profile your monitor with a large sequence of color test patches and get a Calibration 3DLUT, which when loaded in Premiere Pro will do a volumetric color correction for your monitor, and this way Premiere Pro output would be your reference output.



I don't think it's possible with CalMAN. You can use DisplayCAL's untethered mode or DIP mode in LightSpace/ColourSpace.



I am not sure if there is anything like a Linear ICC Device Profile. A Display ICC Device Profile will be for some color space.

If you used Resolve instead of Premiere Pro, you could use DisplayCAL to display patterns via Resolve's internal test pattern generator (just like you used madTPG for madVR calibration 3DLUT). CalMAN and LightSpace can also be used (but will require you to buy a license).
Thanks for the information, Omarank

I already know about using a 3D LUT in Lumetri Premiere to compensate for Display and act like a display profile. But the workflow gives me the creeps... to remember to remove the LUT before exporting and then put it in when editing seems like a recipe for disaster and mindf*cks. Unless you know some other trick...

I tried Display Cal previously and rejected it for my purposes because I didn't think it had something like its "untethered" mode.

Nevertheless, reading about untethered mode at the link you gave me gives me the chills.

I'm going to try yet another, different workflow! First I'll adjust the Dell monitor as closely as possible HCFR using custom color, setting luminance, black and white points and color temperature in the monitor with a linear profile. Or at least what I think is a linear profile. It's the profile left around by i1Display called "DisplayProfile_Linear.icc" which i1 uses during its calibration process.

In fact, I'm surprised that Display Cal doesn't switch to a linear profile during its measurement. It only switches to a linear profile if it sees that we're re-profiling with a profile it had already created. Strange. There seems to be a mode where it will go to a linear profile, but I get rather mixed up by all the deep controls in Display Cal. It's a DEEP program and looks like it will produce a very good Delta E as well.

I'll come back here after I do a little more experimenting and learning! STand by for the fireworks!
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Quote:
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I'm going to try yet another, different workflow! First I'll adjust the Dell monitor as closely as possible HCFR using custom color, setting luminance, black and white points and color temperature in the monitor with a linear profile. Or at least what I think is a linear profile. It's the profile left around by i1Display called "DisplayProfile_Linear.icc" which i1 uses during its calibration process.
The linear profile you are referring to is an ICC Device Profile with a Linear VCGT, which when installed as a Monitor ICC profile will load a Unity 1DLUT in the GPU gamma table (VCGT). The other gamut information that it carries will make an ICC aware application generate a color transform that distorts the colors. So, when this profile is installed, you will see distorted colors and you will know the profile is active. And when you disable the ICC color management in an ICC aware application, the image frames outputted by the application are sent to the GPU frame buffer without any color manipulation/correction - as the VCGT is also set to Unity. To summarize, that X-Rite linear profile serves to ensure that no color management is active with respect to an ICC aware application, if you have disabled the ICC color management in that application.

In case you have been thinking that the X-Rite profile is some kind of a passthrough profile in itself, it is not. It can be used though to get a passthrough/no color management state with respect to an application.
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Wow! You guys know so much. I spend my life as a professional audio engineer but in the video color field, I am just a learner.

Thanks all, for the advice. I finally got round to analyzing the output of Premiere Pro versus Quicktime, using HCFR and i1 Display Pro. And compared it with the internal generator of HCFR going through Apple's Color Profile + the Dell Cal 2 position for rec.709. Each application reveals its strengths and weaknesses, neither one is as accurate as the HCFR generator itself. To complicate matters, I run HCFR in Parallels/Win 10 so I'm not 100% sure if Parallels recognizes Apple's colorsync for application output.

HCFR on OSX does not support the i1 Pro colorimeter. Maybe someday I can master "untethered" mode in Display Cal so I don't have to use Parallels. All I want is to make a 10 step grayscale test chart that can be used in untethered mode in Display Cal for this purpose, as I'm not profiling, I'm just doing basic research at this point. And untethered mode with a giant test chart would be masochistic.

Bottom line: Looks like I'm going to have to eventually create a 3D LUT for "monitor correction" in Premiere because of my OCD. :-)


Best wishes,


Bob


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The linear profile you are referring to is an ICC Device Profile with a Linear VCGT, which when installed as a Monitor ICC profile will load a Unity 1DLUT in the GPU gamma table (VCGT). The other gamut information that it carries will make an ICC aware application generate a color transform that distorts the colors. So, when this profile is installed, you will see distorted colors and you will know the profile is active. And when you disable the ICC color management in an ICC aware application, the image frames outputted by the application are sent to the GPU frame buffer without any color manipulation/correction - as the VCGT is also set to Unity. To summarize, that X-Rite linear profile serves to ensure that no color management is active with respect to an ICC aware application, if you have disabled the ICC color management in that application.

In case you have been thinking that the X-Rite profile is some kind of a passthrough profile in itself, it is not. It can be used though to get a passthrough/no color management state with respect to an application.
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I'm overloaded with calibration apps on Mac and PC. Sometimes I can't remember which one I'm supposed to use. I have to keep careful notes :-)
That about sums it up really well. I guess that's why my dad has gotten an EIZO with an integrated calibrator. I'm not exactly sure if that's comparable, accuracy wise, but it's convenient for sure.

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Wow! You guys know so much. I spend my life as a professional audio engineer but in the video color field, I am just a learner.

Thanks all, for the advice. I finally got round to analyzing the output of Premiere Pro versus Quicktime, using HCFR and i1 Display Pro. And compared it with the internal generator of HCFR going through Apple's Color Profile + the Dell Cal 2 position for rec.709. Each application reveals its strengths and weaknesses, neither one is as accurate as the HCFR generator itself. To complicate matters, I run HCFR in Parallels/Win 10 so I'm not 100% sure if Parallels recognizes Apple's colorsync for application output.

HCFR on OSX does not support the i1 Pro colorimeter. Maybe someday I can master "untethered" mode in Display Cal so I don't have to use Parallels. All I want is to make a 10 step grayscale test chart that can be used in untethered mode in Display Cal for this purpose, as I'm not profiling, I'm just doing basic research at this point. And untethered mode with a giant test chart would be masochistic.
You are an eminent figure in audio. I guess you don't need to introduce yourself.

Untethered mode can be used in two ways:

1. For Manual Measurements where you step through a pre-defined list of patches and take measurements manually.

A 10 step greyscale chart is small enough that you can take the measurements manually. So, you can use the Untethered mode in this way. All you need to do is just uncheck 'Auto' after you click on 'Profile only' in the Display tab in DisplayCAL, so as to enable the Manual mode.


2. For Automatic Measurements of a patch set. Here 'Auto' needs to be checked.

This method sounds complicated from the description, but it is not that difficult if you try it. If you have any questions about it, maybe I can help.
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