sony vpl HW30 + I1display pro problem - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 34 Old 06-18-2020, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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sony vpl HW30 + I1display pro problem

I've used the firt time I1display + HCFR t to calibrate a LCD tv and it was quiet easy.
then I try to calibrate my sony vpl HW30 , it's a reflesive LCD, but something doesnt work

With the Projector HCFR always show that all gray tone are too rich on BLUE and missing on RED. To have the 3 RGB values closer each other I heve to set the RGB projector control to the end of the scale (blue to miniminu and red to maximun), and the images are owful.
If put on the screen then "Pattern windows" (where HCFR send the color pattern the colorimeter will read) and "reference windows" they look identical, but if I compare with "measured windows" (that show what the I1 read) always show a more rich in blue. So it seems to me that the I1 reads a lot ok blue that is not present.
What is the problem?
Thank you
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post #2 of 34 Old 06-18-2020, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I've used the firt time I1display + HCFR t to calibrate a LCD tv and it was quiet easy.
then I try to calibrate my sony vpl HW30 , it's a reflesive LCD, but something doesnt work

With the Projector HCFR always show that all gray tone are too rich on BLUE and missing on RED. To have the 3 RGB values closer each other I heve to set the RGB projector control to the end of the scale (blue to miniminu and red to maximun), and the images are owful.
If put on the screen then "Pattern windows" (where HCFR send the color pattern the colorimeter will read) and "reference windows" they look identical, but if I compare with "measured windows" (that show what the I1 read) always show a more rich in blue. So it seems to me that the I1 reads a lot ok blue that is not present.
What is the problem?
Thank you
Most info is needed. Post the HCFR data file (.chc) that contains the greyscale sweep.

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post #3 of 34 Old 06-18-2020, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I upload the chc file (zipped).
I've put the sensor at 1.5 mt from the screen where the screen image height vas 1 mt
room was dark
HCFR was set as default
thank you in advance
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post #4 of 34 Old 06-19-2020, 01:08 AM
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How many hours is your HW30?


I have a HW30 myself and the projector is unwatchable after only 600 hours due to panel degradation / display panel issue. As the projector had passes its' warranty period, Sony won't show any sympathy to me.


I have tried calibrate it (hired 2 different pro-calibrator) with pro equipment and software, both also end up giving up on the unit.


You might want to check on the Sony projector panel degradation thread.

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post #5 of 34 Old 06-19-2020, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I upload the chc file (zipped).
I've put the sensor at 1.5 mt from the screen where the screen image height vas 1 mt
room was dark
HCFR was set as default
thank you in advance
Unfortunately, as mpyw mentioned, the projector exhibits significant panel degradation and the conventional 2-point gain/offset adjustments won't be able to adequately correct it.

Multi-point RGB gamma adjustment can help somewhat, but you need Sony's Image Director software to make such adjustments.

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post #6 of 34 Old 06-19-2020, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Unfortunately, as mpyw mentioned, the projector exhibits significant panel degradation and the conventional 2-point gain/offset adjustments won't be able to adequately correct it.

Multi-point RGB gamma adjustment can help somewhat, but you need Sony's Image Director software to make such adjustments.

If I look on the screen pattern (the big one the sensor point to), reference and measured windows closed each other, Reference and pattern color looks identical but measured show much more blue. This tell me that the sensor read someting different.
When I look a film from BD the color looks quiet good
If I correnct with the projector control to have correct RGB values, the image became always very red.


Sony's Image Director software does not work on this prj model
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post #7 of 34 Old 06-19-2020, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
If I look on the screen pattern (the big one the sensor point to), reference and measured windows closed each other, Reference and pattern color looks identical but measured show much more blue. This tell me that the sensor read someting different.
When I look a film from BD the color looks quiet good
If I correnct with the projector control to have correct RGB values, the image became always very red.


Sony's Image Director software does not work on this prj model
Can you also post the .chc file for the post-calibration measurements?

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post #8 of 34 Old 06-19-2020, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post
How many hours is your HW30?


I have a HW30 myself and the projector is unwatchable after only 600 hours due to panel degradation / display panel issue. As the projector had passes its' warranty period, Sony won't show any sympathy to me.


I have tried calibrate it (hired 2 different pro-calibrator) with pro equipment and software, both also end up giving up on the unit.


You might want to check on the Sony projector panel degradation thread.
Have you used Sony's Image Director ? Because on sony webpage this model is not mentioned as compatible one
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post #9 of 34 Old 06-19-2020, 05:24 AM
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Have you used Sony's Image Director ? Because on sony webpage this model is not mentioned as compatible one
The Sony website only lists HW50ES (in addition to the VW models), and yet I had no problems using it with my HW45ES.

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post #10 of 34 Old 06-20-2020, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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How many hours is your HW30?


.
800 hrs
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post #11 of 34 Old 06-20-2020, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Sony website only lists HW50ES (in addition to the VW models), and yet I had no problems using it with my HW45ES.
I've tryed with imagdirector, it connect to the projector but does not allow to select any gamma preset
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post #12 of 34 Old 06-20-2020, 07:06 AM
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I've tryed with imagdirector, it connect to the projector but does not allow to select any gamma preset
See attachment
You have to click something on the screen first; I think it’s the arrow icon.

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post #13 of 34 Old 06-20-2020, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I've tryed with imagdirector, it connect to the projector but does not allow to select any gamma preset
See attachment
Sorry,, I find the way to use imagedirector
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post #14 of 34 Old 06-21-2020, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank's to all your suggestions: I was able to adjust che color level with imagedirector, but is clear that the LCD panel is degradated as the single color on the full screen is not uniform: the center of the screen is clearly different from the border

I have one more question. At this moment I am calibrating with grayscale only: With imagedirector, changes on a single color curve has visible effet (on HCFR measurement) untill 2/3 of the scale. Is possible that the color range that HCFR generate il less extended as the projector can show?
Thank you
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post #15 of 34 Old 06-21-2020, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
At this moment I am calibrating with grayscale only: With imagedirector, changes on a single color curve has visible effet (on HCFR measurement) untill 2/3 of the scale. Is possible that the color range that HCFR generate il less extended as the projector can show?
If you’re adjusting greyscale HCFR will be sending out grey patterns between full black (0,0,0) and full white (256,256,256), or the limited range equivalent. What do you mean by “less extended than the projector can show?”

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post #16 of 34 Old 06-21-2020, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you’re adjusting greyscale HCFR will be sending out grey patterns between full black (0,0,0) and full white (256,256,256), or the limited range equivalent. What do you mean by “less extended than the projector can show?”
As the gamma color modification made with imagedirector has no visible effect over 2/3 of the gamma scale I suppose that HCFR does not use the full color wide range
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post #17 of 34 Old 06-21-2020, 01:18 PM
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As the gamma color modification made with imagedirector has no visible effect over 2/3 of the gamma scale I suppose that HCFR does not use the full color wide range
I still don’t follow. It’s easier to see HCFR data file together with the adjustments that you made that had no effect.

If you’re increasing the output when adjusting the gamma curve and see no difference in the measurements, it would mean the projector output is clipping, not because HCFR.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 06-21-2020 at 01:21 PM.
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post #18 of 34 Old 06-24-2020, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I still don’t follow. It’s easier to see HCFR data file together with the adjustments that you made that had no effect.

If you’re increasing the output when adjusting the gamma curve and see no difference in the measurements, it would mean the projector output is clipping, not because HCFR.
I've forced a blue curve with a lot reduction on low level then it rise up after value 100 (vertical axes), on imagedirector. If you look the compared data of HCFR blue curve you see that this raise up after 60%. This tell me that the value of 300 on image director is over what hcfr measure
I hope il clear. Or I am wrong?
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post #19 of 34 Old 06-24-2020, 12:25 PM
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I've forced a blue curve with a lot reduction on low level then it rise up after value 100 (vertical axes), on imagedirector. If you look the compared data of HCFR blue curve you see that this raise up after 60%. This tell me that the value of 300 on image director is over what hcfr measure
I hope il clear. Or I am wrong?
Sorry, still don’t understand. Need to see the Before and After HCFR files.

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post #20 of 34 Old 06-24-2020, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, still don’t understand. Need to see the Before and After HCFR files.
Why the BLUE curve on HCFR does not look like the blue curve on image director?
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post #21 of 34 Old 06-24-2020, 12:59 PM
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Why the BLUE curve on HCFR does not look like the blue curve on image director?
Why should they look the same? They are not plotting the same information.

If you look at the "Before" pair, Image Director would show three perfectly linear diagonal lines superimposed on one another, whereas HCFR would show R/G/B having very different shapes and levels. However, if you increase/decrease any curve in Image Director, you should see a corresponding change in HCFR. That's why I asked you to post the Before shots.

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post #22 of 34 Old 06-24-2020, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Why should they look the same? They are not plotting the same information. If you look at the "Before", ImageDirector would show three perfectly linear diagonal line superimposed on one another, whereas HCFR would show R/G/B having very different shapes.
i've reset the gamma curves as default flat on imadirector: flat.zip contain the relative chc file
then I've modified only blue as on the image and modif.zip contain the relative chc file
On the second you can see that the blue curve on Imagedirector raise up around 300 that is 1/3 of the full range. But on chc file you can see that here the blue curve rise up around 60% of hcfr scale. Why?
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post #23 of 34 Old 06-24-2020, 01:31 PM
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i've reset the gamma curves as default flat on imadirector: flat.zip contain the relative chc file
then I've modified only blue as on the image and modif.zip contain the relative chc file
On the second you can see that the blue curve on Imagedirector raise up around 300 that is 1/3 of the full range. But on chc file you can see that here the blue curve rise up around 60% of hcfr scale. Why?
You cannot compare the "shape" of the Image Director curve with the curve in HCFR, as one is a relative gamma (relative to gamma 2.2, diagonal line), whereas the other is % RGB relative to the reference (horizontal line).

If you look at the Before (dotted) and After (solid) RGB graph, you can see that the changes are consistent with the adjustment you made in Image Director.



% change in the gamma curve does not translate into the same % change on the RGB graph. It’s a non-linear relationship.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 06-26-2020 at 04:56 PM.
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post #24 of 34 Old 07-02-2020, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You cannot compare the "shape" of the Image Director curve with the curve in HCFR, as one is a relative gamma (relative to gamma 2.2, diagonal line), whereas the other is % RGB relative to the reference (horizontal line).

If you look at the Before (dotted) and After (solid) RGB graph, you can see that the changes are consistent with the adjustment you made in Image Director.



% change in the gamma curve does not translate into the same % change on the RGB graph. It’s a non-linear relationship.
Thank you.

I do many test and discover that color wide space parameter on projector is the trick. If set to standard (SRGB) the gamut is more smaller then the reference and changes on imagedirector values over 2/3 of the scale has no visible effect. If I change to wide2-3 the gamut is bigger and changes on imagedirector has more visible effect.
Is not clear to me what % values on HCFR RGB graph means. What is the reference value for 100%? If I change the prJ brightness the values goes up and down, but to have values around 100% I have to set the lam to low, close the diaphragm and move down the bright slider that is not the normal working condition.
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post #25 of 34 Old 07-03-2020, 06:10 AM
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Is not clear to me what % values on HCFR RGB graph means. What is the reference value for 100%?
The reference for % RGB is shown under Y Target. In the example below reference 33.887 nits for white, and the projector's red channels measured 73.5%, blue channel measured 131.8%, relative to that.

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post #26 of 34 Old 07-03-2020, 11:20 AM
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If you want to calibrate your Sony with HCFR.

1. Measure the gamut of all the custom gamut modes to find the widest gamut mode.

2. Use RGB gain controls in custom color temp to balance 100% white to 6500K.

3. Use image director gamma editor to bring all 3 colors in line to 100% from 1% to 99%. Make sure you have include gamma enabled in HCFR white balance graph.

4. Edit the primary and secondary colors on the Sony’s CMS, do most of the adjusting against the 75% saturation pattern, but check the full saturation sweep periodically.

5. Use black and white clipping patterns to set your brightness and contrast controls.

Here is a 55ES I did.

https://nicko88.com/misc/sony55es/stock.pdf

https://nicko88.com/misc/sony55es/calibrated.pdf

The result was stunning.

(If you are wondering, I intentionally let my 100% white be above 1.0dE to allow it to be slightly brighter)

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post #27 of 34 Old 07-03-2020, 02:04 PM
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1. Measure the gamut of all the custom gamut modes to find the widest gamut mode.
To calibrate my HW45ES I use the narrowest gamut that covers BT.709.

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post #28 of 34 Old 07-03-2020, 07:07 PM
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To calibrate my HW45ES I use the narrowest gamut that covers BT.709.

Yeah that makes sense.

I am used to 40ES, 50ES, 55ES which are older and I guess with more hours and panel degradation all 3 custom gamut modes were all always less than 100% rec709 so I go with which of the 3 is the widest.

The 45ES are newer and hopefully doesn’t have as much degradation.
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post #29 of 34 Old 07-04-2020, 02:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The reference for % RGB is shown under Y Target. In the example below reference 33.887 nits for white, and the projector's red channels measured 73.5%, blue channel measured 131.8%, relative to that.
So Y target is the nit value the sensor read?

Last edited by [email protected]; 07-04-2020 at 04:45 AM.
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post #30 of 34 Old 07-04-2020, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Have you used Sony's Image Director ? Because on sony webpage this model is not mentioned as compatible one
I have used Image Director on a VW60 and a VW760, so as long as you can interface with the HW30 via LAN or RS232 you should be able to make use of the software.

Edit: I have now seen you managed to get it to work. As you were.

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Last edited by Archibald1; 07-04-2020 at 02:52 AM.
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