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post #4561 of 4666 Old 01-04-2018, 05:53 AM
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Thanks, I've tested the MP4 version and that works fine. But after doing some more research and messing around with HCFR, I noticed it has the ability to generate patterns directly to my Shield with Chromecast which is super handy and gives the ability for any arbitrary color checking.
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post #4562 of 4666 Old 01-04-2018, 08:26 AM
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Thanks, I've tested the MP4 version and that works fine. But after doing some more research and messing around with HCFR, I noticed it has the ability to generate patterns directly to my Shield with Chromecast which is super handy and gives the ability for any arbitrary color checking.
The automation is fine, when you have verified that you have agreement, there a lot of times where there mismatching, because at the end of the day, you need to have accurate colors from the source you are using to playback the movies, not from an application.

If you compare some grayscale and saturation measurement runs and compare the results and see that you have matching of black/white levels, gamma, RGB Balance and color gamut readings between both solutions then you can use the automated way of patch generation without problem.

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post #4563 of 4666 Old 01-04-2018, 05:48 PM
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Yeah I'll definitely do a run of greyscale and RGB primaries/secondaries and saturations on both the MP4 version of AVCHD off the USB drive and HCFR pattern generation through Chromecast to make sure they are in agreement.
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post #4564 of 4666 Old 01-05-2018, 05:08 PM
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Yeah I'll definitely do a run of greyscale and RGB primaries/secondaries and saturations on both the MP4 version of AVCHD off the USB drive and HCFR pattern generation through Chromecast to make sure they are in agreement.
That's a good point. It doesn't matter what the results are does it. Just that the readings are the same from both sources?

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post #4565 of 4666 Old 01-07-2018, 04:30 AM
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That's a good point. It doesn't matter what the results are does it. Just that the readings are the same from both sources?
The Black Level, White Level, Primary/Secondary colors chromaticity/luminance, gamma tracking, all these have to agree. (having in mind the meter repeatability, display stability also).

After examining the reports from both solutions, comparing the numbers it will confirm if there agreement or not.

It will be required to see the xyY readings than the dE reporting because if both devices have 1 dE lets say, the one can have 1dE towards to green and the other 1dE towards to red, so looking only the dE which can be the same for both, doesn't mean that it's ok for sure.

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post #4566 of 4666 Old 01-07-2018, 10:41 AM
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The Black Level, White Level, Primary/Secondary colors chromaticity/luminance, gamma tracking, all these have to agree. (having in mind the meter repeatability, display stability also).

After examining the reports from both solutions, comparing the numbers it will confirm if there agreement or not.

It will be required to see the xyY readings than the dE reporting because if both devices have 1 dE lets say, the one can have 1dE towards to green and the other 1dE towards to red, so looking only the dE which can be the same for both, doesn't mean that it's ok for sure.
Thanks Ted! Ok, so I should check the xyY readings.

What I'm struggling with is could be meter repeatability and display stability. But also, as well as those two, I don't understand why the target values, are also changing?

I will attach two screenshots, "History 4" and "History 5" tabs are from two sets of readings, one done after the other. I did not change anything, I just did another "read series".

Are [x: CIE31, y: CIE31, Y] representations in the 3d colour volume of the colour that the meter has just read? (hope that's a "yes"!)
Is "Target Y" a representation of the luminance which it thinks it should be getting, if the display is correct? With dE then being calculated from "Y vs Target Y"?

Why are the "Target Y" values different between the two screenshots? That's really troubling me!

Does anyone have a screenshot or list of the "correct" targetY values from 0-100% in 10step intervals? That would really help I think!
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post #4567 of 4666 Old 01-07-2018, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Thanks Ted! Ok, so I should check the xyY readings.

What I'm struggling with is could be meter repeatability and display stability. But also, as well as those two, I don't understand why the target values, are also changing?

I will attach two screenshots, "History 4" and "History 5" tabs are from two sets of readings, one done after the other. I did not change anything, I just did another "read series".

Are [x: CIE31, y: CIE31, Y] representations in the 3d colour volume of the colour that the meter has just read? (hope that's a "yes"!)
Is "Target Y" a representation of the luminance which it thinks it should be getting, if the display is correct? With dE then being calculated from "Y vs Target Y"?

Why are the "Target Y" values different between the two screenshots? That's really troubling me!

Does anyone have a screenshot or list of the "correct" targetY values from 0-100% in 10step intervals? That would really help I think!
If you pick a screenshot and look at the target and actual values for 100%, they will be the same. This will also be true on the other screenshot. The program takes the actual read Y value of 100% and uses that to calculate target Y values for all the grayscale points based on the desired gamma. From run to run, you will see the actual Y of 100% - and hence the Y targets for all points - vary slightly due to meter and display repeatability. Grayscale dE is computed from the differences between actual and target luminance and between the actual and target color of gray for each measurement point.

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post #4568 of 4666 Old 01-08-2018, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Thanks Ted! Ok, so I should check the xyY readings.

What I'm struggling with is could be meter repeatability and display stability. But also, as well as those two, I don't understand why the target values, are also changing?

I will attach two screenshots, "History 4" and "History 5" tabs are from two sets of readings, one done after the other. I did not change anything, I just did another "read series".

Are [x: CIE31, y: CIE31, Y] representations in the 3d colour volume of the colour that the meter has just read? (hope that's a "yes"!)
Is "Target Y" a representation of the luminance which it thinks it should be getting, if the display is correct? With dE then being calculated from "Y vs Target Y"?

Why are the "Target Y" values different between the two screenshots? That's really troubling me!

Does anyone have a screenshot or list of the "correct" targetY values from 0-100% in 10step intervals? That would really help I think!
Hi, software calculated the Grayscale target luminance per grayscale step based to your black and 100% white reading. This is why the targets or Y are slight different per each measurement run.

The xy per each grayscale point is fixed from your D65 White point selection, the Y is changing. When you look a CIE Chart (2D) you see the 2 dimensions of the color, the third dimension (Y, luminance) is the third dimension.

Change your RGB balance chart scale to +-20, you have +-6 now which is increasing the difference meter is measuring. Your display/meter seems stable for any test.

To see your meter color/luminance repeatability/accuracy see there.

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post #4569 of 4666 Old 01-08-2018, 12:46 PM
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If you pick a screenshot and look at the target and actual values for 100%, they will be the same. This will also be true on the other screenshot. The program takes the actual read Y value of 100% and uses that to calculate target Y values for all the grayscale points based on the desired gamma. From run to run, you will see the actual Y of 100% - and hence the Y targets for all points - vary slightly due to meter and display repeatability. Grayscale dE is computed from the differences between actual and target luminance and between the actual and target color of gray for each measurement point.
Right. Thankyou both . I had an "aha!" moment last night when I realised, these are controlled by the options "Workflow advanced options"/"Use measured Black level" or [fixed value eg 0], and "Use measured Black level" or [fixed value eg 100] [nits]. And this is why it always reads white first, isn't it! To get the value of Y for 100%, and then calculate the scales. Ok!

So I think what I was asking for earlier - which I realise now I don't need - is this. Taken with "Use black=0, and white=100".


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Hi, software calculated the Grayscale target luminance per grayscale step based to your black and 100% white reading. This is why the targets or Y are slight different per each measurement run.

The xy per each grayscale point is fixed from your D65 White point selection, the Y is changing. When you look a CIE Chart (2D) you see the 2 dimensions of the color, the third dimension (Y, luminance) is the third dimension.

Change your RGB balance chart scale to +-20, you have +-6 now which is increasing the difference meter is measuring. Your display/meter seems stable for any test.

To see your meter color/luminance repeatability/accuracy see there.
Thanks, that looks like something for my shopping list! I can't load custom workflows on my Home Enthusiast licence though unless Spectracal agree to enable it, I think?

I think I have managed to pin down what's happening with several different inputs and signal sources, and the "expand to PC levels" option, once I had set a black target of 0. I could see that the measured value for white changed (without changing anything on the TV) from 94 with the right settings to 75-ish with the wrong settings. Will post later.
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post #4570 of 4666 Old 01-08-2018, 01:38 PM
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Right. Thankyou both . I had an "aha!" moment last night when I realised, these are controlled by the options "Workflow advanced options"/"Use measured Black level" or [fixed value eg 0], and "Use measured Black level" or [fixed value eg 100] [nits]. And this is why it always reads white first, isn't it! To get the value of Y for 100%, and then calculate the scales. Ok!

So I think what I was asking for earlier - which I realise now I don't need - is this. Taken with "Use black=0, and white=100".




Thanks, that looks like something for my shopping list! I can't load custom workflows on my Home Enthusiast licence though unless Spectracal agree to enable it, I think?

I think I have managed to pin down what's happening with several different inputs and signal sources, and the "expand to PC levels" option, once I had set a black target of 0. I could see that the measured value for white changed (without changing anything on the TV) from 94 with the right settings to 75-ish with the wrong settings. Will post later.
By Jove, I think he's getting it!

It's Design Mode you have to have enabled - for free - by Spectracal. But it's been so long since I specifically used it that I don't remember if it's necessary in order to use custom workflows.

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post #4571 of 4666 Old 01-08-2018, 05:10 PM
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I can't load custom workflows on my Home Enthusiast licence though unless Spectracal agree to enable it, I think?
From CalMAN 2017 R2 release, design mode has been disabled by default for all CalMAN Enthusiast users.

When any home user (only) wants it, it will be provided a free design mode add-on license, send email to SpectraCal asking for that, you can see there why it's been disabled by default: CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion

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post #4572 of 4666 Old 01-08-2018, 06:04 PM
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By Jove, I think he's getting it!

It's Design Mode you have to have enabled - for free - by Spectracal. But it's been so long since I specifically used it that I don't remember if it's necessary in order to use custom workflows.
Thanks. Getting it, slowly.

Results of readings attached. All done in Movie mode (shared settings across all inputs) with Backlight=4, Bright=44, Contrast=86.
The "Good/working" (I think) setups are B, D, E, F, G, H and K.
I am thinking this validates that MobileForge in setup H is ok to use?
Having said that setups B/D are very convenient. Are there not rounding errors between patterns between the two luminance ranges though? Only the 45% pattern matches between both sets.

What I mean is that if you wanted 0%, 5%, etc all the way up to 100%: for normal video 16-235, not a single value is a whole number except 16 and 235, all the others are being rounded up or down.
But for 0-255, 40%=102 exactly, 60%=153 exactly, 80%=204 exactly. as well as 0 and 255 of course.
Does this mean that the 0-255 scale is easier to output and more accurate to calibrate to?
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post #4573 of 4666 Old 01-08-2018, 06:22 PM
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Thanks. Getting it, slowly.

Results of readings attached. All done in Movie mode (shared settings across all inputs) with Backlight=4, Bright=44, Contrast=86.
The "Good/working" (I think) setups are B, D, E, F, G, H and K.
I am thinking this validates that MobileForge in setup H is ok to use?
Having said that setups B/D are very convenient. Are there not rounding errors between patterns between the two luminance ranges though? Only the 45% pattern matches between both sets.

What I mean is that if you wanted 0%, 5%, etc all the way up to 100%: for normal video 16-235, not a single value is a whole number except 16 and 235, all the others are being rounded up or down.
But for 0-255, 40%=102 exactly, 60%=153 exactly, 80%=204 exactly. as well as 0 and 255 of course.
Does this mean that the 0-255 scale is easier to output and more accurate to calibrate to?
It means that CalMAN and other software programs are putting out their patterns in RGB triplets. For the patterns to be output in YCbCr, mathematical transforms have to be done. So there is always the possibility of rounding errors. In addition, the output device many times puts its own stamp on what is being output (such as Black at 15 instead of 16 and White at 234 instead of 235).
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post #4574 of 4666 Old 01-10-2018, 04:48 AM
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Thanks. Getting it, slowly.

Results of readings attached. All done in Movie mode (shared settings across all inputs) with Backlight=4, Bright=44, Contrast=86.
The "Good/working" (I think) setups are B, D, E, F, G, H and K.
I am thinking this validates that MobileForge in setup H is ok to use?
Having said that setups B/D are very convenient. Are there not rounding errors between patterns between the two luminance ranges though? Only the 45% pattern matches between both sets.

What I mean is that if you wanted 0%, 5%, etc all the way up to 100%: for normal video 16-235, not a single value is a whole number except 16 and 235, all the others are being rounded up or down.
But for 0-255, 40%=102 exactly, 60%=153 exactly, 80%=204 exactly. as well as 0 and 255 of course.
Does this mean that the 0-255 scale is easier to output and more accurate to calibrate to?
AVSHD from USB/AVCHD format from your player (which player do you have?) matching their black/white level and the xy of White also.

You have to use that as reference.

Also you will need to compare gamma tracking and some color gamut measurements also, to get a better idea of what is happening between the pattern generation options you are using.
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AVSHD from USB/AVCHD format from your player (which player do you have?) matching their black/white level and the xy of White also.

You have to use that as reference.
Understood and thankyou. I have a Samsung K8500. But, options B and D (PC connected via DisplayPort to HDMI cable to TV) with Calman's Pattern windows do seem a lot more convenient, since they allow the settings of Contrast/Brightness.

Perhaps I should force the Samsung to RGB output mode, and compare that with option B.

Quote:
Also you will need to compare gamma tracking and some color gamut measurements also, to get a better idea of what is happening between the pattern generation options you are using.
I need a bigger spreadsheet!

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post #4576 of 4666 Old 01-10-2018, 12:59 PM
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Understood and thankyou. I have a Samsung K8500. But, options B and D (PC connected via DisplayPort to HDMI cable to TV) with Calman's Pattern windows do seem a lot more convenient, since they allow the settings of Contrast/Brightness.

Perhaps I should force the Samsung to RGB output mode, and compare that with option B.

I need a bigger spreadsheet!
Since you have the Samsung K8500, it has bit-perfect output only with YCbCr colorspace, this has been tested using a signal analyser, to see the digital errors of RGB-Video (coming from colorspace conersions, any player has such errors with RGB-Video, some have more or less) see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post42234281

For that comparison, use still images of CalMAN workflow you are using, enter some fixed scalling to charts, its easier to compare RGB balance/gamma with a fixed scale or chart range.
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post #4577 of 4666 Old 01-13-2018, 10:03 AM
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The automation is fine, when you have verified that you have agreement, there a lot of times where there mismatching, because at the end of the day, you need to have accurate colors from the source you are using to playback the movies, not from an application.
Ted, when one finds that there is a mismatch, are there any steps that can be taken to get agreement between the automated patterns and manual patterns?
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post #4578 of 4666 Old 01-15-2018, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
Ted, when one finds that there is a mismatch, are there any steps that can be taken to get agreement between the automated patterns and manual patterns?
Hi, when there is a mismatch, you will start looking your player setting you are using to playback the AVSHD, most of the times Blu-ray players have bit-perfect output when you are using YCbCr colorspace output, you set that colorspace and see if there any custom enhancement mode in the player which is affecting the player output. When you have this confirmed, that the player settings are ok, you are looking to the PC setting (usually it's the first option for patch generation users prefer, becasue they don't know that with wrong patch generation, they haven't performed an accurate patch generation) is to use a pc or notebook HDMI output as extended desktop. You have to check the VGA settings, disable any enhancement, reset the windows VCGT (video card gamma table), remove any ICC, some video chipsets can have accurate RGB output with proper configuration.

The problem is that stand-alone players can have accurate YCbCr output while PC's can have accurate RGB output, so some TV's they are handling differently the signal when you send RGB or YCbCr, usually they convert the incoming RGB signal to YCbCr for processing, there other TV's which handle differently the 60p from 24p input, all these require some testing to find out what is happening.

When it's impossible to match the 2 patch generation solutions, then the best idea is to use the patterns from your actual movie playback source. (or buy an external pattern generation which is accurate at YCbCr output, to match the accurate output of a player with YCbCr colorspace output)

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post #4579 of 4666 Old 01-18-2018, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, when there is a mismatch, you will start looking your player setting you are using to playback the AVSHD, most of the times Blu-ray players have bit-perfect output when you are using YCbCr colorspace output, you set that colorspace and see if there any custom enhancement mode in the player which is affecting the player output. When you have this confirmed, that the player settings are ok, you are looking to the PC setting (usually it's the first option for patch generation users prefer, becasue they don't know that with wrong patch generation, they haven't performed an accurate patch generation) is to use a pc or notebook HDMI output as extended desktop. You have to check the VGA settings, disable any enhancement, reset the windows VCGT (video card gamma table), remove any ICC, some video chipsets can have accurate RGB output with proper configuration.

The problem is that stand-alone players can have accurate YCbCr output while PC's can have accurate RGB output, so some TV's they are handling differently the signal when you send RGB or YCbCr, usually they convert the incoming RGB signal to YCbCr for processing, there other TV's which handle differently the 60p from 24p input, all these require some testing to find out what is happening.

When it's impossible to match the 2 patch generation solutions, then the best idea is to use the patterns from your actual movie playback source. (or buy an external pattern generation which is accurate at YCbCr output, to match the accurate output of a player with YCbCr colorspace output)
Thanks for this, Ted. Very helpful. I did a series of tests. I have an Epson projector and a Nvidia Shield TV.
I found that my gray scale measures were nearly identical between the Nvidia and my laptop.
But primary and secondary colors / saturation sweeps are significantly off. The xy errors are identical. All the errors are from luminance with Red and Blue much too bright and green far too low.

If I put the Nvidia into RGB mode (limited not full range), then the colors between the laptop and Nvidia are nearly identical.

So what you say above about YCbCr vs. RGB is true in my case. I made sure to reset the windows VCGT and removed the default ICC. I tried many different settings on my laptop video card as well. But no luck.

Anything else I can try?
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Last edited by jwhn; 01-18-2018 at 12:53 AM.
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post #4580 of 4666 Old 01-18-2018, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
Thanks for this, Ted. Very helpful. I did a series of tests. I have an Epson projector and a Nvidia Shield TV.
I found that my gray scale measures were nearly identical between the Nvidia and my laptop.
But primary and secondary colors / saturation sweeps are significantly off. The xy errors are identical. All the errors are from luminance with Red and Blue much too bright and green far too low.

If I put the Nvidia into RGB mode (limited not full range), then the colors between the laptop and Nvidia are nearly identical.

So what you say above about YCbCr vs. RGB is true in my case. I made sure to reset the windows VCGT and removed the default ICC. I tried many different settings on my laptop video card as well. But no luck.

Anything else I can try?
Hi, the patterns of AVSHD (grayscale/gamut) from the source you are using to watch your movies have to match with the patch generation solution you are trying to use. If this is not happening then you will have to skip the auto-patch software generation and use the manual way with AVSHD.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
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post #4581 of 4666 Old 01-18-2018, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, the patterns of AVSHD (grayscale/gamut) from the source you are using to watch your movies have to match with the patch generation solution you are trying to use. If this is not happening then you will have to skip the auto-patch software generation and use the manual way with AVSHD.
Understood. That is what I've been doing. I also bought your disk a few months ago and have been using that. Works great. But now I am trying to find a way to get the automatic patterns to work.

My projector input menu will show either "Component" or "RGB-Video". If there were a way to have my laptop send "Component" it might work. Is there any way you know of to force my laptop to send Component vs. RGB-Video?
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post #4582 of 4666 Old 01-18-2018, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
Understood. That is what I've been doing. I also bought your disk a few months ago and have been using that. Works great. But now I am trying to find a way to get the automatic patterns to work.

My projector input menu will show either "Component" or "RGB-Video". If there were a way to have my laptop send "Component" it might work. Is there any way you know of to force my laptop to send Component vs. RGB-Video?
The problem is that notebook's can do very bad conversion when they output YCbCr, because they need specific 3x3 matrix to convert RGB-Video to REC.709 YCbCr.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The problem is that notebook's can do very bad conversion when they output YCbCr, because they need specific 3x3 matrix to convert RGB-Video to REC.709 YCbCr.
Okay, got it. I guess I can at least use automatic patterns for gray scale and gamma and then switch to manual patterns for CMS.

Thanks for the help.
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post #4584 of 4666 Old 01-18-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
Okay, got it. I guess I can at least use automatic patterns for gray scale and gamma and then switch to manual patterns for CMS.

Thanks for the help.
If you see that you have agreement in gamma tracking and black/white levels are matching only.

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you see that you have agreement in gamma tracking and black/white levels are matching only.
Yes, that is what I am seeing.
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post #4586 of 4666 Old 01-19-2018, 06:04 PM
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Something I don't understand. If I'm running this disc from a media player, aren't I only calibrating that individual source? Like I want to calibrate each source but if im only calibrating the source where the media is located... how is it possible to calibrate the others?

In case that didn't make sense, my cable runs on a "Custom" setting, and my PS4 and XBox One S, run on their own "Gaming" profiles, but again, if the disc is only running on my PS4 with my x900e in "Gaming" mode, it won't also apply to "Custom".

I'm assuming of course, that the calibration is linked to each specific HDMI port, and perhaps, that's where I'm mistaken?

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post #4587 of 4666 Old 01-23-2018, 11:59 AM
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Something I don't understand. If I'm running this disc from a media player, aren't I only calibrating that individual source? Like I want to calibrate each source but if im only calibrating the source where the media is located... how is it possible to calibrate the others?

In case that didn't make sense, my cable runs on a "Custom" setting, and my PS4 and XBox One S, run on their own "Gaming" profiles, but again, if the disc is only running on my PS4 with my x900e in "Gaming" mode, it won't also apply to "Custom".

I'm assuming of course, that the calibration is linked to each specific HDMI port, and perhaps, that's where I'm mistaken?
Does this help?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...revceiver.html
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post #4588 of 4666 Old 01-23-2018, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sparks_mandrill View Post
If I'm running this disc from a media player, aren't I only calibrating that individual source? Like I want to calibrate each source but if im only calibrating the source where the media is located... how is it possible to calibrate the others?
Technically there can be minor (but often inconsequential) image differences whenever you switch between TV or AVR inputs, source devices, or even the movies themselves. In professional TV/movie production one way to get around such problems is to embed a calibration image at the beginning (or end) of each video itself. Now that most TV/movie/video production is done digitally the differences as we move from device to device in the production chain is minimal however we still need to worry about big differences from camera to camera, white balance to white balance, and video monitor to video monitor.

HBO broadcasts a useful calibration image once a month and I keep a short segment of it permanently on my DVR. By calibrating my setup to this image I know that whenever I watch from that particular source [my Comcast DVR, tuned to HBO] I am seeing the image as faithfully as possible. THX certified DVD/BD also have an embedded version of these test patterns and historically Sony Pictures BD movie discs have a secret way to access such patterns by typing in the word "Sony" [as on a telephone keypad: 7,6,6,9, (then sometimes also "Enter/Select"] on the movie's main menu screen].

I couldn't find a Youtube video showing how to access these hidden test images so I just made one:
Here's also a link to HBO's 2018 schedule for when they broadcast their color bars or "Transmission Test".
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post #4589 of 4666 Old 01-24-2018, 03:47 PM
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Thanks for creating that youtube video
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post #4590 of 4666 Old 01-24-2018, 03:52 PM
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Anyone know if the SONY disc trick works on a UHD disc and if so are the patterns 4K and HDR? I figure there have to be a million Sony X800 owners with freebie discs like Spiderman: Homecoming lying around to test.

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