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post #7111 of 7161 Old 01-14-2020, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dianebrat View Post
The player-led format Dolby implemented for the underpowered Sony TV's is referred to as "profile 5" if you want to look deeper.
It is not at all related to the older LG's not being able to handle [email protected]

Now we are getting very spread out on this discussion. I 100% understand there is a different way Dolby Vision is processed for the Sony TV's that had to offload said processing to the player/streaming device. But in terms of the way Dolby Vision content is actually mastered, I was specifically referring to the comments regarding DV being 8bit RGB in the past and then being switched to 12bit 422 at some later time, which was being implied was due solely to the Sony TV's lack of processing power. I have not found any such information. And as @P40L0 posted above, the Dolby Vision white paper mentions nothing about being mastered at 8bit RGB.
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post #7112 of 7161 Old 01-14-2020, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by P40L0 View Post
I think you're a bit confused...
This is the official White Paper of Dolby Vision technology directly from Dolby official website: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...hite-paper.pdf

As you can read from this passage:
Yes. And Dolby uses 12 bits. The normal Dolby Vision sends it in an 8 bit wrapper. But the result is 12 bit DV. Because the extra info sent with the 12 bit RGB signal allows it to be 12 bit DV. It's been this way for years now.
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post #7113 of 7161 Old 01-14-2020, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Now we are getting very spread out on this discussion. I 100% understand there is a different way Dolby Vision is processed for the Sony TV's that had to offload said processing to the player/streaming device. But in terms of the way Dolby Vision content is actually mastered, I was specifically referring to the comments regarding DV being 8bit RGB in the past and then being switched to 12bit 422 at some later time, which was being implied was due solely to the Sony TV's lack of processing power. I have not found any such information. And as @P40L0 posted above, the Dolby Vision white paper mentions nothing about being mastered at 8bit RGB.
I never said it was mastered in 8bit. DOlby Vision is 12 bit. It's just that DV uses 8 bit RGB and extra info with the transport signal to get to the 12 bits at the display. It's been this way for years now. It's nothing new. What's newer is DV sending a 422 12 bit signal.

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post #7114 of 7161 Old 01-14-2020, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Yes. And Dolby uses 12 bits. The normal Dolby Vision sends it in an 8 bit wrapper. But the result is 12 bit DV. Because the extra info sent with the 12 bit RGB signal allows it to be 12 bit DV. It's been this way for years now.
This is simply not true as of today.
The standard is Native 12-bit, all current DV contents are native 12-bit and were created with 12-bit in mind starting with pre-production pipelines.
There's no mention of 8-bit + added bits or Full RGB or 444 etc.

4:2:2 12-bit Dolby Vision + 60hz + low latency is the latest and best format on current high end displays.
All other implementations are just legacy.
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post #7115 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 07:00 AM
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Wanted to confirm something. I know that for HDR/DV movie modes, the settings on the C9 we are supposed to max out OLED Light and contrast Levels, then HDR uses what it needs from those levels. If I am playing an HDR game on Xbox One X, and the C9 is in the HDR Game mode, should those values also be maxed out and the game will do the same thing; use how ever much of the OLED Light and Contrast it needs? If they are supposed to be maxed in HDR Game mode, then I would need to adjust each games HDR video settings to be correct after that, right? Like adjust the 3 box logos, etc for HDR brightness in that game?
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post #7116 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NismoZ View Post
Wanted to confirm something. I know that for HDR/DV movie modes, the settings on the C9 we are supposed to max out OLED Light and contrast Levels, then HDR uses what it needs from those levels. If I am playing an HDR game on Xbox One X, and the C9 is in the HDR Game mode, should those values also be maxed out and the game will do the same thing; use how ever much of the OLED Light and Contrast it needs? If they are supposed to be maxed in HDR Game mode, then I would need to adjust each games HDR video settings to be correct after that, right? Like adjust the 3 box logos, etc for HDR brightness in that game?
Correct, hdr/dv settings (oled light and contrast) in any mode on the C9 should be maxed.

All adjustments should be made in the in game menu if available.

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post #7117 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrocker23 View Post
Correct, hdr/dv settings (oled light and contrast) in any mode on the C9 should be maxed.

All adjustments should be made in the in game menu if available.

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Not true.
DV presets on LG OLED must have OLED Light value at 50 (default) to look correct, which will be equal to OLED Light 100 of HDR modes.
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post #7118 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by P40L0 View Post
Not true.

DV presets on LG OLED must have OLED Light value at 50 (default) to look correct, which will be equal to OLED Light 100 of HDR modes.
The C9 stays at 100 for Dolby Vision which is the equivalent of 50 on prior year models.

This has been known since the C9 series came out.

If you need confirmation, videos by Vincent teoh, Donnie Darko and rtings will tell you this.

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post #7119 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrocker23 View Post
The C9 stays at 100 for Dolby Vision which is the equivalent of 50 on prior year models.

This has been known since the C9 series came out.

If you need confirmation, videos by Vincent teoh, Donnie Darko and rtings will tell you this.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Yes, this is correct for the C9, it changed for that model.
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post #7120 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by NismoZ View Post
Yes, this is correct for the C9, it changed for that model.
Didn't read carefully you were talking about 9 series.
My bad, I apologize.
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post #7121 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by P40L0 View Post
This is simply not true as of today.
The standard is Native 12-bit, all current DV contents are native 12-bit and were created with 12-bit in mind starting with pre-production pipelines.
There's no mention of 8-bit + added bits or Full RGB or 444 etc.

4:2:2 12-bit Dolby Vision + 60hz + low latency is the latest and best format on current high end displays.
All other implementations are just legacy.
Yes> DV is 12 bit and has always been 12 bit. Even years ago or while using the RGB 8 bit method, The end result picturewise is identical, whether sending RGB or 422. Assuming a display device can handle it properly.

But if that is truly the current standard then devices like the ATV 4K should start using it. The ATV 4K is capable of both ways. But My ATv 4K sends RGB even though my set is perfectly capable of handling DV at 422 12 bit.
And all my other DV devices, Except Xbox, still send RGB. I know my Phillips UHD BD player was never updated for low latency DV. But I thought the FireTV 4K stick was capable of it. As well as the Shield TV Pro. But those devices are also sending RGB for DV.

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post #7122 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 03:06 PM
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In 2017 when the first Dolby Vision titles first came out, my Oppo 203 was sending 12 bit 422 to my LG OLED *shrugs*
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post #7123 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
In 2017 when the first Dolby Vision titles first came out, my Oppo 203 was sending 12 bit 422 to my LG OLED *shrugs*
I think the Oppo was the first source device that allowed low Latency DV.
I know initially when I got my TCL TV it would only work with RGB DV. And I could not get DV from the XBox. But soon after TCL updated their sets to work with low Latency DV. And I was able to get DV from my Xbox with 422 DV.

I remember people being pissed with Sony DV sets since low Latency DV was all that could be used with it. So they were not happy about most devices initially not being able to output low latency DV. The Oppo and the ATV 4K were the first devices to add it. If I remember correctly. I know it was never added to my Philips DV player. And of course I had sold my Oppo player in early 2017. Since at the time I didn't have a DV player. And I had picked up a Sony X800 in March 2017, since I had only been watching HDR10 since 2015. Since the 2015 Sony UHD Tv I have was only HLG and HDR10 capable. Then in 2018 I got the TCL DV 6 Series.

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post #7124 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I think the Oppo was the first source device that allowed low Latency DV.
I know initially when I got my TCL TV it would only work with RGB DV. And I could not get DV from the XBox. But soon after TCL updated their sets to work with low Latency DV. And I was able to get DV from my Xbox with 422 DV.
Oppo was the first device to allow DV from UHD Bluray, period. Sony support for DV wasn't even on the radar at that time (those updates weren't rolled out til 2018). So you're saying the very first DV Bluray titles released were mastered to a format not even required for almost another year?
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post #7125 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Oppo was the first device to allow DV from UHD Bluray, period. Sony support for DV wasn't even on the radar at that time (those updates weren't rolled out til 2018). So you're saying the very first DV Bluray titles released were mastered to a format not even required for almost another year?
???
No. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the mastering. Absolutely nothing. It is only how the 12 bit DV video gets from the source device to the TV. Oppo, like other DV source devices, initially output the RGB method. Which again, still results in 12 bit DV at the display. I think the Oppo was the first DV disc player to add the Low Latency DV method. And the ATV 4k was the first DV streamer to add low latency DV.

Sony didn't even have a DV player until the x700 came out. Which I avoided. Since best buy screwed up majorly with my initial DV UHD BD player order, in 2018. BestBuy gave me the option to get any of their DV players at the time, for only $72, because of their screwups with my order.

Which was a short list of players at the time. So I chose the Philips DV player. Since it would auto switch between DV, HDR10, and SDR. Which the Sony players are incapable of doing. And the LG player was another option. But it had some other issue. I can't remember what. But it was the reason I also avoided the LG DV player at the time.

Of course if I had never sold my Oppo in 2017, I could have used that for DV UHD BD playback. Plus DV UHD streaming from ripped UHD BDs.
But at the time ripping UHD BDs was not possible, and I didn't think I would get a DV player anytime soon.

Of course now I've ripped around 250 UHD BDs, but I can only view them in HDR10. I use the actual discs to watch my DV UHD BDs. To be able to watch them in DV. Otherwise I would just stream the HDR10 version.
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post #7126 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 03:46 PM
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Hello guys and happy new year, i want to ask if anyone tried the dolby atmos app for headphones for xbox one x and if its any good compared to real dolby experience
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post #7127 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
No. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the mastering. Absolutely nothing. It is only how the 12 bit DV video gets from the source device to the TV. Oppo, like other DV source devices, initially output the RGB method. Which again, still results in 12 bit DV at the display.
That's what I was trying to address. My Oppo never output RGB when watching a DV UHD Bluray. Output from the player was 12bit 422. And this was before the low latency update.
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post #7128 of 7161 Old 01-15-2020, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
That's what I was trying to address. My Oppo never output RGB when watching a DV UHD Bluray. Output from the player was 12bit 422. And this was before the low latency update.
Yeah, and all DV contents are produced and mastered at High Dynamic Range (HDR) + Dolby Dynamic Tone Mapping @ 12-bit Color Depth.
Displaying them at 8-bit, even if in FullRGB, is just a downconversion in SDR.
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post #7129 of 7161 Old 01-16-2020, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by P40L0 View Post
Yeah, and all DV contents are produced and mastered at High Dynamic Range (HDR) + Dolby Dynamic Tone Mapping @ 12-bit Color Depth.
Displaying them at 8-bit, even if in FullRGB, is just a downconversion in SDR.
I think you guys are completely missing everything aaronwt is saying. He is NOT saying that DV is displayed at 8bit. He is NOT saying that DV is mastered at 8bit. He is saying that DV has the capability to be sent to the display wrapped in an 8bit stream. That means the full 12bit DV is chopped up into 8bit packets, transmitted, then reassembled at the TV into 12bit before it is sent to the screen to be displayed. No downconversion involved, full fidelity preserved.

Spending a few minutes researching found this:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...hite-paper.pdf

"Dolby Vision doesn’t require new codecs—it can be delivered with industry-standard
HEVC and AVC codecs. The full Dolby Vision signal can be encoded, with pre-processing,
into either a single HEVC Main-10 stream or into two AVC or HEVC layers with lower bit
depth, plus metadata, making it well-suited to a wide range of televisions, personal
computers, and mobile devices. The client uses the data to reconstruct and play back
the full signal, using existing video decoders"

Dolby says above that the full Dolby Vision stream can be encoded into lower bit depth streams and then reconstructed into the full signal. 8bit would qualify as lower bit depth. To get more technical than the generalized statement above, we can look here:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf

See Section 2.1:

Dolby Vision bitstream Representative Dolby Vision BL/EL codec
profile ID bitstream profile string

4 dvhe.04 10-bit HEVC
5 dvhe.05 10-bit HEVC
7 dvhe.07 10-bit HEVC
8 dvhe.08 10-bit HEVC
9 dvav.09 8-bit AVC

This seems to indicate that profile 9, dvav.09 is Dolby Vision in an 8-bit container, as aaronwt keeps saying. If we look at Roku device capability, here:

https://developer.roku.com/en-ca/doc...s/streaming.md

under Supported video codecs, it shows Dolby Vision: dvav.09 and Dolby Vision: dvhe.05. This seems to indicate that the Rokus that support DV handle profile 9 and profile 5. This means DV through an 8-bit container and DV through a 10-bit container.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding things, Dolbys technical papers support what aaronwt is saying.
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post #7130 of 7161 Old 01-16-2020, 10:16 AM
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post #7131 of 7161 Old 01-16-2020, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
I think you guys are completely missing everything aaronwt is saying. He is NOT saying that DV is displayed at 8bit. He is NOT saying that DV is mastered at 8bit. He is saying that DV has the capability to be sent to the display wrapped in an 8bit stream. That means the full 12bit DV is chopped up into 8bit packets, transmitted, then reassembled at the TV into 12bit before it is sent to the screen to be displayed. No downconversion involved, full fidelity preserved.

Spending a few minutes researching found this:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...hite-paper.pdf

"Dolby Vision doesn’t require new codecs—it can be delivered with industry-standard
HEVC and AVC codecs. The full Dolby Vision signal can be encoded, with pre-processing,
into either a single HEVC Main-10 stream or into two AVC or HEVC layers with lower bit
depth, plus metadata, making it well-suited to a wide range of televisions, personal
computers, and mobile devices. The client uses the data to reconstruct and play back
the full signal, using existing video decoders"

Dolby says above that the full Dolby Vision stream can be encoded into lower bit depth streams and then reconstructed into the full signal. 8bit would qualify as lower bit depth. To get more technical than the generalized statement above, we can look here:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf

See Section 2.1:

Dolby Vision bitstream Representative Dolby Vision BL/EL codec
profile ID bitstream profile string

4 dvhe.04 10-bit HEVC
5 dvhe.05 10-bit HEVC
7 dvhe.07 10-bit HEVC
8 dvhe.08 10-bit HEVC
9 dvav.09 8-bit AVC

This seems to indicate that profile 9, dvav.09 is Dolby Vision in an 8-bit container, as aaronwt keeps saying. If we look at Roku device capability, here:

https://developer.roku.com/en-ca/doc...s/streaming.md

under Supported video codecs, it shows Dolby Vision: dvav.09 and Dolby Vision: dvhe.05. This seems to indicate that the Rokus that support DV handle profile 9 and profile 5. This means DV through an 8-bit container and DV through a 10-bit container.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding things, Dolbys technical papers support what aaronwt is saying.
Sure, it may be a capability for legacy equipment, but it does not support the implication of "422 12-bit low latency is the half hassed DV; the 8-bit RGB one is the full DV variant", it still doesn't make sense...

As the already posted White Paper explicitly says, all DV pipeline is meant to be 12-bit, and the best way to display it currently is using a reduced chroma subsampling from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 on HDMI 2.0b and Native 4K contents at 60hz.

On newest HDMI 2.1 TVs, it is theoretically possible to support 4:4:4 HDR or DV at 12-bit + Native 4K at 60hz, but contents mastered that way do not still exist, and all TVs, even the top tier ones, are still 10-bit panels.
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post #7132 of 7161 Old 01-16-2020, 10:41 AM
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Sure, it may be a capability for legacy equipment, but it does not support the implication of "422 12-bit low latency is the half hassed DV; the 8-bit RGB one is the full DV variant", it still doesn't make sense...
From the way I read the information in the Dolbys PDFs, and then posted above, there is no "half-assed" DV. DV is DV, period. How it is transmitted to the TV will vary depending on which profile is used, but in the end the full DV video ends up on the screen and is the exact same no matter which method of transmitting the data is used. That's what I got out of it.
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post #7133 of 7161 Old 01-16-2020, 10:58 AM
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From the way I read the information in the Dolbys PDFs, and then posted above, there is no "half-assed" DV. DV is DV, period. How it is transmitted to the TV will vary depending on which profile is used, but in the end the full DV video ends up on the screen and is the exact same no matter which method of transmitting the data is used. That's what I got out of it.
I recall when the firmware update for the Sony 930 and 940 models were released, they did not have full Dolby Vision support for "external devices". Dolby Vision was enabled for their onboard apps such as Netflix.I remember a big uproar in the forums for these two displays.

Apple and Oppo later released firmware for their devices to allow for Dolby Vision to be streamed using Sony Displays.

Within the Oppo 203/205 settings, there is a "Player Led" and "TV-Led" adjustment for content with Dolby Vision that I believe was related to how Sony Displays handled DV.

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post #7134 of 7161 Old 01-16-2020, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by groove93 View Post
Within the Oppo 203/205 settings, there is a "Player Led" and "TV-Led" adjustment for content with Dolby Vision that I believe was related to how Sony Displays handled DV.
The specs seem to allow for different types of transmission based on the capabilities of the display and the source device. While it doesn't specifically call out player-led and tv-led versions of DV, it's reasonable to assume the different profiles are to account for things like this, in an attempt to get DV on a wide variety of devices. It's nice having the Dolby technical documents to read through but it would also be nice to have a big-picture version that explains the technical implications and why they were done that way, instead of having to infer.

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post #7135 of 7161 Old 01-16-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
From the way I read the information in the Dolbys PDFs, and then posted above, there is no "half-assed" DV. DV is DV, period. How it is transmitted to the TV will vary depending on which profile is used, but in the end the full DV video ends up on the screen and is the exact same no matter which method of transmitting the data is used. That's what I got out of it.

The "half-assed" statement was made by aaron. That's where all of this started. My responses were meant to show that sending 12bit 422 from the playback device is definitely not "half-assed".


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I thought DV was RGB 8bit? and then the extra four bits are sent along with the 8 bit signal? Dolby Vision was designed to be able to go over HDMi 1.4.
The half assed DV option, low Latency, sends out 422 at 12 bit. While devices with Full DV capabilities send an 8 bit RGB signal to the TV.
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Full reference Dolby Vision should be 8 bit rgb. And the extra bits are extracted to make it 12 bit.
This is the version of DV that came out years ago. That was also designed to be able to run on HDMI 1.4.

The newer 422, 12 bit version initially came out because of Sony's half assed TVs, that could not process the normal version of Dolby Vision. So the device sending the DV signal has to do more of the processing instead of the TV.
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post #7136 of 7161 Old 01-17-2020, 10:15 AM
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The "half-assed" statement was made by aaron. That's where all of this started. My responses were meant to show that sending 12bit 422 from the playback device is definitely not "half-assed".
I was agreeing with you, based on my admittedly limited understanding from reading Dolbys technical info on DV. I see where aaronwt is coming from tho. It's kind of a shame that a special mode had to be put in for one set of TV's.

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post #7137 of 7161 Old 01-17-2020, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
The "half-assed" statement was made by aaron. That's where all of this started. My responses were meant to show that sending 12bit 422 from the playback device is definitely not "half-assed".
My "half-assed" reference was me thinking about Sony cheaping out on their DV implementation. Where their DV TVs would not initially work with any DV devices. And was different than what other DV TVs were using.
Ok
:eye roll:
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post #7138 of 7161 Old 01-17-2020, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
The "half-assed" statement was made by aaron. That's where all of this started. My responses were meant to show that sending 12bit 422 from the playback device is definitely not "half-assed".
My "half-assed" reference was me thinking about Sony cheaping out on their DV implementation. Where their DV TVs would not initially work with any DV devices. And was different than what other DV TVs were using.

And I thought what I had read had mentioned that the Sony implementation was the low Latency version. Which I thought I had read was the 422 12 bit version. Since everything I read about DV years ago mentioned it being sent in an 8 bit RGB signal where the TV put everything back together to create the 12 bit video. And when I first got a DV TV that was what was sent from every device I had with DV. Until it was updated with the low latency capability, which is what the Xbox uses. And currently my Xbox is still the only DV device I have that is sending 422 12 bit. With everything else I have using the RGB 8 bit method of getting the 12 bit DV video.

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post #7139 of 7161 Old 01-17-2020, 12:17 PM
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Ok
:eye roll:
So you don't think Sony's DV implementation isn't half assed? SOny cheaped out big time by not paying to include the chips that other TVs included for DV capability. I definitely remember a bunch of Sony owners being pissed when they found out that their SOny DV set wasn't as capable as other DV sets.

And don't get me started on Sony's DV players. Where you need to manually turn DV on and off. Yet all other DV players can automatically switch between DV, HDR10, and SDR. I avoided the SOny DV players because of that.

Although I did almost buy a Sony Z9D. But they wouldn't let me use my 10% off coupon on the open box unit. So in the end it worked out better for me. I figured I would get the less expensive set and then upgrade again in a couple of year. So now I need to decide if I will upgrade later this year or just wait another year.
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post #7140 of 7161 Old 01-17-2020, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Ok
:eye roll:
So you don't think Sony's DV implementation isn't half assed? SOny cheaped out big time by not paying to include the chips that other TVs included for DV capability. I definitely remember a bunch of Sony owners being pissed when they found out that their SOny DV set wasn't as capable as other DV sets.
No. I don't. It works right? So I think people should be happy they have functional DV rather than Sony having done nothing. Which they could have.

Unfortunately people in this hobby get bent out of shape about the silliest things.

And I'm speaking as one of those Sony owners.
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