A Desperate Cry For Atmos Help..come laugh at my pain! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 6Likes
  • 1 Post By DaverJ
  • 1 Post By Foxbat121
  • 3 Post By Isaac Gaillard
  • 1 Post By Foxbat121
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 02-16-2019, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
HeadRusch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,378
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Exclamation A Desperate Cry For Atmos Help..come laugh at my pain!

Yep, cry for help time.

I've been a 5.1 guy for ages. Aged-in Paradigm Speakers all the way around (monitor 9's and Atoms, all speakers now 28 years old and sounding amazing). Now obviously I've had 7.1 abilities for ages, and now Atmos for a few years that I've basically ignored.
I've gone 7.1...then went promptly back to 5.1 Why? I hate the fact that sounds pretty much stop "beside me" now, and the direct rears are kind of never utilized. But recently I decided to live in the present, and went 7.1 + 2 in the ceiling for Atmos. Huzzah.
And now it's all screwed up.

I'm pretty sure.....I'm just doing this **** wrong.

My 5.1 had my 2 rears behind me and toed-in towards the seating area, speakers were about 3' wider than the seating area and a good 6 feet behind, so I had decent dispersion behind me, it wasn't like I was sitting on top of two tiny speakers with no sound-stage. Movies, surround sound. Games? Surround sound. Pass a car in Forza, car moves behind you. It all sounded correct.

But in 7.1, and indeed now within my 7.1.2 setup (2 Yamaha in-ceilings went into the drop ceiling cuz F-it..why not)......the sound in games and in most 5.1 sources just stops at my side surrounds and.....thats that. I never hear anything behind me. I moved my former 5.1 "surrounds" to where they should be in a 7.1 "rear" configuration, but the sides overpower anything that may or may not be coming from the rears. Everything in games now sounds wrong. It's driving me batty.

So, this is a topic I swear I've probably commented on here 10+ years ago when this sort of thing was front and center in my head but I've forgotten my own lessons What am I screwing up here. Someone school me, please.

The speakers are correctly wired and my Xbox is set to output Bitstream Atmos and the receiver is set to Dolby Atmos processing. I have options to do Atmos Direct, Atmos All Channel Stereo (which just does what it says it does), and I think a mono mode that must restrict the soundstage to the fronts or center channel. Pretty sure it's configured properly in Dolby Atmos mode (which I believe is just Dolby Pro Logic X ish...so I'd expect the rears to come into play even in a matrix situation)....?

I would expect the side surrounds to shut down and let the rears take over when, say, I pass a car in Forza Whatever Edition.....I could break out the SPL meter but I didn't think Audessy did that bad a job during its auto-setup phase (rears were hissing plenty loud when required so....dont think its speaker-balance issues).

Thoughts/Instructions/Mockery all accepted

Xbox Live / PS3 / Steam: HeadRusch1
Keeping the world safe from the evil antics of Bernie Tanaka and Mel Fujitsu since 1986


Last edited by HeadRusch; 02-16-2019 at 09:56 AM.
HeadRusch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 08:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
deveng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,798
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Not sure where to start, lol.

Might not be a bad idea even after audessy, to break out the SP meter and check the the test tones anyways (and to doubly make sure the speakers are wired correctly, as I have on occation swapped a side and rear for example). Then adjust the speaker volume to your liking. Not implying anything with my next comment, but as we age, we lose hearing in the high frequencies earlier, and thus a properly calibrated system may not be a tonally matched calibration for an individuals ears, especially since the surround channals probably are not full range, and the 'surround information' frequency spectrum may be on the higher side (vs the fronts).

Might also try to disconnect the ceiling speakers and just run 7.1 Atmos and decide if you like that. I am a nut for the latest and greatest, and went Atmos over a year ago. I have had a 7.2 setup for years, love DTS-MA, DD-HD, etc, but I think the Atmos (and DTS-X) mixes are more than just adding the height speakers. I needed a new pre-amp to pass through 4K, so that is why I upgraded, but immediately noticed that the Atmos tracts were just 'superior' to the DTS-MA/DD-HD tracts even with a 7.2 setup and no ceiling speakers. Everything was just so much more enveloping (and I must say playing those Atmos trailers is just so much fun, lol).


I decided to go the SVS route and not do ceiling but angled ceiling-wall mount speakers (the physics makes sense), so I have 4 speakers unboxed with a 4 channel power amp, still sitting after a year because I have been too lazy to mount them. I guess I have been impressed enough without the height speakers with Atmos, that I have delayed setting up what will eventually be 7.2.4.

I also usually stick with the native audio signals from the source. At most I let the pre-amp mix a DD/DTS tract to DTS Neural X, as I think my pre-amp does a pretty good job with that up mix.

Stick with it, I think you will find a good balance and remember...……… All around you ………………..

Xbox and PS3 Gamertag = Xerostomia
Wii = I'm too lazy to get the number
deveng is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 08:23 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DaverJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 9,722
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1767 Post(s)
Liked: 4031
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
I moved my former 5.1 "surrounds" to where they should be in a 7.1 "rear" configuration, but the sides overpower anything that may or may not be coming from the rears.
Confused about this statement -- you only have 2 rear speakers, what do you mean the sides are overpowering the rears?
DaverJ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 08:27 AM
Senior Member
 
JohnnyWilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 399
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
Confused about this statement -- you only have 2 rear speakers, what do you mean the sides are overpowering the rears?
It sounds to me like he has 2 speakers positioned by the side of the MLP, and 2 speakers behind. The 2 speakers on the side are drowning out any sound from the rears, giving the impression that the sound field is all in front of him.
JohnnyWilkinson is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 08:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 386
First thing I would do is double check spl from the mlp and make sure the side and rear surrounds are even. I would also measure distance with a laser or tape measure and update audyssey with those settings. If that doesn’t work, try to notch up a half dB at a time the rear surrounds and/or notch down the side surrounds until it feels right to you from the mlp.
m0j0 is online now  
post #6 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
HeadRusch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,378
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Sorry for the confusion, yes JW is correct.

I had my 5.1 setup with its 2 rear surround channels far behind and to the sides of my main listening position.
That's fine for 5.1, but less than ideal for 7.1.



My 5.1 "rear surrounds" became my 7.1 "rears" and are now behind me facing forward as expected to find in your typical 7.1 speaker layout.


I then ran wire and added 2 new speakers to create my "surrounds" in the 7.1 configuration, to work with the rears I refer to above. Those are directly to my sides at ear-level, due to space limitations.

I think I do need to bust out that SPL meter and probably take some heat off the sides and bump the rears......

Thanks everyone for the input.

Xbox Live / PS3 / Steam: HeadRusch1
Keeping the world safe from the evil antics of Bernie Tanaka and Mel Fujitsu since 1986

HeadRusch is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 10:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DaverJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 9,722
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1767 Post(s)
Liked: 4031
Have you tried using DTS Neural upmix instead of Dolby's?

Also, you might want to try listening to surround music that has instruments isolated in all 5 channels to see if the speaker balance sounds right. I like most anything mixed by Steven Wilson as a benchmark, particularly XTC, Jethro Tull, or his solo material. These adjustments seem to carry over the games pretty well. FWIW, my Atmos 5.1.2 setup I have to raise the rear channels a bit to balance out what Audyssey sets to create more rear presence behind the MLP.

My guess is the addition of two overheads is creating a domed sound-stage that's more to the front. That's the reason for the crazy added expense of a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 setup.

Good luck, let us know how it works out for you.
JohnnyWilkinson likes this.
DaverJ is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 12:08 PM
Senior Member
 
JohnnyWilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 399
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
Have you tried using DTS Neural upmix instead of Dolby's?

Also, you might want to try listening to surround music that has instruments isolated in all 5 channels to see if the speaker balance sounds right. I like most anything mixed by Steven Wilson as a benchmark, particularly XTC, Jethro Tull, or his solo material. These adjustments seem to carry over the games pretty well. FWIW, my Atmos 5.1.2 setup I have to raise the rear channels a bit to balance out what Audyssey sets to create more rear presence behind the MLP.

My guess is the addition of two overheads is creating a domed sound-stage that's more to the front. That's the reason for the crazy added expense of a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 setup.

Good luck, let us know how it works out for you.
This makes a lot of sense to me.

Given the rear speakers are physically behind you, surely there are only two options that are causing this: speaker levels, or the mixing. For example, if your receiver was just naturally sending all the rear surround sound from a 5.1 mix to what are now your sides.

Sounds like it should be solvable.
JohnnyWilkinson is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 02-17-2019, 04:12 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Foxbat121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 11,813
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Liked: 482
If I understand OP correctly, here is what's going:

If you setup Xbox to LPCM7.1 or Atmos bitstream, Xbox will always output 7.1 channels + heights if source provides. If source is not 7.1, most games and apps are 5.1 only, you get 2 rear channels that are silent instead of missing. As such, receivers will always see 7.1 and not invoke any upconversion. That leaves two rear channels always silent.

So, for non-Atmos source, I always set my Xbox to LPCM 5.1 and let my receiver to apply DTS Neural X processing instead.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
pg22 likes this.
Foxbat121 is online now  
post #10 of 21 Old 02-19-2019, 01:13 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
If I understand OP correctly, here is what's going:

If you setup Xbox to LPCM7.1 or Atmos bitstream, Xbox will always output 7.1 channels + heights if source provides. If source is not 7.1, most games and apps are 5.1 only, you get 2 rear channels that are silent instead of missing. As such, receivers will always see 7.1 and not invoke any upconversion. That leaves two rear channels always silent.

So, for non-Atmos source, I always set my Xbox to LPCM 5.1 and let my receiver to apply DTS Neural X processing instead.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Yeah, this is one of the annoying things about the implementation of Atmos on the Xbox. Only a few games support Atmos... Gears of War 4 and Rise of the Tomb Raider are the games I own there are a few more, list available somewhere. I only set the Xbox to Atmos if I'm playing one of those.

The up-mixing sounds as good to me as the native Atmos on streaming media (Amazon/Netflix). I can only assume the Atmos for this content is lossy. The Xbox will still bitstream Atmos from Blu-ray and (as far as I can tell) Plex.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
Isaac Gaillard is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 02-19-2019, 02:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 968
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 557 Post(s)
Liked: 187
What AVR do you have, OP?
Also, have you rerun room correction tool again when switching from 5.1 to 7.1 or 7.1.2?
tinhvo is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 02-21-2019, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
HeadRusch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,378
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
If I understand OP correctly, here is what's going:

If you setup Xbox to LPCM7.1 or Atmos bitstream, Xbox will always output 7.1 channels + heights if source provides. If source is not 7.1, most games and apps are 5.1 only, you get 2 rear channels that are silent instead of missing. As such, receivers will always see 7.1 and not invoke any upconversion. That leaves two rear channels always silent.
This. And this was the reason that I moved to 7.1, and went back to 5.1. For gaming, especially the past years, my rears sat silent unless I messed with my receiver's matrix-processing modes. Which I never did, cuz Direct mode. So here I'm in uncharted territory and this is exactly the reason above.

Quote:
So, for non-Atmos source, I always set my Xbox to LPCM 5.1 and let my receiver to apply DTS Neural X processing instead.
Ok...so only setting the xbox to bitstream Atmos isn't the smart option for 5.1 or 7.1 games and is really for movies......the smart option is sending the native output and letting the receiver use either its Dolby or DTS audio-trickery DSP's then......just making sure I'm picking up on this correctly.

Thanks all.

ALSO: I currently have an Onkyo receiver set up, it can do 7.2.2 max...but its on the way out, as it does not pass HDR. I have a Yamaha 2070 about to be swapped-in, I just got the speakers setup and have been messing with this before I swapped in the new HTR so really, I'll be doing all this on a Yamaha but right now an Onkyo is sitting there.

Xbox Live / PS3 / Steam: HeadRusch1
Keeping the world safe from the evil antics of Bernie Tanaka and Mel Fujitsu since 1986


Last edited by HeadRusch; 02-21-2019 at 07:28 AM.
HeadRusch is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 02-21-2019, 08:02 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
...Ok...so only setting the xbox to bitstream Atmos isn't the smart option for 5.1 or 7.1 games and is really for movies......the smart option is sending the native output and letting the receiver use either its Dolby or DTS audio-trickery DSP's then......just making sure I'm picking up on this correctly...
I think you've got it. One thing to note is that you can get Atmos (or the format of your choice) from Blu-rays regardless of your overall system audio settings.

In the Blu-Ray settings page select "let my receiver decode audio" and then whatever you select in each Blu-ray menu will be sent to your receiver untouched. The "downside" of this is you won't get Xbox system/notification sounds while watching the movie as the Xbox won't be processing (and merging) these with your source audio. Not a big deal for me as I don't want my sound interrupted while watching a movie. The visual notifications, a party invite for example, will still pop up.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
DaverJ, pg22 and Arutha_conDoin like this.
Isaac Gaillard is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 02-21-2019, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
HeadRusch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,378
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 169
I knew this place would set me straight....thanks for the enlightenment everyone.

Xbox Live / PS3 / Steam: HeadRusch1
Keeping the world safe from the evil antics of Bernie Tanaka and Mel Fujitsu since 1986

HeadRusch is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 02-22-2019, 06:20 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Foxbat121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 11,813
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Liked: 482
For non-BD player audio, e.g. games and apps, there is really no bitstream option. Set it to LPCM 5.1 or 7.1 if you are using non-Atmos game or app. Only use Atmos bitstream if your source is Atmos (game or app). Don't ever use DTS or DD bitstream because that means Xbox will re-encode everything into lossy DTS or DD (only useful if you intent to only use optical audio connection).
Foxbat121 is online now  
post #16 of 21 Old 03-16-2019, 08:12 AM
Member
 
pg22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
For non-BD player audio, e.g. games and apps, there is really no bitstream option. Set it to LPCM 5.1 or 7.1 if you are using non-Atmos game or app. Only use Atmos bitstream if your source is Atmos (game or app). Don't ever use DTS or DD bitstream because that means Xbox will re-encode everything into lossy DTS or DD (only useful if you intent to only use optical audio connection).
Does your advice change when using stereo headphones plugged directly into an Atmos-compatible receiver (Yamaha RX-781)?

The Xbox's Dolby Atmos for Headphones app piqued my interest; claiming it "works" through any set of headphones. I have a solid 5.1 setup employing your advice above. But this atmos-headphones feature could be interesting because I have a decent pair (V-Moda M100).

Thanks!
pg22 is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 03-16-2019, 10:23 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Foxbat121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 11,813
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Liked: 482
Xbox Atmos headphone only works with headphones connected directly to Xbox. If you plug into your receiver, you need your receiver to support that feature.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
pg22 likes this.
Foxbat121 is online now  
post #18 of 21 Old 03-16-2019, 10:32 AM
Member
 
pg22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Xbox Atmos headphone only works with headphones connected directly to Xbox. If you plug into your receiver, you need your receiver to support that feature.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
That would explain why the demo movies didn't sound noteworthy when I tried them in the Dolby Xbox app. How does one connect stereo headphones directly into an Xbox? Some kind of 3.5mm (1/8") <> USB/Optical adaptor?

Feels like I'm missing something obvious. In any event, I appreciate the clarity.
pg22 is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 03-16-2019, 11:11 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Foxbat121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 11,813
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Liked: 482
You can plug it directly to the controller if you have the One S or One X controller.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Foxbat121 is online now  
post #20 of 21 Old 03-16-2019, 12:42 PM
Member
 
pg22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
You can plug it directly to the controller if you have the One S or One X controller.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
I just assumed that since we're talking high bandwidth audio tech, using the wireless jack on the controller was a non-starter!

Guess not!
pg22 is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 03-24-2019, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
HeadRusch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,378
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 169
I'd like to say that, having lived with it for a month or two now, where gaming is concerned I have never heard the sound of wind/rain, helicopters and bullet-casings so clearly envelop my room before.

In other words...it's a smirk-worthy upgrade for me on the gaming forefront. Am I gaming at the loud volumes that ambient overhead speakers might have more of an impact at? No, truth be told I listen at lower to moderate volumes so I accept that SOUND needs VOLUME to have the proper impact......I'd probably get more out of the Dolby Atmos Headphone app at a louder volume than something directly fed like I am right now, but I do accept that it's "Mostly for Movies"...and for gaming it's nice to have but kind of a solid "meh"......for movies, I'm sure it will deliver....but since there are less and less discs coming out I'd want to part with cash on...........well.....hey, for gaming, it's still a *solid* Meh.


Which, in 2019, is saying something......something like...Meh........

Xbox Live / PS3 / Steam: HeadRusch1
Keeping the world safe from the evil antics of Bernie Tanaka and Mel Fujitsu since 1986

HeadRusch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Xbox Area

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off