Issues with Color Space on Xbox one X and OLED C9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 12 Old 07-20-2019, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Simon1921's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Issues with Color Space on Xbox one X and OLED C9

I seem to be having an issue with the black levels being washed out when setting the Xbox to RGB full. Even with C9 black level set to high (rbb full), blacks look dull. Switching the Xbox to RGB limited and tv black setting to low fixes it. I would leave it on that and forget it, but a lot of my other modded consoles default to RGB full so it is a pain to switch it every time. RGB full on Xbox and tv black setting high should be almost identical to RGB limited on Xbox and tv black setting low, but it does not. I am not sure if it is a Xbox problem or C9 problem. Has anyone else had this issue?
Simon1921 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 Old 07-20-2019, 09:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
sgupta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 804
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 162
I don't have an OLED to test, so can't be certain, but I think you have half of the equation right by adjusting Black Level; make sure Deep Color is enabled for that HDMI port as well. I've also read you may need to configure LG OLED's to PC mode for RGB Full to be interpreted correctly. (I don't remember that to be the case on my prior OLED, but it was a 2016 model, and I didn't test thoroughly). I'd see if that resolves your issues.

That said, if it's an option, I'd still recommend setting all your consoles to RGB Limited and be done with it. Even if everything is set correctly, there's still a chance you're missing certain whiter-than-white or blacker-than-black details. See the color space information here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/94-ho...e-4-2-2-a.html

Last edited by sgupta; 07-20-2019 at 09:58 PM.
sgupta is offline  
post #3 of 12 Old 07-21-2019, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Simon1921's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Thanks so much for the info. I will try setting it to PC just to see, but I think doing RGB limited is probably the best way to go like you said. The thread you linked seems to say the same thing. Some of my modded consoles are RGB full only, but I can just move them to another port.
Simon1921 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 12 Old 07-21-2019, 07:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
sgupta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 804
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon1921 View Post
Thanks so much for the info. I will try setting it to PC just to see, but I think doing RGB limited is probably the best way to go like you said. The thread you linked seems to say the same thing. Some of my modded consoles are RGB full only, but I can just move them to another port.
Sounds like a good plan. I hope the PC setting works out, especially for those modded consoles. Between Black Level, Deep Color, and that, I think it *should* work properly.

And yeah - that other thread is mine - I ran some pretty extensive testing to try to figure out what some of these things actually output, as their descriptions leave a lot to be desired sometimes. lol.
sgupta is offline  
post #5 of 12 Old 07-21-2019, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Simon1921's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupta View Post

Sounds like a good plan. I hope the PC setting works out, especially for those modded consoles. Between Black Level, Deep Color, and that, I think it *should* work properly.

And yeah - that other thread is mine - I ran some pretty extensive testing to try to figure out what some of these things actually output, as their descriptions leave a lot to be desired sometimes. lol.
I actually have a HD Fury vertex as well. I have mostly used it for sending 2160p to the tv and 1080p to my capture card.

I may have missed it in your other thread, but are you using a low/limited black setting on your TV when in HDR? I saw that you said that HDR is not affected when setting the Xbox to limited/standard or PC RGB/Full. Does that mean if I am playing a game in HDR and the Xbox is also set to standard/limited color space then my tv black level should also be set to low/limited? Sorry if this is obvious. I just got confused when it comes to BT2020.
Simon1921 is offline  
post #6 of 12 Old 07-23-2019, 03:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
sgupta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 804
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon1921 View Post
I actually have a HD Fury vertex as well. I have mostly used it for sending 2160p to the tv and 1080p to my capture card.

I may have missed it in your other thread, but are you using a low/limited black setting on your TV when in HDR? I saw that you said that HDR is not affected when setting the Xbox to limited/standard or PC RGB/Full. Does that mean if I am playing a game in HDR and the Xbox is also set to standard/limited color space then my tv black level should also be set to low/limited? Sorry if this is obvious. I just got confused when it comes to BT2020.
So Black Level on Sony's is a bit different (called HDMI video range, but a separate Color space setting for the REC value is available too). They both have Auto settings that work quite well - I haven't seen it detect the wrong signal once yet as far as I can tell from content, so all my tests in that other thread were run with Auto on the TV for all these settings.

You can set them manually, though, so I played with that to try and determine this for you. Unfortunately, you can't see what Auto on the TV sets each setting to as there's no "tell" on the TV menu, but from visual comparison, looking at a movie source first, flipping back and forth between Auto, Full, and Limited, Auto mode matches Limited. Then I booted a game (PS4 Pro game in this case, though it shouldn't matter) in HDR. I can confirm HDR Mode is HDR10, HDMI Video Range is Limited (Full looks washed out by comparison), and Color Space is BT.2020. All settings set to Auto look exactly the same. Again, this is determined visually, but I don't know another way I can do it since the TV is the endpoint. I did pop open the PS4 web browser (which stays in HDR mode if an HDR game is running) and did the Lagom Black Level test (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php). That confirms the same - that Limited is showing black levels properly (all boxes visible with the first row very close to black) and that Full will elevate blacks and wash out the picture.

HDR is NOT affected by the Color Space setting on the XBOX, but that only applies to what it's outputting, not how the TV handles it coming in. If there is no Auto setting, from what I can determine, Deep Color needs enabled on that HDMI port, and yes, Black Level should be Low, at least based on my findings (but without an OLED to test).

This also seems to back that up and deals with your model: https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/commen...e_tv_settings/

Hope that helps! You can always try toggling Black Level in the dark scene of an HDR game to check for yourself. It should look good (properly dark, but still visible enough) on the proper setting of Low and washed out on Full, but if you get something different, let us know.
sgupta is offline  
post #7 of 12 Old 07-23-2019, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Simon1921's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupta View Post
So Black Level on Sony's is a bit different (called HDMI video range, but a separate Color space setting for the REC value is available too). They both have Auto settings that work quite well - I haven't seen it detect the wrong signal once yet as far as I can tell from content, so all my tests in that other thread were run with Auto on the TV for all these settings.

You can set them manually, though, so I played with that to try and determine this for you. Unfortunately, you can't see what Auto on the TV sets each setting to as there's no "tell" on the TV menu, but from visual comparison, looking at a movie source first, flipping back and forth between Auto, Full, and Limited, Auto mode matches Limited. Then I booted a game (PS4 Pro game in this case, though it shouldn't matter) in HDR. I can confirm HDR Mode is HDR10, HDMI Video Range is Limited (Full looks washed out by comparison), and Color Space is BT.2020. All settings set to Auto look exactly the same. Again, this is determined visually, but I don't know another way I can do it since the TV is the endpoint. I did pop open the PS4 web browser (which stays in HDR mode if an HDR game is running) and did the Lagom Black Level test (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php). That confirms the same - that Limited is showing black levels properly (all boxes visible with the first row very close to black) and that Full will elevate blacks and wash out the picture.

HDR is NOT affected by the Color Space setting on the XBOX, but that only applies to what it's outputting, not how the TV handles it coming in. If there is no Auto setting, from what I can determine, Deep Color needs enabled on that HDMI port, and yes, Black Level should be Low, at least based on my findings (but without an OLED to test).

This also seems to back that up and deals with your model: https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/commen...e_tv_settings/

Hope that helps! You can always try toggling Black Level in the dark scene of an HDR game to check for yourself. It should look good (properly dark, but still visible enough) on the proper setting of Low and washed out on Full, but if you get something different, let us know.

That definitely helps. Thank you! I got the same results as you. I started with the PS4 pro and played a couple of games in HDR. To my eyes limited black setting was right. After reading your post I went back and tried the Lagom black test and also got the same result . Xbox was the same as well to my eyes. HDR is tough to test without a test pattern since how they implement it for each game is different. I decided to try my other tv, which is a samsung KS-8000, and it seems to force High/Normal black levels in HDR. I am going to stick with limited being the right setting though because Samsung changes how it handles HDR with every single firmware update. Time to just be happy in limited.

Side note:
On PS4 Pro the vertex readout that displays on the tv (LG C9) shows the output as BT.2020 12bit whether I am selecting YUV420 output or not. I get 4:2:0 12bit when YUV420 is selected or 4:2:2 12bit when 2160p RGB is selected. I swear it used to be 10bit output when selecting YUV420. If I look at the input readout on the vertex itself it shows something different for HDR.

YUV420 selected:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 12-bit
YCbCr BT.2020

RGB 2160p selected:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 8-bit
YCbCrBT. 2020

I am going to assume that is right? I am not going to pretend like I understand all or any of the information given on the Vertex, but it just seems weird that it displays 12-bit on the tv and 8-bit on the unit itself when RGB is selected in HDR.

With the Xbox, the vertex displays on the TV 4:2:0 10-bit with (Allow 4:2:2 unchecked) and 4:2:2 12-bit with (Allow 4:2:2 checked). On the Vertex itself the readout is different again with allow 4:2:2 selected.

Allow 4:2:2 unchecked:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 10-bit
YCbCr BT.2020

Allow 4:2:2 checked:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 8-bit
YCbCrBT. 2020
Simon1921 is offline  
post #8 of 12 Old 07-24-2019, 01:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
sgupta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 804
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon1921 View Post
That definitely helps. Thank you! I got the same results as you. I started with the PS4 pro and played a couple of games in HDR. To my eyes limited black setting was right. After reading your post I went back and tried the Lagom black test and also got the same result . Xbox was the same as well to my eyes. HDR is tough to test without a test pattern since how they implement it for each game is different. I decided to try my other tv, which is a samsung KS-8000, and it seems to force High/Normal black levels in HDR. I am going to stick with limited being the right setting though because Samsung changes how it handles HDR with every single firmware update. Time to just be happy in limited.
I think Limited should be right from all the information out there as well as the testing we've both done; I can't explain the Samsung thing, but unlike LG, I've not played with a modern Samsung television, so couldn't speculate. It's possible Samsung handles the HDR signal differently than LG or Sony does.

Quote:
Side note:
On PS4 Pro the vertex readout that displays on the tv (LG C9) shows the output as BT.2020 12bit whether I am selecting YUV420 output or not. I get 4:2:0 12bit when YUV420 is selected or 4:2:2 12bit when 2160p RGB is selected. I swear it used to be 10bit output when selecting YUV420. If I look at the input readout on the vertex itself it shows something different for HDR.

YUV420 selected:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 12-bit
YCbCr BT.2020

RGB 2160p selected:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 8-bit
YCbCrBT. 2020

I am going to assume that is right? I am not going to pretend like I understand all or any of the information given on the Vertex, but it just seems weird that it displays 12-bit on the tv and 8-bit on the unit itself when RGB is selected in HDR."
I don't recall any instances where the source output and TV reported data were different for me (I compared them a bit, though don't remember if I did every single time - I usually went by what it said on the TV itself most of the time). It's also possible something in between the TV and console, such as a receiver, could be doing something as well. Finally, I'd double check the Vertex is configured strictly to pass through everything. What happens when you set everything to Automatic on the PS4?

Quote:
With the Xbox, the vertex displays on the TV 4:2:0 10-bit with (Allow 4:2:2 unchecked) and 4:2:2 12-bit with (Allow 4:2:2 checked). On the Vertex itself the readout is different again with allow 4:2:2 selected.

Allow 4:2:2 unchecked:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 10-bit
YCbCr BT.2020

Allow 4:2:2 checked:
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 8-bit
YCbCrBT. 2020
I really can't explain this one. *scratches head* One thing you could try is posting this query in the Vertex thread - they might be able to help figure out what's going on. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...hread-126.html I'm curious too. If you need me to, I'm happy to rerun a few HDR tests and compare the Vertex display to the TV display just to make sure I didn't miss comparing the two for HDR game output, as I honestly don't remember at this point.
sgupta is offline  
post #9 of 12 Old 07-24-2019, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Simon1921's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupta View Post
I don't recall any instances where the source output and TV reported data were different for me (I compared them a bit, though don't remember if I did every single time - I usually went by what it said on the TV itself most of the time). It's also possible something in between the TV and console, such as a receiver, could be doing something as well. Finally, I'd double check the Vertex is configured strictly to pass through everything. What happens when you set everything to Automatic on the PS4?
I removed all other devices from the chain so I just have vertex in between the Ps4 and TV. The vertex is set to no scaling/passthrough, HDCP set to follow input, and EDID set to automix. Oh and I am using the 2160P out on the vertex. I selected Automatic for everything on the PS4 and I am getting:
4k59 935 4:2:2 BT.2020 12b HDR 593MHz (displayed on the tv and the first page of information on the vertex)
VIC 97 3840x2160p 59.935Hz 8-bit YCbCrBT. 2020. (displayed on second page of the vertex)


Quote:
I really can't explain this one. *scratches head* One thing you could try is posting this query in the Vertex thread - they might be able to help figure out what's going on. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...hread-126.html I'm curious too. If you need me to, I'm happy to rerun a few HDR tests and compare the Vertex display to the TV display just to make sure I didn't miss comparing the two for HDR game output, as I honestly don't remember at this point.
Thanks again for all the help. I just posted the question on the Vertex owners thread so I will report back when they respond.
Simon1921 is offline  
post #10 of 12 Old 07-25-2019, 02:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
sgupta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 804
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Great info - just saw their response and your DM. So to summarize, it looks like we should go by that first page/what displays on the TV and not worry about the RGB value on the second page, but this is good information to know and new to me as well! Thanks for adding to my understanding, and hopefully it helped get you clearer on settings also! =)
sgupta is offline  
post #11 of 12 Old 08-14-2019, 02:58 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
It's not just you and I've tried every single way and I have elevated balcks in hdr on gaming and even in the internal apps on some movies there seems to be an issue with the lg c9 and dithering and also I've noticed sometimes during a load screen that should be completely black it somehow thinks its above balcks and dithers guess what that would do well its white noise I mean the dithering being active makes blacks raise its rieiduckous I've contacted lg and many others are having this issue nice to know it isnt just me again I've done everything possible everyone's advice nothing full works some titles are fine others arent it's the way the tv is reading the content even when in manual it still does it its reading blacks weirdly again it's not just an issue on xbox this is how I know and it's almost every single dolby vision movie lg had this issue before except now over more sources because of I'm guessing the dithering they need to re program the tv idk why they have to be told about issues there engeneerers should be checking this stuff especially with updates as the last update seems to of made noise reduction almost not work at all and raised blacks even worse very very weird so anybody with an lg c9 dont worry it isnt yoy or a bad set it's just the c9 but lg will fix it they always do and no nothing will work black level low high rgb full or limited auto or manual nothing works I've tried it all in everyway possible so for now just enjoy your TV know it isnt just your set and lg will fix the issue we all need to be emailing them tho I mean so many people are seeing it at least the ones knowing what there looking for seriously get up close to your TV when yoy see the elevated blacks you will see the dithering mostly on hdr very very little sdr content does it but it seems when a very bright image or even just letters is on a blacks background it takes the light as thinking its above black and dithers making blacks raise it's a programming issue as the c8 had this issue in a different way and is fixed and the c9 has the same so called fix already in place so it is indeed some other issue I really do think it's the dithering algorithm messing it up but you never know it may not be but there are def raised blacks on alot of hdr and Dolby vision content not just excluded from xbox
Reviewforthetube is offline  
post #12 of 12 Old 08-14-2019, 03:41 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Another thing guys this 8 bit 10 bit 12 bit thing is wrong the xbox one x is programmed to automatically go to 10 bit color on hdr content and never put it to 12 bit because even then colors could be washed out even in hdr in comparison here is the reason why ylyr panel is a 10 bit panel right well sdr content is 8 bit so your sdr games when forced to 10 bit will be washed out same as forcing 10 bit hdr to 12 bit the xbox one x is programmed to where even if set to 8 bit the xbox will automatically put it in 10 bit for hdr content but it will not go backwards so if you set it to 10 bit it will try displaying the sdr game in 10 and will in turn make colors worse because the sdr games arent formatted that way there are many articles on this and Microsoft has already explained it when sites asked them always leave it in 8 bit its programmed to do the rest you can even mess with performance if set wrong wouldnt think it could but it can iys all programming this is why go play and sdr game if yoy have an oled right put it in PC rgb 8 bit then go back to 10 bit tons of loss in color on 10 bit and no it isnt over saturated with 8bit the content is meant to be displayed in 8 bit and again when in hdr it will go to 10 bit automatically it just wont go to 8 bit if set to 10 bit and never set to 1w bit color you wont get any content displayed as it should be unless you have a 12 bit panel and I know you dont lol even then keep it at 8 bit the xbox will do what it's supposed to you can clearly see the difference in a big way again you can look it up and read the articles about it fully explains everything in detail even in standard not rgb with 8 bit there is still more color then with 10 bit on sdr games you will even feel the game running better
Reviewforthetube is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Xbox Area

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off