All PS4s to support HDR via Firmware Update! - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 298 Old 12-27-2016, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
HDR is independent from resolution. And the original PS4 and Slim is running the same OS as the Pro - specifically to avoid abandoning the older models.
The PS4s have two OS and both have changes due to hardware changes. I'd guess it's more accurate to say that some of the Features are the same across all PS4s.

Given Vidipath (DLNA + DRM in PS4 Intellectual notice WMDRM (Resolutions below 1080P) to be used for in home media streaming which will likely support the following:

Vidipath from Cable TV DVR (Resolutions below 1080P) Documented and coming


Vidipath from Cable TV Cablemodem (resolutions from 1080P to 4K in Industry papers needs Playready 3.0, HEVC 8 for 1080P and HEVC 10 for 4K, HDMI 2.0a for HDR (1080P and 4K) and in home streaming needs Playready ND)
Vidipath from ATSC 1.0 & 3.0 tuners (Resolutions up to 4K) in industry papers ATSC 1.0 needs WMDRM support and HDMI 1.4 but ATSC 3.0 needs Playready ND, HEVC 10 and HDMI 2.0a Most content in ATSC 3.0 will be 1080P or less resolution with HDR optional.

Vidipath from UHD Blu-ray Digital bridge players (in industry papers speculated for 2017) needs the features a ATSC 3.0 (Above) stream needs

 HDR signal (HD and UHD) (with HDR meta data) will be transferred to UHDTV with HDR by new HDMI 2.0 or later ATSC 3.0 1080P will support HDR

Netflix 4K streaming comes to the PC—but it needs Kaby Lake CPU or AMD Carrizo APU or dGPU with DRM secure Trusted Execution Environment.

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Netflix launched 4K streaming in 2014 on a select number of TVs before rolling it out to dedicated streaming boxes like the Amazon Fire TV, Roku, and Nvidia Shield. 4K streaming on PC was notably missing from the rollout, due in part to piracy and DRM concerns from Hollywood studios and TV networks.

In an effort to placate the studios, Microsoft introduced "PlayReady 3.0" with the Windows 10 Anniversary update. PlayReady 3.0 is a hardware-based DRM (digital rights management) system that requires dedicated decoding hardware, either on the CPU or on the graphics card, preventing the video stream from being captured in software or via an external capture device.
In the PS4, Southbridge contains the dedicated Playready 3.0 hardware including; Codec, HDCP 2.2, Player DRM. The version of HEVC codec in Southbridge in the 2013 through 2016 PS4s has not been confirmed. HEVC 8 is in the original XB1 but according to Microsoft employees, it only has a HDMI 1.4 port. All PS4s have a HDMI 2.0a port but Sony has officially only confirmed the Pro supports 4K streaming. In the efficientgaming.eu site Sony calls all PS4s UHD Capable. If they are not UHD Capable, depending on what UHD Capable means, they may only support the proposal for HD media with HDR which requires a HDMI 2.0a port which all have been confirmed to have. They may only have a HD or HEVC 8 Codec; in this case, some other platform must support ATSC 3.0 and stream media to them at a resolution they can support. This is why I think all PS4s have a HEVC profile 10 codec and are UHD Capable.

The PS5 should support protected modes for memory, GPU and CPU so it may not need dedicated hardware to support Playready 3.0 and 1080P through 4K commercial media. As such it can easily support commercial 8K media. Glassless 3D and 4K VR.

FYI, the 2013 XB1 is the first AMD APU with protected memory modes allowing the DDR3 memory to be used for commercial Playready 3 media. The PS4 using GDDR5 memory for the APU had to move the ARM Trustzone block out of the APU to Southbridge for both Power and DRM issues.

The above impacted the upgrade path with Sony able to use Polaris with GDDR5 and Microsoft having to wait for Vega which uses HBM. With Navi (late 2018), both Sony and Microsoft may use the same SoC. This SoC may also be in PCs and may be a reason for Sony not knowing if they will release a PS5 or not.

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post #272 of 298 Old 12-27-2016, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
HDR is independent from resolution. And the original PS4 and Slim is running the same OS as the Pro - specifically to avoid abandoning the older models.
Game is amazing and HDR brings out the awesome colors but the screen was still very dim for my taste, therefore I had to turn Dynamic Contrast on my Samsung to High to get the bright vibrancy and there was no looking back! In the very first chapter there was some stuttering but went away after the second chapter began. Game now looks awe-inspiring!
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post #273 of 298 Old 01-06-2017, 09:21 PM
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Now that Sony is officially supporting Dolby Vision, is PS4 Pro support of DV even remotely a possibility? I hope so.

It is my understanding that Sony is able to eventually enable Dolby Vision on the Z9d displays because they utilize a Mediatek chipset (similar or same as utilized by Oppo BDP-203).

I have also read that PCs equipped with an Nvidia Geforce 10 series or AMD Radeon RX 400 series GPUs are capable of sending Dolby Vision to compatible displays. I state this obecause the PS4 supposedly uses a custom AMD GPU (x2 in the Pro) said to be a RX 400 series equivalent I believe.

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post #274 of 298 Old 01-07-2017, 11:36 AM
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http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1483718865

Interesting news... Sony is introducing 1080P HDR displays as a low cost entry into PS4 HDR gaming.
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post #275 of 298 Old 01-07-2017, 01:02 PM
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Pretty awesome update!
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post #276 of 298 Old 01-07-2017, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikazaru View Post
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1483718865

Interesting news... Sony is introducing 1080P HDR displays as a low cost entry into PS4 HDR gaming.
I mention HD with HDR above in post 271. There was speculation on this based on the leaked UHD Blu-ray digital bridge PDF. There is even a Blu-ray format disk that is 1080P with HDR listed. HDR HD TVs were mentioned. Most Antenna TV (ATSC 3.0) content will be 1080P with HDR.

Anyone think every PS4 will support 1080P blu-ray with HDR? It requires HEVC according to the PDF.

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post #277 of 298 Old 01-09-2017, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikazaru View Post
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1483718865

Interesting news... Sony is introducing 1080P HDR displays as a low cost entry into PS4 HDR gaming.
Cool. The 32 inch one would be great for me.
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post #278 of 298 Old 01-12-2017, 07:57 PM
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I don't know if Sony should do a TV thing again (remember the PS3 TV?). It's too bad the Pro didn't get the UHD drive...
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post #279 of 298 Old 01-13-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dgambino1 View Post
I don't know if Sony should do a TV thing again (remember the PS3 TV?). It's too bad the Pro didn't get the UHD drive...
oh yea

wasn't it 3d too?
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post #280 of 298 Old 01-13-2017, 05:49 PM
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Does anyone know if the PS4 slim's apps can stream in 4k? I get the console itself can't do what the Pro can but can the apps themselves via the slim?
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post #281 of 298 Old 01-14-2017, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Atharun18999 View Post
Does anyone know if the PS4 slim's apps can stream in 4k? I get the console itself can't do what the Pro can but can the apps themselves via the slim?
1) Apps in all PS4s are Mono apps and call the native libraries supporting the HTML5 browser. (Confirmed) In the PS3, PS4 and Vita the APIs seem to follow the Gnome mobile initiative (GTK) HTML5 webkit APIs. http://wololo.net/2013/10/20/mono-on...one-the-irony/

2) Commercial media requires DRM and DRM rules require protected memory with the codecs running in the protected Trusted Execution Environment; I.E. HTML5 <video> native library running in the ARM Trustzone block located in Southbridge supporting the browser.

3) ALL PS4s support 4K non commercial no DRM media maybe only at 30Hz and maybe with h.264 and we do not know if a HEVC 10 codec is in the Trustzone TEE in 2013, 2015 and the 2016 Slim. Sony has confirmed the PS4 PRO supports 4K commercial streaming.

As to your question, does the 2016 Slim support HEVC 10, it should as the 5 HEVC accelerator routines were published by Microsoft in 2013 but were known in time for the 2013 PS4 to be implemented in Software. In the 2016 PS4 those routines should be fixed hardware and much more efficient and cheaper to implement. In the 2013 PS4 they would be implemented with the Xtensa DSP in software and that would require a larger and more expensive DSP block (about $6.00).

Note: the 5 HEVC accelerator routines would be used by a software codec that supports multiple codecs. The XB1 APU contains a pure hardware HEVC codec for game streaming due to latency that is fixed and can not support anything but HEVC. To support h.264 game streaming a separate hardware codec that only supports h.264 is also in the APU.

4) A program running in the APU can support 4K @ 60 Hz non commercial media, support multiple HEVC 10 codecs even, but we do not know if the HDMI port can support it. Commercial media can never be supported by the current PS4 APU in any way. (The TEE must still be in Southbridge as there is a 1 GB DDR3 memory instead of the 256 MB.)

EDIT: At this time Netflix is using the APU's GPU for commercial media which creates DRM vulnerabilities. Sometime around 2010 when OpenGL was chosen to support Browsers and Browsers were proposed as the Desktop UI (The PS4 has a WebGL Desktop.), Microsoft stated that there were overflow vulnerabilities allowing hackers to crack DRM routines in memory. AMD sometime around 2010 started adding ARM Trustzone as a security processor to APUs and dGPUs. The ARM Tee in AMD APUs and Playready 3 is the answer to these DRM vulnerabilities.

5) One of the features of HDMI 2.0 is the ability to treat the LAN port as a HDMI 2 port and stream over the home network The LAN port in all PS4s can support Gigabit speeds and the media is HEVC compressed over that port which means it can easily support 4K even 8k, the limiting factor would be something else. Commercial media just requires HDCP 2.2 encryption over that port and all media enters and exits the PS4 through the Southbridge which contains the ARM trustzone TEE which also has the HDCP 2.2 routines.

We do not know if all PS4s being called UHD Capable means more than HD + HDR (1080P + HDR) which requires a HDMI 2.0a port and HEVC 8. It has been confirmed by a game developer that the HDMI 2.0a port supports 1080P @ 60 Hz + HDR which requires a level A HDMI 2.0a port which can support 4K @ 60 Hz. If this is true then only the PS4s supporting HEVC 10 in the ARM Trustzone TEE is in doubt/needs to be confirmed.

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post #282 of 298 Old 01-16-2017, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Now that Sony is officially supporting Dolby Vision, is PS4 Pro support of DV even remotely a possibility? I hope so.

It is my understanding that Sony is able to eventually enable Dolby Vision on the Z9d displays because they utilize a Mediatek chipset (similar or same as utilized by Oppo BDP-203).

I have also read that PCs equipped with an Nvidia Geforce 10 series or AMD Radeon RX 400 series GPUs are capable of sending Dolby Vision to compatible displays. I state this obecause the PS4 supposedly uses a custom AMD GPU (x2 in the Pro) said to be a RX 400 series equivalent I believe.
Good question but no confirm able answer. The PS4 Pro with 1 GB DDR3 for Southbridge instead of 256 MB still has the media TEE in Southbridge. HDR or Dolby vision for media takes place in the Trusted execution environment which in the case of ALL PS4s is a ARM Trustzone block in southbridge. HDR negotiation be it HDR 10 or Dolby Vision uses the same hardware channels. So the question is software support and is the ARM block powerful enough....

Game support for HDR 10 or Dolby vision uses the GPU which is not allowed for commercial media. There is no question the PRO hardware is powerful enough provided the game developer supports it.
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post #283 of 298 Old 01-16-2017, 12:03 PM
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That is good info, thanks @jeff_rigby . Since Sony has shown that the PS4 is focused on gaming and not media, I'm not holding my breath for a Dolby Vision update. HDR10 is sufficient for gaming.

I would like Sony to add access to its Ultra streaming service to the PS4 Pro though. I don't understand why it wasn't at launch.

I will only purchase their UBP-X800 if it includes Dolby Vision. Otherwise I will probably go with the LG UHD BR Player.
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post #284 of 298 Old 01-17-2017, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Now that Sony is officially supporting Dolby Vision, is PS4 Pro support of DV even remotely a possibility? I hope so.

It is my understanding that Sony is able to eventually enable Dolby Vision on the Z9d displays because they utilize a Mediatek chipset (similar or same as utilized by Oppo BDP-203).

I have also read that PCs equipped with an Nvidia Geforce 10 series or AMD Radeon RX 400 series GPUs are capable of sending Dolby Vision to compatible displays. I state this obecause the PS4 supposedly uses a custom AMD GPU (x2 in the Pro) said to be a RX 400 series equivalent I believe.
Sony is only supporting Dolby Vision on the OLED tv's that they will be releasing. Neither their regular LED TVs nor UHD player this year will have the Dolby Vision chip in them to enable the playback of DV media. No version of the PS4 (pro/original) have the Dolby Vision chip in it, source and target h/w need the chip in it to enable DV playback
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post #285 of 298 Old 01-17-2017, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthJersey View Post
Sony is only supporting Dolby Vision on the OLED tv's that they will be releasing. Neither their regular LED TVs nor UHD player this year will have the Dolby Vision chip in them to enable the playback of DV media. No version of the PS4 (pro/original) have the Dolby Vision chip in it, source and target h/w need the chip in it to enable DV playback
That is not 100% correct. The Z9d/ZD9 and 93/94e LED sets also contain the X1 processor and w/DV support. Checkout the display forum, the many CES 2017 reports, or Sony's own website for the details.
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post #286 of 298 Old 01-17-2017, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthJersey View Post
Sony is only supporting Dolby Vision on the OLED tv's that they will be releasing. Neither their regular LED TVs nor UHD player this year will have the Dolby Vision chip in them to enable the playback of DV media. No version of the PS4 (pro/original) have the Dolby Vision chip in it, source and target h/w need the chip in it to enable DV playback
The Sony TVs that have the X1 Extreme processor will support Dolby Vision. So only their upper end TVs. Which include the OLED TVs, Z series, and the 930E/940E TVs. The Sony TVs with the regular X1 processor will only support HDR10.
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post #287 of 298 Old 01-18-2017, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
The Sony TVs that have the X1 Extreme processor will support Dolby Vision. So only their upper end TVs. Which include the OLED TVs, Z series, and the 930E/940E TVs. The Sony TVs with the regular X1 processor will only support HDR10.
The PS4s have a Xtensa DSP block for Audio (confirmed) and Video (to support the confirmed Netflix HD + HDR they need at least HEVC 8 and the only way the ARM trustzone block in the 2013 PS4 can do this is to have a video DSP block).

It makes sense for Upper end TVs to have a more powerful DSP block (X1 is a DSP) and it's not a fixed function chip but does have fixed function accelerators so, if it's powerful enough, it can support Dolby Vision in Software. X1 video processing, HDR, Codecs, Player and in a Source HDCP 2.2, best practice dictates it must happen in the same TEE; a Display/TV can have a separate HDMI chip with HDCP 2.2 but all pins/traces from that HDMI chip must be hidden between it and the Video processing TEE. I'm looking forward to specs on these DSP blocks and descriptions of what is in the various PS4s and what they can support.

Browsers are designed to support HDR10 as that has been an accepted standard for ATSC 3.0 and UHD Blu-ray which use the Browser to Play and display. Various other features like Vidipath use the same browser standards to stream and Play over the home network. The standards appear to be evolving which is why ATSC 3.0 is not even candidate status yet (End Q1). Korea has changed the ATSC 3.0 audio codec from Dolby to a Public Domain version.

I think Sony delaying the release of their UHD players is tied to a final version of HTML5 <video> MSE EME with watermarking and ATSC 3.0/Vidipath specs. PCs get their first UHD Blu-ray player April 17, 2017 (End Q1).

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post #288 of 298 Old 01-19-2017, 05:29 AM
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AT CES 2017 Comcast announced (thanks to PaulGo):

End Q1:
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Originally Posted by http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/ces-2017-comcast-aims-smarten-simplify-home-network/409942
Comcast is using this year’s CES to introduce “Digital Home,” a tightly integrated, cloud-powered platform that aims to enable its subs to centralize and organize their networks via millions of in-home broadband gateways.
Comcast expects the new whole-home platform to go live by the end of Q1 2017,

The new offering, a free addition, will run on a new app for mobile devices and a Web portal and will also be integrated with the X1 voice remote. It will feature personalization and parental control elements, quick self-install capabilities, and, for larger homes that need wider coverage, an option for self-configuring WiFi extenders that work in tandem with the home’s primary gateway.

Shooting for scale out of the chute, Comcast estimates that it will have 10 million gateways enabled with the Digital Home capability by the time the service goes fully live. The goal is to have 15 million gateways enabled with the new platform by the end of 2017.

Satchell said the new offering has been made to work with already-deployed gateways such as the XB3, as well as a new, DOCSIS 3.1-based “Advanced Gateway” (also known as the XB6), which is in trials today, and expected to move to general availability sometime in Q1.
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Comcast has tapped Arris and Technicolor as its first two suppliers for the XB6, a DOCSIS 3.1-powered, multi-gigabit advanced gateway that the MSO plans to start rolling out in the first quarter of 2017. Comcast is preparing to accelerate the deployment of the XB6 as it looks to expand its deployment of DOCSIS 3.1 and 1-gig residential broadband service to additional markets in 2017 and as it gets ready to unleash a new “Digital Home” offering announced at CES today.

Compatible with DOCSIS 3.0 and newer DOCSIS 3.1 networks, the XB6 also supports MoCA 2.0, dual-band 802.11ac WiFi, ZigBee, Bluetooth LE (low energy), as well as ports for digital voice services.
Sony is shipping it's High end and Mass market UHD Blu-ray players by March (Q1) 2017. Third party PC UHD blu-ray players will be available April 17 (Q1). Google will no longer accept Flash video end of Q1 as everything will be HTML5 <video>.

The XB1 design with HDMI pass through supports Standard Cable boxes while the PS4 design requires IPTV delivery over the home network; the PS4 design is the future which apparently starts in 2017. Miracast and DLNA are still not built into the PS4 but DLNA is built into the XB1. Since the XB1 is always on when watching cable you can DLNA cast to it at any time. To use DLNA on the PS4 you have to change inputs, turn on the PS4, select the Player app and navigate to the file on the server you want to play. It does not support casting to or control by a phone or tablet. If you are watching Playstation Vue for instance (IPTV), cast to or control by a phone could be supported but is not enabled at this time. It appears that third party apps on the PS4 do not use the PS4 software stack at this time; do not use the Embedded Playready listed in the PS4 intellectual notice, nor does anything use the WMDRM listed for DLNA DTCP-IP DRM. The PS4 Player does not support any DRM media at this time.

From 2010 Comcast and other cable providers have planned to start the move to all IPTV in 2017. The above news for Comcast confirms this. 4k MEDIA DELIVERY will be by IPTV from a gateway device (cable modem or DVR with built in cable modem supporting DOCSIS 3.1). Just as with Sony upgrading the PS4 Pro WiFi to 802.11 AC, Comcast's new gateways support the same WiFi standard needed for robust 4K wireless.

With the move to DOCSIS 3.1 Gigabit modems, Comcast Internet can support IPTV similar to Playstation Vue. The FCC DSTAC and Cable TV no longer required to use a Cable Card opens Consumer CE platforms to the ability to access Cable (IPTV) with out a Cable box. I.E. A Smart TV, STB or Game Console can directly access Cable programming as well as OTT and Antenna TV (ATSC 3.0 starting the end of 2017 in some markets) over their home network. If a UHD Blu-ray player supports the proposed Digital bridge then the Blu-ray movies are also accessible over the home network provided all support HTML5 and a common DRM (Playready ND). Comcast already supports DLNA + Playready = Vidipath with their X1 DVRs which the FCC mandated but there are NO third party client devices at this time.

Putting all this together, I believe Sony has been waiting for IPTV (2017) before they firmware update the PS4s to support embedded DRM for Media. This probably is happening with Firmware 4.5 near the end of Q1 (Sony has a major firmware update every 6 months near the end of Q1 and beginning of Q4 (April and October)). Games do not require DRM but 1080P and greater resolution media require embedded DRM (Playready 3). Third party apps on the PS4 are using embedded in software DRM something like or Playready 2.5. Playready 3 has parts embedded in hardware with parts of it in the Media TEE managed with TPM 2.0 standards provided by hardware manufacturers in drivers which Windows 10 updated to summer of 2015 for Playready 3 needed for 4K media.

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post #289 of 298 Old 01-19-2017, 08:06 AM
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Could you please create some other thread for this? None of that numbing wall of text has anything to do with HDR.
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post #290 of 298 Old 01-19-2017, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan E View Post
Could you please create some other thread for this? None of that numbing wall of text has anything to do with HDR.
I'll summarize for you:

The thread is about: All PS4s to support HDR via Firmware Update!

1) Sony has confirmed Game HDR for all PS4s

2) This link is about announcements at CES; Sony is going to release a line of HD + HDR TVs
Netflix is going to support HD + HDR

3) Gaming does not require DRM but Media does
No PS4 has third party apps or DLNA player using embedded DRM

4) When Sony firmware updates the PS4s with embedded DRM we should see HD + HDR support on those PS4s as Sony calls them UHD capable in the efficientgaming.Eu website and at a minimum they should support HEVC 8 + HDMI 2.0a for HD + HDR with Playready 3 (embedded).

5) The cites show a pattern which MAY indicate when Sony is firmware updating the PS4s.

Off Topic is that we should see DLNA, Miracast, ooVoo and more at nearly the same time as they rely on some of the DRM coming.

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post #291 of 298 Old 01-19-2017, 08:58 AM
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A thread about 4K discs, then, would be far more relevant.
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post #292 of 298 Old 01-20-2017, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Evan E View Post
A thread about 4K discs, then, would be far more relevant.
From what I knew 2 years ago (The PS4 has a HDMI 2.0 port.) yes. In hindsight now that we know Sony is producing a line of HD + HDR TVs and they apparently consider HD + HDR a UHD mode, it could be that only the PRO could have supported UHD Blu-ray.

It looks like there is NO commercial media using the embedded Trustzone TEE in any PS4 at this time. The current APPs are self contained and use the AMD GPU with very little of the PS4 software stack, this creates DRM vulnerabilities....the Fail overflow video below confirms this.

At this time Netflix and Blu-ray are using the APU's GPU for commercial media which creates DRM vulnerabilities. Sometime around 2010 when OpenGL was chosen to support Browsers and Browsers were proposed as the Desktop UI (The PS4 has a WebGL Desktop.), Microsoft stated that there were overflow vulnerabilities allowing hackers to crack routines in GPU memory and allow access to the OS; thus the name Fail Overflow below. AMD sometime around 2010 started adding ARM Trustzone as a security processor to APUs and dGPUs. The ARM Tee in AMD APUs and Playready 3 is the answer to these DRM vulnerabilities but it's not used yet.

Edit:
h.264 video for game streaming or remote gaming travels over a 4 wire PCIe from the APU to Southbridge then out the LAN port. Netflix at this time is treated as a APU game and does not use any of the Trustzone features. Blue ray player also does not use Trustzone (@ 34:00) as the video stream is treated just like a Game from the GPU.

This is the 2008 GPU DRM for Blue Ray seen in Vista where video is HDCP encrypted in the GPU not the HDMI chip:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.anandtech.com/show/2622/2

The problem is that the movie studios wanted a way of securing the content between the time the AACS was decrypted and the HDCP encryption took over. Once the AACS was decrypted the encoded movie was sitting in main memory and could be intercepted by any other application, so something had to be done.

The solution was to re-encrypt the data once it was pulled off the disc (I'm not kidding). This time the encryption would be done by the application and decrypted by the GPU itself, creating a protected path that couldn't easily be compromised.

The graphics driver would be able to pass along the encrypted data to the GPU, which would then decrypt and decode it in hardware and then the entire framebuffer would be HDCP encrypted by the GPU before sending it out over DVI/HDMI.
This means game HDR is handled by the APU but HDMI 2.0a negotiation is still forwarded to the APU either through the Southbridge or directly from HDMI to APU.

A move to HTML5 <video> with embedded DRM (MSE EME) be it Playready or whatever will mean a change in Netflix for instance. It will use APIs from the Trustzone block and only the UI will be created in the APU. HDCP 2.2 is already in the Southbridge TEE used for Miracast and Playready 3 so for Media DRM we will see a modern DRM as I have been describing. For HD and UHD Mode media, DRM requires AACS or Playready encrypted will enter the Southbridge TEE and exit as HDCP 2.2 over a PCIe to the Custom Panasonic HDMI chip with HD + HDR the same. This is a DRM requirement in part because the HDMI pins are exposed.

How do we know this change using a TEE is coming? Sony calls the 2013 PS4 UHD capable and the intellectual notice has Playready 3 listed, both require a TEE for DRM media. Note: 2016 power tests for Media show 80 watts for the 2013 PS4 and 50 watts for the 2016 PS4 Slim (Page 12). This is media being processed by the GPU. 2017 tests should have the Southbridge TEE finally used.

Sony UHD players both high end and mass market are coming March 2017 which is when the PS4 4.5 semi annual Firmware update (6 months March-April to September-October) happens. The first PC third party UHD Blu-ray player releases April 17. Google is going to refuse to upload Flash video in favor of HTML5 <video> in April also.



RE: Embedded DRM/HTML5 <video> MSE EME and why it may not have been implemented yet

1) Playready is listed in the 2013 PS4 Intellectual notice, it's the embedded Playready 3 as Playready 2.5 is a part of the APP and not included in the platforms OS. This line in the Intellectual notice confirms it's Playready 3. "If the device fails to properly enforce restrictions on content usage, content owners may require Microsoft to revoke the device's ability to consume PlayReady-protected content." If an APP fails to protect content you disable or remove the APP, if the Device fails you revoke the device and all APPs that rely on the embedded DRM fail to work. Playready 3 is going to be required for 1080P and is required for 4k media DRM.

Currently third party apps like Netflix @ 1.13 Gigabyte in size use a DRM embedded in the APP not the device. That would be Playready 2.5 or similar. They do not use the HTML5 <video> MSE EME embedded DRM in the PS4.

2) Playready 3 requires a TEE. According to Cerney, the ARM Trustzone TEE is in Southbridge. Playready 3 requires HDCP 2.2 and Miracast is now implicit as an output which also requires HDCP 2.2. HDCP 2.2 requires TPM 2.0 (Trusted Platform Module hardware and routines). Good PDF on TEE video path with ARM Trustzone.

3) WMDRM is also listed in the PS4 Intellectual notice. It's only use is for DLNA DTCP-IP at resolutions below 1080P. It also has not been used yet.

4) The PS4 HDMI chip is a Panasonic custom design but in pictures of the 2013 and 2015 motherboards, the pins and motherboard traces are exposed. This is not now allowed. The video exiting the Southbridge must be HDCP encrypted rather than HDCP encryption taking place in the HDMI chip. Since in #2 above, the Southbridge Trustzone TEE contains hardware and routines to support HDCP 2.2 and the PS4 has a Custom HDMI chip, it's possible to support HDMI 2.0 with a software update. HDMI 2.0 requires HDCP 2.2 but HDCP 2.2 was not mapped to a HDMI port till early 2013 thus everyone assumed the PS4 released in 2013 could not support a HDMI 2.0 port. It turns out that in a Source player it is cheaper and more DRM secure to HDCP 2.2 encrypt in the TEE rather than the HDMI chip.

4a) Sony calls all PS4s UHD capable in the efficientgaming.eu website

This has been partially confirmed, All PS4s support HDR which for games does not require DRM, it just requires the negotiation of a HDMI 2.0a port which could be limited to 1080P as HDR is independent of resolution but does require Progressive output (480P, 720P, 1080P). HDR for media takes place in the TEE, HDR for games must be added by GPU routines. In all cases including HDCP for HDMI, negotiation must be passed to the TEE and then for game HDR and resolution decisions, provided to the APU.

5) A Software developer is releasing a game @ 1080P 60FPS with HDR which requires a Level A HDMI port spec which can support greater than 1080P @ 60 Hz, possibly 4k... we do not know yet.

6) Playready 3 has not been used by any third party app and the current PS4 media player does not support DRM including DTCP-IP for DLNA. WHY?

If you follow the PC and Windows 10, TPM 2.0 was in the 2015 summer update and TPM 2.0 is not backwardly compatible. 4K and HTML5 <video> embedded (MSE EME) depends on embedded DRM and parts of those embedded routines are part of the Playready 3 porting kit which all modern DRM can use. My cite for the PC having a UHD Blu-ray player April 2017 means all DRM including Playready 3 will be ready for use, at least on PCs, before that date. It is easier to support TPM 2.0 and Playready 3 on a Game Console and the day after the TPM 2.0 Windows 10 update, the XB1 S was able to support UHD Blu-ray.

Here is the speculation part, Sony is waiting for Vidipath to firmware update the PS4.

1) Sony and Panasonic in UHD Blu-ray PDFs wants to support a UHD Blu-ray digital bridge which requires Playready ND for 1080P and 4K in home media streaming. Microsoft in Playready ND papers mentions Live and DVR streams. These are likely Vidipath streams as Microsoft mentions Playready ND and WMDRM can co-exist and WMDRM is listed in the PS4 Intellectual notice.
2) Sony in 2015 PDFs to the FCC DSTAC has a PS3 receiving Vidipath streamed from a cable box and a Picture of a PS3 labeled PS4 receiving a cable TV stream from a Cable Modem Gateway. Cites show this is coming with the move to all IPTV which requires DOCSIS 3.1 and Comcast is expecting to have 15 million homes with this by the end of 2017. Current X1 DVRs can support Vidipath and with IPTV delivered from a Cable Modem the Cable DVR is at the Cable TV plant.
3) Antenna TV ATSC 3.0 after the Tuner is a codec compressed IPTV stream and requires DRM. It's just like a Cable TV or UHD Blu-ray digital bridge stream.

Finally, the list of Playready 3 supporters includes every Cable TV and Hardware manufacturer. If all platforms use HTML5 and a common DRM (Playready 3) then all video runs through the Playready routines when being played by the HTML5 player so all get parsed for DRM headers and are managed properly. In the home network Vidipath (DLNA + Playready) relies on a Playready common domain so in home all platforms that support Playready can share the media coming from a Cable modem, DVR, UHD Blu-ray player or Antenna TV.

Key here is that all platforms must support Playready 3 for this to work. The wait is for EVERYONE to support HTML5 <video> MSE EME and Playready 3. There is no Vidipath Client at this time but Comcast and other Cable companies have been supporting Vidipath since July 2015 as required by the FCC .

Sony was in no hurry to release a UHD Blu-ray player and this puzzled everyone. Sony has not implemented UHD Blu-ray on any PS4 and this puzzled everyone. What could be the reason, 1 or 2 below?

1) UHD Blu-ray coming to a PS4 with a firmware update? (Should have happened when the XB1 S got it)
2) UHD Blu-ray supplied to PS4s from a UHD Blu-ray player with digital bridge on the home network? Possibly down-converted from 4K to HD + HDR for older PS4s?

Open Source Software used in PlayStation®4

Last edited by jeff_rigby; 02-02-2017 at 05:13 AM.
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post #293 of 298 Old 01-20-2017, 06:15 AM
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Rigby has a tendency to pollute all threads he touches with speculation presented as fact. After he was banned on NeoGAF, he's moved here it seems.
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post #294 of 298 Old 01-21-2017, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
Sony was in no hurry to release a UHD Blu-ray player and this puzzled everyone. Sony has not implemented UHD Blu-ray on any PS4 and this puzzled everyone. What could be the reason, 1 or 2 below?

1) UHD Blu-ray coming to a PS4 with a firmware update? (Should have happened when the XB1 S got it)
2) UHD Blu-ray supplied to PS4s from a UHD Blu-ray player with digital bridge on the home network? Possibly down-converted from 4K to HD + HDR for older PS4s?
Neither? Your first point has certainly been said to be impossible by a number of people at Sony.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but this is the scenario you're pitching as Sony's master plan:

1) Someone's home has an Ultra HD Blu-ray player in it, presumably connected to a UHD TV.
2) That same person's home also has a PS4 / PS4 Pro in it that is not connected to that same UHD TV.
3) Sony's goal all along has been to limit the functionality of the PS4 / PS4 Pro so that users can watch their UHD BDs in a lower quality form on other displays in their homes, including HD + HDR displays that aren't actually on the market yet. These are people seemingly not interested in the network-agnostic digital copy codes included with so many UHD BDs.
4) Because of this incredibly compelling functionality, Sony sees no need to hurry and get their own UHD BD players (such as the UBP-X800, launching in Spring) on store shelves.

It's a very big world, and I'm sure that someone, somewhere would be interested in that. I cannot imagine it to be a common use case -- certainly not to the point of discouraging Sony from releasing their own standalone players as you suggest.

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post #295 of 298 Old 01-21-2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Since Sony has shown that the PS4 is focused on gaming and not media, I'm not holding my breath for a Dolby Vision update. HDR10 is sufficient for gaming.
Mass Effect: Andromeda has now confirmed PS4 Pro HDR10 support. The PC version will support HDR10 and Dolby Vision.

https://www.masseffect.com/news/mass...laystation-pro

I'm hoping the PC version gives us a better idea of DV's benefits for gaming (which I can't think of any at this time).

I strongly suspect that DV will be included in Project Scorpio, and then the PS4 Pro mkII.
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post #296 of 298 Old 01-21-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner View Post
Neither? Your first point has certainly been said to be impossible by a number of people at Sony.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but this is the scenario you're pitching as Sony's master plan:

1) Someone's home has an Ultra HD Blu-ray player in it, presumably connected to a UHD TV.
2) That same person's home also has a PS4 / PS4 Pro in it that is not connected to that same UHD TV.
3) Sony's goal all along has been to limit the functionality of the PS4 / PS4 Pro so that users can watch their UHD BDs in a lower quality form on other displays in their homes, including HD + HDR displays that aren't actually on the market yet. These are people seemingly not interested in the network-agnostic digital copy codes included with so many UHD BDs.
4) Because of this incredibly compelling functionality, Sony sees no need to hurry and get their own UHD BD players (such as the UBP-X800, launching in Spring) on store shelves.

It's a very big world, and I'm sure that someone, somewhere would be interested in that. I cannot imagine it to be a common use case -- certainly not to the point of discouraging Sony from releasing their own standalone players as you suggest.
1) Sony is not in any hurry because they are waiting for HTML5 and Playready support = Vidipath.
2) Any Sony platform including UHD Blu-ray will share 1080P media with Antenna TV, Cable TV, Ultraviolet, Playstation Store and Games from a PS4 on the home network. Cable BOX not required and all media is available as a IPTV stream including games.

I think we missed the big reason for HD + HDR. Sony has a ton of old movies and programming at lower resolutions and they can upgrade and use/sell them. Since HDMI 1.4's HDCP 1.4 was cracked, Sony wanted some way to force the use of HDCP 2.2 so they have HD + HDR which requires a HDMI 2.0a port.

Yes, a digital bridge for UHD blu-ray does not make sense but neither does Sony not including UHD Blu-ray in the PS4s. Consider the file size of a HD + HDR movie compressed with HEVC. The current issue with a UHD Blu-ray digital bridge is the cost of the Large Hard disk and the converting from 4K to 1080P. HD + HDR does not have these issues. It's a Given the 2013 PS4 has at least a HEVC codec capable of handling HD video, you have said as much. We know Sony calls the 2013 PS4 UHD Capable and it should support HD + HDR streaming from Netflix and a UHD blu-ray player with Hard Disk.

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post #297 of 298 Old 02-22-2017, 10:56 AM
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Does anybody know if Infinity Warfare and/or COD4 Remasters were supposed to get HDR update or not? I tried both but there's nothing in their Video settings but thought at least IW was suppose to be in HDR. Thnx.

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post #298 of 298 Old 02-22-2017, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
Does anybody know if Infinity Warfare and/or COD4 Remasters were supposed to get HDR update or not? I tried both but there's nothing in their Video settings but thought at least IW was suppose to be in HDR. Thnx.
Nope -- no word on those games featuring HDR, so I wouldn't count on it.
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