Will the PS5 be a true 4k UHD? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 03-24-2019, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Will the PS5 be a true 4k UHD?

Will the PS5 have true 4k UHD?
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post #2 of 31 Old 03-25-2019, 06:23 AM
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Maybe.


Playstation group doesn't care about pushing the market of 4K BD discs, if it costs them nothing they will include it.


At time of PS4 Pro launch 4K BD was still costly and Sony was squeezing every dollar it could out of the hardware so it could make a profit, maybe the price for such drives has come down or not, remains to be seen.
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post #3 of 31 Old 03-25-2019, 07:01 AM
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I think his question is about the graphical side of things. Like will it render in 4k natively.

I saw recently 1 or 2 companies dropped their 4k bd players from market. Theres a good chance 4k bd will die soon unless some company really wants to keep it alive for the niche market.
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post #4 of 31 Old 03-25-2019, 01:46 PM
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There are still zillions Dvd's out there. Also a lot of blu-ray's. UHD will be niche for long long time...there will always be some sort of physical stuff offering...as long as people like movies people will buy movies...a free market will always have choice. Important PS5 question is wether or not it will have a physical drive for blu-ray/UHD playback.
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post #5 of 31 Old 03-26-2019, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering if the PS5 will have 4k graphics for the games they make.
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post #6 of 31 Old 03-27-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
There are still zillions Dvd's out there. Also a lot of blu-ray's. UHD will be niche for long long time...there will always be some sort of physical stuff offering...as long as people like movies people will buy movies...a free market will always have choice. Important PS5 question is wether or not it will have a physical drive for blu-ray/UHD playback.
I'm sure it will! There are a lot of gamers who still prefer discs that (IMO) there's no way Sony wouldn't include one. I'm pretty much all digital (except games I've been gifted) on my PS4 but even I'd be disappointed if there was no disc drive.

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post #7 of 31 Old 03-30-2019, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I am asking if the games will be 4k UHD. Not if the PS5 will play 4k movies. Sorry for the mixup.
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post #8 of 31 Old 03-30-2019, 02:51 PM
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The PS4 Pro is already capable of rendering games natively in 4k, but does not require developers to do. FIFA 17 is one game that runs in native 4k. Many games use other techniques like checkerboard rendering to simulate 4k, and much of the time this works so well it's hard to tell the difference.

Here's a quote from Mark Cerny, who designed the PS4 Pro:

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"Requiring all titles to run at 2160p on PS4 Pro makes no more sense than requiring all titles to run at 1080p on the standard PS4," Cerny said. "The titles are going to use the increased graphical power in a number of ways. Some developers will favor quality over resolution, some will favor resolution over quality. We don't want to have any sort of rules that have to be followed."
https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/20/...view-hardware/

Will the PS5 require all titles to run at 2160p? I'd guess no, because Sony will probably continue to allow developers to use the console's horsepower the way they choose. Some developers might opt for a lower resolution in order to increase performance in other areas. The only things we can be sure of is that games will look better on the PS5 than they currently do on the PS4 Pro, and that you will be able to build a gaming PC on which games will look even better, if you're willing to spend the money.
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post #9 of 31 Old 03-30-2019, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice read thank you!
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post #10 of 31 Old 03-30-2019, 04:26 PM
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It might be just my eyesight and/or the 50" 4K TV, but I see no discernible difference between native 4K and well-implemented checkerboard rendering up to 4K.

I've seen the Digital Foundry comparison videos, but while playing a game in motion without anything zoomed in, both look the same to me. YMMV
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post #11 of 31 Old 03-30-2019, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a 135" screen and projector but im 17 feet away from the screen. I just have 1080p right now not 4k. Im waiting until Redbox has every movie in 4k or until the PS5 comes out with 4k graphics.

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post #12 of 31 Old 03-31-2019, 07:58 PM
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Have you seen this discussion and chart for determining what resolution is needed for a given viewing distance?

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

At the distance you're sitting, you might not be able to tell between 4k and 1080p.
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post #13 of 31 Old 04-12-2019, 06:29 AM
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Background impacting guesses on where Sony is heading: UHD standard supported by ATSC 3.0 and 8K TVs

1) ALL PS4s support UHD standards; HDCP 2.2, HDR and likely Depthmap 3D with all but the PS4 pro limited by media DRM to 1080P. Coincidentally or not, the new UHD TV standard ATSC 3.0 (2020 with ATSC 1.0 phased out by 2025) will likely be limited to resolutions of 1080P or below due to bandwidth and economics requiring multiple sub channels. Higher resolution media will likely be delivered by the Internet or UHD blu-ray.

2) Sony and AMD are heavily supporting VR. VR and 3D are synergistic with some 2D games supporting depthmaps able to be converted to VR or 3D using the depthmap.

3) Most 8K TVs shipping 2020 will have; a ATSC 3.0 tuner, 8K upscaling and fully support UHD standards including 3D using a depthmap.

Rumors now have a PS5 supporting VR and 8K upscaling. UHD Depthmaps used for 3D and 8K upscaling become dedicated hardware accelerator standards seen in 8K TVs.
With an API for the games depthmap, dedicated accelerator hardware could use the depthmap to create the second 3D frame with no impact on the GPU performance. An 8K hardware accelerator upscaler can be used for Media and games and possibly eliminate the GPU's game Anti-alias overhead.

A new UHD blu-ray generation should be released supporting UHD 3D and 8K. If the PS5 supports AMD's VM security, it could support UHD blu-ray using the game hardware allowing the PS5 to be one of the first UHD 8K/3D players. Samsung and Micron GDDR6 memory slides stress support for 8K and 3D. A standard UHD blu-ray drive can support 8K/3D.

AMD is part of the group supporting the free AV1 codec so I'd guess the PS5 APU will support a AV1 hardware encoder codec for game streaming.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tedseattle
Have you seen this discussion and chart for determining what resolution is needed for a given viewing distance?

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

At the distance you're sitting, you might not be able to tell between 4k and 1080p.
This likely points to 8K TV being about 3D more than 8K
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post #14 of 31 Old 04-12-2019, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RbD7000 View Post
Maybe.


Playstation group doesn't care about pushing the market of 4K BD discs, if it costs them nothing they will include it.


At time of PS4 Pro launch 4K BD was still costly and Sony was squeezing every dollar it could out of the hardware so it could make a profit, maybe the price for such drives has come down or not, remains to be seen.
The major difference between a HD and UHD blu-ray drive is the DRM with HDCP 2.2 required, this requires a new ASIC chip with the rest of the drive complying to the same blu-ray standard. The cost of the UHD blu-ray drive did not impact the cost of the Xbox1's UHD blu-ray support.

The PS4 did not get UHD blu-ray support for two reasons, the custom HDMI chip can not support 4K @ 60 FPS and there was no hardware DRM support for anything above 1080P. The PS4 Pro HDMI chip does support 4K @ 60FPS but there is no hardware DRM support for media above 1080P. The PS4 Pro Netflix 4K app uses obfuscation (software) in addition to the trusted boot (hardware) all PS4s support. This does not comply with UHD blu-ray DRM requirements.
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post #15 of 31 Old 04-12-2019, 11:21 AM
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They are not keeping a 3D chain intact just for 3D movies which is what 3D fans only care about. HDR UHD replaced 3D which is another reason why 3D is done. Also they are not killing 3D and resurrecting it a few years later...that is not going to happen. In 10/20 years from now they might give 3D another try.
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post #16 of 31 Old 04-12-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
They are not keeping a 3D chain intact just for 3D movies which is what 3D fans only care about. HDR UHD replaced 3D which is another reason why 3D is done. Also they are not killing 3D and resurrecting it a few years later...that is not going to happen. In 10/20 years from now they might give 3D another try.

In 10-20 years we will have holographic tv which will make UHD/HDR and certainly 3D a moot point

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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post #17 of 31 Old 04-13-2019, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
They are not keeping a 3D chain intact just for 3D movies which is what 3D fans only care about. HDR UHD replaced 3D which is another reason why 3D is done. Also they are not killing 3D and resurrecting it a few years later...that is not going to happen. In 10/20 years from now they might give 3D another try.
I suspect all PS5 games can support 3D and VR with no impact in 2D @ 60 FPS game size or performance. It should costs developers nothing to support 3D and VR but maybe because of the 120FPS requirement, some draw distance or resolution may be lowered, the same will be needed for high end PS5 games to run on a PS4 in any case so that ability will also be built in to PS5 games.

Is glasses-free 3D really coming to every TV set?
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post #18 of 31 Old 04-13-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
I suspect all PS5 games can support 3D and VR with no impact in 2D @ 60 FPS game size or performance. It should costs developers nothing to support 3D and VR but maybe because of the 120FPS requirement, some draw distance or resolution may be lowered, the same will be needed for high end PS5 games to run on a PS4 in any case so that ability will also be built in to PS5 games.

Is glasses-free 3D really coming to every TV set?
No TV supports 3D no more nor will there 3D TVs in the near future. There do not seem to be a lot of monitors that support 3D. Without plenty 3D TV/Monitor support PS5 3D capability makes no sense.
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post #19 of 31 Old 04-14-2019, 04:19 AM
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No TV supports 3D no more nor will there 3D TVs in the near future. There do not seem to be a lot of monitors that support 3D. Without plenty 3D TV/Monitor support PS5 3D capability makes no sense.
Standards are required and have been in development. UHD has a set of standards that includes VR and 3D, this is why UHD supports a depthmap for IPTV streaming and 8K is delivered over HDMI @ 120FPS with two frames for 4K or less 3D able to fit side by side in a 8K frame. Supporting a depthmap is necessary for UHD Blu-ray 3D but while a depthmap reduces the bandwidth/size for both IPTV and UHD Blu-ray, it requires more processing power thus first generation UHD Blu-ray players did not support it.

A 4K TV is wasted in the average living room as the discernable difference is negligible between 1080P with HDR and 4K with HDR @ 10 feet but you can't support HDR unless you have a UHD 4K TV or better. 8K is doubly a waste beyond a ATSC 3.0 tuner and Quantum dot in high end 8K for improved color and brightness which improves HDR. 3D will be the selling point for 8K, likely every PS4 and definitely every PS5 can support VR and 3D games and media. The current VR interface box used with the PS4s will likely not be needed with a PS5 and PSVR2. LIKELY in your living room you can simultaneously watch a VR players game in 3D on a 8K TV without an interface box and all automatic.

Will all 8K (Future TVs) support UHD 3D? In this site. https://www.avsforum.com/stream-tv-g...e-3d-ces-2018/

For gaming, this Ultra D 3D glassless multi-frame sampling process would create an unacceptably noticeable lag of about 30 milliseconds, according to the Ultra-D representatives. But developers can get past that issue using an SDK that makes it easy to pass in-game depth data in a form the TV can immediately interpret, with no lag. Nvyve Studios Director Adam Simonar, who was on hand to show off "utopian survival horror" game Pamela with Ultra-D integration, said the SDK took just a few hours to fully integrate with the Unity graphics pipeline and a week to fine tune. ** The Unity game engine has been chosen to be a Browser standard and all UHD TVs require a browser to display ATSC 3.0. **

Aside from programming time, developers might also be worried that adding stereoscopic support will come with a significant performance hit. In the past, stereoscopic games often had to lower resolutions or remove graphical details in order to render a distinct view for each eye or to avoid hitting bandwidth caps on the GPU or even the HDMI cable itself. But Sobotta says the Ultra-D SDK doesn't require any noticeable performance compromises—just send a bit of depth data along with the full-resolution 2D image, and the display handles the rest instantly.

StreamTV Networks says it's partnering with major TV brands to bring its technology to market this year, though the first sets will probably come from the Chinese manufacturers that bid the most for the still-limited production capacity ("China loves 3D," Lehman said). The total manufacturing cost for the process is only about 10 percent higher than that for a normal 4K display the same size, according to Lehman, which should limit the retail premium for the technology.

We do not know what Sony is supporting but I suspect some form of 3D is coming with Sony 8K TVs along with a SDK/API to either create a side by side 3D frame from the depthmap or send depthmap data from the game to the TV and have the TV create the second frame.
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post #20 of 31 Old 04-14-2019, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
Standards are required and have been in development. UHD has a set of standards that includes VR and 3D, this is why UHD supports a depthmap for IPTV streaming and 8K is delivered over HDMI @ 120FPS with two frames for 4K or less 3D able to fit side by side in a 8K frame. Supporting a depthmap is necessary for UHD Blu-ray 3D but while a depthmap reduces the bandwidth/size for both IPTV and UHD Blu-ray, it requires more processing power thus first generation UHD Blu-ray players did not support it.

A 4K TV is wasted in the average living room as the discernable difference is negligible between 1080P with HDR and 4K with HDR @ 10 feet but you can't support HDR unless you have a UHD 4K TV or better. 8K is doubly a waste beyond a ATSC 3.0 tuner and Quantum dot in high end 8K for improved color and brightness which improves HDR. 3D will be the selling point for 8K, likely every PS4 and definitely every PS5 can support VR and 3D games and media. The current VR interface box used with the PS4s will likely not be needed with a PS5 and PSVR2. LIKELY in your living room you can simultaneously watch a VR players game in 3D on a 8K TV without an interface box and all automatic.

Will all 8K (Future TVs) support UHD 3D? In this site. https://www.avsforum.com/stream-tv-g...e-3d-ces-2018/

For gaming, this Ultra D 3D glassless multi-frame sampling process would create an unacceptably noticeable lag of about 30 milliseconds, according to the Ultra-D representatives. But developers can get past that issue using an SDK that makes it easy to pass in-game depth data in a form the TV can immediately interpret, with no lag. Nvyve Studios Director Adam Simonar, who was on hand to show off "utopian survival horror" game Pamela with Ultra-D integration, said the SDK took just a few hours to fully integrate with the Unity graphics pipeline and a week to fine tune. ** The Unity game engine has been chosen to be a Browser standard and all UHD TVs require a browser to display ATSC 3.0. **

Aside from programming time, developers might also be worried that adding stereoscopic support will come with a significant performance hit. In the past, stereoscopic games often had to lower resolutions or remove graphical details in order to render a distinct view for each eye or to avoid hitting bandwidth caps on the GPU or even the HDMI cable itself. But Sobotta says the Ultra-D SDK doesn't require any noticeable performance compromises—just send a bit of depth data along with the full-resolution 2D image, and the display handles the rest instantly.

StreamTV Networks says it's partnering with major TV brands to bring its technology to market this year, though the first sets will probably come from the Chinese manufacturers that bid the most for the still-limited production capacity ("China loves 3D," Lehman said). The total manufacturing cost for the process is only about 10 percent higher than that for a normal 4K display the same size, according to Lehman, which should limit the retail premium for the technology.

We do not know what Sony is supporting but I suspect some form of 3D is coming with Sony 8K TVs along with a SDK/API to either create a side by side 3D frame from the depthmap or send depthmap data from the game to the TV and have the TV create the second frame.

You can check the articles and threads. There is not much interest in 3D at the home, it is a niche product, people do not care, that is why TV manufacturers pulled the plug in 2017. No 3D TVs means content will drop at fast rate in fact only thing left is 3D Blu-ray stuff...3D channels are all gone... With little content left it makes no sense for one or a few manufacturers to put 3D capable TVs on the market. It does not matter if it is easy at some point for manufacturers to make TVs 3D capable again. If they do not want to include it it will not be included.

''People want cleaner, sharper, more vibrant pictures, but they don’t want the glasses and they don’t want stuff coming out their screen.''
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You can check the articles and threads. There is not much interest in 3D at the home, it is a niche product, people do not care, that is why TV manufacturers pulled the plug in 2017. No 3D TVs means content will drop at fast rate in fact only thing left is 3D Blu-ray stuff...3D channels are all gone... With little content left it makes no sense for one or a few manufacturers to put 3D capable TVs on the market. It does not matter if it is easy at some point for manufacturers to make TVs 3D capable again. If they do not want to include it it will not be included.

''People want cleaner, sharper, more vibrant pictures, but they don’t want the glasses and they don’t want stuff coming out their screen.''
Do people want VR, will it die too? You may be correct and UHD 3D will be a niche market if 3D is not a standard in all 8K TVs, we shall see. In any case the standards to support UHD 3D appear to be in place and BOE, the largest LCD panel maker on the planet is planning to support 3D in every 8K panel they produce.

Quote:
Having already served as the top panel supplier for smartphone, tablet and notebook applications, BOE Technology has also managed to outrace LG Display to become the world's largest supplier of LCD TV and monitor panels recently, according to a company spokesperson... 2/13/2019
LG is also producing UHD 3D 8K TVs but it is not known how many LG models will support 3D.
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Do people want VR, will it die too? You may be correct and UHD 3D will be a niche market if 3D is not a standard in all 8K TVs, we shall see. In any case the standards to support UHD 3D appear to be in place and BOE, the largest LCD panel maker on the planet is planning to support 3D in every 8K panel they produce.

LG is also producing UHD 3D 8K TVs but it is not known how many LG models will support 3D.
It looks like VR will be mainly for gamers other than that it will be likely niche.

Me and many here on AVS do not believe we will see 3D capable TVs any time soon back on the market. They will shurely give it a try once there is proper working glasses free 3D TV. If it comes back it will highly likely be on a more modest scale with sales talk being focussed on HDR.
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Actually, Sony has revealed that PlayStation 5, among many great specs will have 8K graphics, ray tracing, SSDs, and PS4 backwards compatibility. That is pretty cool.
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Actually, Sony has revealed that PlayStation 5, among many great specs will have 8K graphics, ray tracing, SSDs, and PS4 backwards compatibility. That is pretty cool.
8K, especially native 8K, will be extremely rare on next gen consoles. Even if the GPUs are 12-14 TFLOPS. 8K would eat into that power quick. You won't be doing 8K and ray tracing with any games that are pushing system demanding next gen visuals. Devs most likely will focus on native 4K and possibly, hopefully, more games will hit 60fps. I'm excited for what the next generation of consoles will deliver. The AMD Ryzen Zen 2 CPU alone will bring huge improvements.
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Will the PS5 have true 4k UHD?
Based on what me and a lot of people I work with know regarding hardware, yes.

PS5 will have a 12+ TFLOPS AMD GPU with an 8-core CPU and 16+ GB of RAM.
These are the specs of a modern high-end 4K gaming PC. Very few pieces of hardware, like the 2080Ti, push above this, and then only a bit.

Most PC modern games can push [email protected] with this configuration. New PS5 games will be designed to push it even at the expense of some compromises, like halved shader resolution. It's unlikely that total image upsampling will become a common solution.

That said, it's still a compromise:
8K is only coming for video. It's possible some 2D-style games might do 8K.
Ray tracing is only coming in about the same limited form it's offered by NV RTX cards (reflections and some lightmaps), not as true full-screen RT.
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Spewdom View Post
8K, especially native 8K, will be extremely rare on next gen consoles. Even if the GPUs are 12-14 TFLOPS. 8K would eat into that power quick. You won't be doing 8K and ray tracing with any games that are pushing system demanding next gen visuals. Devs most likely will focus on native 4K and possibly, hopefully, more games will hit 60fps. I'm excited for what the next generation of consoles will deliver. The AMD Ryzen Zen 2 CPU alone will bring huge improvements.

I definitely agree that native 8K will be very hard to achieve. 8K (7680 x 4320 resolution), what works to more or less 33 million pixels is 4 times more than 4K, which equates to about 8 million pixels. I am quite sceptical when it comes to Sony's promises, but even if it delivers, we need to remember that there are not too many 8K TVs affordable for the regular user. As far as I am concerned, most people still play at 1080p.
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post #27 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by daniel peterson View Post
I definitely agree that native 8K will be very hard to achieve. 8K (7680 x 4320 resolution), what works to more or less 33 million pixels is 4 times more than 4K, which equates to about 8 million pixels. I am quite sceptical when it comes to Sony's promises, but even if it delivers, we need to remember that there are not too many 8K TVs affordable for the regular user. As far as I am concerned, most people still play at 1080p.
To my mind it's not 8K but 3D that the PS5 will target and most or all 8K TVs will support 3D. Most games, media and VR will be below 4K in resolution...much of it 1080P or below but as the Ultra D cites support, games just have to create the one 2D frame and send game depthmap which costs the game no additional overhead...it's free 3D.

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Aside from programming time, developers might also be worried that adding stereoscopic support will come with a significant performance hit. In the past, stereoscopic games often had to lower resolutions or remove graphical details in order to render a distinct view for each eye or to avoid hitting bandwidth caps on the GPU or even the HDMI cable itself. But Sobotta says the Ultra-D SDK doesn't require any noticeable performance compromises—just send a bit of depth data along with the full-resolution 2D image, and the display handles the rest instantly.
UHD standards support a depthmap for IPTV 3D and almost all games use a depthmap internally. **8K TVs are supposed to fully support UHD standards, some may not so it's a wait and see.**

I can't stress this enough, it's possible for every PS5 game to support 3D with no additional overhead. VR @ 120FPS for the first frame will cause some games to either implement Foveated rendering or reduce resolution and draw distances. Foveated rendering takes advantage of the QoS reserve CU feature in the post 2016 GPU command processor as does True audio Next and for Media DRM the AMD secure VM.

Last edited by jeff_rigby; 04-20-2019 at 01:37 AM.
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post #28 of 31 Old 04-19-2019, 09:58 PM
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@jeff_rigby , the only thing I am afraid of is that when we get 8K or 3D or even worse, both at the same time, then I would never leave my living room.
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post #29 of 31 Old 04-22-2019, 02:08 PM
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"8K graphics, ray tracing, SSDs,"

.....Unlimited Hugs, Money Tree, Quadruples the Size of your Genetalia......

Seriously, no RGB?

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post #30 of 31 Old 04-25-2019, 07:46 AM
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Stereo 3D (side by side) requires glasses while Automultiscopic is glassless. Current 3D stereo movies can be converted to 3D automultiscopic glassless with the GPU in a Playstation. Current 4K UHD displays can be shipped with a 3D automultiscopic display with 8 views and an HD spatial resolution); I.E. there is a resolution drop -> 8K is better.

Paper on depthmap to multi-view conversion.

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There is a clear need for methods and systems that can convert streaming, high-resolution, stereoscopic video available from the standard delivery channels to high-quality, multiview content in real time. Furthermore, the methods should be amenable to hardware implementations such that they can be incorporated in future streaming TV devices and smart TV sets.

We demonstrate that our method can provide real-time performance both on a GPU and a Field-programmable gate array (FPGA). We evaluate our method on a variety of stereoscopic test scenes and Hollywood movies.

Lagrangian techniques recover depth information First [Brown et al. 2003], and then use re-projection [Mark et al. 1997] to create novel views [Smolic et al. 2008]. Using such an approach, Riechert et al. [2012] and Liao et al. [2013] built systems for real-time stereo-to-multiview conversion, and similar techniques are used in the context of view reprojection for virtual reality.
The UHD standard for IPTV 3D streaming using a depthmap was released as one of the 3D standards with HDMI 1.4. It requires 25% less bandwidth and can more easily support Glassless 3D TVs. In addition nearly all modern games use a depthmap internally. VR uses a depthmap so all modern games should be able to support VR and autostereoscopic MULTIVIEW glassless 3D.

Conversely a Game console designed to support VR should be able to support autostereoscopic multi-view 3D media and games.

In addition the future needs:
1) DVR
2) 8K or 4K upscaling (same hardware needed for Anti-Alias in the Stereo 3D to multi-view 3D conversion and game Anti-alias)
3) video format and resolution conversion up and down to support all the TVs in a home, many that will be HD only

Last edited by jeff_rigby; 04-25-2019 at 08:12 AM.
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