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post #241 of 281 Old 06-19-2020, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TedSeattle View Post
I agree with you personally, but I wonder if Sony cares. The PS4 has sold like hotcakes, and won this generation of the console wars; its weaknesses as a media hub didn't hurt it, while the PS3's strengths as a media hub didn't help it against the XBox 360.

fwiw, The PS3 pretty much caught up and passed the XBox by the end of the cycle, in-spite of the Xbox coming out a year earlier and being cheaper. Microsoft has just really struggled gaining a foothold in the non-US markets.


Personally, I've only occasionally used my PS3 or PS4 for streaming due to the fact it was just quicker, easier, and quieter to use a Smart TV or streaming stick; but my PS3 was my primary Blu-Ray player until UHD came out. Sure would had been nice if the PS4 had supported it. Maybe I would had bought an XBox as a UHD player, but it was compromised.
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post #242 of 281 Old 06-19-2020, 11:30 PM
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I still can't believe that the PS4 can't play a lowly CD. Now that's a head scratcher.
Isn't this because they didn't want to pay the royalties per device?
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post #243 of 281 Old 06-19-2020, 11:31 PM
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Also this thing is huge. It's the size of a human torso.

Spoiler!
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post #244 of 281 Old 06-20-2020, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RafaelSmith View Post
I am torn on the subject of consoles being more than "game" machines. On one hand....i like the fact that they can be UBD players, streamers, etc but on the other hand...I have never used any console I have had for anything other than gaming....except the occasional watching youtube video or something. The fact that my PS4 Pro could not play UHD movies, etc never bothered me...as I have said...the drive in mine has never been used....so I am tempted by the digital version. In fact the only UBD "player" I use a reader on my PC...which I use to rip the movies to media server.
On the other hand, my Xbox one s was purchased as a 4k Blu ray player, then we started getting games for it.

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post #245 of 281 Old 06-20-2020, 11:47 AM
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Yes, I mentioned "Outer Worlds" played well, but even so, I'd be hesitant to call it "couch friendly" given the extra hardware and hoops I had to jump through to play it. Plus I used a PS4 controller and if I remember right, it was prompting me to hit buttons as-if I had something else. For a tech enthusiast ... it's a nice option to have.



I bought an inexpensive copy of the Witcher and Witcher 2 for the PC and they're just really clunky without a keyboard.


The XBox Elite controller is super nice, but it's also super expensive, and the thumbsticks are in the wrong place.
Nvidia shield controller is like a mix between ps4 and Xbox.

Ps4 controller seems to have issues with pc unless you're using remote play app.

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post #246 of 281 Old 06-20-2020, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Karelia View Post
Also this thing is huge. It's the size of a human torso.

Spoiler!
Not the average American torso....lol
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post #247 of 281 Old 06-22-2020, 10:12 PM
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I do hope that Sony add UHD and Atmos playback on the PS5 Disc edition, i'd spend more for it even though i doubt i'd used it for gaming, as i tend to download games over buying the disc.

But watching UHD blu-ray with HDMI 2.1 and uncompressed Atmos will be worth it.
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post #248 of 281 Old 06-22-2020, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bryn23 View Post
I do hope that Sony add UHD and Atmos playback on the PS5 Disc edition, i'd spend more for it even though i doubt i'd used it for gaming, as i tend to download games over buying the disc.

But watching UHD blu-ray with HDMI 2.1 and uncompressed Atmos will be worth it.
It's confirmed that the PS5 will play Ultra HD discs, at the very least you will be able to bitstream Atmos, but I'm sure there'll be support for Dolby MAT as well.
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post #249 of 281 Old 06-22-2020, 11:23 PM
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It's confirmed that the PS5 will play Ultra HD discs, at the very least you will be able to bitstream Atmos, but I'm sure there'll be support for Dolby MAT as well.
It should support Dolby Vision and HDR10 discs as well. Not sure about HDR10+ though. I don't know if Sony is one of Samsung's partners with that format.
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post #250 of 281 Old 06-23-2020, 01:46 AM
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I didn't notice they had announced that they were having UHD playback, that is great to hear.

DV, Atmos and HDR10 is a given if there is playback, i don't think HDR10+ will be available on the PS5, i can't see Sony going to all that trouble for a dead format.


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post #251 of 281 Old 06-23-2020, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Zihuatanejo View Post
Have any of the images released by Sony so far show any of the ports on the back? I'm assuming HDMI, LAN, USB, optical, camera AUX.
I suspect there may be something they are saving for another announcement. It'd be nice if the PSVR2 plugs directly into the console rather than using an external box. I'm interested in seeing what connectors it has as well.
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post #252 of 281 Old 06-29-2020, 12:22 PM
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If I understood Cerny, Sony is designing the PS5 to have a steady heat output, and they will reduce clocks to keep the heat output steady. So, unlike previous consoles which would have to spin up the fan under load, the noise level should be fairly constant. Presumably all that air space is there so they don't have to run small fans at high speeds.

If they had to compromise somewhere to bring this new beast to market, I do think it's better they compromise on the size of the enclosure. Microsoft may very well have a much better designed cooling solution with their mini-tower approach, but as long as the PS5 is quiet and reliable the millions of people buying the launch edition should be happy.

With any luck, Sony went overboard and the launch edition will be the quietest / most reliable PS5 - but that's just something else that'll need to be proven out. The tear downs will be interesting. We'll see if this enclosure was more designed or kludged.

Apparently, I did misunderstand Cerny (or mis-remembered) as a YouTuber (RedGamingTech?) pointed out recently that the PS5 will have steady POWER output rather than steady heat output. Similar, but different in an important way in that if power output is steady, then heat output will be relative to ambient temperature.


Someone running their PS5 in a hot room or an enclosed space may have to deal with more fan noise then someone running their PS5 in the open in a cooled / well ventilated room.


For game developers, this is a big deal because it means as long as Sony's design isn't "fragile" and doesn't overheat in typical conditions, they will have a fixed amount of power available to use as they wish and the only variable will be the workload they put on the system. The system's ability to balance the load on-the-fly ( every 2mS) means the power can even be re-allocated as each video frame is constructed.


On the other hand, this also means a Sony developer might see a slower frame rate as the demand on the CPU goes up. This is why Microsoft feels they have a more developer friendly solution (in this case).
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post #253 of 281 Old 06-30-2020, 03:57 PM
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I think I also watched that same RedGamingTech Youtube video in the last couple of days.
I've been watching more videos from them lately.

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post #254 of 281 Old 07-02-2020, 09:06 AM
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Sony is using AMD SmartShift in the PS5. It takes advantage of the varying computational demand of the CPU and GPU. The lack of load in one component provides power headroom for the other. So it shifts power where it is most needed. But the thermal design is still a bound of the system. Power headroom can only be taken advantage of if thermal headroom is also present.

AMD said SmartShift could boost a system's performance by up to 14%. So far the only released machine to use it is the Dell G5 15 SE. And reviews show promising results, beating similarly spec'd laptops in many benchmarks. It does run hot but I think that's to be expected when the intent is to run at the rev limiter. I'm excited to see how SmartShift performs in the PS5.
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post #255 of 281 Old 07-02-2020, 11:58 AM
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Sony is using AMD SmartShift in the PS5. It takes advantage of the varying computational demand of the CPU and GPU. The lack of load in one component provides power headroom for the other. So it shifts power where it is most needed. But the thermal design is still a bound of the system. Power headroom can only be taken advantage of if thermal headroom is also present.

AMD said SmartShift could boost a system's performance by up to 14%. So far the only released machine to use it is the Dell G5 15 SE. And reviews show promising results, beating similarly spec'd laptops in many benchmarks. It does run hot but I think that's to be expected when the intent is to run at the rev limiter. I'm excited to see how SmartShift performs in the PS5.

Thermal headroom I presume will be provided by the over-sized case and then by increasing the fan speed. So, Sony can design the PS5 to be quiet while outputting peak power within certain bounds. What are those? tbd ...
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post #256 of 281 Old 07-02-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post
Thermal headroom I presume will be provided by the over-sized case and then by increasing the fan speed. So, Sony can design the PS5 to be quiet while outputting peak power within certain bounds. What are those? tbd ...

Based on their track record, thermal acoustics isn't something Sony is known for. But seeing the size of this thing, they might be on to something for the PS5 launch - fingers crossed.
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post #257 of 281 Old 07-02-2020, 12:51 PM
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Not the average American torso....lol
Thank King Corn and Congress, HFCS in everything.

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post #258 of 281 Old 07-02-2020, 01:00 PM
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Based on their track record, thermal acoustics isn't something Sony is known for. But seeing the size of this thing, they might be on to something for the PS5 launch - fingers crossed.

If Sony comes to market with a case that big, that's also loud when playing AAA games, I think they're going to wish they delayed 6 months.
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post #259 of 281 Old 07-02-2020, 01:45 PM
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I just want to see inside the box. With that shape it is a mystery to me what the thermal solution is. I want it to be a big fan making less noise but I don't see where it would fit. And although I think not showing the back was more about the ports. If there's vents then we would know small fast spinning, aka loud, fans are likely.

But I expect something innovative. Maybe axial fans on either side where it widens toward the base? I'm spitballing here 😆
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post #260 of 281 Old 07-02-2020, 02:02 PM
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Based on their track record, thermal acoustics isn't something Sony is known for. But seeing the size of this thing, they might be on to something for the PS5 launch - fingers crossed.
For how gigantic the PS5 console is, it should be pretty quiet. There should be a night and day difference in acoustics between the PS4 Pro and the PS5. Otherwise there is no reason for the enormous size of the PS5.
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post #261 of 281 Old 07-03-2020, 07:47 AM
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I just want to see inside the box. With that shape it is a mystery to me what the thermal solution is. I want it to be a big fan making less noise but I don't see where it would fit. And although I think not showing the back was more about the ports. If there's vents then we would know small fast spinning, aka loud, fans are likely.

But I expect something innovative. Maybe axial fans on either side where it widens toward the base? I'm spitballing here 😆

Good point.



They could use heat pipe technology to pull heat away from critical components to the edges of the case where they blow it out with fan/fans. Perhaps with all the case volume the smaller fan/fans would not need to run very fast (normally).


A traditional tower design has hot-spots where the airflow is not consistent, so, the fans have to run faster to keep everything cooled. An improved design might eliminate those with perhaps heat pipes or by designing the airflow for the specific components..
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post #262 of 281 Old 07-07-2020, 10:47 PM
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Pricing.

Digital $499.99
Disc $599.99
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post #263 of 281 Old 07-07-2020, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by KoRn View Post
Pricing.

Digital $499.99
Disc $599.99
Can you provide a source?
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post #264 of 281 Old 07-08-2020, 04:53 AM
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Pricing.

Digital $499.99
Disc $599.99
Can you provide a source?
His imagination. How does a ~$20 Blu-ray drive save you a hundred bucks?

My guess
$500 with optical drive
$450 digital (Sony can make up difference with extra percentage of PS Store sales vs retail)

But you can throw any price that's around $300-$600 for PS5, PS5 DE, Series X, Lockhart, and be close to, or hit the correct number.
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post #265 of 281 Old 07-08-2020, 05:10 AM
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How does a ~$20 Blu-ray drive save you a hundred bucks?
It won't. But Sony can take a bigger loss on that console because people with the DE are forced
to buy digital versions of the games. And in most cases people will buy them straight from the PS Store.
Which means that Sony gets more money from these purchases.
Furthermore, prices on the PSN usually do not drop that fast compared to the physical versions.

Therefore a 100 USD difference is not even that unrealistic.
Depending on how Microsoft is pricing Lockart/Series S, I could imagine that they will price the DE even
more aggressive.

My guesses are:
PS5: $ 499 | 499 € | £ 449
PS5 DE: $ 399 |399 € | £ 349

Big IF: If Microsoft prices Lockart at around 250 - 299 € I could see Sony dropping the price of
the DE to around $ 349.
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post #266 of 281 Old 07-08-2020, 07:42 AM
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It won't. But Sony can take a bigger loss on that console because people with the DE are forced
to buy digital versions of the games. And in most cases people will buy them straight from the PS Store.
Which means that Sony gets more money from these purchases.
Furthermore, prices on the PSN usually do not drop that fast compared to the physical versions.

Therefore a 100 USD difference is not even that unrealistic.
Depending on how Microsoft is pricing Lockart/Series S, I could imagine that they will price the DE even
more aggressive.

My guesses are:
PS5: $ 499 | 499 € | £ 449
PS5 DE: $ 399 |399 € | £ 349

Big IF: If Microsoft prices Lockart at around 250 - 299 € I could see Sony dropping the price of
the DE to around $ 349.

We might as well ask how could Microsoft price Lockhart that cheap if the only difference is fewer GPU cores in the APU and no Blu-Ray?


PS5 should already have a price (/yield) advantage over the Series X due to requiring fewer functional GPU cores; but the Lockhart APU's could be reduced in cost as they may very well be using the same Series-X APU that failed on 1 or more GPU cores; but I doubt AMD is just giving away their rejected dies. Might be $50 in cost savings?
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post #267 of 281 Old 07-08-2020, 08:07 AM
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We might as well ask how could Microsoft price Lockhart that cheap if the only difference is fewer GPU cores in the APU and no Blu-Ray?

PS5 should already have a price (/yield) advantage over the Series X due to requiring fewer functional GPU cores; but the Lockhart APU's could be reduced in cost as they may very well be using the same Series-X APU that failed on 1 or more GPU cores; but I doubt AMD is just giving away their rejected dies. Might be $50 in cost savings?
I think it is a pretty common practice to use lower-tier CPU/GPU dies.
AMD is doing the same with their Zen Desktop dies. I guess
there is no reason for AMD to not allow Sony or Microsoft to do the same.
In the end AMD can be happy that they sell even more dies.

Luckily we do not have to wait that much longer
for Sony and Microsoft to announce the pricing of their Next-Gen consoles.

Beside that we are still talking about Microsoft. They have the money to sell
their console at a loss.
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post #268 of 281 Old 07-08-2020, 08:33 AM
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I think it is a pretty common practice to use lower-tier CPU/GPU dies.
AMD is doing the same with their Zen Desktop dies. I guess
there is no reason for AMD to not allow Sony or Microsoft to do the same.
In the end AMD can be happy that they sell even more dies.

Luckily we do not have to wait that much longer
for Sony and Microsoft to announce the pricing of their Next-Gen consoles.

Beside that we are still talking about Microsoft. They have the money to sell
their console at a loss.

It depends on yield and volume. It's easier with a standard line because there are far more varieties offered. For instance a chip that won't pass tests at 5GHz may be re-qualified and sold at 4.5GHz. Or if only 6 cores of an 8 core part pass, it can be resold as 6 core part.


AMD could certainly be building a unique die for Lockhart as you suggest, but unless AMD has other customers for the die there are massive up front and tooling costs and reducing the volume of the Series X die increases the cost of that part.


But yes, Microsoft can certainly take a loss on the device and try to make it up with games sales and subscription; but aren't they already dipping in to that well by selling their device at or near cost?


A lot of the markup in a product goes to pay overhead expenses (ie, keeping the lights on, paying R&D/Marketing/Accounting/etc).



Sony apparently isn't gearing up to produce many units in the first year. If they started giving away the PS5, we'd just see eBay'ers buying them up and reselling the box at a markup that Sony could have easily collected in the first place due to their market position.Will we see the same with Lockhart? Watch out if someone figures out a way to run Windows or Linux on it. Giving away hardware tends to create false economies for a product.
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post #269 of 281 Old 07-08-2020, 09:24 AM
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Sony apparently isn't gearing up to produce many units in the first year. If they started giving away the PS5, we'd just see eBay'ers buying them up and reselling the box at a markup that Sony could have easily collected in the first place due to their market position.Will we see the same with Lockhart? Watch out if someone figures out a way to run Windows or Linux on it. Giving away hardware tends to create false economies for a product.

If yields are as low as predicted for this Christmas season, eBay scalpers will be all over this with huge markups -- no matter the MSRP. Anyone who wants a PS5 this year at retail price will need to jump on pre-orders immediately.
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Originally Posted by Spewdom View Post
His imagination. How does a ~$20 Blu-ray drive save you a hundred bucks?

My guess
$500 with optical drive
$450 digital (Sony can make up difference with extra percentage of PS Store sales vs retail)

But you can throw any price that's around $300-$600 for PS5, PS5 DE, Series X, Lockhart, and be close to, or hit the correct number.
?? The price of a component in an electronic device not necessarily have a bearing on what the retail price is. A $20 part is typically not going to be a $20 difference in price. It could be $50, $100 or no difference in price at all.

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