Official Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD Owners Thread / Vs 1.32 DTS-HD MA - Page 301 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9001 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldithomaso View Post

David:

Thank you. While I don't see any present value to the BD 2.0 profile (other than a network connection and easy upgrades) I eventually want to have that in my family room - where the BDP-05 may go for now. The goal is to have a player that does excellent Component Throughput (since that's an option through the 49TXi in addition to HDMI direct to display) and has excellent 7.1 analog out.

So it seems that key pros for the BDP-05 are:

1) the Analog CD playback (via the HDMI/PQLS),
2) as is the pure output for deinterlacing and scaling via the Elite Kuro,
3) longer warranty,
4) much better component output quality, and
5) matching pretty face

vs those pros for the BD-55 from Panasonic:
1) possible better color rendition,
2) faster menus/load times (BD) and chapter breaks (SD-DVD),
3) easy upgrades - with a present DTS-HD 7.1 decoding ability
and
4) better SD-DVD deinterlacing where the output is produced by the player not the display

In some way it's a stop gap for now since I am waiting to see how the BDP-09turns out and if it really really won't have SACD/DVD-A (the of course it's off the list anyway). However if the only real advantage of the Panasonic BD-55 is the SD-DVD deinterlacing then I don't care. I mainly watch 90% BD now and the other 7% is legacy videos I can't get on BD yet and 3% for the kids who visit and want the Disney content not available on BD yet.

When it retires to the 49TXi room it will be supplanted by the 59AVi so DVD performance is only a present consideration.

From what I gather from Ruined I should keep the BDP-05, set it to Pure and let PDP-111FD take the 480i/1080p/i and as needed Deinterlace and scale it instead and not worry about the player DI and Scaling.

I'm concerned about Sillysally's comments as to the video output and "quality" of the picture vs the BD-55 - hence my questions.

I have no intention of using the BDP-05 in a room with a separate scaler so that is not an option (it's only going to be a bedroom/family room unit ever).

Aren't the wolfson DACs in the BDP-05 the same as those in the SC-0x series overall?

P.S. Props to Highdef Bob +1 "give us all your high def"


one more PRO point, the internal DAC of the 51/05 are Wolfson, so when you use it for your 49TX, you'll get a much more beautiful sound than most, if not all, other blu-ray internal decoders.

yes the DACs in BDP-05 is the same as the ones in the SC-05/07 series. So even if you use the Panasonic, you'll get the advantage of Wolfson DACs from your 07, but you'll lose the advantage of PQLS. I didn't believe the importance of PQLS until I listened to it myself... and I don't even use high-end speakers.

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post #9002 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

One last thing about the BD55, it's played every disc I've put in the player without one problem...that says something to me.

It says to me that it was based on a chipset that was released well over a year ago, as opposed to one that was released a few months ago. Obviously authoring houses are more likely to have BD3x/BD5x in their QA benches than the new Pios, and obviously in over a year's time there will be more bugs worked out than in three months.

Also Dave, you failed to use firmware 1.12a in your review which DOES play all the discs you had a problem with just fine. Yet you continue to harp on playability. You know that the latest firmware fixes the issue, yet you still pretend it does not. Funny that.
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post #9003 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 07:12 AM
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How does he know? Does he have the latest firmware??

Personally, I think using an older design is just fine if it makes for reliable playback. For the vast majority of users, 1080P24 from the player to their TV is the main method of use. Also, the majority of users of BD have displays 50" or smaller and any lesser quality scaling, down resing, etc is more academic than problematic. Sometimes, I think us enthusiasts get too mired in the minutia of ideal when few would even know the difference.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #9004 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How does he know? Does he have the latest firmware??

He was offered it, but declined since it was not from Pioneer - which is understandable.

However now several users have it and have reported that it does fix all of those issues. Even if he can't see it with his own eyes, I think that is evidence enough. He has known for a long time now his problems are fixed with new firmware.

Quote:


Personally, I think using an older design is just fine if it makes for reliable playback. For the vast majority of users, 1080P24 from the player to their TV is the main method of use. Also, the majority of users of BD have displays 50" or smaller and any lesser quality scaling, down resing, etc is more academic than problematic. Sometimes, I think us enthusiasts get too mired in the minutia of ideal when few would even know the difference.

I agree that reliable playback is important, perhaps most important. However I also believe that us enthusiasts are able to deal with bugs/quirks/etc, and that often we would prefer to do so than get lower quality... Otherwise everyone would be using mass-manufactured CE products for everything! So, if it has been discovered a problem has been fixed in a new firmware, why repeat the same old inaccurate information over and over and over again - pretending that firmware does not exist? Makes little sense to me...
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post #9005 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 07:38 AM
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Jeff,

It was offered to him several times but he cannot install it unless it comes "officially" form Pioneer.

I though I had made that clear in post #8820 but since it appears you missed it I will repost it and the end of this one, so for those who have just skip the bottom part.

My 51FD playes EVERY disc I have thrown at it without a hiccup

Gianmarco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
One last thing about the BD55, it's played every disc I've put in the player without one problem...that says something to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Also Dave, you failed to use firmware 1.12a in your review which DOES play all the discs you had a problem with just fine. Yet you continue to harp on playability. You know that the latest firmware fixes the issue, yet you still pretend it does not. Funny that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How does he know? Does he have the latest firmware??

Repost
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I have repeatedly said that if 1.12 fixes the problems I found, I would amend the review. People buying the player TODAY have the possibility of facing the same issues I had, BUT, they may very well be fixed with 1.12. All we have is the word of Ruined that they are fixed with the firmware, but when will that firmware be released to the public through official channels?.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

my 2 cents,

I believe the highlighted words (and sentence) to be incorrect and I believe Dave knows that as well but unfortunately after the fw 1.07 debacle Ruined is the only one whom can "officially" say to be beta testing fw 1.12a

Folks here need to savvy up and understand this point. I urge many to read between the lines of some of the posters. IMHO nobody is a cheerleader here and if someone says they have no problems now you may want to listen.

People also need to understand Dave's position. He does not own the palyer, it is the property of Pioneer hence he cannot install any other fw than what Pioneer "officially" gives to him. It is fairly draconian but that is the bottom line. ... Pioneer's player, Pioneer's latest oficial software on it.
Panasonic has done a much better job out of the box and anyone here that thinks otherwise hasn't been paying attention, likewise Pioneer has been trying to rectify some player problems as quick as they can and doing a good job at it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and entitled to express their views and rebuttles here. Nobody forces you to do otherwise (right Jeff ?).

Afterall the player is just a piece of metal, wires, plastic, etc. right? but I also know feelings sometimes run high due to a variety of different reasons, so I urge all to relax a bit more or use the "ignore" function even more..... Rememnber to be polite and as a savvy man use to say... challenge the words, not the poster.

The truth is out there, you just need to dig and poke around. The choice is yours

Gianmarco

.... no current player problems to report here, no internal DTS MA decoding either.
.

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post #9006 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 07:44 AM
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Now see what happens when you go and get an espresso in the middle of answering a post!

I feel this subject has been beaten to death... 100 times over. At least the poor horse got it only once
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post #9007 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 07:54 AM
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Gman,

I'll repeat my answer, too. Your results are inconsequential.

A simple reading of this thread tells differently for a lot of folks. There are problems.. Moreover, these problems were noted by two reviewers at HT magazine and Ultimate AV.

Even Ruined and Peter (SillySally), who are pretty knowledgeable RE: this player, have illustrated such.

There are problems.. You are lucky.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #9008 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:23 AM
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Rented Cloverfield yesterday, played fine with no issues on our 51.
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post #9009 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:25 AM
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Once 1.12 is released & IF it really does solve majority of problems, Dave Vaughn publicly stated he would amend his review.

A reviewer can only review what has been given by the mfg. with the mfg's official FW. In this regard, Dave's & the Home Theater Magazine's reviews are accurate portrayals of the present status of the player.

I don't understand why several are attacking Dave for just writing what he observed & experienced. He may have been offered beta FW by someone here, but he clearly stated Pioneer only offered 1.07 which he used. He reported facts, not hypothesized results. He also cannot claim the player is fixed with 1.12 when he can't test the player in that way, not until Pioneer officially provides it to him for review.

Why continue to criticize a reviewer for reporting facts? There's SO MUCH subjectivity in audio & video reviews to begin with & here we see 2 factual reviews which should be a refreshing change. But since the outcomes don't support the idea that this player is the "best", the messenger is criticized.

Put the criticism where it rightly belongs, ON PIONEER. It's their product, their responsibility, not the reviewers. I would have loved to read how wonderful the player is, since I spent my hard earned $$ on it, too, but it is what it is.

IMO, Dave & HTM have done the public, owners AND even Pioneer a big service & they should not be criticized for it. A poor review should help motivate Pioneer if they want to save their player sales.

Even tho I own a lot of Elite gear, I am not an apologist for Pioneer when they screw up.

ss9001

Steve
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post #9010 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:27 AM
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BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.
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post #9011 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

I hope so... or it's your ass!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #9012 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

Available on the website to download or do we have to request the disk from Pioneer. I only ask as I have imported the 05 to the UK. Thanks
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post #9013 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.


Thanks Ruined !!!

Dana
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post #9014 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post



Now see what happens when you go and get an espresso in the middle of answering a post!

I feel this subject has been beaten to death... 100 times over. At least the poor horse got it only once

Made the mistake of going outside and spending time with family yesterday - 5 pages of posts here!

to summarize them:
  1. Sounds like some other companies make pretty good BD players also.
  2. We all await 1.12+ with 'bated breath.
  3. People that post here are passionate about this stuff.
I do appreciate the many learnings scattered through these pages. A lot of the rest is starting to feel like Night of the Living Dead, though.
And yes, thank you Ruined for the date certain. Given the history here that took some....
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post #9015 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

Thanks Ruined! Great to hear this. Counting down the days....
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post #9016 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

That would be great news!
ss9001

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post #9017 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:50 AM
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I hope so... or it's your ass!

"Ain't" that the truth

Steve
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post #9018 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 08:54 AM
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I'll be downloading this on November 21st at 12:01am. If it's not there, Ruined, it's yo' a$$!!!

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post #9019 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Once 1.12 is released & IF it really does solve majority of problems, Dave Vaughn publicly stated he would amend his review.

A reviewer can only review what has been given by the mfg. with the mfg's official FW. In this regard, Dave's & the Home Theater Magazine's reviews are accurate portrayals of the present status of the player.

I don't understand why several are attacking Dave for just writing what he observed & experienced. He may have been offered beta FW by someone here, but he clearly stated Pioneer only offered 1.07 which he used. He reported facts, not hypothesized results. He also cannot claim the player is fixed with 1.12 when he can't test the player in that way, not until Pioneer officially provides it to him for review.

Why continue to criticize a reviewer for reporting facts? There's SO MUCH subjectivity in audio & video reviews to begin with & here we see 2 factual reviews which should be a refreshing change. But since the outcomes don't support the idea that this player is the "best", the messenger is criticized.

Put the criticism where it rightly belongs, ON PIONEER. It's their product, their responsibility, not the reviewers. I would have loved to read how wonderful the player is, since I spent my hard earned $$ on it, too, but it is what it is.

IMO, Dave & HTM have done the public, owners AND even Pioneer a big service & they should not be criticized for it. A poor review should help motivate Pioneer if they want to save their player sales.

Even tho I own a lot of Elite gear, I am not an apologist for Pioneer when they screw up.

ss9001

+1. In my position, I do not have the funds to simply "buy another player" (which would probably be the Panny 55), and relegate the 05 to another room. My decision to buy this player was based primarily on three things: First, the regular presence and participation of a Pioneer rep (Chris - who I sincerely believe got the raw end of the deal - Thank you if you are out there); second, the reputation held by Pioneer Elite products, and third the fact that my 18 year-old Pioneer Elite LD player still operates like new (never had to be re-aligned, or serviced). I still hold that the build/component quality (yes, even in light of the 1st gen drive - I'm referring primarily to the Wolfsen DACS) trumps everyone else currently available in this price class. The load times are not an issue for me, and the fact that it is not 2.0 is not a liability (indeed, it was a major factor in selecting this player).

Bottom line: Sometimes ignorance is indeed bliss, and if I did not follow the forums (which is absolutely essential for a guinea pig, er, early adopter), I would not be aware of any problems. Thus far the 05 has performed admirably, but now my OCD is working overtime...

Peace... Vader
 

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One sub to rumble them all. One sub to shake them. One sub to humble them all. And in the darkness break them....

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post #9020 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Once 1.12 is released & IF it really does solve majority of problems, Dave Vaughn publicly stated he would amend his review.

A reviewer can only review what has been given by the mfg. with the mfg's official FW. In this regard, Dave's & the Home Theater Magazine's reviews are accurate portrayals of the present status of the player.

I don't understand why several are attacking Dave for just writing what he observed & experienced. He may have been offered beta FW by someone here, but he clearly stated Pioneer only offered 1.07 which he used. He reported facts, not hypothesized results. He also cannot claim the player is fixed with 1.12 when he can't test the player in that way, not until Pioneer officially provides it to him for review.

Why continue to criticize a reviewer for reporting facts? There's SO MUCH subjectivity in audio & video reviews to begin with & here we see 2 factual reviews which should be a refreshing change. But since the outcomes don't support the idea that this player is the "best", the messenger is criticized.

Put the criticism where it rightly belongs, ON PIONEER. It's their product, their responsibility, not the reviewers. I would have loved to read how wonderful the player is, since I spent my hard earned $$ on it, too, but it is what it is.

IMO, Dave & HTM have done the public, owners AND even Pioneer a big service & they should not be criticized for it. A poor review should help motivate Pioneer if they want to save their player sales.

Even tho I own a lot of Elite gear, I am not an apologist for Pioneer when they screw up.

ss9001

Thanks for the kind words.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
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post #9021 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 09:40 AM
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..The cadence problem occurs when de-interlacing the video from 1080i to 1080p, correct?..

I'd like to add a question on this issue -

Would not locking on the proper cadence right away cause or contribute to dropped frames or frame skipping? This is what I saw playing several DVD's on the 05 & would like to know the technical reason or cause.

Thanks
ss9001

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post #9022 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

Wow! Last time someone made statement like this it didn't happen and they disappeared!

I do have a couple questions which may seem silly on the surface, but in light of past events, I think they are reasonable to ask.

1. When you say available to all here, do you mean from Pioneer and not some link someone here provides for those willing to take a chance with an "unofficial" release?

2. Will this be available online on Pioneer's USA site by that date? Or just by mail, therefore most of use would not be able to get it before Thanksgiving.


Thanks again, Ruined, for you continued updates and information. Let's hope you are right and you do not disappear!

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post #9023 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:02 AM
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I hope so... or it's your ass!

Now that is funny
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post #9024 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

Will it be ready for download or for call in to PIO support for a disk? If it will be released for the later, would it be posible to contact Pioneer and pre-order it ahead of time so that it will be shipped out on the 21st.

Personally, I've been trying like a crazy person to obtain version 1.12. Unfortunatley, I have not had any luck. I tried the sales manager of Pioneer for my area, the support expert at my local hifi shop, the Pioneer sales rep at Pioneer (Irvine), etc. I struck out each time. Pioneer really keeps their beta firmware under lock and key except for the few lucky beta testers.

Like many of us, I can't wait for for the new firmware to fix the list of current issues so that I can play the small stack of movies that are currently having problems.
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post #9025 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Once 1.12 is released & IF it really does solve majority of problems, Dave Vaughn publicly stated he would amend his review.

A reviewer can only review what has been given by the mfg. with the mfg's official FW. In this regard, Dave's & the Home Theater Magazine's reviews are accurate portrayals of the present status of the player.

I don't understand why several are attacking Dave for just writing what he observed & experienced. He may have been offered beta FW by someone here, but he clearly stated Pioneer only offered 1.07 which he used. He reported facts, not hypothesized results. He also cannot claim the player is fixed with 1.12 when he can't test the player in that way, not until Pioneer officially provides it to him for review.

Why continue to criticize a reviewer for reporting facts? There's SO MUCH subjectivity in audio & video reviews to begin with & here we see 2 factual reviews which should be a refreshing change. But since the outcomes don't support the idea that this player is the "best", the messenger is criticized.

Put the criticism where it rightly belongs, ON PIONEER. It's their product, their responsibility, not the reviewers. I would have loved to read how wonderful the player is, since I spent my hard earned $$ on it, too, but it is what it is.

IMO, Dave & HTM have done the public, owners AND even Pioneer a big service & they should not be criticized for it. A poor review should help motivate Pioneer if they want to save their player sales.

Even tho I own a lot of Elite gear, I am not an apologist for Pioneer when they screw up.

ss9001

I agree with you that the review was fair and in the end will serve the owners purpose by lighting a fire under Pioneers arse.

But Ruined is NOT criticizing the review, he is criticizing the fact that David and other non owners apparently either think ruined and others are liars. Or that we are just blind apologists for Pioneer. Believe me when I say it is neither.

Why continue to post in this thread about what discs David wasn't able to play when many other owners are clearly telling us that 1.12 clears these problems up. I'm not criticizing Davids review at all, just the fact that he continues to ignore FACTS that are offered by others in this thread that fly in the face of his comments. I understand he didn't load 1.12, don't care either way. The point is others have and it fixes the issues he continues to harp on.

If Dave and non owner Jeff are serious about providing information as opposed to just stirring the pot. They would acknowledge that fact and move on to other issues. Instead, good members of this forum have to feel as though they are being called a liar or worse.

btw....Watched FYEO only yesterday afternoon, no problems at all.

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post #9026 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

Now you tell me.....lol.

I jope for your sake they come through for us. Sounds like some may be at your door with pitcforks and shovels if they don't....

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post #9027 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:21 AM
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Gman,

I'll repeat my answer, too. Your results are inconsequential.

A simple reading of this thread tells differently for a lot of folks. There are problems.. Moreover, these problems were noted by two reviewers at HT magazine and Ultimate AV.

Even Ruined and Peter (SillySally), who are pretty knowledgeable RE: this player, have illustrated such.

There are problems.. You are lucky.

How are Gman's findings inconsequential? He and others make claims about 1.12 and they are inconsequential, why?

One of the many inconsequential things in this thread are just about every one of your non informative, stir the pot up, useless posts. How ironic.

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post #9028 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by LS2JSTS View Post

How are Gman's findings inconsequential? He and others make claims about 1.12 and they are inconsequential, why?

One of the many inconsequential things in this thread are just about every one of your non informative, stir the pot up, useless posts. How ironic.

Got to just ignore him!

I miss the rosewood sides on the old Pioneer Elite equipment!

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post #9029 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

BTW, I have good word that 1.12a or later revision will DEFINITELY be available to all of us here no later than FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21st, 2008 - mark your calendar. This revision fixes all freeze issues brought up in reviews that used older firmware. Just an FYI for those reading along, no need to worry for thanksgiving festivities.

Ruined... two quick questions for you:
1) Have you noticed any improvements to disc loading times over 1.07?
2) Given that this player uses a 1G BD drive, can you provide a "guestimate" for what might be the best disc load speeds could hope for, assuming they've done everything in their power in the FW? Just wonderin'.
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post #9030 of 31035 Old 11-09-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by alerion View Post

to summarize them:
  1. Sounds like some other companies make pretty good BD players also.
  2. We all await 1.12+ with 'bated breath.
  3. People that post here are passionate about this stuff.

Amen to THAT!
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