Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 1360 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #40771 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 07:34 PM
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^ Your 16:9 screen is 1.78. If you play a 1.85 movie, that means that small letter box bars top and bottom are "normal".

Similarly, if you play a 1.66 movie, small pillar box bars left and right are "normal".
--Bob

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post #40772 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 07:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ The best answer here is to get an SD-DVD calibration disc with both 4:3 and 16:9 charts so you can see exactly what is happening with the combination of 16:9 Wide vs Wide Auto and the Zoom modes. (I use the Avia Pro SD-DVD calibration disc set, but alas that is no longer in print.)

If you wan't to retain aspect ratio when playing SD-DVD discs, you should stick with "16:9 Wide Auto". Then add the Full Zoom mode if you find that leaves you with a widescreen image that floats in the middle of the screen (black around all 4 sides).

If you use "16:9 Wide" and then add a Zoom mode you are going to lose some image off the left and right sides, and will likely STILL end up with incorrect aspect ratio of what's left.
--Bob

Whew...


I'm officially lost, lol.


All I know is this -- when my player is left on "16:9 WIDE" and I play non-anamorphic DVDs, the films are rendered with excessive letterboxing to the top and bottom...when I use the player's ZOOM mode, I can "blow up" the image so that it presents PROPERLY in its aspect ratio...in other words, 2.35:1 or 2.40:1 transfers appear CORRECT with smaller letterboxing on top and bottom...


Are you saying this is still cutting information off on these films? It doesn't seem so when I view them...it merely blows the image up so that it's in the proper ratio, albeit with a loss of quality due to the "forced" enhancement...
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post #40773 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 07:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ Your 16:9 screen is 1.78. If you play a 1.85 movie, that means that small letter box bars top and bottom are "normal".

Similarly, if you play a 1.66 movie, small pillar box bars left and right are "normal".
--Bob

Yes, but some overscan must be taking place, thus placing these 1.78/1.85 transfers to fill the screen sans letterboxing...


Either way, that doesn't bother me; I prefer the "filled screen" effect on the "matted" films.
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post #40774 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 07:44 PM
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^ Pay attention to circles in the image. If you've got things right as regards aspect ratio then they will look like circles, not like wide or tall ovals. If they look like ovals then the combination of settings you are using has screwed up aspect ratio.

Next remove the Zoom mode you are using and check out what you see on the very edges of the image -- ALL FOUR edges. Restore the Zoom mode and see if you are losing a portion of the image off the left/right or off the top bottom.

--------------------------

Here's another way to try to get a handle on this. A "scope" movie -- say 2.35 aspect ratio is "wider than wide screen". It is wider (for its height) than your 16:9 display.

If you make any adjustment which enables that scope image to fill the screen top to bottom then you will suffer one or both of the following problems. (1) You've lost image off the edges of the screen, and/or (2) the aspect ratio is screwed up and circles now look like ovals.

It HAS to be this way. A 2.35 image can not "fill" a 1.78 TV frame without one or the other (or both) of those happening.
--Bob

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post #40775 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Yes, but some overscan must be taking place, thus placing these 1.78/1.85 transfers to fill the screen sans letterboxing...


Either way, that doesn't bother me; I prefer the "filled screen" effect on the "matted" films.
Overscan is a sign of bad geometry settings in your display. A properly calibrated 16:9 display will show all 1920x1080 pixels of a 16:9 content image without losing ANY of that due to overscan.

On a calibration disc -- such as "Spears & Munsil v2", Blu-ray, available via the OPPO Digital web store -- you will find charts that let you confirm that ALL of the 1920x1080 pixels are showing. If you are losing pixels off the edge of the screen then something needs to be corrected in your display settings.

By the way, 1.85 movies are not made that way (as opposed to 1.78) due to reliance on display overscan. 1.85 results from the film frame and lens geometry of certain movie camera setups. The same with 1.66 movies.
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post #40776 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ Pay attention to circles in the image. If you've got things right as regards aspect ratio then they will look like circles, not like wide or tall ovals. If they look like ovals then the combination of settings you are using has screwed up aspect ratio.

Next remove the Zoom mode you are using and check out what you see on the very edges of the image -- ALL FOUR edges. Restore the Zoom mode and see if you are losing a portion of the image off the left/right or off the top bottom.

--------------------------

Here's another way to try to get a handle on this. A "scope" movie -- say 2.35 aspect ratio is "wider than wide screen". It is wider (for its height) than your 16:9 display.

If you make any adjustment which enables that scope image to fill the screen top to bottom then you will suffer one or both of the following problems. (1) You've lost image off the edges of the screen, and/or (2) the aspect ratio is screwed up and circles now look like ovals.

It HAS to be this way. A 2.35 image can not "fill" a 1.78 TV frame without one or the other (or both) of those happening.
--Bob

I think, again, there is some misunderstanding going on here (which is understandable for doing this over the Internet, lol) -- I'm not saying 2.35 images FILL MY SCREEN (or that I want them to). I'm saying that when NON-ANAMORPHIC DVDs with this ratio (2.40/2.35) play on my BDP-83, they're presented, originally, as thin strips of image with massive letterboxing to the top and bottom of the image (due to the lack of anamorphic enhancement, I assume). To DEAL WITH THIS, I use the player's zoom function to blow the image up to "FULL," which CORRECTLY places these widescreen films on my screen (with the correct letterboxing areas)...


Now, when I play 1.78 or 1.85 transfers that ARE anamorphic, they fill my screen with no letterboxing (due to overscan, I assume). When I play NON-ANAMORPHIC DVDs with 1.78 or 1.85 transfers, they show up with, again, a bit of excessive letterboxing, which I eliminate by using the zoom function of the player, thus making them fit the screen with no letterboxing (because they're 1.78 or 1.85)...

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post #40777 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 07:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
Overscan is a sign of bad geometry settings in your display. A properly calibrated 16:9 display will show all 1920x1080 pixels of a 16:9 content image without losing ANY of that due to overscan.

On a calibration disc -- such as "Spears & Munsil v2", Blu-ray, available via the OPPO Digital web store -- you will find charts that let you confirm that ALL of the 1920x1080 pixels are showing. If you are losing pixels off the edge of the screen then something needs to be corrected in your display settings.

By the way, 1.85 movies are not made that way (as opposed to 1.78) due to reliance on display overscan. 1.85 results from the film frame and lens geometry of certain movie camera setups. The same with 1.66 movies.
--Bob

Well, regardless of whether there's overscan going on or not, I'm perfectly fine with the "matted" transfers at 1.78 or 1.85 filling my screen; I tested the "oval protocol" with the THX Optimizer pattern for 16:9 televisions and the ovals were not distorted.
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post #40778 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:05 PM
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^ Take a look at the pictures documenting the Zoom modes in the 83 starting on Page 31 of the User Manual. Pay particularly attention to the combinations which cause portions of the image to be lost off the sides of the screen, as well as the combinations that result in incorrect aspect ratio (circles in these pictures look like ovals).

For non-anamorphic SD-DVDs you want to look at the examples of 4:3, SD-DVD content. In your case with Wide (not Wide Auto) and a Zoom mode added.

Again, the only real way to prove to yourself what's going on here is to try this stuff while playing a calibration chart that clearly indicates the edges of a 1920x1080 HD frame (for Blu-ray) or a 720x480 SD frame, in both 4:3 and 16:9 SD format -- 2 separate charts (for SD-DVD).
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post #40779 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:09 PM
 
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I know what I'm trying to say and what I'm attempting to explain, but it's just too difficult via words on forums such as these; for what it's worth, I "blow up" my non-anamorphic DVDs (I don't BUY any more of these unless there's an old title, as I said, that I'm looking for; besides, what studio is making non-anamorphic DVD releases of NEW titles?) with the BDP-83's zoom function so they "appear properly" on my screen with either their correct letterboxing areas (for 2.35 or 2.40 transfers) or without letterboxing (for 1.85 or 1.78 transfers)...


At any rate, I got the Star Trek Blu-ray thing cleared up a little anyway, so that's a start...
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post #40780 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:11 PM
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^ 1.85 is only a little bit different from 1.78 (the shape of your TV). A 1.85 movie, properly displayed, SHOULD have THIN letter box bars top and bottom. If you are not seeing those then something is wrong in your TV setup. Most likely you are losing the edges of the image to overscan in your TV. That's not so bad, except you paid to see all those pixels.

But this is definitely something worth checking. Some 16:9 TVs have truly excessive overscan with some settings. You could be losing quite a few pixels around all 4 edges. Often there's a Picture Size setting you can pick which will show all 1920x1080 pixels. Again, a calibration chart such as from Spears & Munsil will give you definitive proof whether or not your TV is throwing away the edges of your movies.
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post #40781 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ 1.85 is only a little bit different from 1.78 (the shape of your TV).

I understand that. In my last post, I was attempting to explain what I do with non-anamorphic discs.


Quote:
A 1.85 movie, properly displayed, SHOULD have THIN letter box bars top and bottom. If you are not seeing those then something is wrong in your TV setup. Most likely you are losing the edges of the image to overscan in your TV. That's not so bad, except you paid to see all those pixels.

But this is definitely something worth checking. Some 16:9 TVs have truly excessive overscan with some settings. You could be losing quite a few pixels around all 4 edges. Often there's a Picture Size setting you can pick which will show all 1920x1080 pixels. Again, a calibration chart such as from Spears & Munsil will give you definitive proof whether or not your TV is throwing away the edges of your movies.
--bob

To be honest, I don't believe my RPTV has any setting that directly affects this -- in my set's "Screen Setup" menu, I have the "Display Area" set to "Normal," with "Horizontal Size" and other parameters set to "0"...
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post #40782 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:22 PM
 
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Bob,


Here's some interesting information about overscan that I found for MY EXACT Sony SXRD RPTV model...


To further answer your question, No there is not a pixel for pixel(or dot per dot) mode because of the overscan that it always has.


All rear projection displays have overscan (2% to 5% is typical)
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post #40783 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:23 PM
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^ It's still worth checking with a calibration disc. If you have non-defeatable overscan in the TV it might be time to consider a TV upgrade.

Seriously. I've seen 1080p TVs out there which throw away 10% of the image on all 4 sides. That's pretty egregious.
--Bob

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post #40784 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:28 PM
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[Edit: I see that the below question was answered while I was composing my reply.]

^ There's a lot of back and forth here and one of the posts might have answered this already, but what are you using for a display, IntelliVolume?

The one exception that comes to mind to Bob's comments about something being wrong with the TV setup if the thin letterboxes aren't seen on 1.85 movies would be rear projection TV's (such as the Mitsubishi DLP rear projection displays that were discontinued a few years ago) as these have inherent overscan to compensate for the screen and projector not being perfectly aligned. In this case, there's no oddball scaling going on that will mess with the image - pixels are just cropped by the edge of the screen on all 4 sides.

But any other fixed pixel display (plasma, LCD, OLED) should have a display mode that disables any overscan (some of these displays come from the factory with a mode enabled that has a small amount of overscan). When the modes that add overscan are used, the display is actually scaling the image to a slightly higher resolution and then discarding pixels on all 4 sides to get back to the native resolution of the display. This is undesirable as extra processing is involved that can reduce the quality of the image.

But as long as the geometry is correct (circles are circles rather than ovals and squares are squares rather than rectangles), that's the most important consideration. We don't want fat people looking skinny or skinny people looking fat.

Personally, I would hold off on a TV upgrade until the dust settles a bit more on 4K, HDR, and anything else the manufacturers decide to come up with to make their TV's fully compatible with UHD Blurays unless an upgrade is forced by the existing TV failing. I'm using a Mitsubishi RPTV that has non-defeatable overscan and have no plans to replace it for at least another year.

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post #40785 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Bob,


Here's some interesting information about overscan that I found for MY EXACT Sony SXRD RPTV model...


To further answer your question, No there is not a pixel for pixel(or dot per dot) mode because of the overscan that it always has.


All rear projection displays have overscan (2% to 5% is typical)
Actually, in this case overscan doesn't mean you don't have a dot for dot mode; the dots around the edges are just being masked by the screen, but the rest of the pixels are not being scaled to negatively affect the picture quality. Overscan on other display types scales the image at which point, you wouldn't be in a dot for dot mode.
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post #40786 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 09:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
if you play a 1.66 movie, small pillar box bars left and right are "normal"

Indeed; I noticed this when playing A Clockwork Orange on Blu...
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post #40787 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 09:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ It's still worth checking with a calibration disc. If you have non-defeatable overscan in the TV it might be time to consider a TV upgrade.

Seriously. I've seen 1080p TVs out there which throw away 10% of the image on all 4 sides. That's pretty egregious.
--Bob
My circa-2008 Sony SXRD RPTV has been absolutely fine for what we expected of it, which has been watching 1080p Blu-rays and upconverted DVD; we're waiting until we can afford a larger 4K set.

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post #40788 of 41488 Old 01-19-2016, 09:54 PM
 
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[Edit: I see that the below question was answered while I was composing my reply.]

^ There's a lot of back and forth here and one of the posts might have answered this already, but what are you using for a display, IntelliVolume?

Our display, per my signature, is a Sony KDS-50A2020 rear projection set, with a 1080p native resolution (no 1080p/24 support though, so it's running at 1080p/60). Aside from the lamp that only needed to be replaced once (since the in-the-box original), the display has been absolutely flawless. Now, we're beginning to see symptoms of the dreaded yellow stain/blob -- though slightly -- that characterizes the optical block failure common on these SXRD TVs, so we're eyeing a new 4K display just in case, which leads me to this:

Quote:
Personally, I would hold off on a TV upgrade until the dust settles a bit more on 4K, HDR, and anything else the manufacturers decide to come up with to make their TV's fully compatible with UHD Blurays unless an upgrade is forced by the existing TV failing. I'm using a Mitsubishi RPTV that has non-defeatable overscan and have no plans to replace it for at least another year.

Indeed, as I said, we've been eyeballing 4K TVs right now only because our Sony has begun showing slight signs of what MAY be the optical block going -- but, like you with your Mitsubishi, I'd like to hold off until all dust settles on these new 4K sets because we would like to buy into the optical 4K disc format when it arrives. I have been in regular contact with Oppo about the release of their 4K player, and I will be holding out for the arrival of that deck being that I've been so happy with the BDP-83.
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post #40789 of 41488 Old 01-20-2016, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Our display, per my signature, is a Sony KDS-50A2020 rear projection set
FYI, your signature is really difficult to read for those of us who use the AVS dark theme as some of the text is pretty much black on black.
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post #40790 of 41488 Old 01-20-2016, 06:01 AM
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Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
characters look "wide and crunched" a bit on full-screen DVDs...

-- films are supposed to be presented in 2.35 widescreen, but because they're non-anamorphic, they show up on my display with massive black areas on top and bottom, with the main picture looking like a thin "strip" across the center. But, the image isn't "windowboxed" like you describe above -- it's just letterboxed in the center of the screen but with massive black areas to the top and bottom.

This is not right because you are stretching the image horizontally with the forced 16:9 Wide setting, not "16:9 Wide Auto" like Bob said. Letterboxed 4:3 should be a window box before you zoom. If you apply stretch (forced 16:9 Wide setting) and zoom then you are getting the wrong aspect ratio AND cropping the sides.

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Last edited by AVfile; 01-20-2016 at 06:05 AM.
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post #40791 of 41488 Old 01-20-2016, 09:42 AM
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^ What he said. Combos like this can be very easy to get wrong.

If you want to preserve proper Aspect Ratio, START with 16:9 Wide Auto. THEN explore what the Zoom modes do for you. Not all of them will preserve Aspect Ratio, and the ones that do may lose parts of the image off the edges of the screen.
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post #40792 of 41488 Old 01-20-2016, 05:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
FYI, your signature is really difficult to read for those of us who use the AVS dark theme as some of the text is pretty much black on black.

I was not aware of this; at any rate, the model is a KDS-50A2020 SXRD.
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post #40793 of 41488 Old 01-20-2016, 05:24 PM
 
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This is not right because you are stretching the image horizontally with the forced 16:9 Wide setting, not "16:9 Wide Auto" like Bob said. Letterboxed 4:3 should be a window box before you zoom. If you apply stretch (forced 16:9 Wide setting) and zoom then you are getting the wrong aspect ratio AND cropping the sides.

It truly doesn't seem this way when I watch the "blown up" non-anamorphic DVDs -- I know what many of these films are supposed to look like, and what information is stored on the very left and right of the frame, and when I blow them up with the player's zoom mode to "Full," all it does is reduce the extreme letterboxing black areas and make the film's image seem "normal"...I don't notice anything being cropped on the sides.


The picture quality takes a big hit, usually, with pretty aggressive aliasing and shimmering, when I zoom the non-anamorphic discs, but this could be because there are inherent issues in the mastering in the first place; I had always assumed it was because of the "forced anamorphic" treatment doing the zoom thing...
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post #40794 of 41488 Old 01-20-2016, 09:45 PM
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Java blocking on some Bluray discs notwithstanding, IIRC the Oppo 83 has a special underscan zoom option to zoom out slightly on material to make the whole image visible on displays that always have overscan.

On a display with overscan, all material is being cropped in some way, so you are missing 5-10% of the actual image.

As for the Java blocking on some Bluray titles, the only simple way around that is to rip them with AnyDVD HD and then create a movie-only BDMV structure on a FAT32 USB drive with ClownBD and the "convert to AVCHD" option set.
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post #40795 of 41488 Old 01-29-2016, 05:11 PM
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Heres a glitch I cant figure out.Im watching a film and I stop the dvd and take it out of the 83.Later when I want to resume watching it I put it back in the 83 and it resumes play from the spot I stopped the dvd at but without sound.I have to stop the playback and open the tray and then close it and dvd will play fine with sound from the same spot.This doesnt happen every time but enough to make me wonder what is going on.Can anyone explain this? Thanks

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post #40796 of 41488 Old 01-29-2016, 08:26 PM
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^Sounds like a handshaking issue of some type.
Perhaps the Oppo is powering on faster than the display or avr, and thus not enough time to process all handshaking before the movie starts.

I would recommend trying a specific boot sequence of your equipment.
Try powering on the tv first, wait for it to fully boot up, then if you are using an avr/processor,
power that on next and also wait for it to fully boot, then power on the player last.
The amount of time you have to wait depends on the equipment since all gear is different and may take shorter or longer to fully boot up.
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post #40797 of 41488 Old 01-30-2016, 08:46 AM
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^ this. I bet that the resume works perfectly if the AVR is left on (as a simple test).

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post #40798 of 41488 Old 01-30-2016, 05:22 PM
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Well I have it set up so one remote button turns on the AVR,TV and finally the 83.Perhaps it goes quick but I do have to open the tray,put in the disc and close it so time is spent here.Next time Im playing something that need a resume I will boot it up as smarty-pants suggested.this never happens when i play a new disc from the beginning,even if i pause it.Only happens if i take the disc out for later playback from a resume position.
Not sure what AVfile means about leaving the AVR on since leaving it on all the time would never be an option.

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post #40799 of 41488 Old 01-30-2016, 05:46 PM
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Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post
Not sure what AVfile means about leaving the AVR on since leaving it on all the time would never be an option.
I said as a test, not all the time. Observe the audio format or mode displayed on the front panel of your AVR while testing various scenarios that work and don't work. Write down the sequence of audio modes that you see and note the ones that exhibit the fault. Is the behaviour different? Is there a pattern that might lead you to suspect a particular mode (DD, DTS, PCM?) that your AVR might be having trouble with?
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Last edited by AVfile; 01-30-2016 at 09:43 PM.
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post #40800 of 41488 Old 01-31-2016, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post
Well I have it set up so one remote button turns on the AVR,TV and finally the 83.Perhaps it goes quick but I do have to open the tray,put in the disc and close it so time is spent here.Next time Im playing something that need a resume I will boot it up as smarty-pants suggested.this never happens when i play a new disc from the beginning,even if i pause it.Only happens if i take the disc out for later playback from a resume position.
Not sure what AVfile means about leaving the AVR on since leaving it on all the time would never be an option.

Matt,


As has been hinted at thus far, Oppo informed me a while back via email conversations that to maximize the handshaking accuracies, you should turn on the TV, then the AVR, switch their inputs and then turn on the BDP-83. I have always done it like this, but I just wanted to pass that bit of info along to you...
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