4K Blu-ray Confirmed for Summer 2015 - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 145 Old 12-24-2014, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
Probably missed something and I'm not sure that I linked the final version of HDCP 2.2. I'm too lazy to go back and look...


If you read this ( https://torrentfreak.com/sony-video-...irates-130703/ ) you'll see Sony's take on HDCP 2.2 requiring an internet connection and they did indeed implement it this way, requiring an internet connection, for their 4K products.


As I said in an earlier post, "The short answer is no one knows for sure since there is no 4K Blu-ray standard nailed down not to mention there are no studio's signed up for content as the format doesn't exist as yet." I think it's wait and see at this point, OTOH, I also think it's safe to say that film studio's are not going to support a higher resolution format without a higher form of content protection. HDCP 2.2 supports a "phone home" requirement and I would expect this requirement will be followed by more studio's than just Sony.
The CTS PDF you linked was indeed the Final version. Or at least the version I downloaded from the link was labeled "Final".

I actually went and hunted down the full Final HDCP 2.2 Spec (which complements that Compliance Test Spec). There wasn't anything in there about external validation either.

I see a lot of "Sony wants" in that old article (3 July 2013), but not a whole lot of "industry has specified". I hope the "Sony wants" stuff got kiboshed in any thoughts about the finalized 4K BD spec.

If Sony implements this "4K phone home" crap beyond that one 4K HD-player/device they had, I won't be buying any Sony 4K stuff. And if other OEMs do the same, I won't buy anything from them. I have no idea whether I am in the majority, but I can't imagine the industry didn't learn from the fubar mentioned in that article: the Xbox One needing to be Internet-connected regularly to function, which got nuked post-haste.

I guess we'll know in a few weeks (CES) or months (when the 4K BD spec gets officially published) with presumably industry chiming on whether they intend to leverage additional requirements beyond what is in the spec.

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post #92 of 145 Old 12-24-2014, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by shinksma View Post
The CTS PDF you linked was indeed the Final version. Or at least the version I downloaded from the link was labeled "Final".

I actually went and hunted down the full Final HDCP 2.2 Spec (which complements that Compliance Test Spec). There wasn't anything in there about external validation either.

I see a lot of "Sony wants" in that old article (3 July 2013), but not a whole lot of "industry has specified". I hope the "Sony wants" stuff got kiboshed in any thoughts about the finalized 4K BD spec.

If Sony implements this "4K phone home" crap beyond that one 4K HD-player/device they had, I won't be buying any Sony 4K stuff. And if other OEMs do the same, I won't buy anything from them. I have no idea whether I am in the majority, but I can't imagine the industry didn't learn from the fubar mentioned in that article: the Xbox One needing to be Internet-connected regularly to function, which got nuked post-haste.

I guess we'll know in a few weeks (CES) or months (when the 4K BD spec gets officially published) with presumably industry chiming on whether they intend to leverage additional requirements beyond what is in the spec.

I hear you and I'm not real happy about it either but...


You realize the "Sony wants" are coming from Sony Pictures, the same guys that just got hacked by North Korea or someone else... You don't really think Sony Pictures or any of the other film studios are going to back down from a more robust copy protection scheme for a new format do you?


I see the requirement to have full HDCP 2.2 hardware (authentication requirement) for 4K playback as a bigger problem as it more or less requires a complete replacement of all of ones equipment.
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post #93 of 145 Old 12-24-2014, 07:09 PM
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Sony should butt out of it. It's pretty much abandoning the blu-ray format anyway.
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post #94 of 145 Old 12-24-2014, 07:15 PM
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If and or/when 4k Blu comes out it might not be until 2017-2018 until there are actual titles and movie studio support and even then it may just be upscaled Blu-Ray and not true 4k when the first titles hit.. I still think this a long ways off.. in the meanwhile we will keep enjoying Blu-Ray.. hell, even DVD is still around !!
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post #95 of 145 Old 12-24-2014, 08:55 PM
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End of 2015. Most studios have 4K masters of many titles, especially Sony.

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post #96 of 145 Old 12-25-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by teachsac View Post
End of 2015. Most studios have 4K masters of many titles, especially Sony.
More like a few titles each rather then many. Not counting Universal which I suspect has none. Sooner or later yes there will be 4K BDs, I guess the question is will it be a last gasp or not.
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post #97 of 145 Old 12-25-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wuther View Post
More like a few titles each rather then many. Not counting Universal which I suspect has none. Sooner or later yes there will be 4K BDs, I guess the question is will it be a last gasp or not.
Many is more like it, I think. It isn't unheard of for a Blu-ray to be made from a 4K master. If some movie came from film, of course a 4K master can be made if it doesn't already exist. As soon as there is a working 4K BD standard, I imagine that Hollywood will be re-mastering the inventory that isn't already available/done, in anticipation of the need for discs in the near future.

The exceptions would of course be films that were shot with digital cameras that didn't have the resolution in the first place. If it was shot in 2K/1080p digital, I guess they are just hosed for now. They could scale it and try to pass it off, but hopefully that won't happen. The one upside there would be the availability of the much better/deeper color space, which is frankly more important to me than the extra res anyway. I would actually re-purchase for that alone, if the image warranted it.

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post #98 of 145 Old 12-25-2014, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1 View Post
Many is more like it, I think. It isn't unheard of for a Blu-ray to be made from a 4K master. If some movie came from film, of course a 4K master can be made if it doesn't already exist. As soon as there is a working 4K BD standard, I imagine that Hollywood will be re-mastering the inventory that isn't already available/done, in anticipation of the need for discs in the near future.
You are making a wild assumption. Unless a BD title proclaims to be from a 4k master (which is few) it is pretty darn certain it was from a 2k source. You are really underestimating the cheapness of those releasing BDs many of which use old and ancient DVD masters.
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post #99 of 145 Old 12-26-2014, 08:40 AM
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I wish people would stop focusing on the resolution aspect and start paying more attention to what else will be incorporated. The spec is being overbuilt so that it includes wide color gamut and also high dynamic range, as well as support for higher frame rates. WCG and especially HDR will be far more visually significant than the resolution bump. Rec. 2020 exceeds the P3 digital cinema mastering space, and as displays approach 100% 2020 coverage you will finally be able to reproduce the cyans and dark, saturated colors of film that are outside of even the P3 gamut. You should see what a tropical butterfly looks like in 2020. The color in its wings is stunning. HDR will allow amazing things to be done with new productions in terms of highlight range, and flames especially can look like nothing you have seen before. Even the restoration of old productions will benefit from the improved shadow detail so long as the creatives resist the urge to artificially boost the highlights and overall contrast. The bump to 10-bit and a perceptual transfer curve will also reduce the banding artifacts in smooth gradients (skies and night scenes) that are currently present with 8-bit gamma curves. This standard is revolutionary, but it will take some time to fully mature after it is released. Within the industry both the content creators and the hardware manufacturers will have to learn how to fully utilize and optimize their workflow for it.
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post #100 of 145 Old 12-26-2014, 08:54 AM
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I'll reserve judgment as to what picture parameter improvements wind up being the most visually significant. As we've learned many times in the past, the difference between theory and practice can be wide enough to fly a 747 though.

Without having any content to judge, I think it's prudent to wait.
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post #101 of 145 Old 12-26-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
From the previous article.

"One other factor in this equation is critical, and that’s compression. If you thought that the amount of data required for a feature-length HD film is massive, then the data inherent in a 4K film is four times as great — and far beyond the capacity for storage in an uncompressed format."

The information contained in an image is not proportional to its resolution. A flat white image at 4k contains the same amount of information as a flat white image at HD, standard def, or even just one pixel. It is precisely because of compression that 4K for a well composed image will not require significantly more bandwidth than HD.

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post #102 of 145 Old 12-26-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I'll reserve judgment as to what picture parameter improvements wind up being the most visually significant. As we've learned many times in the past, the difference between theory and practice can be wide enough to fly a 747 though.

Without having any content to judge, I think it's prudent to wait.
I've seen content. Poor practices can screw up anything, and that includes releases on the current technology too.
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post #103 of 145 Old 12-28-2014, 08:14 AM
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I've seen content. Poor practices can screw up anything, and that includes releases on the current technology too.
This is why there is the AVS picture quality forum . Reference Blu-ray catagory all the way to "COAL" which is the worst. Even though it's on "Blu-ray", some of the titles get to heavy handed with DNR, Edge-enhancement, Crushed blacks, Noise etc. I completely agree that some UHD Blu-ray titles will more then likely end up looking only slightly better then 1080p blu-ray. On the other hand there will also be titles that will be outstanding in picture quality as well, having, HDR, Wide Color Gamut, 10bit etc sourced from true 4K masters.
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post #104 of 145 Old 02-26-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
If you bother to read the spec, you'll find it will be necessary (expected) to have an internet connection to play any 4K content from a disc. Your equipment will be checked via internet (phone home) to see if it is valid 4K equipment before keys will be passed to the equipment to allow 4K content access. That means the display, Blu-ray player, receiver, etc.; any thing that connects via HDMI to the source. This check can be preformed continuously and randomly to verify no corruption of the copy protection. Etc., etc., etc...
Looks like DIVIX is going to prevail after all.

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post #105 of 145 Old 02-28-2015, 04:55 AM
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higher resolution blue ray

For those interested in obtaining higher resolution currently, I have a UHD 4k Vizio set plus a S790 Sony player and when using in combination with current blue ray disks, the tv tells me I am getting 2160 pixels vs 1080. I can tell you the detail difference is noticeable, it isn't actual 4k as seen in store demo's, but still eye candy. Just thought a few would appreciate this little tidbit, I have several HD sets and still watch them but all my blu rays I now watch on the Vizio and when more sources become available, this set is ready.
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post #106 of 145 Old 03-18-2015, 05:46 AM
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post #107 of 145 Old 03-18-2015, 07:30 AM
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Digital Copy Part 2?

One of the more interesting optional features reportedly being considered for the spec is called Digital Extension or Digital Bridge. This will allow transferal of a disc’s title to some form of internal memory and then transferring it to an external playback device. Schinasi could not confirm for us if this will be included in the final spec or how it would be implemented, but the idea is to simplify today’s Digital Copy capability for Blu-ray Disc players. As with that system, it will allow studios to decide if or how it is applied.

Interesting - I think for a lot of us if we can't rip our discs, that really hurts the whole concept.
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post #108 of 145 Old 04-22-2015, 10:28 PM
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UHD Bluray Players

As we get closer and closer to the release of UHD Bluray I feel there are a number of questions that are not being answered. And we are also seeing no marketing or any attempt to build any excitement for the upcoming format.

I do not know about any else here but these are some of the things I would love to know!

1. What brands will offer a UHD Bluray player at the end of the year?
2. Will we see Dolby Atmos and DTS-X releases for the new players? And what are the chances of Auro 3D format being offered?
3. Will HDCP 2.2 be mandatory to view UHD Bluray content?
4. What will be the price points that we can expect to see when the players are released?
5. Will UHD content be taken from native 4K content or will we end up getting some 2K upconverted?

It is only about 7 months until UHD Bluray hits the retail shelves unless it is pushed back. My concern is that early UHD TV adapters will get the shaft, something I hope doesn't happen.

What questions do you have about the new upcoming format?

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post #109 of 145 Old 04-23-2015, 03:56 AM
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3. Will HDCP 2.2 be mandatory to view UHD Bluray content?
Yes. Most likely if all devices are not compliant, you will get to watch a 1080p down-res.

Quote:
5. Will UHD content be taken from native 4K content or will we end up getting some 2K upconverted?
Why would anything change? Even if its sourced from a 4K transfer there's no reason to assume they won't screw it up.
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post #110 of 145 Old 04-23-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post
It is only about 7 months until UHD Bluray hits the retail shelves unless it is pushed back. My concern is that early UHD TV adapters will get the shaft, something I hope doesn't happen.

It is definitely going to happen. Almost all current UHD TVs can't support HDCP 2.2 and 18gbps bandwidth on the same port. That's means you can't get copy-protected 4:4:4 video stream.
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post #111 of 145 Old 04-23-2015, 09:17 AM
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post #112 of 145 Old 04-23-2015, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
surprised by the rec2020 - I was under the impression from @scottwilkinson on that rec2020 wasn't going to make it into the spec. I thought they were going to stop at P3.

I'm also confused by the HDR references - is HDR separate from color gamut? I think I'm under educated on that one.

and their "media bridge" option? I don't like it - here's another way that we can restrict and regulate how you choose to use digital versions of our media. Forget it. I want it on an open standard that will play on anything.

but on the whole, very encouraging!! I've been watching the whole 4k scene from afar - big time content is the real missing link. If you tell me SW 7,8,9 will be on UHD Blu-Ray, I'm going to start dropping coins into a piggy bank with the words "4k projector" written on it.
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post #113 of 145 Old 04-23-2015, 10:10 AM
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For now everyone can get the New Pioneer Referenc bluray players

Pioneer BDP-88 and BDP-85 flagship Blu-ray Players

http://youtu.be/Aefi4S5IzOg
NO HDMi 2.0a NO HDCP 2.2 NO 10Bit Color NO HDR for $2000 and still NO Multichannel Audio analog output!

I think I will stick with my Oppo BDP-105 for half the price for now
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post #114 of 145 Old 04-23-2015, 10:14 AM
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Looks like Panasonic will be leading the pack hopefully they put in HDMi 2.0a

It might be worth waiting until the second generation comes out or not if the price is right. Remember the first Blu Ray players they were slow as hell!
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It is definitely going to happen. Almost all current UHD TVs can't support HDCP 2.2 and 18gbps bandwidth on the same port. That's means you can't get copy-protected 4:4:4 video stream.
What makes you think UHD Blurays would even need 18gbps anyway? You can send 24p UHD on HDMI 1.4-era bandwidth ports no problem.

The only reason you'd need more than 10gbps is for high frame rate or 3D. Even 10-bit HDR can be sent over 10gbps if I'm not mistaken.
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post #116 of 145 Old 04-23-2015, 09:58 PM
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NO HDMi 2.0a NO HDCP 2.2 NO 10Bit Color NO HDR for $2000 and still NO Multichannel Audio analog output!

I think I will stick with my Oppo BDP-105 for half the price for now
The only thing this does is upconvert 1080p to UHD and is not a UHD player. It does have ballanced xlr audio outputs which is nice but at 2K I would pass as well, not that it doesn't sound like a really nice bluray player. But I do not blame you for keeping your Oppo at this point since the only reason to upgrade would be for a UHD Bluray player that is a true native UHD player not an up converting player.

Panasonic had a mock demo UHD Bluray at CES this year and it sounds like they will be one of the first ones to have a player hopefully at the end of this year. I would assume that we will see players from Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, LG and maybe Pioneer. I seriously doubt we will see a UHD player from Marantz or Denon till around the middle to end of 2016. I am planing on doing a demo of a Panasonic, Sony or Pioneer if they are in retail stores around Christmas and because I am not crazy about Samsungs bluray players I currently do not see myself owning a Samsung UHD bluray player, they lock up to much IMHO. It would take alot for me to even want and or consider an LG (aka Goldstar or Lucky Goldstar)!

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post #117 of 145 Old 04-26-2015, 11:19 PM
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The one plus in my corner is my Samsung UN55F9000 UHD TV has an external smart hub where the HDMI connections are. So at some point Samsung could come out with a upgrade for the Smart Hub that would include up to date HDMI with HDCP 2.2.

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post #118 of 145 Old 04-27-2015, 04:28 AM
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The one plus in my corner is my Samsung UN55F9000 UHD TV has an external smart hub where the HDMI connections are. So at some point Samsung could come out with a upgrade for the Smart Hub that would include up to date HDMI with HDCP 2.2.

That will never happen. Samsung would rather sell you an entire new TV instead of upgrade a part of it.
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post #119 of 145 Old 04-27-2015, 07:06 AM
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That will never happen. Samsung would rather sell you an entire new TV instead of upgrade a part of it.
Actually, the Samsung SEK3500U One Connect Box will bring multiple upgrades to select 2014 models, including HDMI 2.0a & HDCP 2.2. It is scheduled for release in mid-May.
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post #120 of 145 Old 04-27-2015, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
Actually, the Samsung SEK3500U One Connect Box will bring multiple upgrades to select 2014 models, including HDMI 2.0a & HDCP 2.2. It is scheduled for release in mid-May.
Nice.
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