Pioneer Elite BDP-85FD and BDP-88FD Blu-ray Players at CEDIA 2014 - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 388 Old 09-19-2014, 07:57 PM
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Pioneer has to be smoking some bad crack with these new players. I bought the BDP-09FD when it first came out for $1600 ($2200 MSRP) and since then the BD laser has gone out on me TWICE. First one was fixed under warranty, the second time I didn't even have it fixed. Why? Because chances are, IF Pioneer even had a replacement drive in stock, it would go out AGAIN in less than a year anyway. It is now a $1600 DVD/CD player.

Added on top of that, Pioneer is looking to leave the A/V market altogether. Sorry, not paying $2K for a BD player from a company that's on its way out, ESPECIALLY from a company with a BD track record like Pioneer.

I'd just wait until Oppo releases their 4K player for ~$1K.
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post #92 of 388 Old 09-20-2014, 07:27 AM
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Whatchoo talkin' about, Willis? The most expensive Oppo is $700 cheaper than the 88FD.
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post #93 of 388 Old 09-20-2014, 07:47 AM
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post #94 of 388 Old 09-20-2014, 03:18 PM
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Poineer is done. I still use my 05 FD on rare nites as my Moonraker BD lives in the player. Great pic , but sooooooo slow.

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post #95 of 388 Old 09-20-2014, 04:37 PM
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Man this thread went downhill fast.
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post #96 of 388 Old 09-21-2014, 07:49 AM
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Man this thread went downhill fast.
i was thinking the same thing ... anyway i will be placing my order for the 85-FD as soon as the sets start shipping in late November.

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post #97 of 388 Old 09-21-2014, 08:16 AM
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i was thinking the same thing ... anyway i will be placing my order for the 85-FD as soon as the sets start shipping in late November.
I'm keeping all my options open. I like the specs on these players and they have value IMHO. 4k players are no guarantee XM15 and if so super expensive and buggy
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post #98 of 388 Old 09-22-2014, 02:51 AM
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I've never understood why people who care about picture quality stream when no stream (at least not Internet-based stream) matches the bit rate of Blu from disc.

One of my issues with Oppo is that they seem to spend their time adding so much fluff to their firmware (DLNA, FLAC, gapless streaming, SMB/CIFS, CinemaNow, Netflix, Pandora, Roku, Vudu, YouTube, etc.) that they are sometimes behind the curve when it comes to the players' primary mission of flawlessly playing back Blu-ray discs. I don't care about network whatever, I just want the player to perfectly play discs.

For example, it took well over a year for Oppo to release a fix to be able to play the The Longest Day BD, something my $300 in 2008 Sony BDP-S550 could do.

Don't get me wrong, Oppo is responsive to customers and they do get fixes out, but I've also had far more glitches with operation of my Oppos (first a BDP-95 then a BDP-105) than I ever have with my past Pioneer or Sony players.

I'm in no hurry to replace my BDP-105 with a BDP-88FD, but I'll certainly take a look (and listen) when it hits the street.
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post #99 of 388 Old 09-23-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
I've never understood why people who care about picture quality stream when no stream (at least not Internet-based stream) matches the bit rate of Blu from disc.

One of my issues with Oppo is that they seem to spend their time adding so much fluff to their firmware (DLNA, FLAC, gapless streaming, SMB/CIFS, CinemaNow, Netflix, Pandora, Roku, Vudu, YouTube, etc.) that they are sometimes behind the curve when it comes to the players' primary mission of flawlessly playing back Blu-ray discs. I don't care about network whatever, I just want the player to perfectly play discs.

For example, it took well over a year for Oppo to release a fix to be able to play the The Longest Day BD, something my $300 in 2008 Sony BDP-S550 could do.

Don't get me wrong, Oppo is responsive to customers and they do get fixes out, but I've also had far more glitches with operation of my Oppos (first a BDP-95 then a BDP-105) than I ever have with my past Pioneer or Sony players.

I'm in no hurry to replace my BDP-105 with a BDP-88FD, but I'll certainly take a look (and listen) when it hits the street.

I own and have owned both Oppos, Sonys and Pioneers and they all have had their moments. However, I am more concerned with who takes care of that moment the quickest. There is always a disc or 2 that a bargain basement blu-ray player may play that a $2,000.00 player may not. No manufacturer has exclusivity on a $100.00 player occasionally outperforming a considerably more expensive player. It is just the nature of the beast.

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post #100 of 388 Old 09-26-2014, 08:05 AM
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Im no expert here, but wouldnt the HDMI 2.0 (Pioneer Elite) vs the HDMI 1.4 (Oppo) be better for upscalling 4K with a 3D Blue ray Disc for people with a 4K TV?
Also the cheaper 85FD has the same DAC as the Oppo more expensive 105, but the more expensive 88FD has 4 DACs running in parralel! Does the 105 have the same set-up as the 88FD?
One last thing. I wouldnt compare Pioneers MSRP to the Oppo Price. The last Pioneer Receiver I purchased was a VSX-47TX about 14 or 15 years ago and the MSRP on it was about $3000 and I picked one up for around $1700. Anyone that pays MSRP on a Pioneer hasn't shopped around or is a Best Buy lover.
I'm not favoring Pioneer, but I am just trying to be open minded here. I can tell from a lot of reply's on this forum, and not just this thread, that some people have biased opinions and seem to enjoy bashing other products instead of voicing a more open of factual based opinion.
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post #101 of 388 Old 09-26-2014, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Im no expert here, but wouldnt the HDMI 2.0 (Pioneer Elite) vs the HDMI 1.4 (Oppo) be better for upscalling 4K with a 3D Blue ray Disc for people with a 4K TV?
Also the cheaper 85FD has the same DAC as the Oppo more expensive 105, but the more expensive 88FD has 4 DACs running in parralel! Does the 105 have the same set-up as the 88FD?
One last thing. I wouldnt compare Pioneers MSRP to the Oppo Price. The last Pioneer Receiver I purchased was a VSX-47TX about 14 or 15 years ago and the MSRP on it was about $3000 and I picked one up for around $1700. Anyone that pays MSRP on a Pioneer hasn't shopped around or is a Best Buy lover.
I'm not favoring Pioneer, but I am just trying to be open minded here. I can tell from a lot of reply's on this forum, and not just this thread, that some people have biased opinions and seem to enjoy bashing other products instead of voicing a more open of factual based opinion.
No, HDMI 2.0 in its self will not produce any better result for up-scaling Blu-ray to 4K. HDMI 2.0 supports higher bandwidth than what is available on Blu-ray today. HDMI 2.0 is all about supporting HDCP 2.2 and the higher bandwidth if and when real 4K sources become available. Since these new Pioneer BD player are not 4K sources, it's a moot point. IMHO it's just another manufacture using a new chip-set that is backward compatible to repackage last years technology and sell it as the best new thing.

As for the DAC's, running in duel differential configuration, the duel mode will result in a few dB (guessing 3-4) better signal-to-noise ratio. Not worth the money IMHO as most amplifiers have signal-to-noise ratios that would mask any benefit. The Pioneer spec sheets do not give any stated value for signal-to-noise ratio for either machine so it's an unknown at this point any how. At the typical signal-to-noise level difference all of the mentioned machines operate at (machines that you have mentioned), I would challenge you to tell the difference in signal-to-noise ratio with double blind testing.

People will buy the new machines because they're "Pioneer" and because "it cost more so it must be better" kind of thinking. While that kind of thinking maybe true sometimes, in this case, I think it's money flushed down the drain. With what is available today at or less than $500 I don't know why anyone in there right mind would even consider one of these new Pioneer machines; especially with the possibility of real 4K source machines becoming available in about a year. Heck, a lot of the 4K TV's that are being sold today will not support the new 4K Blu-ray disc players if they are built to the suggested announced specs.




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post #102 of 388 Old 09-26-2014, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post
Pioneer has to be smoking some bad crack with these new players. I bought the BDP-09FD when it first came out for $1600 ($2200 MSRP) and since then the BD laser has gone out on me TWICE. First one was fixed under warranty, the second time I didn't even have it fixed. Why? Because chances are, IF Pioneer even had a replacement drive in stock, it would go out AGAIN in less than a year anyway. It is now a $1600 DVD/CD player.

Added on top of that, Pioneer is looking to leave the A/V market altogether. Sorry, not paying $2K for a BD player from a company that's on its way out, ESPECIALLY from a company with a BD track record like Pioneer.

I'd just wait until Oppo releases their 4K player for ~$1K.
For me I never buy a Pioneer Blu-ray player period.
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post #103 of 388 Old 09-27-2014, 04:09 PM
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I'd want to hear an explanation for what the paint does. Depending upon its weight, thickness or composition, perhaps it does have some special property. But I'd still want an explanation for that one as it did raise an eyebrow.

Both players upscale, yes, but I was focused on the 88. I downloaded the brochures for each and will look them over.
Hey Guys,

Have not been in these forums for quite some time.. I have only played with the BDP-88FD during the Cedia show. Have not had a chance to compare it to my Oppo BDP-105 (Yes I use a BDP-105). The build quality is quite nice and the picture did look very good. (We had it hooked up to a Panasonic 65" 4K TV that accepted 4:4:4 color).

I understand why people are surprised that these players are being launched so late in Blu-ray's life, however in other countries (Japan mainly), our BD player marketshare is quite large and the demand for a high end player is there. I do not expect a large quantity to be sold in the United States, however anyone looking to squeeze every bit of performance out of a Blu-ray, DVD, CD, or high res file the BDP-88FD makes sense. High Resolution audio is very popular in Japan and Europe and the BDP-88FD was designed to be a very high quality source device for these files.

I am currently at LAX Airport on my way to Japan for product planning meetings and to see the 88FD compared directly to the Oppo. I am very curious to see the results as well..

Not trying to sway anyone in any direction. Just giving out some facts...

If you have any specific questions about the players just ask. If I do not know I can ask the engineers..

Also, here is a nice pic of the BDP-88FD (exploded view).

Chris Walker
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post #104 of 388 Old 09-27-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hey Guys,

Have not been in these forums for quite some time.. I have only played with the BDP-88FD during the Cedia show. Have not had a chance to compare it to my Oppo BDP-105 (Yes I use a BDP-105). The build quality is quite nice and the picture did look very good. (We had it hooked up to a Panasonic 65" 4K TV that accepted 4:4:4 color).

I understand why people are surprised that these players are being launched so late in Blu-ray's life, however in other countries (Japan mainly), our BD player marketshare is quite large and the demand for a high end player is there. I do not expect a large quantity to be sold in the United States, however anyone looking to squeeze every bit of performance out of a Blu-ray, DVD, CD, or high res file the BDP-88FD makes sense. High Resolution audio is very popular in Japan and Europe and the BDP-88FD was designed to be a very high quality source device for these files.

I am currently at LAX Airport on my way to Japan for product planning meetings and to see the 88FD compared directly to the Oppo. I am very curious to see the results as well..

Not trying to sway anyone in any direction. Just giving out some facts...

If you have any specific questions about the players just ask. If I do not know I can ask the engineers..

Also, here is a nice pic of the BDP-88FD (exploded view).

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Chris, isn't this already being accomplished today by blu-ray players residing in this price range? The only reasons I see to consider either of these players would be PQLS (if you find value in this feature) if you have a Pioneer receiver to take advantage of this or if you are partial to all things Pioneers like some are.

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post #105 of 388 Old 09-27-2014, 05:16 PM
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I will wait and grab this at a Bestbuy Magnolia on clearance. That is how I got my last blue ray player from Pioneer.
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post #106 of 388 Old 09-28-2014, 03:20 AM
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Hey Guys,

Have not been in these forums for quite some time.. I have only played with the BDP-88FD during the Cedia show. Have not had a chance to compare it to my Oppo BDP-105 (Yes I use a BDP-105). The build quality is quite nice and the picture did look very good. (We had it hooked up to a Panasonic 65" 4K TV that accepted 4:4:4 color).

I understand why people are surprised that these players are being launched so late in Blu-ray's life, however in other countries (Japan mainly), our BD player marketshare is quite large and the demand for a high end player is there. I do not expect a large quantity to be sold in the United States, however anyone looking to squeeze every bit of performance out of a Blu-ray, DVD, CD, or high res file the BDP-88FD makes sense. High Resolution audio is very popular in Japan and Europe and the BDP-88FD was designed to be a very high quality source device for these files.

I am currently at LAX Airport on my way to Japan for product planning meetings and to see the 88FD compared directly to the Oppo. I am very curious to see the results as well..

Not trying to sway anyone in any direction. Just giving out some facts...

If you have any specific questions about the players just ask. If I do not know I can ask the engineers..

Also, here is a nice pic of the BDP-88FD (exploded view).

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Nice inside look. Build quality is always one of my criteria. May I ask why the move to ESS Sabre DACs from Wolfsons?

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post #107 of 388 Old 09-28-2014, 06:09 AM
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Nice inside look. Build quality is always one of my criteria. May I ask why the move to ESS Sabre DACs from Wolfsons?

Not speaking for Walkamo and it will be interesting to see what he has to say. But I would assume it has something to do with the spec's for the ESS ES9018 having a slightly better published signal-to-noise ratio than the Wolfson WM8741. This allows a manufacture to make claims about their product not unlike Pioneer's single information sheets for the new BDP-85FD/88FD. I believe the ESS Sabre has a lower unit price as well (don't quote me) which is always attractive to a manufacturer to lower his unit cost and improve margin.


Nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd and the ESS Sabre seems to have the buzz at the moment in the world of HiFi. Of course the DAC chip is only one ingredient in the recipe and the implementation is everything. That is, it's possible to have a lesser spec'd chip producing better sound due to the ancillary circuit design.
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post #108 of 388 Old 09-28-2014, 06:26 PM
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I've never understood why people who care about picture quality stream when no stream (at least not Internet-based stream) matches the bit rate of Blu from disc.

One of my issues with Oppo is that they seem to spend their time adding so much fluff to their firmware (DLNA, FLAC, gapless streaming, SMB/CIFS, CinemaNow, Netflix, Pandora, Roku, Vudu, YouTube, etc.) that they are sometimes behind the curve when it comes to the players' primary mission of flawlessly playing back Blu-ray discs. I don't care about network whatever, I just want the player to perfectly play discs.

For example, it took well over a year for Oppo to release a fix to be able to play the The Longest Day BD, something my $300 in 2008 Sony BDP-S550 could do.

Don't get me wrong, Oppo is responsive to customers and they do get fixes out, but I've also had far more glitches with operation of my Oppos (first a BDP-95 then a BDP-105) than I ever have with my past Pioneer or Sony players.

I'm in no hurry to replace my BDP-105 with a BDP-88FD, but I'll certainly take a look (and listen) when it hits the street.
Interestingly my only issues with my Oppo 103 was related to Netflix, never had any issues to play any BD's I fed into it. I can't say anything about Pioneer BD player since I never owned , and won't planning to buy these models either. [my PD-54 Elite CD player does go strong after almost 2 decades]

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post #109 of 388 Old 09-29-2014, 06:54 PM
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My BDP-09FD still works amazing never had any issues ....knock on wood the only thing that takes time is the powering on. I look forward to see these players I have been holding out from buying an OPPO so only time will tell if there is an update to 4K not just an up covert player.


So far so good lets just wait until final specs are out and information, high end audio people will pay big bucks for .


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post #110 of 388 Old 09-30-2014, 06:18 AM
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I own and have owned both Oppos, Sonys and Pioneers and they all have had their moments. However, I am more concerned with who takes care of that moment the quickest. There is always a disc or 2 that a bargain basement blu-ray player may play that a $2,000.00 player may not. No manufacturer has exclusivity on a $100.00 player occasionally outperforming a considerably more expensive player. It is just the nature of the beast.
While I certainly know that (I had a Denon DVD-3930CI player and it was often beaten in the playing of random discs category by my Panasonic DVD recorder), I still maintain I've had more Blu-rays come to a stop, have strange effects (a slow down in video processing followed by a fast motion "catch up" a few seconds later), HDMI issues (sound dropouts), refusals to play a disc altogether and other weirdness (not responding to anything but a physical power off) with my BDP-105 than I had with several Sony players (including a first generation BDP-S1.)

I love my Oppo but wish they'd worry less about the apps and streaming features and concentrate on making it the most bullet-proof Blu-ray DISC player available; instead it's more of a multifunction device that plays discs, too.

That's why I'm curious to check out the Pioneer; it looks like they concentrated on disc playback and added streaming features purely as extras.

On a side note, the mention of the Japanese market is interesting, as it's the same reason why Pioneer continued making LD players for years after the American LD market went away.

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post #111 of 388 Old 09-30-2014, 06:25 AM
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My BDP-09FD still works amazing never had any issues ....knock on wood the only thing that takes time is the powering on. I look forward to see these players I have been holding out from buying an OPPO so only time will tell if there is an update to 4K not just an up covert player.


So far so good lets just wait until final specs are out and information, high end audio people will pay big bucks for .


http://www.whathifi.com/news/pioneer...lu-ray-players
Like you i have owned many pioneer players , with much satisfaction , save some issue's with freezing up a couple some times ,on the BDP-62FD ..when streaming media, now to be fair i have never owned an Oppo player and am sure that there are folks out there that have had some issue with the Oppo's as well ,as with every manufacture . i am looking forward to getting the BDP-85FD in . so excited and can hardly wait , i was on the phone with Pioneer last week , to pre-order but was told @ the end October to mid November will my order be ready , with that said i am no ( High-End consumer) so i don't consider this a High-End buy.

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post #112 of 388 Old 09-30-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
I love my Oppo but wish they'd worry less about the apps and streaming features and concentrate on making it the most bullet-proof Blu-ray DISC player available; instead it's more of a multifunction device that plays discs, too.

That's why I'm curious to check out the Pioneer; it looks like they concentrated on disc playback and added streaming features purely as extras.

On a side note, the mention of the Japanese market is interesting, as it's the same reason why Pioneer continued making LD players for years after the American LD market went away.

"wish they'd worry less about the apps and streaming features and concentrate on making it the most bullet-proof Blu-ray DISC player available" I agree with this statement 100%.




"it looks like they concentrated on disc playback and added streaming features purely as extras" Oppo initially focused on disc playback (BDP-83/83SE). However, todays market requires that you offer some type of streaming and apps (especially for music playback at this price point). The fact that Pioneer may offer less features doesn't necessarily mean the disc player will be better than a multi-functional player at disc playback, but only time will tell. I personally could careless about streaming, but I will not give up the ability play back Apple Lossless files (via hard drive or my iPad). There will be nothing special about these players versus current players regardless of how Pioneer markets these player when it comes to disc playback (Blu-ray/DVD). I think they should have offered multi-channel analog and XLR support given their price point and for this omission some (if not many) will pass on these players.


Actually a better purchase would be to purchase an Elite AVR that implements these same Sabre DACs allowing your entire system to benefit from their implementation.


Just my $.02.

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post #113 of 388 Old 09-30-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pioneertop View Post
Like you i have owned many pioneer players , with much satisfaction , save some issue's with freezing up a couple some times ,on the BDP-62FD ..when streaming media, now to be fair i have never owned an Oppo player and am sure that there are folks out there that have had some issue with the Oppo's as well ,as with every manufacture . i am looking forward to getting the BDP-85FD in . so excited and can hardly wait , i was on the phone with Pioneer last week , to pre-order but was told @ the end October to mid November will my order be ready , with that said i am no ( High-End consumer) so i don't consider this a High-End buy.
With BDP-09FD it had 8 Separate Wolfson audio DACS for each analog output running in dual mode as oppose to 4 ESS dacs. This should not matter since I will be getting the SC-89 ES9016+ES9016) for 9.2ch??

I am assuming the ESS has the better sound?? Do you also think the 88FD will also get original Pioneer developed 16-Bit Video processing LSI incorporated into it like the 09FD or does this matter because of Precise Pixel Driver with Triple HD Noise Reduction and better Qdeo™ High-Quality Video Processor??


The 88FD only has 36 Bit deep color support and the 09FD has 48-Bit Deep Color Support what would be the major difference in performance or does the new precise pixel driver help and the new Qdeo video processor?


Just asking people so please be easy on me :-)











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Last edited by whasaaaab; 09-30-2014 at 03:36 PM.
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post #114 of 388 Old 09-30-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
With BDP-09FD it had 8 Separate Wolfson audio DACS for each analog output running in dual mode as oppose to 4 ESS dacs. This should not matter since I will be getting the SC-89 ES9016+ES9016) for 9.2ch??

I am assuming the ESS has the better sound?? Do you also think the 88FD will also get original Pioneer developed 16-Bit Video processing LSI incorporated into it like the 09FD or does this matter because of Precise Pixel Driver with Triple HD Noise Reduction and better Qdeo™ High-Quality Video Processor??


The 88FD only has 36 Bit deep color support and the 09FD has 48-Bit Deep Color Support what would be the major difference in performance or does the new precise pixel driver help and the new Qdeo video processor?


Just asking people so please be easy on me :-)











Since there are no Blu-ray or DVD discs with Deep Color encoding it really doesn't matter, does it?


The 8 Wolfson DAC's in the BDP-09FD were wired in duel mode and preformed as 4.
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post #115 of 388 Old 09-30-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post
"There will be nothing special about these players versus current players regardless of how Pioneer markets these player when it comes to disc playback (Blu-ray/DVD). I think they should have offered multi-channel analog and XLR support given their price point and for this omission some (if not many) will pass on these players.


Actually a better purchase would be to purchase an Elite AVR that implements these same Sabre DACs allowing your entire system to benefit from their implementation.
I would never actually use a receiver - far too many audio compromises - but of note is at least the BDP-88FD has stereo XLR outs, the same as a BDP-105.



The lack of multichannel analog outs is a deal killer for many who would otherwise purchase this as they would a BDP-105 as a surround processor/disc player.
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post #116 of 388 Old 10-01-2014, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
I would never actually use a receiver - far too many audio compromises - but of note is at least the BDP-88FD has stereo XLR outs, the same as a BDP-105.

The lack of multichannel analog outs is a deal killer for many who would otherwise purchase this as they would a BDP-105 as a surround processor/disc player.

I am not sure if the BDP-88FD has volume control on the XLR outs. If not, it cannot be connected directly to an amplifier for two channel listening.


- Rich

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post #117 of 388 Old 10-01-2014, 09:08 AM
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I am not sure if the BDP-88FD has volume control on the XLR outs. If not, it cannot be connected directly to an amplifier for two channel listening.


- Rich
Rich why will you want to connect the BDP-88FD directly to an amplifier ? .

Now its not highlighted in the spec-sheet from pioneer .but most likely it has some form of (out-put gain) adjustment ,also the player was design to be use with a pre-amplifier/ or integrated amp / AVR. Connecting this or any player directly to an amplifier is not what most will recommend anyway .

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post #118 of 388 Old 10-01-2014, 09:38 AM
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Rich why will you want to connect the BDP-88FD directly to an amplifier ? .

Now its not highlighted in the spec-sheet from pioneer .but most likely it has some form of (out-put gain) adjustment ,also the player was design to be use with a pre-amplifier/ or integrated amp / AVR. Connecting this or any player directly to an amplifier is not what most will recommend anyway .
That is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
I would never actually use a receiver - far too many audio compromises - but of note is at least the BDP-88FD has stereo XLR outs, the same as a BDP-105.
The BDP-105(D) has volume control on the XLR and RCA outs which permits use without a preamp.
It works quite well in my system.

- Rich

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post #119 of 388 Old 10-01-2014, 10:10 AM
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That is true.



The BDP-105(D) has volume control on the XLR and RCA outs which permits use without a preamp.
It works quite well in my system.

- Rich
yeah.. it should have some form of OUT-PUT gain control ... by the very nice system you got there i took a peep .
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post #120 of 388 Old 10-02-2014, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
I would never actually use a receiver - far too many audio compromises - but of note is at least the BDP-88FD has stereo XLR outs, the same as a BDP-105.



The lack of multichannel analog outs is a deal killer for many who would otherwise purchase this as they would a BDP-105 as a surround processor/disc player.

Thanks for the photo pointing out the XLR.

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