Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread - Page 130 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3871 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 09:40 AM
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Maybe it would be useful if posters used the 'Quote' button when replying to posts so the original poster receives a notification.

At the same time this would also benefit the rest of us so we can review the conversation in context, without having to wade backwards through prior posts.
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post #3872 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 10:16 AM
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Anybody figure out if there's a way to access the tools option or picture options while watching an app? Really annoying. If you change the user settings during a uhd disc playback, the settings will stick on all content but you can't access it through apps like netlfix or amazon.
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post #3873 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 10:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahro View Post
I'm not a purist. The PQ on many UHD 4K discs looks better to my eye in the 8500 dynamic mode. And as I mentioned above, I'm not a techie, just an old writer.

Not looking for the 'perfect' picture, or even the director's intent. I've known too many directors who've botched their films with intent -- too many think they're auteurs.
I've been using Dynamic Mode.. I wasn't impressed before switching it, after enabling, its very clear that the fidelity of 4K Blu-ray is something very special.. Sicario disc on the EG9600 and X930D quality are both jaw dropping with Dynamic Mode enabled..
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post #3874 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I've been using Dynamic Mode.. I wasn't impressed before switching it, after enabling, its very clear that the fidelity of 4K Blu-ray is something very special.. Sicario disc on the EG9600 and X930D quality are both jaw dropping with Dynamic Mode enabled..

Dynamic makes the picture incorrect though. Many people here, myself included prefer a more correct image...untouched.

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post #3875 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
Dynamic makes the picture incorrect though. Many people here, myself included prefer a more correct image...untouched.
The Standard Mode in our viewing doesn't provide a better standard experience than the OPPO 103D with upscaled Blu-ray.. the colors on the OPPO BD playback presents a higher color fidelity than the Standard Mode 4K disk.. really looks color dull. Not until we activated the Dynamic Mode did the K8500 start to blow anyone away who come by to look at.. Standard Mode on this unit does not present the level of color fidelity you find at a digital IMAX theater presentation, Dynamic Mode does..
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post #3876 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 11:32 AM
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Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread

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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
The Standard Mode in our viewing doesn't provide a better standard experience than the OPPO 103D with upscaled Blu-ray.. the colors on the OPPO BD playback presents a higher color fidelity than the Standard Mode 4K disk.. really looks color dull. Not until we activated the Dynamic Mode did the K8500 start to blow anyone away who come by to look at.. Standard Mode on this unit does not present the level of color fidelity you find at a digital IMAX theater presentation, Dynamic Mode does..

This is totally false information. Dynamic is not and never was and never will be correct. It can be preferred but it is not correct. Any theater is duller than my home viewing experience all the time and I never touch dynamic mode ever. This is because a theater is not projecting at the same brightness levels my tv can and certainly not when viewing HDR. I don't know if Dolby cinema can even rival home HDR in terms of brightness. I have watched movies in a real IMAX, not the fake digital IMAX. I am talking one with a 70mm film projector and it still has better colors and brightness at home.

For anyone trying to get a more correct image(correct doesn't mean preferred) you never use dynamic mode on any devices.

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post #3877 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
The 4K remaster Blu Ray of Fifth Element looks fantastic -- like looking through window. I have my 8500 rez set to 2160, not 1080. If the player is upconverting, it's doing a hell of a job.
Yes it does! I finally gave up on whatever 4k plans Sony has for "catalog" titles and bought this one as much for the Atmos soundtrack (which is impressive) as the video (the old versions weren't the best quality). How can they release something like Pineapple Express on UHD when they have something like Fifth Element on the shelf?!
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post #3878 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
This is totally false information. Dynamic is not and never was and never will be correct. It can be preferred but it is not correct. Any theater is duller than my home viewing experience all the time and I never touch dynamic mode ever. I have watched movies in a real IMAX, not the fake digital IMAX. I am talking one with a 70mm film projector and it still has better colors and brightness at home.

For anyone trying to get a more correct image(correct doesn't mean preferred) you never use dynamic mode on any devices.
I could not agree more.

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post #3879 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 11:41 AM
 
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Folks must remember that Dynamic mode on their TV's is NOT the same as the dynamic setting on the K8500. Let's not get confused in the discussion.
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post #3880 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post
ARC doesn't; but auto lip sync does.

Believe you are missing the point of auto lip sync (implemented with the HDMI 1.3 standard). If both the inputting component and the receiver are HDMI 1.3 or higher, there is no need to manually adjust for audio delay. Audio delay adjustments are notorious for the requirement to tweak. Auto lip sync is automatic, basically "idiot proof", and requires no manual adjustments. Plus, auto lip sync is applicable to ARC. I have no manual adjustments input for display applications or components input directly into the display (all requiring ARC for audio going to the receiver). I have no audio delay issues.
That's not entirely true. The problem with "auto lipsync" is that it can only specify a single value for the device. Most devices (TVs) I've used have different delays depending on the resolution+refresh rate. For instance, here's a table I've calculated for my SEK3500+HU8550:

4k 24Hz : 140ms
4k 60Hz : 40ms
4K 60Hz game mode: 10ms

1080p 24Hz 3D - 180ms
1080p 24Hz - 160ms
1080p 60Hz - 80ms
1080p 60Hz game mode - 20ms

I computed these by adjusting the manual Lipsync value on my receiver while playing these two YouTube video clips. I played the clips from my computer and verified, at least the 60Hz version, with the TV's YouTube app:


HDMI 2.0 supports dynamic auto lipsync, which allows the device to continuously update the value, rather than having a static value for the entire device. I haven't yet come across a device+receiver that supports this yet, but let me know if you know of such devices.
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post #3881 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 12:01 PM
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Except that's not how it works at all. How could a tv just truncate off 2 bits? How does it know the difference between a "fake 12bit" in your world and a real one? If you just say "just grab the first 10 bits" you would get absolute garbage. Go copy the binary values for the ascii characters I just wrote. Remove every 11th and 12th bit, then reconvert it back to letters. Tell me if you get something intelligible. You will get nonsense. You can't just assume some bits are meaningless. What you describe is not doing it "properly" but rather simply doing nothing at all. Color space transformations are very complex algorithms. The device makes "best guesses" to get a better picture. Let me use a different example. If I upscale 1080p to 2160p then back down to 1080p will the picture be the same? No way. The same is true of color space transformations. Much like upscaling doesn't simply double pixels, color space expansion doesn't just add zeros. It changes the bits.
That is how it works, if you strip off the right bits. Obviously, you should strip off the two least significant bits. And it doesn't matter if the original signal is a "fake 12-bit signal" or a real 12-bit signal. The least two significant bits can be truncated off.

So, yes, you can assume that the least significant two bits are "meaningless" if you don't care about or can't handle the extra precision.

Example: Say my player is outputting a 4-bit black and white signal, but the TV only wants a 2-bit black and white signal. The 4-bit signal covers the range 0-15. The 2-bit signal covers the range 0-4. The truncation effectively converts {0,1,2,3} to 0, {4,5,6,7} to 1, {8,9,10,11} to 2, {12,13,14,15} to 3. Since the TV knows it's only handling a 2-bit signal, it will obviously space out the values across the entire range. So, 0 will be 0% brightness, 1 will be 25% brightness, etc. Additionally, if the player wanted to create a "fake 4-bit signal" from a 2-bit source, it would just add two 0's to the end of each binary value, and these would truncate back to the original.

By the way, there's no "color space transformation" happening here, just extra precision in the range of values.

For your second example, if you do simply double the pixels, then you will get exactly the same picture when you downconvert (assuming you downconvert by averaging the four pixels).

Do you really think the player is "upsampling" to 12-bit, instead of just padding with zeros? I highly doubt it's that sophisticated and that it would be of any visible benefit on the current TV sets. From what I can see, the player can't even downsample from 10-bit to 8-bit using dithering, which is of far more value.
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post #3882 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 12:02 PM
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Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread

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Originally Posted by grizzledbiker View Post
Folks must remember that Dynamic mode on their TV's is NOT the same as the dynamic setting on the K8500. Let's not get confused in the discussion.

Both are displaying incorrect color information. Again it's a difference between a preferred picture and a correct picture. Standard on the player may not be 100% correct but it is closer than dynamic is. Ideally you want to output the image from the disc with zero conversion or processing to your display. That way you get the purest image signal possible for your display to work with. Sure people apply all kinds of filters on their high dollar oppo players but that isn't the raw video information. Too bad there is no pure mode like you can set on AVRs for audio signals where there is no processing of the signal.

You can prefer whatever you want to and that's fine but saying things like "the picture looks bad without dynamic mode" or implying that dynamic mode is closer to the theater is nonsense with a properly set up display. It really is messing with things that don't need to be messed with IMO.
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post #3883 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 12:07 PM
 
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The statement wasn't made as a testament to what is to be considered "faithful" or editing room accurate.. It was made to suggest with such capable equipment, using stadard or basic presentations are not exciting enough for some people to justify the need for such capable equipment. Everyone is using a preferred setting (calibration) which from setup to setup is different.. For my taste I want entertainment to look like entertainment, not as if im looking out of a window on a dull rainy day like I feel with HDR induced content.. Sky scenes, lightning, and fire fx shouldn't be the only thing with vivid colors in a HDR presentation.

For me, Dynamic Mode satisfied my taste and reason I used my money to buy 2 units.
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post #3884 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
The statement wasn't made as a testament to what is to be considered "faithful" or editing room accurate.. It was made to suggest with such capable equipment, using stadard or basic presentations are not exciting enough for some people to justify the need for such capable equipment. Everyone is using a preferred setting (calibration) which from setup to setup is different.. For my taste I want entertainment to look like entertainment, not as if im looking out of a window on a dull rainy day like I feel with HDR induced content.. Sky scenes, lightning, and fire fx shouldn't be the only thing with vivid colors in a HDR presentation.

For me, Dynamic Mode satisfied my taste and reason I used my money to buy 2 units.

Well the whole point of higher resolution and HDR IMO is to make things look more like they do for real. Making it overblown a bit is up to you then.

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post #3885 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 12:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
The statement wasn't made as a testament to what is to be considered "faithful" or editing room accurate.. It was made to suggest with such capable equipment, using stadard or basic presentations are not exciting enough for some people to justify the need for such capable equipment. Everyone is using a preferred setting (calibration) which from setup to setup is different.. For my taste I want entertainment to look like entertainment, not as if im looking out of a window on a dull rainy day like I feel with HDR induced content.. Sky scenes, lightning, and fire fx shouldn't be the only thing with vivid colors in a HDR presentation.

For me, Dynamic Mode satisfied my taste and reason I used my money to buy 2 units.

Well the whole point of higher resolution and HDR IMO is to make things look more like they do for real. Making it overblown a bit is up to you then.
When manufacturers intrduced Motionflow "soap opera effect" features, they marketed that also as a way to make things look the way they really are also.. HDR is fantastic, would love it if I could retain the ability to make picture adjustments rather than be forced to a locked-in picture setting.
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post #3886 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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post #3887 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
Problem is it is a 10bit panel and there are no 12bit encoded movies. So you are trying to convert it and then convert it back. That's bad
With that being said, does it really matter whether Deep Color on the player is on or off for a non-Samsung display without HDR but the display is 10-bit with WCG? That's my setup........... I'm asking cause I don't know.

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post #3888 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 02:36 PM
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With that being said, does it really matter whether Deep Color on the player is on or off for a non-Samsung display without HDR but the display is 10-bit with WCG? That's my setup........... I'm asking cause I don't know.

Deep color may introduce banding. If you don't see things like that then no, no difference visually.
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post #3889 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 03:03 PM
 
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I do not recall seeing "deep color" as an option in my HM-5900 Sammy player's menu until a recent update. Which makes me think it's a fairly new to the Sammy players. Question is Sammy's Deep Color the same as the old Sony one? Or just same name but different codec? And why add it to a basic bluray player right before the K8500 was released?

Well according to Samsung, it's been around with them at least since 2013 and is something you want turned on > What is HDMI Deep Colour technology in Samsung Home Theaters ?
http://www.samsung.com/in/support/skp/faq/432832
I just leave it in auto and have no issues with it whatsoever. No arguments here. But this has been and will continue to be highly controversial and discussed like a political debate ad nauseam.

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post #3890 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by grizzledbiker View Post
I do not recall seeing "deep color" as an option in my HM-5900 Sammy player's menu until a recent update. Which makes me think it's a fairly new to the Sammy players. Question is Sammy's Deep Color the same as the old Sony one? Or just same name but different codec? And why add it to a basic bluray player right before the K8500 was released?

Well according to Samsung, it's been around with them at least since 2013 and is something you want turned on > What is HDMI Deep Colour technology in Samsung Home Theaters ?
http://www.samsung.com/in/support/skp/faq/432832
I just leave it in auto and have no issues with it whatsoever. No arguments here. But this has been and will continue to be highly controversial and discussed like a political debate ad nauseam.

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Couple of points to ponder...

1) The BD-K8500 is not listed in the related model inforrmation on the link to the FAQ;

2) But even more significant is that guys with A/V Receivers such as @THEBIGWET that can tell the bit depth of the incoming signal from the player are reporting the following:

  • 10 bit with the K8500's HDMI Deep Color turned OFF
  • 12 bit with the K8500's HDMI Deep Color turned ON
So since our panels are 10 bit, the setting being recommended by just about everyone is to have HDMI Deep Color turned OFF.

This avoids the unnecessary conversion from 12-bit to 10-bit.

Perhaps having HDMI Deep Color turned ON on the players listed in Samsung's FAQ is to take an 8 bit signal and send the panel a 10 bit signal thus the claim to "expand the colours on the display from millions to billions".
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post #3891 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Stanton View Post
Yes it does! I finally gave up on whatever 4k plans Sony has for "catalog" titles and bought this one as much for the Atmos soundtrack (which is impressive) as the video (the old versions weren't the best quality). How can they release something like Pineapple Express on UHD when they have something like Fifth Element on the shelf?!
Because the market is extremely small right now. I can basically guarantee that the Fifth Element will come to UHD at some point. At least based on past history. I can't even count all the versions of the movie I've purchased over the years.
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post #3892 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Couple of points to ponder...

1) The BD-K8500 is not listed in the related model inforrmation on the link to the FAQ;

2) But even more significant is that guys with A/V Receivers such as @THEBIGWET that can tell the bit depth of the incoming signal from the player are reporting the following:

  • 10 bit with the K8500's HDMI Deep Color turned OFF
  • 12 bit with the K8500's HDMI Deep Color turned ON
So since our panels are 10 bit, the setting being recommended by just about everyone is to have HDMI Deep Color turned OFF.

This avoids the unnecessary conversion from 12-bit to 10-bit.

Perhaps having HDMI Deep Color turned ON on the players listed in Samsung's FAQ is to take an 8 bit signal and send the panel a 10 bit signal thus the claim to "expand the colours on the display from millions to billions".
You're definitely on to something. I use HDMI DEEP COLOR with my Mede8er streamer, and never encountered any problems whatsoever with HD BLU-RAY files. With HDMI DEEP COLOR set to OFF in the BDP, the posterization (or "banding") many have noted while watching "The Martian" is gone. This is on a JS8500 with HDMI UHD COLOR set to ON. The DENON S910W reports:
4K:24Hz
BT.2020 YCbCr
10bits
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post #3893 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 05:20 PM
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Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Couple of points to ponder...



1) The BD-K8500 is not listed in the related model inforrmation on the link to the FAQ;



2) But even more significant is that guys with A/V Receivers such as @THEBIGWET that can tell the bit depth of the incoming signal from the player are reporting the following:




  • 10 bit with the K8500's HDMI Deep Color turned OFF

  • 12 bit with the K8500's HDMI Deep Color turned ON


So since our panels are 10 bit, the setting being recommended by just about everyone is to have HDMI Deep Color turned OFF.



This avoids the unnecessary conversion from 12-bit to 10-bit.



Perhaps having HDMI Deep Color turned ON on the players listed in Samsung's FAQ is to take an 8 bit signal and send the panel a 10 bit signal thus the claim to "expand the colours on the display from millions to billions".

I wonder if that statement is accurate. This is a link to samsung site on how to activate hdmi deep color

http://www.samsung.com/us/support/ow...dmi_deep_color

Notice that samsung claims deep color gives you a more accurate color. I wonder if deep color turns on color spectrum rec 2020

I wish that Samsung would provide more information on what deep color does on K8500.


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post #3894 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 05:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
You're definitely on to something. I use HDMI DEEP COLOR with my Mede8er streamer, and never encountered any problems whatsoever with HD BLU-RAY files. With HDMI DEEP COLOR set to OFF in the BDP, the posterization (or "banding") many have noted while watching "The Martian" is gone. This is on a JS8500 with HDMI UHD COLOR set to ON. The DENON S910W reports:
4K:24Hz
BT.2020 YCbCr
10bits
Yet in Samsung's pictures they show significant banding with it off. So whatever. I'm keeping it on Auto until I encounter a visible problem. Then I'll see if turning it off fixes anything. Until then . . my view:


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post #3895 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 05:34 PM
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So are you telling us that playing different videos from your Samsung HU8550+SEK you are experiencing HUGE delay variations on your Onkyo Receiver depending on the resolution and frame rate of the video you are playing from the YouTube app for example...


Quote:
Originally Posted by voyager6868 View Post
That's not entirely true. The problem with "auto lipsync" is that it can only specify a single value for the device. Most devices (TVs) I've used have different delays depending on the resolution+refresh rate. For instance, here's a table I've calculated for my SEK3500+HU8550:

4k 24Hz : 140ms
4k 60Hz : 40ms
4K 60Hz game mode: 10ms

1080p 24Hz 3D - 180ms
1080p 24Hz - 160ms
1080p 60Hz - 80ms
1080p 60Hz game mode - 20ms

I computed these by adjusting the manual Lipsync value on my receiver while playing these two YouTube video clips. I played the clips from my computer and verified, at least the 60Hz version, with the TV's YouTube app...
...while this member who owns a js8500 and a Pioneer Elite AVR is telling us that he is experiencing different delays depending on what app he is using or the format of the video playing (presumably all from the K8500)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by trevrox View Post
Does anyone else have problems with audio delay sometimes? I find that I'm constantly having to change depending on what I'm watching, from Netflix to DVD to Blu-ray to 4K...
To avoid another ARC has nothing to do with it discussion, perhaps a good place to start would be to post in the threads for your particular AVR and hope to find somebody who owns the same brand of TV.

Good luck on finding willing helpers (or a skilled Exorcist perhaps).



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Just say the word and I will post my step-by-step guide on how to setup ARC on the Samsung TV lineup so long as it's OK with @teachsac .
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post #3896 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzledbiker View Post
Yet in Samsung's pictures they show significant banding with it off. So whatever. I'm keeping it on Auto until I encounter a visible problem. Then I'll see if turning it off fixes anything. Until then . . my view:


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I have it OFF and don't get banding. The banding is related to HDMI UHD color and not deep color at all.

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post #3897 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
To avoid another ARC has nothing to do with it discussion, perhaps a good place to start would be to post in the threads for your particular AVR and hope to find somebody who owns the same brand of TV.

Good luck on finding willing helpers (or a skilled Exorcist perhaps).



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Just say the word and I will post my step-by-step guide on how to setup ARC on the Samsung TV lineup so long as it's OK with @teachsac .
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You can post how to set up ARC for those that want to use it. I never use it because lossess audio isn't supported over ARC. If there is a delay with a device, I would rather adjust the input for that device since each input is independent. Luckily I have not experienced it with the 8500. ROKU yes, but is another thread and discussion.

Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself.

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Last edited by teachsac; 03-19-2016 at 06:55 PM.
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post #3898 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post
You can post how to set up ARC for those that want to use it. I never use it because lossess audio isn't supported over ARC.
I have always used it but I make sure to take special care to connect my devices that do support lossless audio directly to my A/V Receiver as shown in my attached Wiring Diagram.

Having ARC (HDMI/CEC) setup correctly can resolve delay issues from internal TV apps that Optical connections can introduce which may be the symptons that one guy is having with his TV's YouTube app.

As for the other guy who is having to set a different delay for each different disc format or app played on his K8500 I suspect that might have something to do with his AVR configuration but what surprises me most is neither of these guys have seeked out help on the thread applicable to their Receiver make and model.

But as I always say, to each their own.

For those that would like to explore setting up ARC on their Samsung TV and A/V Receiver, below is my step-by-step guide but please accept the fact that I am not the Helpdesk (unless you happen to own a Samsung TV along with the Marantz SR7005).


________________________________

How do I set up ARC?

Ensure that you have an HDMI cable running between the ARC port on your A/V Receiver and the HDMI 4 port on your Samsung connect box.

Since all Receivers are different, please refer to the manual that came with yours in order to determine how to enable ARC correctly on it.

The following steps will now describe how to enable ARC on your Samsung TV...

1) Once you have your A/V Receiver configured, go into Menu >> System >> Anynet+ (HDMI-CEC) and turn it On.

2) Now go into Menu >> Sound >> Speaker Settings and change Speaker Select to Receiver. If you missed Step 1 the Receiver option will be greyed out.

3) Next go into Menu >> Sound >> Additional Settings and make sure HDMI Audio Format is set to Bitstream and Audio Format is set to either Dolby Digital or DTS depending on what format is being streamed from the source device.

Note: Since all A/V Receiver manufacturers implement ARC a little differently it is important that you read your manual carefully. For example, my Marantz manual says: To enable the ARC function, set “HDMI Control” to “ON” and refers me to page 77 where the word "ARC" is nowhere to be found. But, if I open my eyes, the words "HDMI Control" are.

If you run into problems, please consider researching and posting your question(s) on the AVS Forum applicable to your particular A/V Receiver.

________________________________________
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Samsung UN78HU9000 & SEK-3500U/ZA - Firmware 1540.3
Samsung UN40HU7000 & SEK-3500U/ZA - Firmware 1540.3
Samsung UBD-K8500 UHD Blu-ray Player; Apple TV 4K
Arris VIP5662W UHD Whole Home DVR; Chromecast Ultra
Marantz SR7005 Receiver; Magnepan Speakers; Martin Logan Subwoofer

Last edited by Musician; 03-19-2016 at 07:18 PM.
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post #3899 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post
I'm confused.

On February 29, you posted in that thread that it would be closed on March 1:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-bl...l#post42013753

March 1 passed and that thread was never closed.

Now you are moving certain posts from this thread into that one...

What is the difference between these two threads and what topics should be discussed there rather than here?

Thank you.

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post #3900 of 14212 Old 03-19-2016, 07:30 PM
 
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OMG! Just watched Expendables 3. A definite must see. Great atmos soundtrack. No banding.

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Last edited by grizzledbiker; 03-19-2016 at 07:35 PM.
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